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14:00
well, that's what a good multivariable calc course should start you on ... and then diff geo will advance you a lot if it's a good class (with pictures) :)
gah, I was thinking for some reason that my original counterexample didn't work.
@BalarkaSen Should I inquire?
@Ted $X$ be the torus. $A$ be the subspace homeomorphic to cylinder with the opposite ends wedged at a point.
Is the professor who grades on a curve a thrill seeker? Most of us keep both hands on the wheel while on a curve.
Yikes ... way too hard.
14:02
But it works.
I am not seeing the retraction.
Oh ... The cylinder is the torus except right where you wedge?
I've only ever graded on curves, @Fred, with a few exceptions.
oh, better example : $X$ be torus minus a point, $A$ be the subspace homeomorphic to $S^1 \vee S^1$
So if you look locally near that wedge point, @Balarka, you're retracting $\Bbb R^2$ (or a disk therein) to what?
OK, @Balarka. One step farther :P
14:05
in fact, consider the theta space and wedge of two circles.
I'm still trying to get you to localize.
Localize to what?
A neighborhood of your "bad" point.
You mean in the first example? I guess I'd want to retract all of a small disk around the bad point to that point.
Well, a point is a submanifold.
14:10
yes, but I don't get your point (no pun intended).
You're trying to give me a retraction to something that is not a submanifold.
oh, wait, you want image of the small disk around the point by the retract?
Yes ... in fact, I want to know what the map is.
you push the bits outside $A$ to the point and leave the bits inside $A$, 'course.
I am not gonna try writing a formula for the map. I can draw if you want, though.
NOT remotely continuous.
14:13
OK, fair, I just realized.
:P sorry.
I don't require formulas. But I do require correctness ;P
A disk is of course not homeomorphic to wedge of two disks. I was being an idiot.
Huh?
I think it's time to say goodnight to @MikeM, to be ready when he wakes up.
hmm, why is it not continuous?
@BalarkaSen You referring to this?
14:19
mhm
I am being a bit of an idiot this evening, so spare me.
Sounds like what you were lecturing me about yesterday :) Stuff near $A$ away from the point moves quite far from where the stuff in $A$ is sitting.
ah, yes, yes.
I see it.
(i didn't intend to say what i was saying as a lecture, btw. i was merely trying to convince you. sorry if it sounded that way)
Oh, I'm not upset about anything.
ok. so I scrap my first example and stick to $(X, A) = (T-\{pt\}, S^1 \vee S^1)$.
No, don't scrap. They're all the same example. I'm asking to you to localize to a disk and tell me what the map is.
If you can't do that, you don't have a map in your global examples.
14:29
no, I don't think there is any retract $X \to A$. retract induces an injective map on $\pi_1$, and $\pi_1(S^1 \times I/~) \cong \Bbb Z*\Bbb Z$ doesn't inject into $\Bbb Z \times \Bbb Z$
we need $T - pt$ instead of $T$
Yes, you're right. But you still can't tell me the map if you can't do it locally, as I've asked four times.
If I compose two functions $f$ and $1-g$, do I have to put the $1-g$ in parentheses or is it sufficient to write $(f \circ 1-g)(x)$ (vs. $(f \circ (1-g))(x)$)?
The first is totally not what you mean.
You might not need so many parentheses, but you absolutely need $f\circ (1-g)$.
well, the retract $T - \{pt\} \to S^1 \vee S^1$ is very explicit : take the fundamental square minus a point in the interior. now push points in the nbhds of the removed point to the boundary of the square, and identify afterwards. let me ponder on what is the preimage of an nbhd of the bad point of $S^1 \vee S^1$.
Preimage isn't good enough. I actually want a description of the map !
14:35
So the parentheses around $f\circ(1-g)$ aren't necessary?
You said "might" so I wasn't sure
Most people understand $f\circ h(x)$.
Okay, thanks!
But the extra parentheses don't hurt.
I see. It makes sense that I'd need them around $(1-g)$.
Unless you separately define $h=1-g$ and write $f\circ h$. :)
14:38
True :-)
@TedShifrin i have no idea what you mean by description of the map, but the preimage of little nbhds of the wedged point is disjoint union of four small nbhds containing points close to the removed point of the torus.
I want a description of the map on the disk, mapping to the neighborhood of the point in $A$. What is that neighborhood in $A$?
oh, i see. well, that depends on the disk. in general, you push your disk to the boundary square of the fundamental square via sliding through a ray issuing from the removed point.
Be more explicit with that last stuff.
I don't mean formulas. I mean explicit description as opposed to vague description.
I don't want to go to the boundary square. I want to see the map from a disk to ______ explicitly.
@Ted: Jacob gave that question on smooth retracts as a challenge problem during the summer qual class.
