« first day (2876 days earlier)      last day (2443 days later) » 

19:43
When it comes to axioms are they to be regarded as iff statements just like definitions?
i.e. Axiom of extensionality
@Maximus depends on the phrasing, but usually yes
Hi @Tobias
@MatheinBoulomenos Hi
@Tobias more of a philosophical question, but why would you say that representation theory of groups is so special? Clearly, there seems to be more going on than just for modules over any random ring
This is the phrasing @TobiasKildetoft
19:47
@Maximus then yes, that is an iff
@TobiasKildetoft but then how do you know in general
as in how did you know if it's an iff (I mean of course from experience)
@MatheinBoulomenos Hmm. I don't think I have a good answer to that right now
@Maximus Well, in this case because the other direction needs to hold always
@TobiasKildetoft is it the Hopf algebra structure on the group algebra?
@MatheinBoulomenos Way too tired after finishing up this application. But at least it is now done, and I have all the required stuff for it
How long did the application end up being? (though I imagine the labor is not in the length but in the editing)
19:49
@TobiasKildetoft good luck with the application!
including the letter of support certifying that I am qualified for a position at the assistant professor level (this was a formal requirement for this grant)
@Semiclassical The application is about 10 pages total
And since the committee will not have any mathematicians and no external review will be done, I could not really recycle much from previous applications
@TobiasKildetoft lykke til! ;)
19:52
hmm, notation.
@MatheinBoulomenos hi
@LeakyNun hi
@LeakyNun did you already give the second-years a taste of local Langlands?
suppose I've got a set of discrete random variables $\{X_i\}$. What's a good way to notate the possible values of a given $X_i$?
@Semiclassical isn't that just the image of $X_i$?
(I don't know probability)
sure, but I want to index them
19:57
@MatheinBoulomenos on friday
@MatheinBoulomenos typeset ^
i guess one way would be as $x_i^j$ as the $j$th possible value of $X_i$
@LeakyNun good luck and have fun
@LeakyNun good lord
How did you manage to TeX that?
and then maybe $p_i^j:=\operatorname{Pr}(X_i=x_i^j)$
haven't decided whether I like that or whether it's awful.
@MatheinBoulomenos tikzcd
i could do $p_{i,j}$ i guess
or maybe $p_i(j)$
I guess $p_i(x_j)$ could work, since in my case the $X_i$ all have the same image
20:02
@LeakyNun I still prefer the Yoneda proof :P But it's instructive to get your hands dirty
Hi @Daminark
here's a fun source of confusion.
How's it going?
consider $\mathbf{X}=(X_1,X_2,\cdots,X_n)$ with the $X_i$ being random variables. in that respect, $\mathbf{X}$ is a 'random vector'
@Daminark pretty well thanks. And for you?
on the other hand, we can consider the inner product $\langle X_i,X_j\rangle=\mathbf{E}[X_i X_j]$. the random variables $X_i$ thus serve to generate an inner product space.
20:08
Hi Demonark, Semiclassic, Mathein, Leaky ...
...in which case the $X_i$ are themselves vectors in this space.
none of this is really so strange---it amounts to $\mathbf{X}$ being a vector of vectors---but writing it out is confusing me
Hey Ted!
Semiclassic: Seems like a natural place for double indices, whether one up and one down or both down ... meh.
20:09
@Mathein so seems like my laptop got jacked yesterday which isn't fun
Did a train run over it, Demonark?
@Daminark ahh, damn
Jacked as a slight shortening of hijacked
as in stolen or as in passwords compromised?
20:11
Stolen
oh ;( I hope you have it password protected.
Did you lose some important files?
It is, yeah, though I think it's not especially difficult to get around that
Do you back up important stuff to Dropbox or something similar?
@Mathein to my memory, nothing right now on there is important
20:13
whispers to Mathein: His memory is stored on it.
@Daminark that's something at least
lol @Ted
@Daminark have u made any progress on learning the thiefs ways
So files isn't the problem so much as, don't have a computer anymore and money is hard
@Eric found a book on that but it left everything as an exercise to the reader
Are you chatting on your phone?
hi Eric
sad
hello @Ted
20:14
oh, and @Fargle
Heya @Ted, chat
one option: write the possible outcomes of $\mathbf{X}$ as $\mathbf{x}^j$ with $i$th element $x_i^j$
Yo Fargle
and then $p_i^j = \text{Pr}(X_i=x_i^j)$
20:16
Howdy @Dami
not sure if I like that, though
Anything new to report, @Fargle?
