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16:00
@r9m I think you'd be interested in this one math.stackexchange.com/questions/1807357/…
@Semiclassical I learnt some quantum mechanics while learning chemistry.
In high school? :P
@Semiclassical Ah, this SUSY localization stuff?
someone has an idea ? said: Still stuck on the following problem : Let $f:\Bbb{R}^2\to \Bbb{R}^2$ be a $1-$Lipschitz function, how can I prove, the $n-$th iterated function noted as $f^n$, that $f^n/n$ converges.
I tried to prove that $(f^n/n)$ is a Cauchy sequence
16:03
@balarka ahh, nice.
@danu yeah. not that i could ever understnd it
Oh, me neither :D
(for the coming few years...)
I got interested in it when I was interested in spin coherent states
@Semiclassical I don't understand this business.
r9m
r9m
@user1618033 hehe ... Popoviciu and family perhaps .. maybe .. I'm not sure ;) .. I see Vasc has already bombed it with Karamata in that linked paper
So tell me about QM @BalarkaSen
16:06
Yeah, I'm curious what QM you picked up as well.
chemistry largely being applications of QM + E&M + StatMech/Thermo
(which, of course, is a bit like saying engineering is largely 'just' applied classical mechanics. doesn't mean i could build something without it falling down.)
@r9m Also an interesting paper by Vasile Cirtoaje (Romania).
@Semiclassical even I did traces of QM in chem while I did chemical bonding . Orbitals, quantum numbers
yeah. it's definitely there
I wonder why this post (question) had no downvote ... (I mention that I don't downvote users here - but compared with my questions that are often downvoted here, I'm sure this should have got some downvotes) - math.stackexchange.com/questions/1774602/…
Planck said $E = h\nu$
Bohr had something to say too
de Broglie explained by $\lambda = h/p$
and Heisenberg formulated his principle of uncertainity
Then Sommerfeld introduced his model of atom
which seemed to appeal to everyone
At last Schroedinger wrote down his equation
hip-hip-hooray for the wave function!
That's a summary of what I know.
16:13
a lot of good answers slip through the cracks @user1618033
We were just told about Schrödinger equation that it gives the first there quantum numbers as its solution . I have no clue about the fourth quantum number
history of quantum mechanics is an interesting subject.
@BalarkaSen lol
You forgot Einstein ;)
Photoelectric effect!!
@Semiclassical the history of anything interesting is interesting, period. ;)
16:15
lol, true
^ Cheers to that
and sometimes the history of boring things can be interesting :p
He explained the photoelectric effect using Planck's thing tho, I think?
Yeah, but he was the first one to take it seriously, as a physical thing. That EM waves come in "packages"
Mostly because people tend to be interesting, even when they do boring things.
16:16
@BalarkaSen if by "Planck's thing" you mean the insight that light also comes in chunks, then yes.
Quantum mechanics seems fun
Quantum theory = neat!
Quantum mechanics = awesome
Quantum mysticism = DIE IN A FIRE
In math, the continuous is often easier to do than the discrete (e.g. the formulae of difference calculus can sometimes be more awkward-looking than the analogous formulae for continuous calculus); that's why it's convenient to treat things in physics as continuous, unless forced by nature to do otherwise. Hence, QM.
(i don't like quantum bullshit.)
$\newcommand{\Integers}{\Bbb Z}$ Does this sentence make sense to you guys: "[...] where $\Lambda_\Integers[\alpha_1,\dots,\alpha_n]$ denotes the exterior ($\Integers$)-algebra over $\{\alpha_1,\dots,\alpha_n\}$."
Or is the wording off?
16:19
Most people who use the word "quantum" don't realize how mundane it actually means. ;)
@J.M. But he never really understood/accepted that
I'll consider very well returning here after seeing that Ramanujan picture has only one star on such a place. This annoys me more than any stupid thing addressed to me during the time.
i think that really underestimates how weird quantum is.
Maybe I should post some pictures of the people I think are great
16:20
@Danu Yes, his turnaround in later years struck me as peculiar, too.
@J.M. That's the only thing of Planck I know in QM.
@J.M. I don't think it was a turnaround---he was pretty much the ultimate "classical physicist"
(but feel free to prove me wrong on History of Science and Mathematics (shameless advertisement))
@r9m Ramanujan's picture only one star here? Pfff
@Danu ROFL. I'm far away from my books, and my memory can get hazy at times. :D (I think The Rise of the New Physics has the complete tale.)
@Semiclassical I would say that the weirdness comes out of trying to conclude things from the assumption that stuff comes in chunks, not that the things themselves are in chunks.
@Semiclassical Could you answer my question please?
16:25
So, I don't understand the uncertainty principle. I can understand that $\sigma_x \cdot \sigma_p$ is always greater than some positive constant, but why $h/4\pi$ in particular? The same $h$ that appears in $E = h\nu$? I can't make the connection.