14:45
Guess whom he got it from years ago? :D
let us agree that we know of a continuous retract $f : D^2 - \{pt\} \to S^1$ (once, again i am not writing a formula). $g : S^1 \to S^1 \vee S^1$ be the quotient map obtained by identifying a square via the word $abab$. This is continuous. Composition of continuous maps is continuous. That said, I don't know why I should care about explicitly writing out the nbhds.
I'm aware...
I confess I got it from Mo Hirsch. It stumped me for a few hours.
Let's agree that we know a continuous retract from $D^2 \to S^1$?!
OK, big difference!
so much for a typo.
rubs head
14:46
Because, @Balarka, you need to be able to see such things and not just say "it doesn't matter."
What does a neighborhood of the point in $A$ look like? I've asked you that four times.
like an 'X'.
Also, morning, @Ted
Finally, thank you. Finally, @MikeM :D
What are we working on?
Let's call the $X$ the coordinate axes in $\Bbb R^2$, @Balarka.
Now I want to know the map that retracts $\Bbb R^2$ to the coordinate axes.
14:48
BLERGH
Well, you can return to not speaking to me if you like.
You can, of course, figure it out by understanding your crutch picture.
But you needn't.
@TedShifrin I was merely expressing my frustration at missing that.
Oh.
Your eructations are ambiguous. :P
One of my students wrote in (my last) evaluations about what a pleasure it was to have a math professor who used words and spoke languages. :P
@TedShifrin I can't figure out what you thought I meant.
haha
I figured it was your continued frustration with my order to give me the map concretely.
14:50
@Ted: I hope to get the absolute opposite: "It was a pleasure to have a math professor who knew only inarticulate grunts."
You're well on the way, @MikeM.
At least Jacob is well-spoken :)
@TedShifrin oh, haha, no, that's a completely wrong interpretation. :P
@Ted: Can Stein manifolds be compact?
NOOOO @MikeM ...
What are the compact complex submanifolds of $\Bbb C^n$?
That's what I just asked, @Ted :)
14:55
Not really :)
Hint: Maximum principle.
Right, I got it.
Thanks.
Sure. :) BTW, I messaged you-know-who ... to no avail. :)
He told me he responded, and that he always responds.
LOL, oh? I wonder to whom he responded.
It shows "Seen" but no response.
Weird... Well, he's either ignoring you and lying to me, or there's a ghost in the machine
Mucking up all the mechanics and whatnot
14:58
or maybe you talked to him before I sent the message yesterday late afternoon.
He's not the lying type.
Well, I leave Balarka to finish my exercise and I'll be back later.
What was your message about? Did it include that I was supposed to say hi to him for you? Because he told me that.
Maybe you should converse via email, and your facebook is broken. :P
@TedShifrin The exercise is to write down the map? oy...
To describe it to me, @Balarka.
No, that was an old message, @Mike. What do you mean my Facebook is broken?
@Ted: If he says he always replies, and you say he rarely replies...
It takes months sometimes.
Well, weeks, at least.
I could text him, now that I have a real phone :P
15:02
Good luck with that.
You think I don't know how to use my iPhone? :D
No, I think he doesn't respond to those, either...
LOL
So why're you attacking me? Geez ...
I'm just quoting! Don't shoot the messenger!
One of my old math friends decided to post my syllabus and problem set from a complex geometry course in 1980 on FB ... I asked him if it was part of my retirement roast. :)
15:04
You told me about that one yesterday, @Ted
oh ... damn ... either amnesia or dementia.
Hopefully the first. But I'm getting the latter, so if you do too, we can be demented buddies @Ted
not even remotely joke-able.
OK ... outta here.
@Ted Well, draw the lines y = x and y = -x in R^2. This partitions R^2 into 4 parts. Push each point in the interior of each of the single parts into the axis contained in these. Then push the points on the diagonal lines to the origin.
gah, i got disconnected and he's gone.
oh, and if (x, y) is a point in one of the conical parts, push it to the axis via pushing it through straightlines, which i forgot to add.
"So, if you're ever trapped on a desert island, and need to do lots of octonian computations to keep from going crazy..."
15:18
to keep from going crazy? seems like the opposite direction from where it'd take you
Indeed, that may be why it's such a fantastic quote. Oh, John Baez...
PS, @Mike, I saw someone ask in the comments in a recent question whether $\Bbb RP^2$ is a retract of the klein bottle. I really don't know how to prove it. What if there's some whacky embedding of $\Bbb RP^2$ inside the bottle to which the bottle retracts to?
For most people, doing lots of octonion computations is probably the very definition of having gone crazy...
