CONLOQVIVM

Cerberus

00:15

Yay!

Joonas Ilmavirta

09:35

Anyone looking for a boat? It was seized from a Russian oligarch and is up for auction.

Adam

11:25

Anyone up for a game of dice?

@JoonasIlmavirta It's a gigantic oceanic mobile home.

Joonas Ilmavirta

13:01

@Adam An immobile home like that would be beyond my budget, let alone a floating one. But it is fun to spy at those things.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta I like looking at housing listings for that reason.

I wouldn't buy a boat of any kind because I can't swim.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam I wouldn't like living on one either. I don't see it as anything fancy and I don't like a rocking home.

Joonas Ilmavirta

16:00

There's a discussion on the mother meta about moderator candidate criteria in general. No effect on our election now, but interesting.

It seems we're not getting more candidates and all five running are well established users.

Canned Man

Television: Cum vectōrēs pavōre perculsī1 ex autocurrū exīre voluērunt, rixa exorta est! Crūrum frāctōrum virōrumque lacrimantium abundē erat!

Jokke: Horribile vīsū!

I am trying to understand what kind of ablative Jokke is using. I cannot find anything describing ablative used in expressions, almost interjections, of horror or the likes. Does anyone here have any suggestions where to look for an answer to this?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@CannedMan Ablative of respect, supine.

I can try to find a link later if that pointer doesn't take you far enough.

Canned Man

What is the Latin name for ablative of respect?

(My grammars are in Norwegian and Swedish, and include the Latin name for the terms as well.)

I understand the supine to be 2nd supine, by the way.

Would it be ablātīvus līmitātiōnis?

cmw

16:22

6

Q: Mirabile visu, horribile dictu ― is this the ablative?

Are the expressions "mirabile visu", and "horribile dictu", in the ablative case? If so, shouldn't it be "mirabili visu", and "horribili dictu"?

ablative

Read also the link U_R provides to Alex B's earlier answer.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta Interesting. I have a feeling that in practice someone who meets the loose criteria wouldn't fair well against other applicants.

Joonas Ilmavirta

16:45

@CannedMan Ablativus respectus.

But it can well have other names too.

@CannedMan Second supine? What's that? I've never heard the term. What's the first one?

@Adam Agreed. I wouldn't mind having the bar higher, but many of the most important aspects are not captured well by those numbers.

Some people in the discussion give me the impression that they are choosing kings, not janitors.

If you want to have an election, you have to trust the voters. Too much fine tuning goes against that.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Did the Romans ever name their types of ablatives? I wonder where that term originated.

@JoonasIlmavirta -um: latinitium.com/the-supine-in-latin-grammar

I'm not sure where the terminology comes from, but the Wikipedia article on it is dreadful (and just incorrect at points) and lacks citations.

Joonas Ilmavirta

17:02

@cmw I thought so, but I find that terminology unnecessarily confusing. They are case endings and the semantics align well enough with the cases, so I wouldn't call them anything but the accusative and the ablative. In this case seeing it as an ablative helps seeing the analogy to other similar ablatives.

@cmw I don't know. I imagine it's a later invention than classical.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I think there is some debate about that point, but I don't know the specifics. I can see the utility in re-classifying it since the rest of it is defective. But I also am not generally in favor of extreme re-classifications that ignore historical development.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I'm not sure they felt the need to classify them. I prefer to see them as descriptions of what an ablative can mean, not a classification with solid boundaries.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I see it in the same sense of classifying sequence of tenses into primary and secondary, and I dislike that the same!

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw I really don't care about the history here, to be honest. I'm just thinking what is most useful for a student in practice. I know not everyone sees it this way, though.

Now that we're in rant mode about classifications, I need to bring up subordinate clauses. I don't see the need to decide whether something is temporal or causal; it often makes no difference in the eventual meaning.

Adam

/me gets out popcorn

cmw

17:24

@Adam Sorry, there isn't much of an argument here! heh.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam If you enjoy a good rant, I suggest taking a look at David Mitchell's soap boxes on YouTube.

Adam

17:41

Hehe

I like spirited discussion by informed participants who make reasonable arguments.

So the antithesis of arguing on the internet

@JoonasIlmavirta Does it make a difference in other ways?

@cmw By that you mean there'd be something like primary and secondary perfect tense?

cmw

17:58

@Adam dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/sequence-tenses

I generally don't think labeling things with numbers is helpful. So when I taught Latin, I often explained accidence in terms of A-decl., O-decl., A-conj., E-conj., etc.

