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6:00 PM
it's ambiguous, though, because one also has $-1=e^{ni\pi}$ for any odd integer $n$
 
We don't know what Riemmanian manifolds are, that might exactly what the professor was trying to avoid
 
It is, @Alessandro. If you know about diff forms, I can tell you the definition. Otherwise I'd have to go through all sorts of metric tensor shit.
 
Thanks, "expression" was the word I needed.
 
@Semiclassical I think it is typically multivalued
 
@TedShifrin Not really. I'll trust the judgement of the professor and postpone this until I know some geometry I think
 
6:02 PM
OK. Happy to chat with you about it later :P
 
I guess i should have said that $-1=e^{i\pi}$ is the most obvious interpretation, not necessarily the most typical
 
@Semiclassical be aware that $(a^b)^c = a^{bc}$ does not hold in general
 
@Semiclassical: that's if Euler's equation is proven.
 
instead $a^b$ is defined as $\exp(b \ln a)$ where $\ln$ is the complex log
 
6:03 PM
There's been no proof, so far as I'm aware. only "hints"
 
@theDoctor I do recognize you.
 
"...as a genius"
 
Actually @Ted how does the Laplacian work in forms?
 
are you indicating that you haven't seen a proof, or that you don't believe any proof exists?
 
I know the $d\delta + \delta d$ thing
 
6:05 PM
We're doing just functions here, @Balarka, so I'm gonna use the concrete formula.
 
yesterday, by Semiclassical
The first rule of being in a hole: Stop digging.
 
Ok, for sure. I should say I don't know this stuff at all.
So count me in when you explain Laplacian
 
Demonark: So you do need the metric, of course. Choose an oriented orthonormal basis for the tangent space and then dual $1$-forms. Call those $\omega_1,\dots,\omega_n$. You OK so far?
@Leaky: Who's digging now?
 
Sure
 
@LeakyNun: can you show me the proof of the so-called "Euler's equation"?
 
6:06 PM
@TedShifrin Sure, thanks! I'll have diffgeo the next semester, I'll return to it then
 
it of course depends a bit on how you choose to define the exponential map.
 
@theDoctor Use the Taylor expansion of $e^{i\theta}$ and split into real and complex part. This is a super basic calculus proof you can find in any good textbook
 
OK, Demonark, we define $\star$ by sending a $k$-form $\omega_I=\omega_{i_1}\wedge\dots\wedge\omega_{i_k}$ to the complementary $(n-k)$-form $\omega_J$, with the order chosen so that $\omega_I\wedge\star\omega_I = \omega_1\wedge\dots\wedge\omega_n$.
So, for example, in $\Bbb R^2$, $\star dx = dy$ and $\star dy = -dx$. (This has things to do with complex, too.)
 
The derivation I'm fond of is to note that $\frac{d^2}{dt^2}e^{it}=-e^{i t}$, which is the harmonic oscillator ODE with general solution $A\cos t+B\sin t$
and then check initial conditions to get $A=1,B=i$.
 
Demonark: Extend linearly over $C^\infty$ functions, of course.
 
6:10 PM
So you require $\omega \wedge \star \omega$ to be the "standard volume form"
 
@EriktheOutgolfer hi
 
Right, Balarka.
 
More flags?
 
I say 'derivation', though, because I'm not sure that's a rigorous proof
 
@LeakyNun hi, flags (again)
 
6:10 PM
Okay, that makes sense
 
(For the basis $k$-forms built out of the orthonormal coframe.)
 
@EriktheOutgolfer sure
 
Please be nice, everyone.
 
i'll just point to my starred message on the right
 
Who the **** is flagging now? I thought everyone was being nice.
 
6:11 PM
what was flagged this time
this is ridiculi
 
@bwDraco it's already deleted
 
Seems like theDoctor or whoever he is is being difficult.
Leaky, stop flagging.
 
It was rude.
 
Ah I see
 
6:12 PM
meh
 
@TedShifrin that's a false presumption on your part.
 
Rudeness we should be able to handle. Block people if necessary. ... Racist remarks, etc., are unacceptable.
 
the message was directed towards me but someone decided to flag it.
 
