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00:04
"If I were to be stranded on an island, wanted to understand the beauty and intricacies of the modern study of smooth 4-manifolds, and were allowed to take only one reference, the book under review would most certainly be my choice."
00:21
That reviewer certainly has his stuck-on-an-island-priorities straight.
00:56
agreed
Hi
I asked a question about integral representation at main ( my last question )
Here it is
0
Q: Integral representation $f(x) = \lim_{n = \infty} \sum_1^n \ln(n)^2 + n \ln(x)^2 - \sum_1^n \ln(x+n)^2$?

mickLet $x>1$ be a real variable. $$f(x) = \lim_{n = \infty} \sum_1^n \ln(n)^2 + n \ln(x)^2 - \sum_1^n \ln(x+n)^2$$ Is there an integral representation for $f(x)$ that uses no $\sum$ , named polynomials nor non-analytic functions ? ( so no " cheap" Floor function or Sum in the integrand ) Notice t...

01:31
Hello anyone knows about tangents and normals to curves?
0
Q: Normal and tangent vectors to a curve

BosniaAssume we have a displacement field $u=u(x,z)=(u_x(x,z), u_z(x,z)))$ which takes the point $R=(x,z)$ to $r=R+u=(x+u_x(x,z), z+u_z(x,z))$. We want to find the tangent and normal to the curve which was $z=0$ before applying the displacement. This new curve is given by: $$r=(x+u_x(x,0),0+u_z(x,0))$$...

01:53
Nice facial expression near 41:32 here.
So this is what it was like to take a course with Gauss
hey @BalarkaSen
in the proof of the barycentric subdivision I have two question
or Excision theorem
why can we uniquely designate a linear map by [w_0,...,w_n]
?
Glad you corrected that because I was about to object as there is no theorem known as "the barycentric subdivision" ;)
@Adeek I don't know what you are referencing to. Context?
02:04
1 sec
why can we uniquely designate a linear map by $[w_0,...,w_n]$
Well by definition a linear map $f : \Delta^n \to Y$ satisfies $f(a + b) = f(a) + f(b)$ and $f(ca) = cf(a)$. Now write down any $v \in \Delta^n$ as linear combination of the vertices ('cause $\Delta^n$ is just the convex hull on the vertices) and work it out.
This is algebra, should be up on your line of thought. Not sure what's unclear about it.
yes yes
I have one last question
why do we get that those terms lie in $C_N^U(X)$
I understand that first one lie in $C_N^U(X)$ by definition
What terms are you referencing to?
$D_{m(\sigma)}(\partial \sigma) - D(\partial(\sigma))$
02:20
Well, as Hatcher explains, $D_{m(\sigma)}(\partial \sigma) - D(\partial \sigma)$ is a linear combination of $D_{m(\sigma)}(\sigma_i) - D_{m(\sigma_i)}(\sigma_i)$ where $\sigma_i$ are restrictions of $\sigma$ to the faces of $\Delta^n$. Now if $\sigma$ fits into $U$ after $m(\sigma)$ barycentric subdivisions, so will $\sigma_i$. Thus $m(\sigma_i) \leq m(\sigma)$.
So if you write out $D_{m(\sigma)}(\sigma_i) - D_{m(\sigma_i)}(\sigma_i)$ explicitly (use the definition), you'll get terms of the form $TS^k(\sigma_i)$ with $k \geq m(\sigma_j)$, because things below that will cancel out. These fit in $U$.
oh I see
ok good
good good
@Adeek So, have you done any exercises from chapter 2.1. so far?
I will today
OK. There are quite a few challenging ones there. Let me know if you want to know which ones are.
I need pro advice
02:34
yeah
that would be awesome
can you give me the ones which are challenging
I wrote a problem, it asks for something with $n=2016$. Unfortunately a lot of calculations are needed, how can we reduce the calculations without losing style?
I thought of changing 2016 for 216 but that looks desperate
I am so sleepy
dunno why
7, 8, 10, 18, 23, 26.
I slept today like 7 hrs
alright great
But of course you should do the easier ones first, because if you can't do those there's no way you can approach these.