Not really, no. Been busy with other things this past day and a half or so.
The nerve!
is $|-\infty| = +\infty$ ?
20:19
If I pick that notation, then $\mathbb{E}[X_i] = \sum_j p^j_i x_i^j$
Absolute values make sense for numbers, not for symbols.
which is kinda...:/
You're not setting it up with summation convention, Semiclassic? :D
@TedShifrin i have the limit of integration as positive infinity to negative infinity
lol, I'm sorta wondering if I should
20:20
and inside the integrand is $e^{-|x|}$
Should be the other way around, but ... OK, still, those are symbols, not numbers.
@MatheinBoulomenos can you teach me yoneda?
so if $x \to -\infty$
So use $\int_{-a}^a f(x)\,dx = 2 \int_0^a f(x)\,dx$ when $f$ is even @MohammadAreebSiddiqui.
(not wrong, but not helpful as I think of it)
20:21
@LeakyNun do you know the statement of Yoneda?
@MatheinBoulomenos not really
I can see that Fargle's "Yo, need a lemma?" really is called for these days.
So u are sying i should convert the integrand into $2e^x$ from $(0, +\infty)$ ?
Um, maybe $2e^{-x}$?
right yes that is working
does this mean every even function is symmetrical?
20:23
Well, what does $f(x)=f(-x)$ say about the graph?
oh damn
XD right
thanks!
@TedShifrin The sad thing is that I don't know its statement either. I just like jokes.
sure thing
I knew it once, long ago, Fargle.
Nobody in this room is good at jokes, anyhow.
I'd say, especially not Demonark, but I shouldn't kick him when he's down. :(
@LeakyNun I think that it's better to prove it as an exercise: let $\mathcal C$ be a category and let $F:\mathcal{C} \to \mathbf{Set}$ be a functor and $X \in \mathcal{C}$ be an object. Then there is a natural bijection (natural in $F$ and $X$) $\operatorname{Hom}_{[\mathcal{C},\mathbf{Set}]}( \operatorname{Hom}_{\mathcal{C}} (X,-),F) \cong F(X)$ (the outer Hom functor is in the functor category)
you need spaces in your latex code
20:26
@TedShifrin :(
When you have done that we can talk about mathematical and philosophical implications and how it is related to group objects
That's an exercise everyone interested category theory should do at least once
ok, wait a while, i'm dealing with other things
sorry
np, you asked me. But some things are easier to understand if you do them yourself than if someone tells you how it works
@TedShifrin pfffft
I've had a few
not often, but a few
Well at least I get some mercy
20:30
I liked Mike's "most horses don't get farther than local class field theory"
Though I've been making fewer jokes recently
Hmm. I'm forgetting what the convention is for whether $a^i$ is a component of a column vector vs. row vector
A comathematician is a device for turning cotheorems into ffee
I want to say that $a_i$ is for a column vector and $a^i$ is for a row vector
@Semiclassic: upper is column (contravariant), lower is row (covariant).
20:31
hmm
so I'd write a column vector as $\sum_j a^j \mathbf{e}_j$?
The terms "contra" and "co" here go counter to usual mathematical usage. I.e., a vector is contravariant tensor and a covector is a covariant tensor, even though vectors map "co" and covectors map "contra."
Yup, @Semiclassic.
huh
that feels wrong, somehow, but that doesn't mean it is
Well, Semiclassic, if you're gonna be like computer scientists and act on row vectors by matrix multiplication on the right, then of course what I said is wrong :P
ugh, no thanks
I threw in that last remark because of all our categorical/functorial people here.