OK. The flagged message is gone. Please do not call out specific users for flagging. Everyone, please remember to Be Nice.
3
 
Aha, OK, Leaky, sorry.
 
6:12 PM
i was firmly of the opinion that they were being silly, but flagging for "buzz off" is just tiresome
 
I'd appreciate it if this conversation ended now.
 
Everybody, please stop flagging messages unnecessarily.
 
I don't think I've ever flagged (I have for things insulting me on main, however).
 
Yeah let's talk about Rick Astley
 
Totally agree, @bwDraco. So sorry you're inconvenienced :(
 
6:13 PM
@bwDraco I'm pretty sure the mods can handle this situation; not sure about this room's policies, but please also avoid excessive caps/emphasis.
 
drama is tiresome
 
Huy
lol did I miss good old math.SE chat drama?
 
ugh, what am I missing
 
@Huy I got flagged yesterday for posting "Never Gonna Shoot Your Stars" (look that up if you don't know what that is)
That was quality drama
 
Huy
=(
 
6:14 PM
@TedShifrin is there a good reason I'm thinking this is related to simplectic stuff or am I off base?
 
Further discussion about this flag is not going to lead to anything productive. Everyone, please drop it.
 
the discrete Fourier transform of a gaussian profile should be a gaussian profile
 
@Balarka: You do sometimes go ape over your metal stuff ... you and Demonark.
Speaking of Demonark, did he/you respond to my \star stuff?
 
That wasn't metal!
 
@BalarkaSen We should make our own chat! With hookers and blackjack!
 
6:15 PM
That was an 80's song remastered to make an explicit meme
 
See you later, folks, and please remember to Be Nice.
 
@Alessandro we already have one though, remember?
 
@Kevin: Symplectic structure doesn't require a metric. Not quite related, but there are analogues.
 
@TedShifrin I was following your thing
 
I'm not sure about the "hookers and blackjack" but...
@Ted yeah I'm still good with stars, I think
 
6:15 PM
@Daminark Fair, we can work on that
 
@Alessandro That's what the Washington DC is for
 
OK. Demonark, so are you ready for the definition of Laplacian?
 
I believe so
 
OK, so you take your function and grab on.
 
...ok, I think i know why it's wrong, and I'm annoyed at it
 
6:17 PM
gotta go for dinner, see you later
 
So you take your $f$, you take $df$. You star that, take $d$ again, and star that. That gives you back a function.
 
bye
 
holds on to the tail of a convergent series
 
Wait, so this is $\star d\star df$?
 
Bye, Alessandro.
Right. $\star d{\star}df$. Some people put a minus sign.
Demonark: Easy exercise. Work out the formula for the $\Bbb R^2$ case.
 
6:18 PM
Okay, let me be sure that this works out to the normal Laplacian
 
Then you could do $S^2$ (or maybe Balarka should).
 
scared
 
So in physics we defined it as $\Delta f = \sum_{i=1}^n \frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial x_i^2}$
 
@Balarka: Spherical coordinates $\phi,\theta$. What's an orthonormal coframe?
 
Ok yeah this checks out for $\Bbb R^2$
 
6:19 PM
That's what you'll get in $\Bbb R^n$ if you follow what I told you, Demonark.
 
Working on diff top homework; do I have the right idea for this argument? Let $f: M \to N$ be smooth and $S \subset N$ an embedded submanifold and $f \pitchfork S$. I want to show that $T_p(f^{-1}(S)) = (df)^{-1}(T_{f(p)}(S))$. Let $\phi$ be a slice chart for $S$ and $\pi$ the projection that sends the image of $S$ in the slice chart to 0. Then, $\pi \circ \phi \circ f$ maps paths in $f^{-1}(S)$ to the zero path. So it maps every vector $T_p(f^{-1}(S))$ to the 0 vector.
 
Teléfono nuevo quién es esto
 
@AkivaWeinberger que?
 
Kidding
 
perro comio mi deberes?
 