02:38
yes
By easier I mean relatively easier. People find most of Hatcher's problems hard.
But there's always something to learn from them.
No at first I found hatcher hard but now I find it very nice
it is just it is different than other books before
it takes maturity
i.e you must have a pen and paper with you
to check stuff as your learning
@Adeek Well, you haven't started on doing any exercises yet!
I will
@Carry What is the question? It's pretty much impossible to say sensible things with this much information.
02:41
By the way, the challenging ones I noted are not necessarily interesting. The list of interesting problems constitute a different list.
Hi @AkivaWeinberger.
@EricStucky I have a function $f$ and I need to find the smallest $n$ so that $f(n)\geq 2016$
@Adeek: This is not the only complaint that a person can have with hatcher :/
Thought about my homology of surface problem yet?
challenging ones are actually the ones one learn a lot from
02:42
@Adeek Not necessarily...
unless it is like a trick
@BalarkaSen No, I was busy all today.
Carry: Again, that's far too vague to get useful information.
Also tomorrow, as far as I can tell
@AkivaWeinberger Ah.
02:43
hi @AkivaWeinberger
@EricStucky People frequently complain that Hatcher's too talkative and not rigorous enough.
@EricStucky At the end of the solution you get something very similar to find the smallest $n$ such that $n$ has at least $12$ divisors
I personally don't find the former a problem, while the later is simply not true in my opinion.
and if you change $2016$ for $216$ it is $6$ divisors instead of $12$
02:45
I'm kind of frustrated that homology theory isn't "clicking" as I feel it should.
@AkivaWeinberger Exactly how I felt even when I was halfway through chapter 2.
I suppose it takes a level of effort I'm not used to.
@BalarkaSen Thanks, that's reassuring
Specifically then?
Homology's got a different flavor than fundamental groups and covering spaces, which are a lot more geometric.
Are you saying that because you know that's where I am (and Adeek is), or –
Let $V$ be a finite dimensional vector space, and $H$ a subspace of $V$. How do I show that $H$ has a basis? This seems obvious but I am having trouble proving it.
02:47
Yeah. I'm really not used to the whole "exact sequence" style of thinking (aka homological algebra, I guess).
@AkivaWeinberger You aren't halfway through chapter 2 of Hatcher yet, I don't think. To be honest I felt it was not natural to me as fundamental groups and covering spaces even when I finished learning the theory in chapter 2.
I am gonna spend all this summer on topology as well so everything should better click !
@AkivaWeinberger If it helps: I took it up as a challenge to see all though algebraic constructs in homology geometrically once. That helped a lot.
@rorty: Why are you interested in subspaces specifically? It's true that every vector space has a basis (with some Choice required for infinite dimensions)
At the moment I'm actually skimming the rest of Chapter 2, with the intent of going back in more detail, mostly because of that frustration I was talking about
02:49
which part of homology are you @ now @AkivaWeinberger ?
I'm trying to show that if $V$ is finite dimensional, then the subspaces of $V$ are finite dimensional
Well, what if there were an infinite dimensional subspace?
there would be no finite set of vectors spanning it
1
Q: Integral representation $f(x) = \lim_{n = \infty} \sum_1^n \ln(n)^2 + n \ln(x)^2 - \sum_1^n \ln(x+n)^2$?

mickLet $x>1$ be a real variable. $$f(x) = \lim_{n = \infty} \sum_1^n \ln(n)^2 + n \ln(x)^2 - \sum_1^n \ln(x+n)^2$$ Is there an integral representation for $f(x)$ that uses no $\sum$ , named polynomials nor non-analytic functions ? ( so no " cheap" Floor function or Sum in the integrand ) Notice t...

@Adeek I have a bookmark on section 2.2, but I've found the whole excision theorem section to be hard to follow
02:51
Hmm, this is a somewhat more difficult definition to work with :P
Goodbye
I can tell you the idea behind it
I have good understanding of that theorem I think
@AkivaWeinberger Can you specifically state where you have the conceptual trouble?
i know that the basis of $V$ spans the subspace, but that basis might include vectors in $V-H$
But I'm also skipping ahead and looking at the "additional topics" section of chapter 2
02:52
Have you tried doing some exercises from 2.1?
