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16:00
Everything has a Hermitian metric, no need to embed stuff
(pull back the standard Hermitian inner product on $\Bbb C^n$ via trivializations and use partitions of unity)
But you need to embed something somewhere if you want to say the dual bundle embeds in $\Bbb C^n$, is all what I am saying
Yeah
That's right :P
This bit is a bit subtle and specific to the complex case. I can embed $E$ in $\mathbf C^n$, but why does it give an embedding of $E^*$ too? Hmm.
@Danu If $s$ is a section of $E$, define $s^*(p) = \langle - , s(p)\rangle$. Shouldn't this be a holomorphic section?
O(-1) has no hol. sections
16:05
^
whereas O(1) has lots
Well, just $n+1$ independent ones
Only a trivial line bundle and its dual both have sections
remind me what $\mathcal O$ is
O(-1) is the tautological line bundle.
not what I asked; see Danu's original question
16:07
and $\mathcal O(1)$ is its dual
Oh, $\mathcal O$ is trivial
Just $X\times \Bbb C$
he uses the notation $\mathcal O$. certainly by $\mathcal O^{\otimes k}$ you don't mean $\mathcal O(k)$
@Danu the $k$-fold tensor product of the trivial bundle with itself is the trivial bundle.
@MikeMiller Oh, I must've messed something up
if I wrote $\otimes$
I meant $\oplus$; I've corrected the messages now.
he probably meant the rank k trivial bundle
16:08
^
Sorry about that, @Mike
this is too hard
Tell me about it...
@Danu mod power abuse
I resorted to something that should be more straightforward
you should do something easy, like gauge theory
16:09
So if I just have $\mathcal O(-1)$ and $\mathcal O(1)$
I already know how $\mathcal O(-1)$ embeds into the trivial rank $n+1$ bundle
Now I just wanna understand the Hermitian structure induced on it by $\mathcal O(1)$
and why it coincides with restriction of the standard one on $\mathcal O^{\oplus n+1}$
I can explain how to the induced one from $\mathcal O(1)$, if you wanna hear it
@Danu actually, if E embeds in C^n, doesn't Hom(E, C) embed in Hom(C^n, C)?
@BalarkaSen Yeah, tensoring doesn't spoil embedding. That's right
I guess that should help
Thanks :)
Assuming it does help, no problem :)
Now, I just need to see why the dualized Hermitian structure coincides with the one obtained from restricting the one on $\Bbb C^n$
I guess it'd be the best usage of time if I just postpone this for now
I'll make a note of it, and ask Ted, or maybe the PhD student if I see him
maybe try to see it fiberwise. but yeah, don't bother with it if you don't want to
16:16
I don't think I believe you that both a line bundle and its dual embed in $\Bbb C^k$.
I think the dual does, but the original line bundle (with many sections) does not.
@MikeMiller Hmm. That thought scares me
But it may well be true.
The projections onto each factor should give holomorphic sections of the dual bundle.
Which like you said, shouldn't exist.
@MikeMiller I'm not sure what that means :P
If $\iota: E \to \Bbb C^k$ is a holomorphic bundle map, and $p_i$ is projection of $\Bbb C^k \to \Bbb C$ onto the $i$th factor, then $p_i \iota$ is a map $E \to \Bbb C$. Aka, a section of the dual bundle.
And since everything we did was holomorphic, that should be holomorphic.
On the other hand, this idea inspires me. Let $s_i$ be the sections of $E$. Define $E^* \to \Bbb C^k$ by $\varphi \mapsto (\varphi(s_1), \varphi(s_2), \dots, \varphi(s_k))$.
That should be precisely the embedding you want.
Hmm
16:20
sounds right!
the holomorphic category is too hard.
@MikeMiller Yes, sounds right to me too. Sick.
Nowhere zero for injectivity
Now I just need the Hermitian structure stuff
I wonder why the previous one didn't work for $E$.
I don't know what your previous attempt was.
I defined the exact same map for $E\to \Bbb C^k$.
