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19:00
I'll be back in 30 minutes or so. I have to finish a problem for a student.
@BalarkaSen Maybe. But it's of fundamental importance to my field
It would be nice to have an actual proof
Let $p$ be a prime number. Prove that $$\prod_{k=1}^{p-1} k^{2k-p-1}$$ is an integer number.
If one has a continuous vector field fitting the bill, can one smooth it without picking up zeros?
yeah you can approximate C^0 maps by C^infty maps arbitrarily close to it
a vector field is a map M --> TM after all
well there's some work to keep it a vector field after smoothing
some pullback shit
@LeakyNun hi
19:10
@BalarkaSen arbitrarily close works on a compact guy...
@KasmirKhaan hi
:D
I want to see if I got the isomorphism theorem or not
can I write what I got and you tell me if its right or wrong ?
All righty
we have a surjective homomorphism from f: G-->G'
we first the a map pi : G---> G/H by sending a---> aH
where H is the normal subgroup of G
then from we have another map , f -bar : G/H ---> G'
f bar ( aH) = f(a)
what the isomorphism theorem says now is that composing fbar with pi
is the same as doing f
But G/H --> G' is an isomorphism
ie f bar is an iso
@LeakyNun well ? :D
2 mins ago, by Kasmir Khaan
where H is the normal subgroup of G
you finally define your variables :D
that's a good change
19:15
haha :D
well I kinda get what this says
and I know how to prove that this is well defined
why we define fbar (aH) as f(a) and all the details
still I dont get the feel of this theoem
I need to see how it can be used
Can you give me an example and i try to solve it?
consider f: S3 -> Z2 defined by the parity
hmm let me see
do you mean parity of like even permutation get sets to 0
and odd to 1 ?
19:18
okay first i have to list the elements of S_3
1, (12) ,(23) , (13) , (123) ,(132)
to find a normal subgroup i can take any of the two of order 3
okay let me see H = {1, (123), (132) } this would work right?
oups
does not work
accually it does
123 and 132 are inverses of each other
and we have the identity
@KasmirKhaan
@LeakyNun the question is i need to prove that S3 / H is isomorphic to Z/2 right?
H is the kernel of the map
you're doing it backward
what do you mean ?
37 secs ago, by Leaky Nun
H is the kernel of the map
19:26
Yes i know that
a homomorphism f gives rise to a normal subgroup ker(f)
and a quotient G/ker(f)
ah you mean I could get that info from the ker
all right so even permutations will be in the kernel
that is what i got but after a bit of work ><
not nessasry work
Ehm this map is a surjective home f : S3 -->Z/2
well in this case its easy
[G:H] has index 2
and any group with 2 elements are isomorphic
@LeakyNun .
what is isomorphic to what?
G/H and Z/2
do you know the names of G and H?
19:31
S3 / kerf isomorphic to Z/2
Hi everybody
do you know the name of ker f?
how do you call the group of even permutations?
correct
S3/ A3 isomorphic to Z/2
neat :D
Can you ask me some questions on the theorem of iso
to see if I got it right or not
19:32
Are you still here? @Eric
How are measures of "nice" subsets of $\Bbb R^n$ defined? For example in physics one often integrates of the energy levels $H^{-1}(E)$ of some smooth function $H$. Specifically right now I am interested in getting a measure on the boundary of a (bounded) convex set.
(lebesgue measure is the only thing that exists as an inducing measure here)
Hausdorff measure of the appropriate dimension I suppose?
@KasmirKhaan why does the homomorphism need to be surjective?
hmm
it does not need to be surjective we can have
@Alessandro does this measure agree with the induced measure you get when your subset is a manifold and you look at the measure you get from the induced riemannian metric?
19:36
G/ker f isomorphic to imf
here f :is a hom
:DDDDDD
well i think all I need now is to do some exercice on this
to see how usefull it is =p
anyways
consider G=Z and f(n)=((12)(345))^n
What is R/Z
@KasmirKhaan a circle
19:37
but why is that?
I mean arent the cosets of the form a+Z
where a in R
runs and hides
@TedShifrin HiTed :D
@s.harp I don't know what a Riemannian metric is so I'm afraid I can't help with that
Hi @Ted
but @Ted can :P @s.harp
19:38
Well, you should know, @Alessandro :P
@TedShifrin BTW I understood the theorem from your book :D
hi @Balarka
19:38
no hi for poor kasmir?