Right, that's the crux of the matter.
I am gonna do my honours seminar on Ulam Borsuk theorem btw
in arbitrarily dimension :D
@AkivaWeinberger Skimming through things is fine, but don't skip around to much lest you'll go astray.
I did it last semester on dimension 2
Intuitively, you could project the $V$ basis to $H$, and then you'd have a spanning set.
02:53
@BalarkaSen I haven't, actually [braces]
Try to do some!
Being able to do exercises provides a lot of confidence.
Also helps understanding things.
This can be made rigorous without too much effort, but you may not have enough theory yet.
I will go study I will be back later
bye adeek
02:54
Um, exercise 2.1.1: Disk?
@AkivaWeinberger About excision, here is a proof-summary.
("What familiar space is the quotient ∆ complex of a 2 simplex [v0, v1, v2] obtained by identifying the edges [v0, v1] and [v1, v2], preserving the ordering of vertices?")
Um, no, not disk.
The definition I would rather use is infinite-dimensional means "exists an infinite linearly independent set".
So if we could use this to prove the statement, and then prove this, we'd be done :)
Oh, you know what, that would be $[v_2,v_1]$
Right…
02:56
Mhm. Not the cone.
Möbius band?
Correct.
It's easier to visualize with a big, fat, isosceles triangle
And gluing together the equal sides
Not sure what you mean. You can see this by taking a rectangle, gluing opposite sides (which gives the band) and then let length of one side tend to 0. This pinches of a bit of the boundary (which is a circle) of the band, so no harm is done.
Alternatively cut-glue.
Ah, that works too
Exercise 2 is easier when you realize that the tetrahedron $\Delta^3$ def. retracts onto a square (the union of two faces)
03:03
Yup.
Is Exercise 4 $\Bbb Z\oplus\Bbb Z$?
'Cause it's homotopic to the wedge of two circles
You mean $H_1$? Yes.
Right. Yes.
You still need to prove simplicial homology is a homotopy invariant :D
Did that not happen yet?
03:05
I don't think you know the proof yet?
Hatcher proves it somewhere in 2.1.
This is the exercises for 2.1
Yes, I know, I was just mentioning if you're applying something, you should try to know the proof if possible.
In any case, he asks for the simplicial homology, anyway, which is just a straightforward example
Yup. That's how one would do it without cheating.
I like cheating though.
$C_2=\langle A\rangle$, $C_1=\langle a,b,c\rangle$, $C_0=\langle v\rangle$, find the images and kernels of $\partial$, blah blah blah…
03:07
Yah, don't care. Move on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but $H_2(\rm Klein~bottle)=0$, but $H_2(\rm Klein~bottle;\Bbb Z_2)=\Bbb Z_2$, right?
'Cause it's nonorientable
Yes, but again that's a nontrivial fact you're applying.
So the 2-chain consisting of the whole thing isn't a boundary 'cause the orientations don't match up
but changing the coefficient group fixes that
I don't know what that means :) I doubt you can make that rigorous without some machinery.
In any case, 5 is straightforward like 4, 'cause it's simplicial again.
@BalarkaSen Eh, it gave me the right answer
So I'm happy for now
03:11
Anyway, it's good fact to keep in one's head that R-orientability means top homology with R-coeffs is R, but remember that this is nontrivial and won't be proved until chapter 3.3.
Is R a group here? That's an interesting concwpt
@AkivaWeinberger I mean you haven't proved much yet. You just applied a fact.
Is R a group here? That's an interesting concept
R is a ring.
Huh. I didn't know that there were different flavors of orientability, corresponding to rings.
6 looks annoying. Is the resulting space something other than a big tangled mess of triangles?
03:14
Sure. All of this will be done in 3.3. Anyway, did you get why I was being pedantic? Having the right answer is not the point: what's the proof that H_2(nonorientable surface) = 0?
@AkivaWeinberger No, 6 is stupid.