You probably built a complex linear but antiholomorphic embedding or something.
The exact same map is not a map out of E.
16:24
You were using trivializations in your map, Balarka
ah, no I see what I messed. I defined $v \mapsto (s_1(v), \cdots, s_n(v))$, where $s_k(v) = 0$ if $v$ is not in $B \setminus \{s_k = 0\}$.
that may well be zero on all factors.
I do have the condition that not all $s_i$'s vanish simultaneously
Yes, but eg there might be some $v$ such that $s_1, s_2$ etc vanish and all the others vanish because $v$ is not in $U_k$'s.
But I still don't understand what you mean by your map being the same as Mike's
Oh, okay.
I see no reason that this is even continuous.
16:26
It's more or less the same idea, @Danu.
"take products of things, and that becomes an embedding"
In your chosen holomorphic trivialization of the bundle over $U_i$, there's no reason to believe $s_i(v)$ doesn't go to infinity as the basepoint goes towards the boundary.
true, true.
The usual fix for real case is to multiply with a bump function, which is of course not allowed here
@MikeMiller But no, I don't believe this. How can $s_i$ go towards infinity near it's zero set?
@MikeMiller: Thank you for the answer. Someone just convinced me that this is not true (about my earlier question about eigenvectors)
Counter example is multiplication with (1+t) on L^2([0,1])
16:46
Thanks for your feedback about 'More calculations about complementary factors for the Riemann's...' @user1952009
@Balarka There's no reason to believe the trivialization is isometric with respect to the Hermitian inner product.
@ThomasRot Good point.
@Balarka: And whatever you do the $s_i$ are not holomorphic.
My construction didn't actually involve any Hermitian inner product. I just took the trivializations outside the complement of $s_k = 0$ and multiplied them together. I thought $s_i$ were holomorphic sections?
It's probably futile to talk about a failed construction though, so feel free to stop conversing if you want.
@Balarka Your trivialization don't preserve the "size" of s_i. There's absolutely no reason that in these trivializations, the s_i die near "infinity".
Try to explicitly carry this out for O(1).
on CP1
@MikeMiller ah, ok
17:01
Dear guys what symbol is this, I've been searching for almost 2hours
The command is \eta. You can find these symbols using the awesome website detexify (google it)
My god, oh neptune, thank you so much!!
there you can draw a symbol, and it will give you the latex code
I've used google search before via upload, but it couldn't find it..
Also, on any post on math.stackexchange you can click edit to see the raw latex code
17:03
you can also right-click any symbols generated by mathjax
(the output, not the source)
and then that'll give you a drop-down menu that includes an option for the MathJax source
My report mentor was angry this morning COZ I REPLACE IT WITH n LOL
like n(k)
if I had to pick an alphabet replacement for \eta, it'd be h
for the silly reason that Esc-h-Esc gives eta in Mathematica
Esc-n-Esc gives nu instead
noooo idea why
(interestingly, there's no standard greek equivalent for h. closest is something called "heta", which i guess is one reason to use it for eta?)
@ThomasRot I liked your note about orientations.
@ThomasRot It didn't recognize my drawing of $\xi$ :(
@MikeMiller: Thanks
@Lozansky: it's not perfect but helps sometimes.
17:20
@Semiclassic: Cuz nu is Greek for 'n' :)
Lots of languages have no 'h' — in French, it's never aspirate, common part of diphthongs, yes, otherwise virtually unpronounced. None in Russian. Yes in German.
Heya tern!
Hi @Ted
I just remembered I have to grade 3 assignments today. I needed today to do work.
:(
Hi @Balarka, g'night @MikeM ... So much for procrastination
Three assignments = 3 papers? Or a class of papers in three subjects?
17:26
That's how I feel like when I have to spend the day doing schoolwork instead of math.
It's tough not being emperor of the world, isn't it, Balarka?
More reasons to set Trump as an idol, eh?
Precisely.
@AndrewThompson 30 papers per week from three weeks.
Oh that sucks.
