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17:00
@AkivaWeinberger Same sign
@SimplyBeautifulArt (See my next comment after that)
@SimplyBeautifulArt Theory does include those bizarre concepts of free fall of elevator
@SimplyBeautifulArt I should not be allowed to construct elevators.
@AkivaWeinberger So how do I determine the apparent gravitational force?
In any case, if they're the same sign, then $g-a$ would predict that, when travelling upwards at $9.8\ \rm m/s^2$, I feel $9.8-9.8=0$ gravitational force
which is false
so it's $g+a$
17:01
@AkivaWeinberger Can you prove it or help me get an intuitive idea of it?
Hm. You'd probably want to calculate the size of the normal force of the ground on your feet, or something
@AkivaWeinberger Let's consider a block of mass m kept in the elevator
The only forces are gravity and the normal force
@AkivaWeinberger Yes
Gravity is $mg$, normal force we don't know yet so let's call it $F_N$
The box is going upwards with the elevator at acceleration $a$
17:03
@AkivaWeinberger Why shouldn't normal force be mg too
$F_N-mg\stackrel?=ma\implies F_N\stackrel?=m(a+g)$
which means the net force on the box, by Newton's second law, should be $ma$.
We are doing basic physics Newton's laws?
@SimplyBeautifulArt Why shouldn't Normal force be mg when it's accelerating upwards
The net force is $F_N-mg$; setting that equal gives us $F_N=m(g+a)$. Dividing by $m$ gives us the answer
@Abcd Because then you'd pass through the floor, essentially
The normal force is as much force as needed to prevent you from passing through the floor
In this case, that means making sure you continue accelerating at $a$ meters per second, with the elevator
17:06
Aren't you in class, DogAteMy? :D
If it was just $mg$, then the net force would be $mg-mg=0$, and you'd be left behind as the elevator goes up
@TedShifrin No, it ended
@Abcd Its "net force equals mass times acceleration"
It ends at like 1:30
(2:06 here)
ohhh ...
Here, net force is $F_n-mg$ (minus because its in opposite directions)
17:07
@Abcd Hm, strange that neither home nor school have elevators
Strange for me, at least
Must be a small city or something
@AkivaWeinberger Schools don't have elevators in my country
I've never seen an elevator in any school I went to ...
My school in New York is seven floors tall
Maybe that's just a consequence of being located in Manhattan
Its footprint is very small
The high school I volunteered at last year was on floors 6 and 7 of the main library, so yeah.
…Of?
Oh
You mean like an actual library
not a small one that's inside a school?
17:09
yeah, the main library in San Diego
hi Semiclassic
oh hey physics (earlier)
@Semiclassical Hey!
DogAteMy was instructing Abcd on taking elevators with multiple g's.
17:11
@Semiclassical Yes, we were discussing apparent gravitational force in an elevator. I am having a hard time getting an intuitive idea of it.
"Multiple" meaning like $1+\epsilon$
2 or 3 is more fun, DogAteMy
yeah, equivalence principle is a bit confusing at times.
17:12
You should never be allowed to construct elevators
@TedShifrin
hi @Alessandro
DogAteMy: That's probably not the only reason.
@AkivaWeinberger Eh, or work at a theme park.
The weird example of equivalence principle stuff I remember is this.
Fine, you guys will make me be unemployable.
@Abcd Note that elevators typically aren't accelerating for most of the ride
Only when they start and stop
Well, maybe a little
It's most noticeable at the start and stop
@AkivaWeinberger But physics questions :((
17:14
Suppose I have a semi-truck going down the highway.
You would have a Semi truck, wouldn't you
..lol
Inside the trailer, I attach a pendulum to the ceiling.
For science
@Semiclassical I don't know semi trucks.
If the truck slows down/speeds up, what happens to the pendulum?
17:15
Don't worry, Abcd.
Just someone is pulling you along the highway and you're on a big platform.
@TedShifrin I must worry. Physics is going to kill me.
...bah. that image is terrible.
So by pendulum do you just mean a ball on a rope tied to the ceiling,
Is it trivial to show that removing row and column i from an upper triangular matrix results in an upper triangular matrix?
or like is it constrained to move in only one axis
17:16
right.
I meant: don't worry about what a semi-truck is.
yes, @ErikM.
It might be harder to see which obvious principle to use…
@ErikM
That's what I've got in mind.
@Semiclassical let's consider a train with a pendulum, will be more intuitive for me
17:17
Sure, works for me.
Have you written down some concrete examples and looked, @ErikM?
I suppose its like removing a stair from a staircase then shifting it vertically and horizontally -- it's still a staircase.
