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00:00
Right, if I had been smarted I'd probably have set $\vec{g}(t) = (x(t), y(t))$, and I'd write $f'_t(x, y, t)$, which would cause no problem. But oh well.
This was an issue in my DE class I ta'd for. Namely for exact equations you look for a solution to $M+Ny'(t)=0$ By looking for a 2-variable function f with partials M and N and then considering $f(t,y(t))$ and integrating both sides.
@BalarkaSen The issue you have is that the expression you wrote is a compostion of functions, so you want to differentiate that and not take a partial of anything.
@Balarka: There is no problem. $f$ is a function of $(x,y,t)$, and $\partial f/\partial t$ makes perfectly good sense. The problem comes from the sloppiness in Leibniz notation with single-variable calculus.
Yes, @PVAL is making a further explicit remark.
@PVAL right.
@TedShifrin granted, $\partial f(g(t), t)/\partial t$ makes it clear that we're diffing wrt $t$ of the third coordinate. But still, can be confusing sometimes.
@Akiva/MyDogAte: I do believe you've got it. Can you also see that if $R$ is a quotient of an integral domain, then the statement is always true?
No, @Balarka. You're still missing the point.
Hi, by the way.
00:05
Writing $f'(g(x))$ is different from writing $(f\circ g)'(x)$. Think about it.
Oh, and what did you decide about that covering map question?
I know it is. You're fixing the $x$ in the former. So you're differentiating $f$ on the value $g(x)$.
But in the latter case you're differentiating $f \circ g$ at $x$.
So writing $\partial f/\partial t$ evaluated at $(g(t),t)$ is very different from differentiating the composite function. For the latter, it's a non-partial derivative.
It's $D(f \circ g)(t)$, I agree.
Huh?
That makes no sense.
I edited.
00:09
It's not $f \circ g$ its $f \circ (g \times Id)$
(times in the other order)
or $f\circ h$ where $h(t):=(g(t),t)$
@PVAL has it right ^^^
Then please write $(f\circ h)'(t)$.
Er, what? I thought I was differentiating the single variable function $f \circ \vec{g} : \Bbb R \to \Bbb R$ at $t$? That's $(f \circ \vec{g})'(t)$, no?
No, you're differentiating $f(g(t),t)$. Oh, and I finally know which problem you're doing. It's the envelopes problem. Super cool.
00:13
Oh, you're differentiating $f(g(t), t)$. Sure, then that's what PVAL says.
@PVAL: I don't think my books are freely available on the web (at least definitely not legally). Of course, my diff geo book is, purposely.
"at least definitely not legally"
@PVAL: It's difficult to find his calculus book on the usual sites.
Meh, I prefer writing $g(t) = (x(t), y(t))$.
I haven't looked for your books admittedly
00:14
@TedShifrin I have solved the envelopes problem.
I haven't found either the algebra book or the multivariable book. I did find the linear algebra book, although I don't know what the publishers did about it.
It's one of the two books I've never been able to find.
Are you sure you have @Balarka?
Your linear algebra book is up and hence always will be.
I think so, yes. Want me to write down my proposed solution?
00:15
Not here, but yes.
I assume you don't have a proof or disproof of that topology question? I'm not annoying you; I'm just curious.
I haven't given it a thought yet, @TedShifrin. Too busy with calculus.
LOL, ok.
What was the question?
In case @Akiva or anyone else wants to ponder it: Prove or give a counterexample. Suppose $f\colon X\to Y$ is a surjective local homeomorphism. Prove that it is a covering map if $X$ is compact and $Y$ is Hausdorff.
00:17
(@MikeM: "Obvious" generalization of the stack of records theorem in Guillemin & Pollack.)
@BalarkaSen Here's an exercise (maybe its in @Ted's book) two 2-variable functions $M$ and $N$ are partial derivatives of a 2-variable function if and only if $M_y=N_x$ or vice versa.
I did this with him before.
You're assuming smooth and on a simply connected domain, or something?
Heyo
00:19
He'll certainly get there soon in my book.
heya @Danu
Oh, this is the conservative/irrotational problem.
on all of $\Bbb R^2$ and sure smooth
@Ted: There's no reason to assume smooth, but sure.