17:29
Good thing you're not grading for me. I would have gotten you fired for not returning each week's in a timely fashion.
/rant
I want to show that if $f(z)$ has a pole of order $m$ at $z=0$ then $f(z^2)$ has a pole of order $2m$ at $z=0$
Hope that justifies it for you.
I expressed my regrets about that a while ago, and I'm sorry. But stop chatting.
I can't remove.
@Lozansky: So what's your problem?
Would it suffice to look at $g(z)=1/f(z)$ , claim that $g$ has $m$ zeros and that $g(z^2)$ would then by some nice theorem have $2m$ zeros?
Do you know about Laurent series?
17:34
Yeah
How do you define order of a pole using those?
$$\sum_{j=-m}^{\infty} a_jz^{2j}$$
Ah, well, then, aren't you done?
Am... I?
Well, you didn't answer my question ... from the Laurent series, what tells you the order of the pole?
17:35
I only know that if $a_{-m} \neq 0$ we have a pole of order $m$
The lowest (negative) term with a nonzero coefficient.
Right
Well
OK, and then you told me the Laurent series for $f(z^2)$.
What's the lowest order term that appears?
17:37
$a_{-m}z^{-2m}$
And what's the power on $z$?
$-2m$
Hence ...
Huh
Well that's neat
I somehow got confused by the fact that we wouldn't have $2m$ terms with negative exponents
yeah, that is irrelevant. :)
$z^{-3} + e^z$ still has a pole of order $3$ at $0$.
17:39
Yeah we only have to look at the lowest order term
Righto.
Neato
Doing your $1/f(z)$ thing will amount to the same argument.
I think I'll ponder on some S-W classes today instead of diffgeom.
But then I would want to express $1/f(z)$ as a power/Taylor series?
17:41
right ... but then you have to note that you have a Taylor series at $0$ because the singularity is removable.
I prefer just looking at the Laurent series, myself. :)
Oh okay
Would we say $x/x$ has a (removable) singularity at $x=0$?
So when someones write $x/x = 1$ I would say "That's not quite correct"
Right, domains are different.
$$\sum_{j=k}^{\infty} a_j(z-z_0)^j + \sum_{j=-\infty}^{\infty} b_j(z-z_0)^j = \sum_{j=-\infty}^{\infty} b_j(z-z_0)^j+u_{k}a_j(z-z_0)^j$$
17:45
Huh?
I arrived at this expression earlier while adding a function that has a pole of order $k$ at $z_0$ and a function that has an essential singularity at $z_0$
$u_k$ is the heaviside function
You can't use Heaviside functions in complex analysis.
Damn it
And your first sum should start at $j=-k$.
What's the notation for the tautological bundle on $\text{Grass}(k, n)$?
17:46
$k$ is a negative integer
You write the formula as $\sum\limits_{j=-\infty}^\infty c_j(z-z_0)^j$, where $c_j = b_j$ for $j<k$ and $c_j=a_j+b_j$ for $j\ge k$.
I usually write $E$, @Balarka, and $Q$ for the quotient tautological bundle.
Oh yeah that makes a lot more sense
So it's clear that the sum has an essential singularity at $z_0$
As long as you know there are infinitely many nonzero negative coefficients, @Lozansky.
I do because $k \neq -\infty$
@TedShifrin Sounds good, but that leaves the $k$ and $n$ implicit :)
17:49
If you're working on a fixed Grassmannian, it's understood, @Balarka. If not, add notation.
Fair enough.
Well, yes, @Lozansky, and because there are infinitely many nonzero $b_j$ for $j<0$.
Also, I'm only one week late.
18:05
@TedShifrin If $f$ has a pole at $z_0$ and $g$ has an essential singularity at $z_0$, would that mean $f \cdot g$ has an essential singularity at $z_0$?
I look at the product of the Laurent series and would guess that is the case
Even if $f$ is analytic, it's true.
Right
@MikeMiller You were TAing manifolds, right?