6:21 PM
Okay, in $\mathbb{R}^2$, we have $df = \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}dx + \frac{\partial f}{\partial y}dy$, so $\star df = \frac{\partial f}{\partial x}dy - \frac{\partial f}{\partial y}dx$
 
Sorry, @Kevin, I was distracted.
So you have a containment, @Kevin. You need to argue equality, but good :)
So it works, right, Demonark.
 
So the kernel of the differential of this map has dimension at least $m - (n - s)$, the dimension of $f^{-1}(S)$. But since $f \pitchfork S$, $d\phi$ an isomorphism at $f(p)$ and $\pi$ rank $n-s$, the image of the same differential must be at least dimension $n-s$. But the sum of the two must be $m$. So, the dimension of the image is exactly $n-s$ and the kernel exactly $m-(n-s)$.
 
@Kevin: Right, the transversality condition is precisely the condition that you need to use.
 
Ok, so I am parameterizing the sphere as $(r\sin\theta \cos\phi, r \sin\theta \sin \phi, r\cos\theta)$
 
I didn't quite follow your argument, @Kevin. How did you phrase transversality?
OK, @Balarka.
British spherical coords, of course :)
 
6:25 PM
Haha
 
So you can pull back the standard Euclidean metric $\sum dx_i\otimes dx_i$.
Shall I tell you the result?
 
No, I have done this computation, give me a second
 
@Kevin: I don't know if you understand quotient vector spaces, but let me say this anyhow, cuz I like it.
Transversality says that $\text{im}(df_p) + T_s S = T_s N$ ($s=f(p)$).
This means that $df_p$ maps onto $T_sN/T_sS$. That makes your computation a bit more evident.
 
The first fundamental form is $[r^2\sin^2\theta, 0; 0, r^2]$
That's my metric
 
I.e., the metric is $r^2(d\theta\otimes d\theta+\sin^2\theta d\phi\otimes d\phi)$.
 
6:29 PM
@TedShifrin $f \pitchfork S$ iff $T_{f(p)}N$ spanned by vectors in $T_{f(p)}S$ and $df_{p}$
 
For sure.
 
is how we phrased it
 
Right, that's my sum statement.
So if you mod out by $T_sS$, $df_p$ surjects onto the quotient.
 
So now I have to find the dual to $\partial/\partial \theta$ and $\partial/\partial \phi$ wrt that metric
 
Hint @Balarka: The metric must be $\omega_1\otimes\omega_1+ \omega_2\otimes\omega_2$.
Careful, @Balarka. Those aren't unit vector fields.
 
6:32 PM
Shucks, you are right. Can I just assume $r = 1$? I'll scale everything later
 
Fine by me.
 
@Ted sorry I was out for a second, but yeah I did verify it on a chalkboard and it works, because $d\star df = (\frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial x^2} + \frac{\partial^2 f}{\partial y^2})dx\wedge dy$
 
Yup, Demonark. I figured you got that easily enough.
So $\star$ of that gives you the coefficient function, Demonark.
 
And then $\star(dx\wedge dy)$ is 1, so we're good. And I can see that this ought hold for $\mathbb{R}^n$ as well
 
Yup, there you go. If you want, you can do the exercise Balarka's doing to see what it is on the sphere.
 
6:39 PM
So, yes, $\langle \partial/\partial\theta, X \rangle = \omega_\theta(X)$ implies $\omega_\theta(X) = \sin^2(\theta) X_\theta$ and $\langle \partial/\partial \phi, X \rangle = \omega_\phi(X)$ implies $\omega_\phi(X) = X_\phi$ where $X = X_\theta \partial/\partial \theta + X_\phi \partial/\partial \phi$
I hope
 
But you still haven't adjusted to have an orthonormal basis, have you?
 
Okay, and then what info does the Laplacian give? In the plane I know you've got harmonic functions linking in to holomorphic stuff, but... like what info does it carry in general?
 
Er, isn't $\langle \partial/\partial \theta, \partial/\partial \phi \rangle = 0$ wrt this first fundamental form?
 