Well, there's a pedagogical reason to assume smooth, since otherwise what does a derivative mean?
But with the correct interpretation of derivative you may as well make these $L^2$ functions.
So the lecture notes on complex geometry turned out a bit difficult :( Back to complex analysis, I guess!
I need to be able to use FTC somewhere, @MikeM, so I need some hypotheses.
00:21
Gamelin has been fun though a wee bit boring... And it omits some proofs of big theorems (?!) Thanks for the recommendation anyways
LOL, @Danu.
Hmm?
@Ted: I can prove what I just said without hypotheses.
Not at the level of your calc book tho.
There's an almost everywhere hidden in your conclusion,
Yeah yeah.
00:23
So in what sense are mixed partials equal for an $L^2$ function?
@Ted: Equal as distributions.
You still need some Sobolev space assumption
Don't I need some sort of Sobolev space?
To have even weak derivatives
^^ haha
bows to Danu
00:24
Last I heard $L^2$ is a Sobolev space. Last I heard any continuous function is in a Sobolev space.
$L^2$ is not
See at this point in functional analysis I had already passed all the required exams..
I think you need some integrability of derivatives, @MikeM, hence an actual Sobolev space.
This stuff I know, because we got drilled in this for mathematical quantum mechanics
@Danu: You're incorrect.
00:25
You most definitely need more assumptions. I'll take bets for any amount of money on that.
Or I can just put you on ignore for being tedious.
$L^2$ functions are not even continuous, IIRC
@MikeM: There's really no need to act so testy.
Also why are you giving me such an attitude about it?
@Ted: You can define differential forms with eg $H^{-1}$ coefficients. Then consider the sequence $\Omega^0_1(U) \to \Omega^1_0(U) \to \Omega^2_{-1}(U)$. The same proof as usual shows that this still calculates (first) de Rham cohomology, hence every $L^2$ function with equal (distribution, ie in $H^{-1}$) derivatives is given as the differential of an $L^2_1$ function.
00:27
Relax guys.
Please :-)
(When $U$ has no first de Rham cohomology, I mean.)
@TedShifrin $f_t : \Bbb R^2 \to \Bbb R$ is a bunch of $C^1$ functions, $t$ running in $(a, b)$, $C_t$ level sets of $f_t(x) = 0$ and $F(s, t) = f_t(s)$ is $C^2$. Assume envelope $C$ is parametrized by $g : (a, b) \to \Bbb R^2$. Then, as normal of $C_t$ is also normal to $C$, $\nabla f_t(g(t)) \cdot Dg(t) = 0$. But we also know $F(g(t), t) = 0$, so differentiating gives $DF(g(t), t) = \nabla f_t(g(t)) \cdot Dg(t) + \partial F(g(t), t)/\partial t = 0$.
Comparing these two, I have $\partial F(g(t), t)/\partial t = 0$. Thus, the envelope is determined by the equation $F(x, t) = \partial F(x, t)/\partial t = 0$, right?
@RandomVariable did you get the message from r9m?
@skullpetrol Yes.
00:52
@Ted: I am unconvinced this can't be made to work, but I see your objection to what I've written above. You probably want $L^1_1$, say. But my original claim is still valid: $L^2$ functions are $L^1_1$ on $\Bbb R^2$.
It's just that my antiderivative is now only guaranteed to be $L^1_2$ instead of something better.
Uh-oh. It's about 6:30. Dangerous hour for any kind of rational thinking, let alone math.
Why does this not surprise me?
evening, chat
evening
Good morning
01:02
Morning? @Albas
Where do you live?
I wonder if its a good idea to encourage people on this site to contact individual mathematicians...
...no.
Tell'em to go to mathoverflow.
@Semiclassical math.stackexchange.com/questions/1576132/… this might interest you.
There's roughly 4 times as many Lol's in the Math chatroom as there are in the Physics chatroom
hmm, thanks
01:17
is 0 discovered or invented?
@r9m You can send me a private message on I&S whenever you like.