So can I say $$\sum_{j=-k}^{\infty} a_j(z-z_0)^j \cdot \sum_{j=-\infty}^{\infty} b_j(z-z_0)^j = \sum_{j=-\infty}^{\infty} c_j(z-z_0)^{j}$$ where $c_j$ is the Cauchy product between $f$ and $g$?
Or do $f$ and $g$ have to be Taylor series?
@AndrewThompson Still am.
18:10
Which text are they following?
@TedShifrin Ugh, can I just say that multiplying any term from the Laurent series of $f$ with $g$ produces a function with an essential singularity at $z_0$?
@AndrewThompson Not really anything. The professor's notes.
Keep track of certain terms you know are nonzero, @Lozansky.
That's tough for a course like that, assuming it's an intro to manifolds.
@TedShifrin Any nonzero term from the Laurent series of $f$
18:14
No .... you could in general get cancellations.
@TedShifrin I wouldn't know how to manipulate the product of those sums other than using the Cauchy product
@AndrewThompson Meh.
There aren't any good books, IMO. And the beginning of such a course is always boring.
It is. Let me FB you the book we use for that course (written by the prof often teaching it)
Yeah, @Lozansky, let me think.
I think I learnt more about manifolds talking to people than reading a specific textbook (although G&P is the only book I tried to seriously read which is about smooth manifolds, and I like it a lot).
18:22
@Lozansky, I think this has to be done more qualitatively.
@TedShifrin Sure, any hints?
Do you know how to distinguish among analytic, pole, and essential singularity in terms of what the mapping does near the point?
@TedShifrin Not really, my book doesn't really cover that
Analytic singularity := removable singularity?
Eyyyyyo
@TedShifrin Long time no see :P
Analytic means the function is locally bounded, pole means $|f(z)|\to\infty$ nearby, essential singularity means the values of $f$ are dense in $\Bbb C$ nearby.
hi @Danu ... not really that long.
18:25
What kind of goals do you set when you all study mathematics?
Do you strictly just solve problems because I'm experiencing analysis paralysis at the moment.
@TedShifrin I know
But I have lots of questions and it leaves me with a strange longing for TED
wth is analysis paralysis
:D
@0celo7 Your status one year ago :D
@TedShifrin I don't know what dense means. But I know that essential singularity means the modolus of the function is unbounded but does not approach infinity
18:26
@Lozansky: It gets arbitrarily close to any particular complex number.
Except possibly one
No, no, it gets close.
Okay, it assumes every complex number
I'm not talking Picard Theorems here.
Except possibly one
Oh okay
18:27
@Danu If it's being stuck on hard analysis problems, that's my status right now
Well there you go
One year ago it was paralysis from not knowing analysis
You are familiar with all kinds
@TedShifrin Are you taking questions, oh my lord?
I'm asking becuase mine seem to always take up an hour or more of your time :P
Wasn't planning on being around too long.
What question?
18:28
So ehh
I'm getting to the cool parts of the book
I've still got some old questions about the Albanese torus, but screw that I'll talk to someone else about that, or you if they can't answer my questions
But seriously , when you study mathematics do you just solve problems and exercises only? Because I have trouble concentrating when I read math unless I'm already familiarized with some concepts in the text.
Right now, I'm onto hermitian vector bundles
@TedShifrin So we multiply one function whose modolus will approach infinity with one that gets arbitrarily close to any particular complex number
And I've encountered the following exercise:
@Lozansky: You can reduce the pole case to the analytic case by multiplying by some fixed $z^m$.
18:29
Mmm.. $(z-z_0)^m$ you mean?
Right
Although it's not really necessary, I guess.
Let $L$ be a (holo.) line bundle globally generated by global sections $s_1,\dots,s_n$. Then show that the Hermitian structure induced on $L^*$ by dualizing coincides with that induced by restricting the standard Hermitian structure on $\mathcal O^{\oplus n}$. That it embeds into $\mathcal O^{\oplus n}$ is something I've already asked Mike and Balarka about.