The homology short exact sequence doesn't work, since $H_1(K)$ is indeed an extension of $\Bbb Z/2$.
@BalarkaSen: The only way a closed $n$-manifold can embed in another closed $n$-manifold is if it's a connected component.
15:24
Very cool fact. I don't know how to prove it.
No, it's not, and yes, you do. This is not an interesting fact. It's a point set statement.
OK, I guess to actually be entirely rigorous, it's not trivial. But it uses results you know.
15:36
@BalarkaSen it's a hint in hatcher
hello @BalarkaSen Did you feel today's quake? :)
plus i think i figured it out
what is the mapping torus exercise
@MikeMiller oh, I guess I have it. let $f$ be an embedding of a compact $n$-manifold $M$ into a connected compact $n$-manifold $N$. open cover $M$ with finitely many open sets homeomorphic to $\Bbb R^n$. embeddings take open sets to open sets, so $f(M) \subset N$ is open. but $M$ is compact, so it's also closed. impossible.
embeddings do not in general take open sets to open sets. you can embed a circle in $\Bbb R^2$, after all.
15:41
i think i've solved the exercise using the hint
you can definitely attach cells to $X \vee S^1$ to get that...
@MikeMiller yes, i mean extend $f$ to a map between euclidean spaces. then apply invariance of domain.
There we go, @Balarka.
i meant "embedding of euclidean spaces", 'course
Of the same dimension.
15:43
right, indeed.
hello, @Sawarnik. yes, i felt it.
it was huge.
do you know another way of calculating $\pi_1( T_f)$, mike?
haven't thought about it. the way he's doing it seems fine.
isn't T_f an S^1-bundle?
and can you solve the extension problem, @Balarka?
so use the long exact sequence of homotopy groups, i guess
@MikeMiller what's the extension problem?
15:45
i dont know what $S^1$-bundle means, nor have i seen the long exact sequence of homotopty groups yet
finding what groups sit in the middle of $1 \to N \to G \to H \to 1$, given $N$ and $H$
@MikeMiller no, surely not :D i don't know where that comes from
@iwriteonbananas it's not actually a way of computing anything in most circumstances.
oh, you're referring to my long exact sequence method of doing it
15:47
@BalarkaSen: The point is there's absolutely no hope of doing so in general. The best case for what you're trying to do is that $X$ is path-connected, and thus we have an extension of that form.
lol, ok. i get you.
i'd love it if you stop going off-the-tangent while you're discussing stuff. :P when you mentioned the extension problem, i was like "huh?" although i knew what it is.
i'm not quick witted, i admit
glares at @iwriteonbananas
15:53
That was not, in any way, a tangent. It was the entire point.
it was an apparent tangent to me. but i do get your point now.
i keep thinking every short exact sequence is split.
i've always wondered if there was a simple way to say by just looking at the sequence if it was split or not.
it's a nightmare to spend an afternoon trying to construct a section just to realize that the sequence was never split.
16:11
interesting fact : classifying complex projective varities upto homotopy is an open problem.
I'm surprised it's even hypothetically possible.
come to think of it, i think prof told me that there is provably no algorithm (<-- how to make this precise?) to compute fundamental group of a complex projective variety.
this came up as a reply to my retort about homology being way too algebraic and hard to compute when i was studying it, and that i thought fundamental group is much easier to compute.
moreover, he told me that there is such an algorithm for computing singular homology of complex projective varieties. i believe it now, the axioms provide a very strong way of computing homology of stuff
This seems odd.
what does?
can someone please help me solve for x, x-2sqrt(x)=-0.886
16:17
"Provably no algorithm"
reminds me of something my prof recently said: there is no algorithm for proving that some two 2-dimensional cell complexes are homotopy equivalent. and this follows from the fact that for every group G there is a 2-dim cell complex whose fundamental group is G, and the "isomorphism problem"
oh, that. indeed, it does, @Mike.
@iwriteonbananas ah, yes. you'll do those when you do Cayley complexes. but is there a proof that there is no algorithm for solving the isomorphism problem? i don't know.
@BalarkaSen yes that has been proven
16:19
Yes there is, @Balarka. This is the problem everything impossible reduces to.
whoa, i didn't even know.
This is why there is no hope of classifying all closed topological 4-manifolds.
i dont think im gonna do cayley complexes btw.
@MikeMiller because every group appears as \pi_1 of 4-manifold, yeah
16:20
I was wondering in math how can you prove that some statement can never be proven ?
makes sense
I always wondered about that
@iwriteonbananas they're cool, though. it's easy, you can just pick up the construction from somewhere.