@dlalz you could say it came into use because of a little bit of both :)
Were the negative numbers discovered or invented @dlalz?
01:40
@skullpetrol I generally avoid using acronyms and emoticons. I'm old-school.
01:51
Hi Guys, hope someone can help me with a 1st/2nd year problem.

Consider the linear homogeneious system $x' = A(t) x$ with $A(t)$ continuous on some domain. By our general uniqueness/existence theorem, we know there exists a unique solution to the initial value problem $x' = A(t)x$ with $x(t_0) = x_0$ on an open interval containing $t_0$ (In fact, this open interval is the domain of $A(t)$ but I digress).

Now I get confused when we start talking about fundamental solution sets and linear independence of solutions. The next part in the textbook talks about $n$ solutions of the system $x' =
02:27
be kind
rewind
02:43
2 hours ago, by Ted Shifrin
In case @Akiva or anyone else wants to ponder it: Prove or give a counterexample. Suppose $f\colon X\to Y$ is a surjective local homeomorphism. Prove that it is a covering map if $X$ is compact and $Y$ is Hausdorff.
@TedShifrin I suppose the compactness of $X$ is required because $X=(0,2)\times\{0\}\cup(1,3)\times\{1\}$ and $Y=(0,3)$, with $f$ being the projection onto the first coordinate, satisfies all other hypotheses but isn't a covering space?
Where $(a,b)$ is the interval $]a,b[$ rather than the point $\langle a,b\rangle$.
Today is a good day.
The problem being that there's no open set $U_1$ containing $1$ such that the components of $f^{-1}(U_1)$ project homeomorphically onto $U_1$.
@JulianRachman Glad to hear that.
Thank you. Probably the best day of my life in terms of mathematics. :)
@TedShifrin And as for Hausdorffness, let $X$ be $[0,1]$, and $Y$ be the Sierpiński space, and let $f:\begin{cases}x\mapsto0,&x=0\\x\mapsto1,&x\in(0,1]\end{cases}$. (Is there a better way to notate that?)
@JulianRachman Care to share?
(The Sierpiński space is the one whose open sets are $\varnothing$, $\{1\}$, and $\{0,1\}$.)
And again there is no open $U_1$ where $1\in U_1$ and the components of $f^{-1}(U_1)$ map homeomorphically onto $U_1$.
Yes. To put it simply, I got the concept of the proof for my main theorem of my paper verified and now I just need to put everything into words and the main goal of my paper would be completed. If you want me to go into detail of the mathematics, I would not mind.
@Akiva
02:56
Nice!
Which area of math, if you don't mind my asking?
Here is an active PDF of the paper: sharelatex.com/project/569c7839de5631c80dafbfad/output/…. No I do not mind. The area is category theory (and combnatorics).
@JulianRachman Not something I know a whole lot of, I'm afraid. But congrats!
@Akiva Trust me. You are not the first to say that. Thank you so much.
Wait. "And combinatorics"?
See that is what I was in the middle of writing up:
I just put in combinatorics because I thought that I would also be considering where my theorem is coming from. However that does not see like the case because now after my generalization of this theorem, I is now widely applicable to so many more areas of mathematics that instead of including all of its applications, I can just put the area solely under category theory
@Akiva
So I mean I will probably go category theory solely but I feel like there are other areas that would be important to consider; however I don't know what those areas are.
Hi @Ted
@Akiva: So you've shown the hypotheses are necessary in general. Do you have a proof that they're sufficient?
hi @Julian
@Ted How has everything been? I have had the best day probably of my whole entire life.
I'm assuming "local homeomorphism" means that for every $x\in X$, there is an open neighborhood $U_x$ such that $f|_{U_x}$ is a homeomorphism onto its image.
Is that it? @TedShifrin
03:15
Good for you, Julian :) I showed a high school precalc class how to use logs to figure out when the murder occurred :)
Oh, yeah, that was me
The murder, I mean
Yes, DogAteMy :)
I'm sorry, but the person was just really annoying
I am sure you'll be annoyed by us sooner or later ...
Oh, come on…
…you know I'd never murder all of you.