Mike eventually solved it. So I get that part. So I just need to understand why the two Hermitian structures agree.
It doesn't embed. The manifold embeds into some $\Bbb P^n$ (or $n-1$?) using your sections.
@TedShifrin Alright so $(z-z_0)^mf(z)$ has a removable singularity if $f$ has a pole of order $m$ at $z_0$
@TedShifrin $n$ is what you're talking about (Veronese map, right?)
18:32
Right, @Lozansky, and clearly if you multiply that by a function with an essential singularity you still have an essential singularity, because the modulus of that is locally bounded.
But $L^*$ does in fact embed into $\mathcal O^{\oplus n}_X$, I think...
No, no Veronese. Using your sections.
@TedShifrin have you ever had a student write "I don't like this proof, but it was the only one I could find" on homework
@TedShifrin Oh woops
I know what map you mean
It just comes right before Veronese in the book :P
Not really, 0celo.
18:32
ample line bundles something something
Yeah exactly
Very ample, in this case.
That's it Balarka
@TedShifrin Okay, is it legal to multiply with $(z-z_0)^m$?
But @TedShifrin I think $L^*$ does embed by the map Mike gave
18:33
Sure, @Lozansky, that can't alter the nature of an essential singularity.
2 hours ago, by Mike Miller
On the other hand, this idea inspires me. Let $s_i$ be the sections of $E$. Define $E^* \to \Bbb C^k$ by $\varphi \mapsto (\varphi(s_1), \varphi(s_2), \dots, \varphi(s_k))$.
Without it embedding the entire exercise doesn't even make sense :\
@TedShifrin No but it does alter the nature of the other function :(
It's the product you're trying to understand, @Lozansky. Don't lose sight.
Okay so clearly the product $h(z) = (z-z_0)^m f(z) g(z)$ has an essential singularity at $z_0$
In any case, I assume the Hermitian structure induced on the dual by dualizing is given by taking $(x,z^*)$ and $(x,w^*)$ and just using $\langle z,w\rangle$ (we already have a Hermitian structure on $L$)
18:35
How does that lead us to say that $f(z)g(z)$ has an essential singularity at $z_0$?
Well, ok, @Danu. I guess this is what we get from $0\to \mathscr O(-1)\to \mathscr O^{n+1} \to Q\to 0$ on $\Bbb P^n$, anyhow.
Think about it, @Lozansky.
Good point ^
@TedShifrin Ah, you mean after embedding into $\Bbb P^n$?
That's smart.
But what is $Q$? The tangent bundle tiwsted by $\mathcal O(-1)$?
Universal quotient bundle. Needn't worry about tangent bundle.
Well okay so $h(z)$ has an essential singularity at $z_0$. Then we can add any number of poles at $z_0$ and still say the function has an essential singularity at $z_0$
18:37
I'm not sure what those words mean. Do you mean just "the thing that makes this exact"?
Okay.
@Lozansky: Multiplication by $(z-z_0)^{\pm k}$ just shifts indices.
But it is in fact $\mathcal T_{\Bbb P^n}(-1)$ in this case :)
I'm not sure how this would yield the same map, though.
I think he's talking about an arbitrary variety inside P^n
18:38
@TedShifrin But the index will still start at $-\infty$ ?
So what, @Lozansky?
@BalarkaSen Wait, the Euler sequence on $\Bbb P^n$ inducing such a sequence for any subvariety, or something like that?
Yes, I believe there's a more general exact sequence for any subvariety.
@TedShifrin So then the product $(z-z_0)^mh(z)$ has an essential singularity
okay, I didn't know that.
18:41
Any submanifold, @Balarka. I mentioned that ages ago.
But we don't need any of that.
So once you map injectively to the trivial bundle, use the hermitian inner product on $\Bbb C^n$ to induce one on the image of your bundle, hence on sections of the bundle.
@TedShifrin Is my reasoning correct?
Now how do you use a hermitian inner product on $\mathscr L$ to define one on $\mathscr L^*$?