Adam

Ahh

Is it supposed to be helpful to group them this way?

cmw

With numbers? No. It's merely classification.

Pedagogically, it's better to teach about thematic vowels.

It eases up on the rote memorization by showing patterns.

Adam

I find things easier to remember by the vowels used in different conjugations

Wheelock's does something like that, like for 1st and 2nd conjugation future -bo, -bi-, -bi-, -bi-, -bi-, -bu-

assuming I'm remembering correctly

They likened it to the sound a baby makes

Joonas Ilmavirta

18:18

@Adam "The wolf howls when/because the moon is full." Is there a real difference?

Insisting that it one be one class or the other isn't helpful in my opinion. Some instances fall neatly in a category, some don't.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta If you're talking about the action, no, though when leaves an open question as to why the wolf is howling. It might be howling when the moon is full but because it stepped on a thorn and not because of the moon.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I'd say it matters in translation. I'm ambivalent on whether it matters for understanding Latin. Mitomino would buck at your statement, though.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam True, there is certainly room for clearly both kinds of scenarios. But I'm not opposed to the idea of it being ambiguously a bit of both at the same time.

It's not like our speech (or at least mine) is neatly classified.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta Yea. In English someone could definitely say either one and be trying to convey the same meaning.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I would like to emphasize this point!

Joonas Ilmavirta

18:26

@cmw In a translation the context will probably inform the choice.

@cmw If I listen to myself speak, it is horrendously unorganized grammatically. Sentences start and end in the middle, thoughts change, antecedents are forgotten, subordinate clauses start dominating, and all that.

Reading about syntax gives a very different view of sentence structures. That is quite misleading if that is the only word on the topic a student ever hears.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta The one thing I can think of is: The answer is "lupus ululat cum luna plena sit," but what is the question?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw The question that sets me in rant mode is "What is the translation?".

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Oof, I loathe those too!

Joonas Ilmavirta

I'm sure I've written plenty of rants of that on the site. Mostly with upvotes, I might add.

cmw

I'd love to have people read a walkthrough before asking E-2-L questions.

Adam

18:31

We aren't able to customize the new question form, are we?

cmw

@Adam I don't think so directly, not without SE backing at least.

Adam

Having a quick list of pointers could be helpful if they're right in context with the form itself.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Maybe we can bring it up next time SE checks in on us.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw A question template with given subtitles would be a simple solution. 1. Text to be translated. 2. Elaboration on what it means. 3. Context. 4. My thoughts or attempts.

That should be easy to implement, but of course is only valid for translation questions. Maybe we should first have a new user pick a category and then they would be given the corresponding template.

Joonas Ilmavirta

18:45

@cmw Wait, can a wolf ululare? I thought you should be an ulula to do that.

And is the election bot Canadian? It apologizes for interrupting itself in a silent room.

Adam

Sounds to me like it's spent too much time alone in the wilderness.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Yep, wolves and dogs both ululant.

Adam

@cmw In LLPSI, in an earlier chapter Ørberg has a wolf ululat and a dog latrat.

Obviously dogs can ululat, and in the context of the chapter there's a reason the dog barks instead of howls.

cmw

19:20

@Adam Right, it's the same as in English with bark and howl. Moreover, both howl and ululare were probably originally onomatopoeia for howling/hooting.

Joonas Ilmavirta

19:44

@cmw I learned something. I admit to never having thought this through.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I wrote an alphabet book of animals and their sounds in Latin (still need to find an illustrator and publisher) so I became a little bit familiar with these terms, although I finished it years ago and now can't remember some of them.

Decided to clean it up and shop around after finishing the dissertation.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw Sounds fun! I'd be happy to buy a copy if it becomes available.

Voting just started in our graduation election! You can vote for as many as you like, putting them in an order of preference.

2

In case anyone wants something to follow during the 8 days of voting, there is a badge that tells who has voted. The content of the ballot is secret, of course. The previous election had 76 voters, so subtract that to get the current total.

I'm curious to see how many users vote.