Lots of interplay with harmonic analysis and group representation theory.
Balarka, sure. I'm worrying about lengths.
 
Oh I see
 
6:42 PM
I said that 10 minutes ago :D
 
Oh huh, is it because of Lie groups?
 
I got it; I thought just doing it on unit sphere suffices but of course that factor of $\sin^2(\theta)$ intrudes my length
I wasn't careful
 
Yup, Demonark.
 
So I should look at $1/\sin\theta \cdot \partial/\partial \theta$ and $\partial/\partial \phi$
 
Demonark: There's the whole thing with harmonic forms (not just functions) and Hodge theory. Lots of powerful structure.
That's not right, Balarka. The factor should be on the other term. (I have trouble with this because of the switch in variables.)
 
6:46 PM
I don't think so. My first fundamental form is $I = [\sin^2\theta, 0; 0, 1]$
$\partial/\partial \theta$ is the vector $[1, 0]$ in good coordinates
 
The first term is with $\phi$.
 
That sounds pretty nifty. So wait is this thing the Hodge star? I remember my physics TA some time back was telling us about forms and mentioned this Hodge star but at the time I had no idea what he was going on about
 
No.
Yeah, that's it, Demonark.
 
And $[1, 0]^T I [1, 0] = [\sin^2\theta, 0]$
 
Balarka. Think geometrically.
Which circles have a radius of $\sin\theta$?
 
6:48 PM
Er, constant $\phi$ circles, right? Constant lattitude dudes.
 
Now you've got the variables confused.
This is one of the reasons I carefully used $u$ and $v$ in my diff geo notes :P
 
My original parametrization was $(\sin\theta \cos\phi, \sin \theta \sin\phi, \cos\theta)$
Ah ok.
I fucked up
 
hi chat
 
Heya, ERic. Balarka's computing the Laplacian on the sphere. :)
Eventually, anyhow.
 
@Ted is there a classification of $3$-dimensional positive curvature space forms
oh cool
 
6:50 PM
> oh cool
 
It's just quotients of the sphere, I think. You need to get Joe Wolf's book, Eric.
 
Morning4
 
ya ik it's quotients of spheres
i wanna know what the fundamental groups of those guys can look like
 
one of my profs passed away today
 
Joe Wolf does all that in his book.
 
6:51 PM
quotients of spheres by what?
 
Oh, I'm sorry Faust
 
guy was pretty young its really scary
 
Oh geez, Faust, I'm so sorry.
Something flukish, or was he known to be ill?
 
@Balarka finite groups my duud
 
my other favorite prof passed away last year in September apparently its bad luck
 
6:53 PM
There's the famous dodecahedral space, for example, ERic.
 
no
 
Wow, Faust.
 
@TedShifrin How about I continue at a later time when I have pen and paper available and your book in front of me? I'll latex computations up
 
its was sudden i dont know what happened just got an email that class was canceled today
 
I know when I had cancer, when it got really bad, my students started to flip out, and then I missed the last few weeks of class. They were more upset than I was.
No biggie, Balarka. You can report later.
 
6:53 PM
Thanks, I will.
 
You don't need the book :P
 
salutes
 
@BalarkaSen no you're not allowed to have pencil and paper at your disposal, chalk only kthx
 
@Ted oh cool, I was doing an exam and there was a question about finite simple groups and their representations, so immediately i thought up a way to turn it into a question about space forms
 
Demonark: He's not yet got blackboards installed all over home.
 
6:54 PM
@Ted I need to make sure my parameterization is coherent with the geometric picture of the sphere :P
 
:O
 
Im starting to no longer wonder why people do drugs
 
Anyhow, Eric, you should know Wolf's book, regardless.
 
@EricSilva So you class of spaces are exactly $S^3/G$ where $G$ is any finite group acting freely on $S^3$?
 
life short
 
6:55 PM
Faust: I've never even smoked pot.
 
@Balarka yeah, i wanna classify the $G$s
 
@EricSilva did you use that method or just think of it and work with representations?
 