I feel like I could do it if I really wanted to — I suppose I know what $C_2$ and $C_1$ are — but it'll just turn into a big jumble of mindless algebra, I think.
(Interestingly, that other book I have calls them $S_n$ instead of $C_n$.)
(Don't know why.)
I am sure you can do it. But if you don't have a proof, you can't call something which gives you a proof mindless algebra. Computations are important.
Move on to #7.
You'll probably be able to do it, but this is one of my favorites.
I can see why.
I'm just identifying pairs of faces? And I end up with $S^3$?
@AkivaWeinberger Mhm.
@AkivaWeinberger What do you think is the reason?
Just curious.
'Cause it's much more puzzle-y than the others
03:22
True, but not quite the reason. There's an interesting concept one stumbles upon while solving this which is actually a general phenomenon for 3-manifolds. But nevermind that.
So, my guess is that I identify $A$ with $-B$, and $C$ with $-D$, where those are the faces, but I can't visualize that so it might not be $S^3$ at all
I'm not even sure if that makes sense
I am not sure which face is which there.
There are only four faces
Yes, but how are you marking them?
There's only one way of labeling them, up to rotation. Or are you asking about orientation?
03:27
ops, you're right, i'm sleepy. right. what is $-$ there?
i.e., what are the orientation conventions?
Orient them such that $\partial(\Delta^3)=A+B+C+D$
Oh, ok.
Yes, then what you say does give you $S^3$. Prove it.
Hm. If I first identify $[v_0,v_1,v_2]$ with $[v_0,v_1,v_3]$, that gives me a ball with two hemispheres as faces. Right?
You're correct.
Which is equal to the complement of an open ball in $S^3$…
so identifying the last two faces fills in the "hole" left by that open ball.
03:31
Well, yes.
And that gives $S^3$!
Good proof.
Here's what I was thinking of:
(Not factorial. Though now I'm curious if it's possible to define the factorial of a topological space.)
(If not, it should be.)
The product of all spaces less than or equal to a given topological space :P
Arrange the tetrahedron so that you have two edges facing each other skewly.
Now cut it in half. You get two pieces of pie.
03:32
@EricStucky There we go
Do the identifications on each piece individually to get a solid torus.
@BalarkaSen Wait, what?
Glue back along the square you cut it along. This square has now become the boundary torus.
You get $S^3$.
I lost you at the "facing each other skewly"
@AkivaWeinberger Let me see if I can get a picture.
You cut along that little square.
So everything just boils down to the genus 1 handlebody decomposition of $S^3$.
I'm not sure I would call those "pieces of pie". I think that's reserved for sector-shaped things.
@AkivaWeinberger Meh, everything's allowed to call everything in topology as long as the homotopy type's the same.
So I can even call them "my breakfast cereal crumbs".
That seems more like it would describe a totally disconnected set
Cantor crumbs
Hmm akiva, I think I can actually make a plausible construction of the factorial for simplicial complexes; although it seems kind of useless and I don't have any intuition for it.
03:38
Is it $X_n\times\dots\times X_0$?
To every simplicial complex, we can associate a finite topological space.
Finite topological spaces are in bijection with preordered sets
What's a finite topological space.
"There should be more math. This could be mathier." — B. A. Summers
(Opening quote of the preface of that textbook you just linked to)
@BalarkaSen Guess.
So we could define $X!=\prod_{Y\ss X} Y$, where $\ss$ is to be interpreted at the level of preordered sets
And of course the order of the subset is inherited.
@AkivaWeinberger I have no idea, sorry.
03:40
Spaces with finitely many points? (Usually not Hausdorff)
It is a topological space $(X,\mathcal T)$, where $X$ has finitely many elements.
It's a finite set with a topology
That's not a topological space.
"All topological spaces are Hausdorff" – Balarka
03:41
Correct statement.
Though I'm not sure why you'd study finite topological spaces if they're the same as preorders.
(I don't remember the details of the correspondence but I think it has to do with the closures of singletons?)
combinatorially, yes, but you can do algebraic topology to topological spaces and it seems kind of unnatural to do algebraic topology to preorders.