But yeah, it doesn't change if the column index of a given entry is greater than the row index @ErikM
@Semiclassical SO what's your question?
If the train accelerates/decelerates, what happens to the pendulum?
17:18
(For fun counterintuitiveness, we can replace the pendulum weight with a balloon full of air later)
lol, that's where I was heading
That's pretty good, @ErikM.
There's a video by I think SmarterEveryDay that demonstrates it
except there you need to attach the rope to the bottom rather than the top.
17:19
@Semiclassical pendulum moves back in the former case?
@TedShifrin I have, it seems quite obvious to me, but I've been betrayed by my intuition before. I am trying to prove it rigorously.
Or you can be a bit more formal and look at $a_{jk}$ for $j>k$ before and after.
Good for you! (not sarcastic)
Right. That's consistent with both common experience and with the equivalence principle.
@Semiclassical Nah, pendulum full of air rather than helium
@Semiclassical Then?
17:20
Delicious nitrous air
@TedShifrin Good hint, thank you!
Suppose I then attach a helium-filled balloon to the floor of the train by a string.
@ErikM: Maybe use $a'_{jk}$ for the new matrix? How are they related?
If the train is moving at a constant speed, the string will be pointing directly up.
@Semiclassical not intuitive at all.
17:21
@ErikM If they're both less than $i$, nothing happens. If they're both greater than $i$, they both get $1$ subtracted. If one is smaller than $i$ and one is greater than $i$, then you subtract one from the greater one, and you end up with a $<i$ and $\ge i$
Shhhh, DogAteMy.
Yeah, it's not.
I mean, the balloon's string being straight up-and-down when the velocity is constant is easy enough
@Akiva you took the words right out of my mouth ;) I've got it now, thank you @TedShifrin and @AkivaWeinberger !
there's no acceleration, so no weird forces.
Most welcome, @ErikM.
17:23
@Semiclassical ok
The hard question is: What happens to the balloon when the train accelerates?
Will it move forward or backward?
OR neither?
yeah, that's an option as well.
@Semiclassical backward like the pendulum (unsure)
17:25
That's the usual answer, yeah. It's also wrong.
I think that's the correct video ^
But ... everything on the internet is right!
By "usual" I mean it's the one which springs to mind first.
@TedShifrin I mean, I hope I didn't link to an irrelevant video
The simplest way to get to the right conclusion is to think in terms of the equivalence principle. The reason why the pendulum moved backward is that, when the train speeds up, its acceleration translates into an additional backwards force in the train's reference frame.
But there's already the weight of the pendulum, which points straight down.
17:29
ah, I love those caret arguments ...
hi. would some one tell me why it has to be n-m+1 ? why not n-m-1? or n-m simply?
Combining those two forces gives a net force which points down and backwards. Effectively, it's as though the weight points down and backwards.
i can't upload my photo :)
damn .
We're seeing it, parvin.
@Semiclassical How is this pertinent to the elevator problem?
17:30
What do you mean? I can see the photo
It's there, parvin.
oh...Im not... @Semiclassical ok...
would some one tell me why it has to be n-m+1 ? why not n-m-1? or n-m simply?
Try an example
17 mins ago, by Semiclassical
The weird example of equivalence principle stuff I remember is this.
17:31
@Ted Do you know the Sylvester-Gallau theorem?
it could be
^1^1^1^
1^1^1
^1^1^1
never claimed it was relevant to the elevator problem, just that it was a weird example of equivalence principle stuff
they are not consecuitive
@Ted Do you know the Sylvester-Gallau theorem?
They want the first one because you could put a defective one at either end @parvin
17:32
@MikeMiller Random-ish question. Is the phrase "Lefschetz thimble" one you've heard before?
why ? @AkivaWeinberger
nope, @MikeM, should I?
@MikeMiller An unknown error has occurred - retry / edit / cancel
@parvin Say D is defective and 1 is functional. The configuration D11111 is possible
as is 11111D
They don't want two defectives next to each other, so no 11DD1D1
The idea is that you can think of putting all the 1's there first, with spaces left over for possible D's
^1^1^1^1^1^
I can see that but I don't see why both ends should have defectives, is it because of the number of them to be enough?
Those aren't defectives, those are empty spaces where defectives could go
17:35
aha
i see :D
thank you !
Hi everyone. I asked a question on Math Educators SE about making students use LaTeX in oral exams: matheducators.stackexchange.com/questions/12623/…
I would really like to know your opinion, @Ted :)
What kind of oral exam is it if you have to write it?