20:34
sure
I'm just being indecisive about whether to bother with upper/lower indices
@TedShifrin i hate this terminology but i get why physicists used it
They thought about the transformation of coordinates, of course, @Eric. Dualities everywhere.
them coordinatebois
Notice I didn't blame Semiclassic for the whole thing in my essay.
coordinates make you know where things will move as the world goes round :P
20:36
@TedShifrin I accepted that I won't understand what physicists mean by covariant and contravariant some time ago
so weird to ask simple integration questions here in between of all those insane notations
That whole thing always messes people up in geometry, @EricSilva, with bundles — are we looking at transformations of local sections in coordinates or at transformations of frames?
Is that your way of asking us to shut up, @Mohammed?
the way i think of the physicist definition is if i stretch my coordinates by 2 i gotta stretch the coordinates of my form by 2 but stretch the coordinates of my vector by 1/2
hahahaha no man even though i don't understand it, it motivates me that ill be able to understand these weird greek symbols one day XD
20:38
that's you get co vs contra even though when u write down the maps u would say contra vs co
sure. gotta make sure $\vec{v}\cdot d\vec{x}$ stays the same
Yeah, I always use the homothety to remind students about how coordinates and bases transform oppositely (particularly in beginning linear algebra).
The functors are contra vs co, right.
@Semiclassical yeah exactly
Ugh, no, Semiclassic. No dot. You mean $d\vec x(\vec v)$.
20:39
Not in physics notation I don't.
Or contraction $\delta_i^j$.
e.g. $W=\int \vec{F}\cdot d\vec{x}$
Dotting a vector with a vector $1$-form gives a scalar tensor of type $(1,1)$.
i dont like putting arrows on my bois :(
That dot is very confusing to most people: So you dot the vectors and you're left with a $1$-form. That is not what we're talking about when we act on a vector by a $1$-form.
So you're not understanding what we're talking about!
20:41
dont they think of the dx as an infinitesimal vector
Yeah, but what he's writing isn't acting on a vector by a form.
I just can't accept that a vector is a list of elements that transforms in a particular way, that's just wrong
It's turning a vector-valued $1$-form into a scalar-valued $1$-form.
giggles @Mathein
another question, would the indefinite integral also be $2\int f(x) dx$ if $f(x)$ is even?
@EricSilva, which, of course, we do in geometry all the time, along with the work $1$-form in physics.
20:42
You need carry around a basis and the whole action of $\operatorname{GL}(V)$ just in your defintion of a vector space?
that doesn't make sense tho
meh. regardless of whether it's confusing, it's bog standard notation
No, @MohammadAreebSiddiqui. The indefinite integral is just $\int f(x)\,dx$. You need specifically a definite integral from $-a$ to $a$ to use symmetry.
It is, @Semiclassic, but NOT for what we were talking about.
it might be bad notation, but
20:43
Alright!
That's like saying a set is a (possible infinite) list of elements that transform under permutations in a particular way
No, I like the notation. But I claim you don't understand that we were talking about a different thing.
entirely possible.
We're talking about applying a linear map to a vector, not turning a vector-valued $1$-form into a scalar-valued $1$-form (that's what work of a vector field integrates).
Well, what I had in mind was that the infinitesimal work $\vec{F}\cdot d\vec{x}$ shouldn't change if I make a coordinate transformation correctly
20:44
@MAthein: So you won't let me give a vector bundle by its transition functions relative to an open covering, either.
But that's misleading, Semiclassic, because when you change coordinates, the path will change, too.
The vectors you apply the $1$-form to when you integrate change.
Try it with a single-variable integral.
for precision sake, I should note that when I write that I really do mean $\sum_k F_k \,dx_k$
20:46
That's what integration by substitution is all about.
Yes, I know that.
The $F_k$ don't transform. You're confusing yourself. Their arguments transform.
But the integral stays well-defined because the path transforms.
Well, they do transform in the sense that $F_k$ can be functions of the coordinates, and those do transform.
but that's not the sense you mean
They don't transform linearly.
So you brought up a total red herring here.
whereas, yeah, $dx_k$ definitely transforms linearly
20:50
If you make the substitution $x=2y$ in $\sin x\, dx$ you get $\sin(2y) 2\,dy$.
The invariance you're thinking of comes only when you integrate, because then you're applying the inverse transform to the interval over which you integrate.
yeah, you're right
So it's not surprising people don't understand this stuff. :D
@TedShifrin I don't deny that this gives you a vector bundle. But I don't think that would be a good definition yeah.