@EricStucky How?
o.O what?
Ah. That makes sense
03:43
ok :)
And you get weird stuff like the pseudocircle
5 mins ago, by Eric Stucky
To every simplicial complex, we can associate a finite topological space.
I have no idea what you two are talking about.
Oh, I don't know, I stole it from the introduction, but I do have an informal guess
@BalarkaSen Finite topological spaces are in one-to-one correspondence with preorders, and it's not too hard to find out what that correspondence is
That's basically all that's happened so far
03:45
Idea: contract each face of a simplicial complex to a point, but preserve the topological structure.
I refuse to try to figure it out or to hear about it.
so like, two points and a line connecting them, becomes three points
the middle point is open
Ah, so $[0,1]$ becomes a three-point space with a Sierpiński-like topology
How does one define this topology? I have a guess but I am not sure.
03:47
Quotient topology?
$[0,1]$ turns into $[0,1]/(0,1)$
So you're quotienting the interior of $[0, 1]$?
Yeah that works.
Ugh, how vulgar can people be.
7 mins ago, by Eric Stucky
So we could define $X!=\prod_{Y\ss X} Y$, where $\ss$ is to be interpreted at the level of preordered sets
I'm not sure what you mean by $\ss$ here (and neither is MathJax)
oh XD
I have a lot of macros, but this is the only one I consistently forget
$\subseteq$
03:48
If you have finite topological spaces you can order them by cardinality.
@EricStucky You want to tell me why the associated finite set of a simplicial complex is useful?
I am interested.
No, I haven't studied it.
But there is the paper
@Evinda that doesn't make any sense. what is $i$ on the right of the equation?
Yeah, this is one of my projects for this summer :P
@AkivaWeinberger what book are you working through?
03:50
I would like to give a talk or two about it
at my student seminar
Interesting project. The introduction talks a bit about the Whitehead conjecture so I guess it's useful there.
@EricStucky are you an undergrad? where?
Nope: first year grad at U. Minnesota
I did my undergrad at Harvey Mudd
which is a small school in socal
@CarryonSmiling We were talking about Hatcher's Algebraic Topology, but we got sidetracked by my believe that we should be able to take the factorial of anything.
@AkivaWeinberger You feeling a bit less frustrated after doing all those exercises? :)
03:52
I love california
@BalarkaSen You know I didn't get past 7
hehe all of it? :P
'Cause I was talking in this chat
there's quite a bit to love XD
the part in the US
03:52
@AkivaWeinberger Well, you did 7 of 'em.
lelele
That's more than 0.
Baja California isn't really California
$7>0$
I lived in Los Gatos for a year, I really liked it there
in a very literal way
03:53
@AkivaWeinberger OK, something more serious and interesting. Suppose $X$ is a CW-complex.
Let $X^i$ be it's $i$-th skeleton.
What's $H_n(X^n, X^{n-1})$?
Not to be confused with $X^i=\prod_i X$, the product of $X$ $i$ times
You're still thinking about factorials aren't you.
03:55
Quite possibly
Actually, I've always felt that that notation was weird
I think there's actually something very skeletal about it.
$S^2$ isn't even homeomorphic to $S\times S$ for any space $S$
At least $D^n\cong(D^1)^n$
Um, is it $\Bbb Z^k$ where $k$ is the number of $n$-cells?
(But it is $S\wedge S$ for $S=S^1$, which as far as I know is pretty much the sole purpose of the smash product.)
Although Barlaka, you may know more about that than I do :)
I suppose that works
Smash product is actually very interesting IMO.
03:58
ooh do tell :D
@AkivaWeinberger Correct!
Free abelian group generated by the $n$-cells, precisely!
Yay! What do I win?
hi
@Adeek Hey!
(Wait a minute…)
03:59
Here's the deal: if you can arrange $H_n(X^n, X^{n-1})$ in a chain complex and compute it's homology, it'd be computable entirely from the cell structure of $X$.
lol
This can be done.
It's called "cellular homology".
@BalarkaSen I don't understand this point
@EricStucky You know about the cup product?
ooh yeah

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