Someone can take pictures of the blackboard :P
Writing about dentistry
I have never made undergraduates learn LaTeX, but I had colleagues at UGA who basically required it.
smacks DogAteMy
Diek Liebhold's answer there convinced me that it does make sense to let the student write down arguments and stuff
17:43
$\begin{matrix}\text{Students should learn LaTeX,}\\\text{just 'cause it's fun to mess with}\end{matrix}$
The only oral exams I ever took were Ph.D. qualifying exams. I've never done oral exams with undergraduates.
I wonder if we could use that font for $\rm emphasis$
@Akiva Lol
@Ted I see
Most students I taught had enough trouble learning the mathematics in the finite amount of time they had.
Fair point
Yeah, don't actually teach them LaTeX and test them in it; it's a class on math, not typography
They should be encouraged to look into it on their own time, though
17:46
But some of my colleagues did require LaTeXing of (some) homeworks. When my students turned in LaTeXed homework, I actually then had to correct their LaTeX (to teach them how to do stuff). Of course I didn't grade on that.
Yeah I guess the basics are pretty easy
It seems easy once you know how to do it, but there's a lot to learn
@Ted You mean that a LaTeX course would take too much time from studying other stuff?
We teach a course in the first semester of the first year, which includes 6x 2 hours of LaTeX
Perhaps it could be inside the first Programming course
17:49
I think it'd be appropriate to have some course that requires them to learn Latex, as part of a broader "mathematical communication" course.
Having a one-credit course on LaTeX and Mathematica isn't a bad idea, but should you require it? I doubt it.
Only if they're going on to grad school, Semiclassic. Although in this day and age, who knows.
I guess.
And we do require students to make a report, a poster, and a presentation in LaTeX
The only reason I know LaTeX is because I use it often on this site
Without consistent use I'd never have really learned it
I've had professors that require usage of either Latex or Word.
17:50
I'd also say it's pretty much required for any course which involves some kind of math research project. But term papers aren't so much a thing in math.
tbf, I think it is just something people learn as a result of using it.
looks at Spanish-speaking world around self, wonders on parallels
@Semiclassical Or formal proofs.
eh. You can write formal proofs on paper.
@Akiva Yes, it's a class of math, but what if LaTeX-typing is better than writing, during an oral exam?
17:51
Apart from that course and the "science communication" course, we never require anyone to use LaTeX for anything.
But you still don't know how to make lists, adjust spacing, get headings right, etc., DogAteMy. At least, not from here.
But I don't think we've ever had a student hand in a bachelor's thesis in something other than LaTeX either.
Yeah. There's layers of skills involved in LaTeX.
LOL, my Ph.D. was done on a typewriter, Steamy. There was no LaTeX back in the 70s and early 80s.
honestly is latex really required?
Word does nice math as well.
17:52
I absolutely detest everything about Word.
I think it is honestly a matter of personal preference
I will not use it.
Word does certain math well enough.
One my my master's thesis' readers showed me his PhD
But Word has a LaTeX equation editor. :)
17:52
Hand-written >.<
@TedShifrin I don't go that far. It has a time and a place.
But it's not anywhere near as flexible as you'd need for a typical thesis.
Word's equation editor has significantly improved the last 10 years or so
LaTeX feels annoying to use if you're using to WYSIWYG
@TedShifrin Of those, I know only how to make lists
and to activate amsmath
But once you've been using it for a while, anything else is annoying :P
17:53
align environment ftw
Can you change the numbering in the lists, adjust spacing, margins, etc., DogAteMy? It's actually nontrivial to learn everything.
You learn LaTeX by using it a lot, and googling what you don't know :P
LaTeX vs. Word is rather similar to the whole Linux v. Windows thing
I actually have 3 or 4 books. I needed them when I started typesetting textbooks, Steamy.
17:54
I am good with LaTeX, but I am also a CS major so i already do a lot of programming.
Also, getting rid of all "warnings" instead of just the "errors" in a LaTeX document is a good way to learn
@Semiclassical Do/did professors make you write (most of) what you said in oral exams?
Inkscape is more annoying to learn than LaTex
to be honest.
17:55
But I haven't had to do a lot of oral exams.
You are lucky if your institution splurges for illustrator.
@SteamyRoot Warning: Contains latex
just steal illustrator
oh, @mike. I asked you earlier but didn't see a response: Is "Lefschetz thimble" a phrase you've heard before?
@Semiclassical Was it Mathematics or was it a mathematical science / Engineering?
17:59
Math for undergrad.
Physics for grad.
Can one steal Illustrator? I bought it years ago when I started books.

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