That encompasses all compact 3-manifolds
 
I stick to booze. :)
 
Any compact 3-manifold has $S^3$ as universal cover (Poincare conjecture)
 
6:55 PM
@TedShifrin me neithier i ate a brownie my mother made once though and claened the entire house and then slept for 14 hours
 
LOL, Faust. Cute :)
 
@Balarka im aware
 
So you're classifying compact 3-manifold groups
@Eric Oh ok
 
I'm taking a lunch break. Bye for now, all.
 
Bye @Ted
 
6:56 PM
My bad habits are limited to good Rum and the occasional cigar or puf on my pipe
have fun ted
 
Noooooo smoke of any sort for Ted.
Allergic.
 
^^
 
Cigarettes downstairs make me ill ...
 
crack cocaine or nothing
 
Bye!
 
6:57 PM
i cant stand cigarettes
and honestly i haven had a cigar since my grandfather passed away
 
@EricSilva I believe geometrization says if $G$ acts freely on $S^3$ it acts by isometries on $S^3$
 
maybe thats what i will do today
 
i.e. it's a subgroup of $SO(4)$
 
@TedShifrin Oh you're right my argument isn't totally air tight as stated. That every matrix in my composition is at least rank $n-s$ doesn't guarantee that the product is rank $n-s$. I need to be more careful and say that $d\pi \vert_{T_{f(p)}(S)} = 0$ AND $d\pi \vert_{T_{f(p)}(S)^{\complement}} = \text{id}_{T_{f(p)}(S)^{\complement}}$.
 
@BalarkaSen i Hate the letter S for math notation
 
6:58 PM
$S$eriously?
Are you $S$ure?
 
my big S and little s and 5 all look the same in my writing
so i avoid it like he plague also $S_n$ is confused
or should i say $5_n$ ;p
 
I mean you could make the same case about $z$ and $2$, yeah?
 
@Balarka turns out someone also used Feit-Thompson for the problem i was looking at lmao
 
no i put a bar in my z so i can tell em apart
 
So in my third lecture people did ask me to do this but it was so off-putting
Like usually I'd write it normally and be like oh yeah I should bar the z's a little while later
 
7:05 PM
@EricSilva vOv
 
is it true that each open set in $\Bbb R \ ^ 2$ is the disjoint union of rectangles of the form $(a,b) x (c,d)$ (parallel to the axis) ? i know it is the union of such rectangles, but can we force the union to be disjoint?
 
@Daminark i could show you a midterm that would terrify you every question was covered in red ink
 
Oh lord
 
honestly i had never seen so much ink on a midterm that someone passed let alone did well on...
 
tfw you use fields medal results on your undergrad rep theory midterm
gg no re
 
7:09 PM
There are other rooms, with 158 users currently idling in 88 rooms.
 
7:36 PM
@Liad try with a connected one
 
@AlessandroCodenotti try to disprove the claim?
 
Pick a connected set and write it as the disjoint union of open rectangles, do you see how this goes wrong?
 
yea, it contradicts the connectivity
but in $\Bbb R$ we can take disjoint intervals to cover any open set, whats the difference here?
 
@TedShifrin baaaaaaah. Sorry, the last thing I wrote isn't right. Please disregard.
 
7:52 PM
blargh
FFT in Mathematica works fast but isn't in a very friendly form for obtaining the approximate Fourier transform I want
NFourierTransform gives me output in the right form but is slow as hell
 
Ya the mathematica FFT uses the block swapping algorithm, right?
 
probably?
the problem is that mathematica's one is done with time-series data in mind
 
The one where you cut the domain in half and swap those blocks. The cut the two half subdomains in half and swap again, etc
 
and I want to be doing the Fourier transform over some position range (to get to momentum space)
moreover, it doesn't tell you what the proper frequency range is
hmm
 
what do you mean by the proper frequency range?
 