@BalarkaSen: I would phrase it a little differently. You can build a 4-manifold algorithmically given a presentation of a group. Solving the homeomorphism problem would, in particular, then tell you when two presentations are equal. It's not enough that you can build something given a group, it has to be from a presentation. i.e. you can classify $K(G,1)$s up to homotopy equivalence :P
@BalarkaSen meh. are they in the covering space section of hatcher?
16:22
yes.
@BalarkaSen Which lines, precisely?
To take this somewhere where this doesn't sound like pedantry: maybe this is why the classification of projective varieties up to homotopy equivalence isn't thought to be impossible? That there's no way to start with a presentation of a certain type and build a complex projective variety out of it.
It's of course not known that you can get every finitely presented group out of complex projective varieties (indeed, the opposite is true), but if you could do that construction for some sufficiently bad subset of all finitely presented groups where the isomorphism problem still doesn't work, that would cause problems.
So maybe it's a good thing for the classification that there's no good algorithm to calculate the fundamental group.
makes sense, yeah.
@TedShifrin perpendicular to the axis
Be you sure?
@TedShifrin how can i find $\int_0^{2\pi} cos(t)^{2n} dt$ by integrating some complex function along the unit circle?
what complex function do i choose?
16:30
@iwriteonbananas they're nothing to bother about, but they are a good way to construct universal covers. here : let $G$ be a finitely presented group. let $\vee S^1$ be a bouquet of $n$ circles, each labelled with the generator of $G$. paste a cell to the bouquet according to each word in the presentation of $G$. voila.
What's $\cos t$ in terms of exponentials?
do van Kampen to verify that this has fundamental group $G$.
@TedShifrin $\frac{1}{2} (e^{it} + e^{-it})$
@Balarka Did you see my "Be you sure?"
@TedShifrin i think it works. :s
16:32
So on the unit circle, what's that in terms of $z$, bananas?
@BalarkaSen yes, that's the construction from the proof that any group can be written as the fundamental group of a 2-dim cell complex, right?
explain continuity, @Balarka.
yes. and that cell complex i constructed is called the cayley complex.
@TedShifrin $z + \bar{z}$
@BalarkaSen i see
Hi@Ted ,@Balarka ,@KarimMansour
16:34
How do you rewrite without $\bar z$?
Hi @Rememberme
hey quick question guys, how do u define bounded random variables? :) is it just |X_i|<Infinity or is it |S_n|<Infinity
@TedShifrin well, preimage of an open interval around a point in one of the axes away from origin is an open strip. preimage of an open interval around the origin is messes up, yikes.
@TedShifrin Re(z) after cancelling 2*(1/2)
hi @Rememberme
It's the right idea, @Balarka, just the wrong construction.
16:36
No, bananas. On the unit circle.
forget about perpendiculars. map by sliding through y = x + a, and the likes for the other axes.
yes, i realize why p^{-1}(U_(0, 0)) is messing up, @Mike
Finally, @Balarka!
runs away so that he doesn't get anymore of this map-constructing to do
hi @TedShifrin and @BalarkaSen
For the next part, when you learn what smooth means, prove that isn't $C^1$.
16:38
@TedShifrin $\pm 1$
Hi @Karim
Huh, bananas?
does anyone know it? :)
hold on, im not sure what u mean
how to define bounded random variables
@YauKinHoe the values are bounded
16:41
@TedShifrin is it just |X_i|<Infinity or is it |S_n|<Infinity?
thanks !
Neither.
@TedShifrin ahh so how do u write it mathematically?
$|X_i|\le C$
Hi @TedShifrin
@TedShifrin cool beans !
16:42
Hi mr eyeglasses ... Did you get my note?
@TedShifrin Note on where?
Here, last night. I even pinged you!
Is it the one about my twin?
Well, it looks like he/she knows considerably more math than I do so I guess they win
16:46
That's what puzzled me at first :D
@TedShifrin i dont know what u mean by that
If $z$ is on the unit circle, what is $\bar z$?
hello, someone have example on topological spaces which satisfy the extension property ?
@TedShifrin what do you wanna hear? :D sry im being stuipid
think polar, not cartesian
16:52
I would guess $\bar z$ is the point reflected about the real axis but I'm not sure
I will be starting real analysis today.....let's see how it goes...
He started there, @Mike.
Yes, mr eyeglasses.
Think group theory, bananas :)
$z\bar z=1$, so ...
@Ted: Seems like a better place to get to what I think is your end goal than where he is now
ah, but you've done and said it
i dont know what you're getting at
Gives up
16:55
lol
$\bar z = 1/z$
oh that's what u wanted to hear
i am aware of that fact .... :D
Now set up your integral.
ok, so integrate $f(z) = (z+1/z)^{2n}$ on the unit circle i guess
@MikeMiller only on the unit circle (you probably said that somewhere, and I just haven't read back far enough)

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