@J.M. Eh. that doesn't get to the weirdness of things like Bell's inequality.
@r9m do you know where I could order from India a picture of Ramanujan? I planned to buy one for a long period of time. Any recommandation?
I am probably asking for a -- at least moral -- derivation of the principle.
@Semiclassical Okay, I'll grant that. And maybe EPR too.
@BalarkaSen Well, dimensionally, it has to be the same $h$. $\sigma_x\sigma_p$ has units of m * (kg m/s) = J s
16:28
Sure.
But that doesn't really satisfy me :)
Oh, @Balarka is still (barely?) alive!
hi @Semiclassic
I am. I have been seriously ill for the last few days.
and hi, @Danu, @J.M.
@LeakyNun well, did you see my point re: their magnetic fields?
16:30
Well, the $4\pi$ accounts for space.
hey @Ted.
Space?
@J.M. um, in 1D?
You really need to take better care of yourself, Balarka, seriously, but I hope you're on the mend. Lots of sleep and fluids.
@Semiclassical That is one point, but to fair, that question could have also been closed without no problem. Just look at my closed questions for a small comparison. In general, from my posts one can learn a lot by working on the question.
@Semiclassical You said "hmm. the currents will also produce magnetic fields." and "and if memory serves, those induced magnetic fields will cause those two loops to attract one another"
"more generally, two parallel wires will attract one another due to the magnetic fields they produce"
16:31
right.
Yeah, think I am recovering a bit.
r9m
r9m
@user1618033 no ideas :( ... there is a Ramanujan Museum in Chennai (but never had time to visit it .. :( .. )
@Semiclassical which did not answer my question
@Semiclassical okay, I misremembered; the factor is actually half of Dirac's constant, so yes, just 1D. Sorry about that. :D
I walked into Physics Day in MSE?
16:32
@TedShifrin Physics is just applied mathematics
well, your question was along the lines of arguing that the two wires should repel each other
Well, my physicist friends would beg to differ on that :)
and my point is that even that part isn't really true.
r9m
r9m
@TedShifrin g' Morning prof :)
Dirac's constant is just a name for $h/2\pi$...
16:33
Hi @r9m
$\hbar$?
plus, the wire would be electrically neutral. the electrons would be in motion, but the nuclei wouldn't be.
Right.
@BalarkaSen the convenience of Dirac is that it accounts for "circular" stuff like spin.
@Semiclassical which would make the electrons pack tighter?
16:34
I thought moving objects shrink in distance
@LeakyNun "like repels like". ;)
I don't know about that. I thought it was just to write $mvr = nh/2\pi$ in Bohr's thing easily.
@J.M. not in currents, in currents like attracts like
@LeakyNun right, due to their induced magnetic fields
so where is the fault in my thinking
16:35
@BalarkaSen note that $E=h\nu =\hbar \omega$ where $\omega=2\pi \nu$
@Semiclassical the first thing about magnetic fields: they do not exist.
...what?
they are just the interactions of electrons caused by relativity
@Balarka and $\omega$ tends to be more convenient in applications.
@Semiclassical so let's get back to the main question
in the lab view, aren't the electrons moving?
16:37
sure.
so their distance shrink?
@r9m this one should be great for one of my walls in the room
@Semiclassical ah, alright . I was about to write "because of the trivial fact that any real number, divided by itself, is 1. noted :P", so good thing I noted the second message. :)
which distance? the average separation between them?
yes
@BalarkaSen $0$ is a real number.
r9m
r9m
16:38
@user1618033 cool! :-)
division is ill-defined for 0 so the statement doesn't make sense for 0 anyway
not sure where you're going with that, but it is true that the density of electrons in the lab frame would be different than that in the electron frame.
@Semiclassical so the wires should both be negative?
@LeakyNun Not a net negative charge. There's still the positively charged ions which make up the wire.
This one is also nice ...
16:41
@Semiclassical Yes, but the negative charges are denser than the positive charges...
Ok, let's say they are indeed both neutral. They how do they attract each other?
In the lab frame, it's the induced magnetic fields.
I thought magnetic fields don't exist.
Then you're wrong.
I thought magnetic field is just a concept to describe how the motions of electrons make them attract/repel each other
16:43
Interesting quote.
@LeakyNun so light is just an electric field and some other thing perpendicular to it?
@J.M. What is to the magnetic field as electron is to the electric field?
You're assuming there has to be a direct correspondence.
(and if magnetic monopoles existed, there would be)
So what is the magnetic field, basically?
a field in space, created either by changing electric fields or by steady electric currents, which acts on moving charges and which, if it isn't static, generates electric fields
If you don't like that answer, ask yourself what an electric field is.
16:47
An abstract concept.