Canned Man

20:19

1st supine, the fourth principle part, e.g. amātum (for loving)
2nd supine, e.g. amātū (concerning loving). Eitrem § 145: ‘Supine is actually a verbal noun on -us by the 4th declension. The form has the same meaning as present infinitive active. Supine occurs in two forms: 1st and 2nd supine.
a) 1st supine on -um (actually accusative of direction, as per § 73) denotes the purpose of the movement; it takes the same case as the verb.
b) 2nd supine on -ū is used as an ablātīvus līmitātiōnis (as per § 102) with adjectives like facilis, difficilis, utilis, iucundus.

cmw

@CannedMan Note that the 4th principle part doesn't have to be the supine. Some dictionaries use the perfect passive participle.

Canned Man

Yes, I have come across them.

The dictionaries I possess, though, use the supine as the fourth principle part.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta Already 11 voters :D

Does it not show your own profile on the list of people with the badge?

Oh, there I am.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw Do they look alike for all verbs? I have a faint feeling that they might not in some rare cases.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I believe they will always be identical. But it's artificial. I don't believe we have attested supines for most verbs.

Joonas Ilmavirta

20:35

@CannedMan That was my most likely guess, but as I wrote/ranted above, I find that misleading. Those additional labels (1&2) don't add much, so I'm not sure why they're not just called accusative and ablative. They don't have all the functions of those cases, but still.

@cmw Hmm... Perhaps I was thinking of future and perfect participles. There are things like partus/pariturus.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Is there a catalogue of all known discrepancies?

Joonas Ilmavirta

Good point about the supine being rare. The use is so specialized that it is hard to see some verbs in that use at all, in addition to the rarity effect.

@cmw I don't know, but I'd sure like that as a question on the site.

We have discussed some of them somewhere, but I don't think we have any attempts at a catalogue.

Those discrepancies between past and future participles would be a good place to look for supine discrepancies.

@Adam It does, but there's a delay. The badge check algorithm only runs every so often.

@cmw Take a look at this.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta I got to investigate that more thoroughly later!

I think I was still on hiatus when that Q was asked.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I tried to look in a corpus for supines of the verbs with discrepancies, and the ones I found (natu, ortu) all align with the perfect participle rather than the future one. I didn't try every single one.

@cmw Which, as you surely planned, led me to find out that hiatu is amply attested. It's hard to see whether there are any proper supines among the nouns, though.

Which brings us to the question of drawing a line between those nouns and supines in the first place.

cmw

Is an infinitive a verbal noun?

I don't think the ancients adequately figured out all the nuances of language.

Joonas Ilmavirta

20:50

@cmw Depends on what you mean by that. It has the syntactical role of a noun, but I would consider it a form of the verb rather than a noun derived from it.

Whether the adverb longe is a form of longus or an adverb derived from it is a matter of opinion in my opinion.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta That's just it. What is the syntactic form of the supine? How can we tell for sure?

Can either the supine or the infinitive ever take an attributive adjective?

Can a gerund?

In English it can.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw That's a good one! The "proper verbal forms" infinitive and gerund can't, I think, take an attribute. The derived noun in -us can take attributes, but I'd say a supine can't. But that doesn't help us decide whether an unattributed instance is a supine.

@cmw What'd be an example?

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Healthy eating is the key to longevity.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw I wouldn't call that "eating" a gerund. It's a derived noun to me.

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta Is there a real difference?

"The healthy eating of vegetables is the key..."

Joonas Ilmavirta

20:56

But I certainly won't argue that that's the truth. That's just my sense of language speaking.

cmw

But I guess you can't say "healthy eating vegetables is the key"

Interesting!

Joonas Ilmavirta

@cmw Can you say "I am healthy eating a carrot", where "healthy" modifies "eating" instead of "I"?

cmw

@JoonasIlmavirta But in this phrase, "eating" isn't a gerund, but the present participle, which, with "am" form the present progressive.

Joonas Ilmavirta

Instances that don't admit attributes align well with the ones that I sense to be "verbal".

@cmw Fair enough. I guess that argument was more for the participle.

This is an interesting topic, but I have some good sleeping to be well doing.

Vale!

cmw

Vale!

Adam

21:08

@cmw What about healthy growing vegetables is the key?

Hmm, or what about he is rage posting on the internet?

I guess that would actually be rage-posting.

cmw

21:26

@Adam This is the same as "am eating" - is...posting is the verb. Although it's not written out as such, rage posting is clearly a compound word. Same with "I am househunting."

The space between the words and the hyphens are just part of typographical convention.

Adam

We English speakers love our compound words.

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