But that's also different, the transition functiosn express how you go from one fiber to another, if you regard (real) vector spaces as vector bundles over a one point space, then you still don't get the physicists definition of a vector space.
I accept that relating one trivialization to another trivialization is an imporant and interesting part of the structure of a vector bundle, but how one basis in a vector space relates to another follows from the axioms of a vector sp
@Mathein: But it's the Cech cohomological definition. And you should love that. Case closed.
is there anybody who knows what a nondegenerate variety is?
20:52
@konoa: Usually it means it doesn't lie in any (projective) hyperplane.
I think I had convinced myself a while back that $\vec{F}\cdot d\vec{x}$ should be enough of an explanation because hey dot products are invariant under rotations. but of course rotations aren't the point here
@TedShifrin I do like Cech cohomology, but how does Cech cohomology relate to the definition of a vector space?
I was talking about vector bundle, of course.
okay, I won't argue there
OK. Then we're done. :)
20:52
hmm
So what's $d\vec{x}(\vec{F})$?
But that's not what you're doing there, @Semiclassic.
That is just $\vec F$. :)
wait wha---oh huh.
thanks @TedShifrin, i didn't find any specific definition and i thought it was simply the opposite of irreducible (which wasn't much useful 'casue there's already the term reducible ahahaahha)
$d\vec x$ is the identity linear map on the tangent space.
Nope, it's not, @Konoa :)
yeah. eats unit basis vectors and spits out the same
20:54
@Konoa: Like the twisted cubic in $\Bbb P^3$ is nondegenerate, but a conic is degenerate.
(and then by linearity blah blah blah)
@Ted im still confuzzled as to why the first thing @Semi said is bad
If I have $(f(x) + \int g(x) dx)|_{a}^{b}$. Can this limit be applied to the integral inside or will I have to evaluate the indefinite integral first then apply the limit?
I'm fine with dotting vector-valued things, @Eric. As I said, I do it in geometry all the time ($\omega_{ij} = de_i\cdot e_j$) ... It's just that he was using it to illustrate something it didn't apply to.
You're doing integration by parts? @Mohammed. You have to find the antiderivative, and then evaluate, yes.
about the only way I could see to save my argument would be to pick a particular $\vec{F}$ e.g. $\vec{F}=x e_x$
20:56
@TedShifrin do you have some nice counterexamples to Bezout when we drop assumptions? I have one example over $\Bbb R$ where they intersect at complex points and a boring example in the affine plane where you just have two parallel lines. Maybe some parabolas that intersect once at infinity and once in the affine plane are more interesting?
but I'm not convinced it actually helps me
ok got it
That's the saddest thing ive heard today
But that's really not the point, @Semiclassic.
@Mathein: Yeah, to me, the natural thing is to ignore multiplicities or to have points at infinity. I don't know what else you can do (other than destroying algebraic closure, but then you can still state Bezout as an inequality).
i interpreted the $\vec{v}\cdot d \vec{x}$ as being applied at a particular tangent space
20:59
I think what I want to work is something like $\vec{x}\cdot d\vec{x}$. I'm not sure that actually helps me tho
But the duality pairing really comes when you evaluate on a tangent vector, Eric, so this is still misleading.
no, definitely doesn't help me
@TedShifrin oh right, I should talk a bit about multiplicities (I don't think I can rigorously define them, at least it's not part of the material I'm supposed to talk about)
thanks
You can motivate $2P$ as the limit of $P+Q$ as $Q\to P$, @Mathein :)
You mean the group law on an elliptic curve?
21:01
No, no, just think of the intersection of two curves as a divisor ... and let points come together.
mmm, tangent lines
oh no, you just mean multiplicities lol
or to be more explicit i was thinking of $\sum dx_{i}(\vec{v})$ so when you like stretched coordinates like i said that becomes $\sum 2dx_{i}(\frac{1}{2}\vec{v})$ but i guess that's weird
tbh I don't deal with co/contravariant stuff in physics much myself
My point is that's NOT what was going on, @EricSilva. Semiclassic and I went through that.