8 mins ago, by Danu
In any case, I assume the Hermitian structure induced on the dual by dualizing is given by taking $(x,z^*)$ and $(x,w^*)$ and just using $\langle z,w\rangle$ (we already have a Hermitian structure on $L$)
Hello!!
Yes, @Lozansky, and hence $h(z)$ has. I'm lost in what you're doing. Too much going on.
18:43
Let's consider that question done then :P
I don't think that will transform right, @Danu.
You have to think about transition functions.
What kind of subfield does $\mathbb{Q}[a]$ have?
But you never explicitly wrote down the definition you had in mind, @Danu, did you?
Guess that depends on what $a$ is, doesn't it, @MaryStar?
@TedShifrin Neither did Huybrechts :\
Well, think about how you do the hermitian inner product on $\mathscr L$ in a trivialization and how it transforms according to the transition functions?
18:46
We have that $a\in \mathbb{C}$, that satisfies the condition $a^4=2a^2+1$. @TedShifrin
That doesn't look very irreducible, @MaryStar.
Oh, yeah, it does, I guess.
So what's $[\Bbb Q[a]:\Bbb Q]$?
@TedShifrin I just tried to reason in analogy with e.g. this mathoverflow.net/questions/54781/…
I'm not going chasing links.
Just a link that talks about inducing an inner product on cotangent bundle via the one on the tangent bundle
through the musical isomorphism thing
I have show that the polynomial $f(x)=x^4-2x^2-1$ is irreducible in $\mathbb{Q}$, so $[\mathbb{Q}[a]:\mathbb{Q}]=\deg f=4$, right? @TedShifrin
18:49
Right, @MaryStar. So once you know $4$, what does that tell you? How do you find an intermediate field?
I thought it should be analogous to this since I view Hermitian structures on vector bundles as a generalization of Hermitian structures on manifolds (i.e. on tangent bundles)
Sure. I stand by my transition function comment, nevertheless.
Okay.
That's how you make sure something works in a well-defined way. If you have a global intrinsic definition (which you never told me), you can still check.
So the Hermitian product in a trivialization is $h_x(\psi_x^{-1}-,\psi_x^{-1}-)$ right
@TedShifrin I said Huybrechts didn't give a definition of how it works on the dual
18:51
You're supposed to give one, not him.
Well, my first proposal was my attempt at that :P
OK. I don't know what those symbols mean or where anyone lives.
The intermediate field, say $K$, has to satisfy the following:
$[K:\mathbb{Q}]=\{1,2,4\}$
or not? @TedShifrin
If you want it truly intermediate, what do you need, @MaryStar?
$[K:\mathbb{Q}]=2$ @TedShifrin
18:52
I never saw a definition, @Danu. If you gave me one, give it to me again, please.
Right, @MaryStar. Now what can you think of in $\Bbb Q[a]$ that has degree 2?
Okay, so you wanted me to tell you how a Hermitian structure acts in a trivialization. So let $x\in X$ and let $\psi$ be a trivialization of $L\cong U\times \Bbb C$ around $x$. Then $h_x(\psi_x^{-1}-,\psi^{-1}_x-)$ is a Hermitian scalar product on $\Bbb C$. By definition it should vary smoothly with $x$.
OK. And so what happens on overlaps?
So let me modify the notation a bit: We have triv's $\psi_1,\psi_2$ and a transition function $\psi_{21}$ from $U_1$ to $U_2$. Then I guess we must have $h_x(\psi_{2,x}^{-1}-,\psi_{2,x}^{-1}-)=h_x((\psi_{21,x}\psi_{1,x})^{-1}-,(\psi_‌​{{21,x}}\psi_{1,x})^{-1}-)$
please help me improve this terrible notation haha
Woops
Correction incoming (for inverses!)
A hermitian inner product on a line bundle is just given by a scalar function, of course, in a trivialization.
How do those scalar functions transform?
Note your $\psi_{21}$ is just a nonzero holomorphic function here.
Yes
It shouldn't be affected by the transition function
18:59
Huh?

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