03:17
Perhaps not all ...
Wait. My Sierpiński thing isn't a local homeomorphism.
What if I change the domain to $\{0,1\}$ with the discrete topology?
And the map is the set-theoretic identity map.
That should work. $1\in\rm Sierpi\acute nski$ is still the problem point.
Not clear. 0 seems a problem.
Oh, you're right. $0$ is the problem one. Sorry.
03:22
In the domain.
$U_0$ has to be $\{0,1\}$, right?
And the inverse image is $\{0,1\}$ with the discrete topology.
No subset of which homeomorphically projects onto $U_0=\{0,1\}$ with the Sierpiński topology.
No, you look at points in the domain.
But I think you're ok.
For determining that something's not a local homeomorphism? Yeah, I got that; I changed the map
Right. The nbhd of 0 is the whole thing.
Yeah.
I need to look up how to pronounce "Å„".
(Is Sierpiński Polish?)
03:26
Yes.
Ah, it's like the ñ of Spanish.
Now I'm more interested in a proof or counterexample.
"Scherrpyiñskyi."
@TedShifrin I might have to sleep on it. (10:32pm here, not at the peak of my cognitive ability)
03:45
@Ted Nice. Can you tell me how you use logs to figure out how murder occurred? Where are you teaching?
04:01
Anyone, how would you say $A^*$ without saying "$A$-asterisk?"
A star.
04:22
@Julian: Volunteering at a charter high school (and working with middle-schoolers at the library another evening a week). ... At any rate, look up Newton's law of cooling. Basic example of exponential behavior. :)
@Ted: I can modify my previous argument to show that indeed any distributional differential form - including those in $H^{p,s}_{loc}$ for any $p,s$ - has a distributional antiderivative. The point is that distributional forms (currents) still calculate de Rham cohomology. The real worry is what level of smoothness I can get on this distributional antiderivative. But I think care shows I can always get it in $H^{p,k+1}_{loc}$.
I didn't know you were volunteering now, I thought you got blocked everywhwre. That's cool!
@Ted That is great! I will :)
 
2 hours later…
06:39
Hello @Pallas
I'm procrastinating homework
how you doing?
I'm good. I need homework help. Know discrete math by any chance?
haha I do, actually :D
cool. puu.sh/ndoda/c66a539a91.png <- The question. I have answered with that $f: (X \times Y) \to Z$ and that $\phi(f)(x)(y) = f(x,y)$.
Now I need to show the sets of functions are bijective but don't know how
06:43
okay I see your construction
Hmm maybe
okay okay yes
is one direction obvious?
I think showing injection is obvious because the definition of phi is that it is f(x,y)
That makes sense
So how to do it, you say
Suppose $\phi f = \phi g$
oh yeah, then you just finish: for all $x$ we have $\phi f x =\phi g x$, etc.
then $f(x,y) = g(x,y)$?
and this proves injection?
right, because you had quantified over all $x$ and $y$.
So $f$ and $g$ are equal on all points in their domains, the end
ok, so suppose $\phi f= \phi g$, then $f(x,y) = g(x,y)$ for all $x,y$?
06:50
right, after cutting out the steps in the middle, that's what we've said :P
so the middle steps would be saying for all x phi(f)(x) = phi(g)(x), and then for all y phi(f)(x)(y) = phi(g)(x)(y), so then f(x,y) = g(x,y)
Exactly
Both of those middle steps are true by the definition given in Hint 2
fwiw
ooh, that makes sense. a lot of the times, i read the hint and don't know why it's relevant
So now, we need to prove surjection
Also that hint is like hella understatement: "In proving that there is a function between a set of functions and a set of functions whose outputs are functions, it may be useful to know when two functions are equal" XD XD
Yeeee so what does surjection even mean :/
lol, it's obvious to you, but you have no idea how many people in the class (including me) have no clue what to do
and surjection is when it's onto
06:55
You want that, for all functions $k: x\mapsto (y\mapsto z)$, there exists some $f$ such that $\varphi(f)=k$.
for all phi, there is a unique f.
uniqueness comes from the injection
?
so then just for all phi, there is an f
Eh careful
but isn't that in the definition of phi?