7:55 PM
well, i'm misstating it a bit
but when it outputs the discrete Fourier transform, it's an array from n=1 on up
 
Ah ya. Rather than $\omega_n$?
 
right. moreover, in momentum space you'd generically expect positive and negative wavenumbers
 
@Liad that's because the union of overlapping intervals in $\Bbb R$ is an interval while the same doesn't hold for overlapping rectangles in $\Bbb R^2$
 
so that doesn't make a lot of sense at first glance
there's a mathematica.se answer which helps but the conventions aren't entirely clear
 
I spent 2 weeks my senior year of undergrad working out the conventions for mathematica FFT. If I remembered id tell you but sadly I dont.
 
7:59 PM
kk
what I'm wanting to do, to be clear
 
Basically I just had to take a bunch of function which I could analytically get the FT, then do the FFT numerically and compare
 
start with a wavefunction in position space, sample it, do an FFT on this data to get to momentum space, multiply by $e^{-i tk^2/2}$ to evolve according to a free particle, and then transform back to get the time-evolved wavefunction
being able to do the FT and inverse FT are obviously the key steps, since if these are slow/wrong then the rest is scuppered
 
8:34 PM
if a random variable takes value 1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, ..., and zero, is it still discrete?
 
hmm, so it has 0 as both a point and a limit point
i'm dubious that including zero or not will make the difference, though
you could just as well put it at the front of the list.
 
Well, his point is {0} \cup {1, 1/2, 1/3, ...} is not a discrete set, which is the set of values the RV takes
I don't see any significant trouble that can occur from this, though
 
i guess I'm confused: if A is a discrete set, can unioning it with a singleton set ever give a non-discrete set?
 
Sure.
 
8:44 PM
{1, 1/2, 1/3, ...} is a discrete subset of R. Every point has a neighborhood disjoint from the others
 
lol did balarka cause more trouble in here again
 
oh, discrete as in "all points are isolated"
 
(seeing star panel)
 
no
random crank wandering in here did
 
right
I did cause some minor trouble yesterday though
 
8:45 PM
(he was already being a crank in physics chat, but we ignored him until he stopped bothering to talk)
 
Discreteness or continuity are decided looking at the cumulative somethig function, if $P(X=x)=0$ for al $x$ then the variable is continuous, I think?
 
some guy got flag banned for posting rickroll
so i posted a rick roll meme
and said "this is flaggable material"
 
@Balarka: Have we sphericalled yet?
 
and that got flagged, but someone deleted it before i get banned
@TedShifrin Not thinking about it right now.
I'll work it out tomorrow :)
Getting some physics homework done
 
@MikeM: The star panel is becoming ridiculouser.
 
8:46 PM
i dunno, I like my starred comment pretty well
 
I find myself needing to care about other things
 
probably good idea
 
Yup.
 
@Semiclassical I was sure there's some slick physical way of explaining why in a LR circuit the current lags by a phase difference of $\pi/2$ with the voltage and in a CR circuit it leads by a phase difference of $\pi/2$ with the voltage, but I seem to be forgetting it.
I guess the point is in LR the induction makes the current lag
 
yeah, i usually just trust the math for that
 
8:57 PM
@Semiclassical you can even get a compact set :)
 
Balarka's doing stuff in high school physics I don't remember ever doing, even in 3 semesters of university.
 
AC circuits, yum yum
 
Just ODEs, I guess.
 
Yup
 
yeah, forced second order constant coefficient equations
 
8:58 PM
$lim x->-∞ (2x^2-x+5)/(5x^2+6x-1)$ can i take like the coefficient of the biggest power and make them into a ratio?
 
well, second order if you do LRC
 
In a full blown LCR circuit
 
only first order if you do LR or RC
 
Yeah, I remember teaching a little of that in my discussion section in diff eq at Berkeley, but I never did it in physics.
 
sniped
 
8:58 PM
@MATHASKER: Yes, but why does that work? (Then you won't have to ask.)
 
physically it presumably comes down to the fact that an inductor acts as a choke, i.e. if you try to change the current through it quickly then you get a strong back-EMF
 
so it would work even if the lim of x is going to negative infinity?
 
We haven't had manual chokes since the 70s, Semiclassic. It's all automatic.
Well, and then there was fuel injection :P
 
I don't really know why it works was it something like if they have the same coefficient it was like goin to the same number
 

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