Alright, back to our main question.
right. and so is the magnetic field. doesn't change the fact that it matters experimentally.
Isn't the electron density higher than the nucleus density in the lab view?
I don't think so. Could be wrong about that, but here's why I wouldn't expect so
suppose I have a wire that doesn't have a voltage applied to it.
that, at the very least, should be electrically neutral.
What you're arguing is that, if a voltage is applied, then the fact that the electrons are moving would mean that their density increases and therefore you have a net negative charge.
16:50
Yes.
But where did that charge come from?
Charge is conserved, so it has to come from somewhere.
@TedShifrin Heyo
@TedShifrin Hello
We're talking physics here now?!
Hi @Albas
16:51
In a way maybe it is somewhat natural not to star Ramanujan because you don't understand Ramanujan, and hence no idea how great this guy was/**is**.
@Semiclassical Why doesn't the same apply when you're in the electron's perspective?
So it would seem.
It does. But then you're in its perspective and not in the lab frame.
@Semiclassical Come on, any real theorist knows that they exist.
@Danu yeah, as opposed to whatever you call the stuff in the h bar
@Semiclassical So in the electron's perspective, charges don't need to be conserved?
16:51
@MikeMiller I call it "0celo7" ;)
@Danu I'm trying to think of a polite way to say "F*** off" to that :p
@Semiclassical hehehe
Magnetic monopoles or NO GUT
What I meant was that the statement about electron density increasing does apply from the rotating point of view.
bad monopole
But then the nuclei are also rotating from that perspective.
And so their density will also increase.
16:52
Back to my work. It's a loss of time to talk here about Ramanujan.
^indeed
@MikeMiller Good monopole
Shall I bring up my uncertainty principle question again, or am I to assume nobody cares?
@Semiclassical wait... rotating?!
Classical electromagnetism doesn't require monopoles GTFO
derp
^classical nice things do
16:53
Not too sure, @Balarka.
@BalarkaSen Go for it
@LeakyNun ugh, I'm being silly. I was envisioning a circular coil
Got mixed up with my example from earlier
29 mins ago, by Balarka Sen
So, I don't understand the uncertainty principle. I can understand that $\sigma_x \cdot \sigma_p$ is always greater than some positive constant, but why $h/4\pi$ in particular? The same $h$ that appears in $E = h\nu$? I can't make the connection.
@LeakyNun so rotating should just be 'moving'
16:55
@Semiclassical Both the electron density and the nucleus density increase, from the electron's point of view?
I don't actually understand the relationship between the Bogolmony and SW equations. Maybe a physicist can enlighten me
In a reference frame that's moving with the electron, yeah.
hi all
@Semiclassical Well... they why does the wire have a net negative charge from the electron's point of view?
hi @TedShifrin
16:57
@BalarkaSen From experiment it is found that if you consider, say, an electron passing through a cloud of gas, if you measure it's position at one instant, and then try to measure it's position at the next instant, you will find it in some random place, and no amount of accuracy of measurement, or shortness in the amount of time between successive measurements, will allow you to draw out a smooth path along which the electron follows.
After using the "generalized uncertainty principle":
$$ \sigma_A^2\sigma_B^2\geq \bigg(\frac{1}{2i}\langle [\hat A,\hat B]\rangle \bigg)^2 $$ the question just reduces to "why are commutators proportional to $\hbar$?"
It doesn't. If I said it did earlier, I misspoke.
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle simply says "There is no concept of the path of a particle"
@Semiclassical They why is the electron repelled?
I know what the uncertainity principle says conceptually.
16:57
@BalarkaSen sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/Uncertainty.htm this might help
That wasn't my question.
@Adeek Howdy.
@BalarkaSen Who are you replying to? Bolb?
I have been super productive lately :D
That simple statement destroys all of classical mechanics, because the mechanical state of a system is specified by position and velocity, and you need both to specify a path
16:58
quite happy with that
@Danu Yes.
For one, it's not. It's attracted. And the point is that now, from the electron's POV, the nuclei are all moving as well.
@bolbteppa It is still accurate to a sufficient extent.
And so now those nuclei also comprise a current and produce a magnetic field.
@Semiclassical I derped. I meant attract. Why are the electrons attracted?
16:58
I watched first half of your videos @TedShifrin and reading john lee manifolds book.
very nice
@Danu I am confused about the notations.
I don't think there is any fundamental reason why commutators, numerically, have to be on the order of $\hbar$---I think that physics does not abruptly change if $\hbar$ is changed by a factor 10 or so
Is that, like, the covariance?
@Adeek: All the manifolds and differential forms stuff is in the second half :P
@BalarkaSen $\sigma$'s are standard deviations
16:59
Yeah, I meant, the commutator.
$\langle, \rangle$ are expectation values
Yeah I will complete your videos in a month I watch 3 a day
@TedShifrin

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