06:56
$\phi$ is your "big" function
So there's only one $\phi$
i thought im showing bijection for the set of f to the set of phi?
so there's a phi for each f?
No, not according to your def.
You've implied that $\phi$ is the function going from $X\times Y\to Z$ to $(X\to Y)\to Z$.
phi (f) is x \to y\ to z function?
math is weird...
06:59
:P
ok, so for all phi(f) there is an f
ah but if you say it like that
isn't this self evident?
you're begging the question
remember, $\phi(f)$ actually lives in a collection of functions
The point is that you wish that every function in that collection is of the form $\phi(f)$.
But a priori you don't know that
but why don't know that since i defined the set as phi(f)?
07:02
But that's not how the set is defined
Look at the problem statement, you will see that the image of $\phi$ is decreed beforehand
erm, sorry, the codomain
It's that $X\to (Y\to Z)$ thing.
the set is defined [X->Y->Z] and we construct phi. oh ok, so we don't know that the set is all phi(f)
exactly
So that's what my $k$ was doing in my statement before
It was just intended to be an arbitrary member of that set
Ah ok.
So for some arbitrary $k$ in the set, $k$ is the image of some $f$.
That's the goal, yep :)
so how can we get to that? or is that something i can just assert?
07:06
Definitely needs to be proved
You need some better way of describing $k$ to get anywhere, I think.
$k$ sends every $x\in X$ to some new function
k: x -> j
Sounds good
g: y -> z
uh, j:y->z
j?
hehe opkay
and so $z$ is supposed to be the output of $f$, right?
so now, k(j)=z?
yea
07:10
erm, not quite: $(k(j))(y)=z$.
right k(j)(y)
erm no not that either I think :/
k doesn't accept functions, it accepts X's
so it's $(k(x))(y)=z$
oh ok
$k(x)=j$, and $j$ accepts Y's
so I think this is kosher
kosher?
07:11
haha it's slang
in math communities?
I mean like, it's not obviously wrong
idk I hear it around
hmm, yea it's defined on urbandictionary
ok so since (k(x))(y) outputs z and f outputs z
then (k(x))(y) = f(x,y) = phi(f)(x)(y)?
You've written the right things, I think
Just to be a touch careful because
$f$ hasn't shown up yet
I think that what you've written down, one of those equals signs, is supposed to be a definition of $f$
(k(x))(y) = z = f(x,y)?
07:15
right so in that one, the first equals sign is a definition of z, and the second one is a definition of f.
well, it's a definition for $f(x,y)$
but then you say, "I demand this for all $x$ and $y$"
and now it's a definition for all of $f$.
ah awesome
oh yeah and that's good because
you write down what $\phi(f)$ means
and you see it's a function that agrees with $k$ for all $x$ values
does it suffice for me to just be like, let $k \in [(X \to Y) \to Z]$, for all x in X, k(x) = y in Y.
for demanding this for all x, y?
Erm, a slight misstep is screwing you up pretty bad there
it's not that $k$ sends functions to $Z$, but that $k$ sends $X$'s to functions.
the parentheses are wrong, I mean
but i thought k was in the set [(X \to Y) \to Z]?
07:19
Look at the question again; your parens are misplaced
oh...should be [X \to (Y \to Z)]
yeah :/
cool :D
07:22
i finally constructed an example
So when I want to demand this for all x,y. I do for all x in X k(x) = y in Y. For all y in Y, j(y) = z in Z?
v. close
but remember the outputs of $k$ are functions
so $k(x)=y$ is grammatically wrong
oh right k(x) = j
You want $k(x)=j$ instead
yeah!
@ForeverMozart: For what?
cools. Thanks so much for helping!
07:24
npnp :)
oh baby I got a nice counterexample
@EricStucky ok let me tell you the conjecture first
haha sounds like I should brew some tea :P
$[0,1]$ is a compactification of $(0,1)$
The remainder is $\{0,1\}$ which is not connected
and $(0,1)$ has the property that if you remove any point, you disconnect it.