I ran and hid from poor Kasmir :D
@Ted y u use a lowercase h for me
Oh, hell, @Balarka, it's more than you deserved.
i am hurt
19:39
Yeah, I know.
@TedShifrin you had an example with R/Z i could not get
@KasmirKhaan consider a set of representatives [0,1)
direct after the proof of the iso theorem
where you wrap back to 0 if you pass 1
just like a circle
@s.harp: If you're working with something other than an open set of $\Bbb R^n$, Lebesgue measure won't be good. You either have to use its manifold structure or use Hausdorff measure of the appropriate dimension.
19:41
"It was on analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold--Боже мой!"
3
@LeakyNun oh thats a neat trick :D
hi there self deprecating memelord
i was thinking of it like this, each irrational number in its own coset (ofc up to addintion by Z)
@Ted thanks, the Hausdorff mesaure is looking like the thing I am looking for
@Leaky: That's the topological picture. But the argument is just basic complex numbers, Kasmir.
19:41
like sqrt(2) + Z ect
hmm
right
@Fargle: 3 stars for Tom Lehrer.
Hi @Balarka
but many people know nothing about complex numbers, I swear
@Ted: out of?
(Also hi)
19:42
Haven't seen you in ages, Fargle!
@KasmirKhaan how much do you know about complex numbers?
@Kasmir: I gave the homomorphism explicitly using $\phi(t) = e^{2\pi it}$!!
I have a friend in Minsk, who has a friend in Pinsk, whose friend in Omsk has friend in Tomsk has friend in Akmolinsk
He's had a complex variables course, Leaky.
@LeakyNun id say normal knowledge =p
19:43
lol Kasmir hasn't been listening
Whose friend in Alexandrovsk, has friend in Petropavlovsk, whose friend is now working somehow on the problem in Dnepopetrov
Ted gave you the homomorphism
I hope I have that right
@TedShifrin Been busy. How goes it?
Yeah, Kasmir needs to do more work on his own. :)
19:43
@TedShifrin I know you gave the map, but i wanted to understand what R/Z is
grrrr
Other than oral surgery and toothaches on the other side of my mouth, fine, Fargle.
@TedShifrin i hope you heal fast :D
Well, it's topologically a circle, as Leaky just showed, and as a group it is the circle group, as well. Addition in $\Bbb R/\Bbb Z$ corresponds to multiplication in $S$.
@KasmirKhaan I thought you have the isomorphism theorem!
Thanks, Kasmir. The surgery is healing well. It's all the other pain that isn't fun.
19:45
@BalarkaSen "And when his work is done, haha! begins the fun--from Dnepropetrovsk to Petropavlovsk by way of Iliysk and Novorossiysk to Alexandrovsk to Akmolinsk to Tomsk to Omsk to Pinsk to Minsk to meeee the news will run!"
f:R->circle is a homorphism with kernel Z, so R/Z is isomorphic to a circle! @KasmirKhaan
That's exactly the example he's referring to.
YES TO MEEEE (epic dank music here) THE NEWS WILL RUN
@TedShifrin I hope that improves.
Well I asked that Q only to prepare for another Q
what is R/Q
19:46
Me too, Fargle, thanks. Any fun math for you these days?
@KasmirKhaan topologically, R/Q is a mess
you should know what C/R is!
Don't get Leaky started on $\Bbb R/\Bbb Q$.
@TedShifrin oh I already finished
19:46
Good :)
Okay then Ill keep doing exercices
R/Q just gets ze indiscrete topology
@KasmirKhaan describe the elements of C/R
but the idea of [0,1) i find to be awesome
@BalarkaSen what the hell
of course not
19:47
However, topologically, $\Bbb R/\sim$ with $x\sim y\iff x-y\in\Bbb Q$ is super nice
@AlessandroCodenotti how?
are we talking of group quotient or subspace quotient
@TedShifrin My research is delving into numerically solving stochastic ODEs, which is...to put it lightly, not to my tastes, but hopefully it can get me a paper. Outside of that, I have a class in mathematical models (...) and a class on the Lebesgue integral (!!!).
ti+R where t is in R
@KasmirKhaan have you come across the definition of quotient in terms of equivalence relation?