21:02
(like that's not obvious)
i think i lost the plot somewhere, not what was going on where?
eh. the plot was just that my explanation wasn't going to work
That dot product, Eric. See our discussion above.
the problem with my explanation is that the invariance of a line integral under transformations has to do as much with how the path transforms as how the one-form transforms
OH ok i got u
21:06
I guess the most you could use my argument for is to deduce how the one-form has to transform, given how the path transforms
but that's just the substitution rule so w/e
Anyways. Notational follies aside
If I go back to my earlier expression for the expectation value:
50 mins ago, by Semiclassical
If I pick that notation, then $\mathbb{E}[X_i] = \sum_j p^j_i x_i^j$
I think I'd put $p_i^j x_{ij}$. ;)
Why not.
21:09
lolok
So much for "notational follies aside"
i hate when the repeated sum happens on indicies at the same height
Yeah, I'm not liking it much either
i see pde folk do it and it makes me angery
LOL, Demonark.
That was folly, wasn't it?
21:11
I think the smartest way to write that is something like $\text{Tr}(P^\top x)$ where $P,x$ are appropriate matrices...though I really hate having $x$ be a matrix :S
Think about vectors as evaluation functions on matrices, so the variable is lowercase
mostly I want that so that I can drag what I'm doing into a context where the relevant inner product is the Hilbert-Schmidt one, and this anticipates that
but I'm not sure it's worth it
Huh? Demonark
It was a joke
See — I told you you should give up on that.
21:14
rekt
You said you would be didn't wanna kick me when I was down. So I'm taking the opportunity before I get back up and recover
(My setting is one where I need to be able to trade between a representation where the inner product is the Euclidean dot product, to one where it's an expectation value, to one where it's the H-S norm between square matrices)
Ah, damn. My folly.
@Daminark the first sentence actually broke my brain
(which is confusing me to keep track of)
21:16
Today seems to be the day of folly
Replace "be" with "but"
@Eric
idk why but probability theory is harder for me to grasp than like any other subject ive tried to learn
Counting is hard, Eric.
Probability as a measure isn't hard for you.
it's a little hard when you start talking about like conditional stuff i think
I love that stuff.
and how youre supposed to interpret that measure theoretically
in terms of like sub sigma-algebras
21:19
You intersect and rescale?
In more precise terms...suppose I've got a matrix $C=U^\top V$ where the columns of $U$ and $V$ are Euclidean unit vectors. I can think of that as a submatrix of the product $$\begin{pmatrix} U^\top \\ V^\top \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix} U & V\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} U^\top U & U^\top V \\ V^\top U & V^\top V\end{pmatrix}$$
Oh, you're still doing this thing from months ago!
i.e. as a submatrix of a gram matrix formed generated by the columns of U and V
coming back to it again, yeah, and trying to appreciate some of the older work
I think the upshot of that stuff is that a gram matrix really doesn't care about which inner product is generating the entries
well, if you're doing volume, it'll depend on the inner product on your space, of course.
Oh actually today was kinda interesting re probability, we sorta built up to the fact that you can't have retracts of a manifold onto its boundary using the problem of aggregation of preferences
21:21
well, I mean in the sense that, if someone gives me a gram matrix and tells me they generated it using real Euclidean vectors
Whoa, Demonark.
@Daminark oh, that sounds cool
I don't know what you're saying now, Semiclassic.
This fits our earlier discussion. If I change my orthonormal basis, then the inner product changes and volume changes.
Well, a Gram matrix is just defined as a matrix whose entries are inner products i.e. $G=\langle v_i,v_j\rangle$
@TedShifrin people formulate this in terms of radon-nikodym and stuff for when you have like a bunch of different sigma algebras and do stochastic process stuff and i think i just forgot a bunch of analysis and have to reprocess it
21:23
Semiclassic, I know that.
And I would not use upper indices there.
We're not talking about components. We're enumerating vectors.
yeah, not sure why I was doing that
Oh, @EricSilva: That's more advanced than I am in probability.
what I wrote earlier, though, specifically assumed that the inner product was just the Euclidean dot product
i.e. being able to write it as a matrix product
Assuming your matrices are with respect to the standard basis. But they needn't be.
I don't follow.
21:25
You're only doing the standard inner product because you're using the standard basis to write your matrices. But you needn't.