$[0,1]$ also has points of this type
my conjecture was that whenever $X$ is a "cut-point" space
and $Y$ is a compactification of $X$ with non-connected remainder
then $Y$ has cut points
but it is false :)
got it? @EricStucky
pretty cool right?
07:28
yee
It is not hard to get a T1 counterexample
but Hausdorff is much harder
you like topology?
a touch :P
enough to have strong opinions about where you can put non-Hausdorff spaces, so I'm glad you have a Hausdorff example XD
hah, yeah lots of crazy things can happen if you dont assume Hausdorff
but Hausdorff counterexamples are harder to come by when you work with connected spaces
07:53
Guys please give your views on this question
Not wrong, but incomplete. It is possible to draw a polar diagram to identify in which parts of the 4 quadrants function of $\varphi $ is >0 and in which parts <0. — Narasimham 19 hours ago
Oops wrong link
2
Q: Differenciating a function with respect to another function confusion

user166748I am having problem solving the following question- Differenciate $\tan^{(-1)}{(\sqrt{1-x^2}/x)}$ with respect to $\cos^{(-1)}{(2x\sqrt {1-x^2})}$, where $x$ is not $0$. My attempt - I took the tan function as $a$ and cos one as $b$. Now we need ${(da/dx)/(db/dx)} $ So here if I substitute $...

I was gonna say XD
Lol
Do see the pages i have put in my question
I just dont know how the answer assumes the domain of x
To be -1/sqrt (2) to 1/sqrt (2)
 
2 hours later…
10:26
@TedShifrin @AkivaWeinberger Here's a proof that if $p : X \to Y$ is a local homeo, $X$ compact _and Hausdorff_ and $Y$ connected Hausdorff then $p$ is a covering map. Take some $y \in Y$. $p^{-1}(y)$ is a closed discrete set of $X$, which is compact, hence is finite. Let $x_1, \cdots, x_n$ be the preimage points. Choose nbhds $\mathcal{U}_1, \cdots, \mathcal{U}_n$ of $x_i$ so that $p|\mathcal{U}_i$ are homeomorphisms. $\mathcal{U}_i$'s can pairwise intersect, so choose open subsets $U_i \subset \mathcal{U}_i$ which are pairwise disjoint (this is where you need Hausdorff). $p|{U}_i$ are sti
I do not know what happens when you lift the Hausdorffness condition from $X$. Something bad should happen, as non Hausdorff spaces are dumb.
@AkivaWeinberger Easier, just restrict the universal cover $p : \Bbb R \to S^1$ to $\Bbb R_+ \subset \Bbb R$
10:47
@TedShifrin @AkivaWeinberger Here's a counterexample which I think works. Let $X = [-1, 1] \times \{0, 1\}/\sim$ where $(x, 0) \sim (x, 1)$ iff $x \neq 0$ be the interval with two origins. Consider the projection map $p : [-1, 1] \times \{0, 1\} \to [-1, 1]$ defined by $p(x, \{0, 1\}) = x$. It is clear that $x \sim y$ in $[-1, 1] \times \{0, 1\}$ implies $p(x) = p(y)$, so universal property gives me a map $f : X \to [-1, 1]$ (namely, just identify the two origins). $X$ is a quotient of a compact space, hence is compact. $[-1, 1]$ is clearly Hausdorff. I think it is also visually clear than
@BalarkaSen I find it funny-sounding that a covering could be compact even though the thing it covers is not
Any simple example?
@Danu Yikes, you ask troublesome questions. I can't think of one off the top of my head. It is true that if a covering is finite, top space is compact Hausdorff if and only if base space is compact Hausdorff too.
So again, one needs to look for non-Hausdorff examples. NOOO.
:P
11:09
I always think of coverings as "larger" than the base
11:56
How do I prove/disprove the differentiability of $f(z)=|z|$ where $z \in \mathbb C$?
I've used the definition of a derivative but I'm stuck at the calculation
I don't know how to eliminate $z$ so that only the limit in terms of change in $z$ is left
If you want to show that it is not complex differentiable, consider first the limit quotient near $z=0$.
00:00 - 12:0012:00 - 00:00

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