19:48
Yes
@KasmirKhaan therefore C/R is isomorphic to?
Well, that's cool, Fargle. Are you settling down to a stable existence (as opposed to your previous chaos)?
Oooh, Lobachevsky :3
@KasmirKhaan then you should know that R/Z corresponds to x~y = x-y in Z
@LeakyNun my guess would be R^2
19:48
i.e. the fractional part
@KasmirKhaan no!
@TedShifrin Starting to. Having to wake up at 7 every day helps.
let me think
where does the square come from?
I'm glad, @Fargle. And I'm glad you sent Ken a note a while back.
19:49
@LeakyNun Why? Q is dense in R.
Is the inclusion $\ell^p\subseteq\ell^q$ strict for $p<q$?
@TedShifrin Me too! I don't do it often--I have a strange reputation as a student under my various professors, as I think I've harped on before.
@BalarkaSen oh, you mean that topology
@Alessandro: Can you find something in $\ell^2$ that's not in $\ell^1$?
In the quotient topology something is open in R/Q if it's preimage is open in R; so it's an interval
19:50
@BalarkaSen you're right, sorry
@LeakyNun I meant the indiscrete topology :P Not sure what "that" means
@TedShifrin The harmonic series
@BalarkaSen I thought you were talking about the topology on a set of representatives
Oh, that reminds me, @Fargle. I have more than a dozen recs to do for a former student/advisee who's applying to grad schools. I think my days of doing this are coming to an end soon.
blah that's the nonmeasurable bullshit
19:51
OK, @Alessandro. Can you generalize?
@TedShifrin I'll have to angle in while I can! :)
i dont care (grapefruit is sour, yes)
<---- loves grapefruits
@Fargle: Sure, if you do more from my book or from diff geo :P
@TedShifrin Nothing in this world is free. I accept that.
It may be quite a time before I can work on it--once the paper is finished, I'll get on it.
@TedShifrin $n^{-1/p}$ is not in $\ell^q$ for $q\le p$
19:53
@BalarkaSen I've never heard of quotient topology though
@Fargle You need to teach me ODEs
what is the condition on Q?
@BalarkaSen Just basic ODE stuff? I can do that at some point I think
@Fargle Yeah I'm learning about them on a reading course thingy
I'll need to refresh myself on stuff like variation of parameters and such techniques but the rest of a first course should be doable
19:53
@LeakyNun is it a line ?
Cool!
@LeakyNun ze condition?
quotient space is defined whenever you have an equivalence relation on your space
@BalarkaSen for a quotient topology to exist
@KasmirKhaan what is it isomorphic to?
@BalarkaSen oh thanks
@Fargle Do you want to think about a Lebesgue integral doubt I had yesterday and half solved in the meantime?
@AlessandroCodenotti I'm not very far, but I can give it a think
I dont know the map
f : C---> ?
19:56
you already listed the cosets man
recall your isomorphism theorems
I've been on a loose mode for too long, I should use my holidays constructively
f: G --> G' is a homomorphism
ker(f) = H is a normal subgroup of G
G/H is isomorphic to im(f) with f-bar(aH) = f(a)
Why am I a chronic passive-active procrastinator?
@Fargle I have a decreasing sequence of measurable sets $E_n$, such that $\bigcap E_n=E$. I'm trying to work out conditions under which $\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}\int_{E_n}f(x)\mathrm{d}x=\int_E f(x)\mathrm{d}x$
okay here H = R normal subroup of C
the image of C is whole C right?
19:57
Surely I need $L(E_1)<\infty$ otherwise it's not even true that $L(E_1)\to L(E)$ (Or $L(E_i)<\infty$ for some $i$ which is the same)
@KasmirKhaan we don't even have a function ><
whence the image
@AlessandroCodenotti Hmmmmmmmm
i really dont get it
@Balarka: Are you a passive-aggressive procrastinator (not to mention prognosticator)?
let me think
19:59
I think I can prove that this holds if $f$ is nonnegative on $E_1$ and $\int_{E_1}f\mathrm{d}x<\infty$, because in this case the function $A\mapsto\int_Af\mathrm{d}x$ is an outer measure and this becomes the continuity theorem for outer measures

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