@TedShifrin me too lol, at least rn
You can declare any basis you want to be orthonormal ... and that changes the dot product.
fair enough.
And volume.
The usual way is to stick with standard coordinates but put in a $G$ inner product matrix in the middle, but we don't have to.
21:28
anyways, where I was going is a bit different from that
well, OK, you said it worked only for the usual inner product, so I went off on that.
ah. all I meant was that, in writing stuff like $G=V^\top V$, I"m of course assuming that the inner product is the Euclidean dot product w/r/t to the standard basis
from the QM perspective, though, that's not actually the inner product you want---or, indeed, the vectors you want
Basically, let's say you have two people on an island with a volcano, call it $X$ and they're trying to decide where to build some house (let's say this house is just a point). The question of aggregating their preferences should be a continuous function $f:X^2\to X$ such that $f(x,x) = x$ and $f(x,y)=f(y,x)$.
You can show that this doesn't exist by showing that its restriction to the beach of the island doesn't. Because of our volcano, the island retracts to the beach, so it suffices to say that you don't want a function $(S^1\times S^1)/\mathbb{Z}/2 \to S^1$. But the first guy is just the Mobius strip
instead, you want the vectors to be Hermitian matrices and the inner product to be $\langle A,B\rangle = \text{Tr}(A^* B)$
So this works only for a compact island, Demonark? :)
21:31
Yeah that's true
Sure, @Semiclassic, but the Gram thing works with Hermitian, I think.
@TedShifrin ?
The first guy isn't a Möbius strip, Demonark, unless I misunderstand.
Isn't it a Klein bottle?
You don't get something with boundary, unless that $\Bbb Z_2$ is acting really weirdly, and I can't see it.
I need to think about how Gram works in complex land, Semiclassic.
I guess you get a real parallelepiped spanned by $k$ vectors in $\Bbb C^n$.
oh. I mean $A^*$ as conjugate transpose
Yes, yes, I know that.
We use that notation, too, you know.
21:34
then I think I"m just missing the point.
So someone suggested that and Weinberger ruled out the option by saying it had boundary. Z/2 acts by swapping the coordinates
I don't know, Semiclassic. Forget it.
Oh, that's the $\Bbb Z_2$ action. Right, it's got boundary along the diagonal.
I should have known from the symmetry you wrote.
Which action did you have in mind?
21:36
I guess I was acting by the antipodal map in the second factor or something
No, that's not right, either.
Whatever gives the Klein bottle as a quotient of the torus.
I have to do $(z,w) \rightsquigarrow (-z,\bar w)$ or something.
Anyhow, that's pretty cool.
Anyways. The point is to what extent knowing that you've got a factorization of a real matrix $C=U^\top V$ with $U,V$ having unit column vectors is equivalent to there being a representation where the vectors are Hermitian matrices w/r/t to the above inner product.
or, to quote a theorem in a paper I've got open
oh, so that's why I had $v^i$ on the brain: it's what this paper had. sigh
@Ted yeah that's pretty cool, I like this guy's style, basically just kinda randomly talks about stuff and then boom geometry happens
Shmuel is incredibly smart. I haven't seen him in decades, but I knew him when he was young.
He'll be teaching AT this fall so that's gonna be fun
gdi i hate this paper
explain things carefully
For a real $m\times n$ matrix $c_{ij}$, the following are equivalent:
(1) There exist two sets of unit vectors $\{u_i\}_{i=1}^m,\{v_j\}_{j=1}^m$ on an $(m+n)$-dimensional Euclidean space such that $c_{ij}=\langle u_i,v_j\rangle$.
(2)There are two sets of Hermitian operators $\{A_i\}_{i=1}^m$ and $\{B_j\}_{j=1}^n$ and a positive operator $\rho$ with trace $1$ in a Hilbert space $\mathcal{H}$ such that $\text{Tr }\rho =1,$ and, for every $i,j$:
$A_i B_j=B_iA_j$, $\text{spec}(A_i) \in [-1,1],$ $\text{spec}{B_j} \in [-1,1],$ and $\text{Tr}(A_i B_j W ) = c_{ij}$.

« first day (2876 days earlier)      last day (2443 days later) »