CONLOQVIVM

Cerberus

00:01

Hehe.

It would take years of auto-typing bots to overtake me.

Darn anti-spam system.

Oh, only 800,000 reps?

No, he does look familiar.

Joel Derfner

00:30

Now that, I think, would be a question worth putting on the site.

(You guys were busy while I was at dinner.)

(For what it's worth, I don't mind the vox populi question, especially given @HDE226868 's excellent answer.)

Nathaniel

@JoelDerfner Yes, it turned out to be much more interesting than I first thought. No classical examples, but some shortly thereafter.

HDE 226868

@Nathaniel I still hold out hope that someone can either corroborate the Hesiod claim I mentioned (unlikely) or find an actual Classical example. I suspect the phrase wasn't in common usage until much more recently than any of the dates given so far, though.

@JoelDerfner Thank you.

Nathaniel

@HDE226868 Packhum finds nothing in the Classical period. The Latin Library has only two, one in the Vulgate (in my answer) and one 12th century (Falco of Benevento).

That question should definitely be on the HNQ list right now, but it's not, so there must be some sort of delay in including us...

Joel Derfner

Wait, sorry, I was confused. @HDE226868 's answer was excellent, but so were @C.M.Weimer 's and @Nathaniel 's!

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes Kidding!

HDE 226868

00:41

@Nathaniel Hey, cool! It didn't occur to me to go someplace like that.

Cerberus

Haha.

HDE 226868

@Nathaniel Caching. Or we simple haven't hit the magic secret threshold.

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes Ad honorandum generem?

C. M. Weimer

@HDE226868 I think you might be referring to ἀνθρώπου θέμεν αὐδὴν from Hesiod's W&D line 61, but that's very different.

In context: Ἥφαιστον δ᾽ ἐκέλευσε περικλυτὸν ὅττι τάχιστα
γαῖαν ὕδει φύρειν, ἐν δ᾽ ἀνθρώπου θέμεν αὐδὴν
καὶ σθένος,

Cerberus

Oooh.

HDE 226868

00:43

@C.M.Weimer Could be. I don't take much stock in that note; I left it in because I was curious as to what others would say.

C. M. Weimer

"[Zeus] ordered renowned Hephaestus to as quickly as possible mix earth with water and give voice and strength into man."

man, vel mankind

Nathaniel

@HDE226868 I keep hearing that explanation but I don't accept it :-p. At least in cases like this. I've watched dozens of these things and the only caching greater than one minute I have ever confirmed is in the counting of a single vote on a question/answer. It may be that self-answers are always cached until another answer is provided, but I haven't been able to confirm it.

HDE 226868

@C.M.Weimer I did see one other version that went

> And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind,

Cerberus

@C.M.Weimer Into man, really?

HDE 226868

Different meaning, different translation, which would yield either vox humani or vox pouli, depending on your preference.

But this version makes less sense.

Cerberus

00:45

@HDE226868 That makes more sense.

Haha oh.

I don't know the context, but it looks like a creation?

C. M. Weimer

#Verberus "Place in man" better.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Nathaniel

@QPaysTaxes That's all well and good, but I have watched dozens of HNQ posts with my calculator handy, punching votes into the formula. The caching is almost always non-existent.

Cerberus

I see we have new conventions in this room.

@C.M.Weimer But "in man" suggests en as a preposition.

C. M. Weimer

?

Cerberus

00:47

With the genitive, no less.

@QPaysTaxes I was jokingly referring to "#Verberus".

C. M. Weimer

Genitive is used with "en" to express descent or material inside.

Cerberus

I'm slightly tipsy.

C. M. Weimer

"ἐν δ᾽ ἀνθρώπου θέμεν"

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes I'm stupid about tech. I have no idea what the Hot Network Questions list is.

Cerberus

@C.M.Weimer Yes, exactly. So the voice is not going into man, but the voice of man is going into [it].

HDE 226868

00:48

@Cerberus Yes. Hephaestus creating man.

Cerberus

@HDE226868 Thought so.

C. M. Weimer

Cerberus

@Cerberus Reread my edited message.

Cerberus

@C.M.Weimer Oh, really?

HDE 226868

Either way, the use is a literal translation, not the same use as the other times (e.g. Reynolds).

Cerberus

That's new to me.

C. M. Weimer

00:49

Crap, no, I'm writing too fast.

Cerberus

The other translation apparently didn't get that, then.

C. M. Weimer

Nooooo.

Cerberus

Oh.

C. M. Weimer

Now I can't edit it. I think I was right the first time.

Cerberus

I've had enough beers to enjoy it either way.

C. M. Weimer

00:50

Adverbially.

HDE 226868

@Nathaniel Just a random thought.

Nathaniel

@JoelDerfner The key thing to know about it is that getting a question on it often results in massive numbers of views for the question, lots of votes, and in general more activity on the site. It's a good way to introduce new people to our site.

C. M. Weimer

But now I'm stained, tarnished, embarrassed for life.

Cerberus

I would translate it adverbially, yes.

Haha aww.

What happens in this room stays in this room.

Thank you...I suppose.

Am I being so weird?

Hah!

I have gone home, actually.

Oh.

That must be a tough comparison.

Nathaniel

@HDE226868 You're probably still right :). Maybe there's caching of a different kind here, related to our public beta status not being recognized.

HDE 226868

00:53

@Nathaniel That could be it.

Cerberus

Actually, on our Tuesday's beer night, we are usually accompanied by a fellow classicist. Last time, we talked about something Homeric.

Joel Derfner

I am Apollo.

Wait, that means we're related . . . how?

You're my nephew?

Kinky.

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes Hah, no, "we" are a fellow historian and I.

Hehe.

I'll happily instruct you in the use of Autohotkey.

Autohotkey allows you to use hotstrings.

Nathaniel

@Cerberus I applied your meta post instructions and I love it. So thanks for that.

Cerberus

So you could type e.g. sqq and have that immediately expand into "I'm a smart".

@Nathaniel A convert! Yay!

@QPaysTaxes Yes, so you should pick a string that you will never type normally.

I find that I never, ever type two q's in succession.

@QPaysTaxes I know..

Joel Derfner

01:00

Especially when tipsy.

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes Ohh in that way, OK.

But not when attached to another letter.

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes Sorry. I meant, especially when tipsy.

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes You can choose to have it only activate at word's end/beginning.

But ~ is bad, because it requires you to hold down a key. That's less convenient.

Example: pieqq → Proto-Indo-European

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes , I think the example sentence you picked isn't actually analogous to the one you were asking about.

Cerberus

Butpieqq → Butpieqq

@QPaysTaxes You will still not reach peak efficiency...but I suppose it will do.

Joel Derfner

01:04

@QPaysTaxes What's the full sentence?

Cerberus

Maybe you could leave out people?

C. M. Weimer

This room is for the discussion of Latin.

Cerberus

Ubi Latine loquendum?

Maybe ubi with a subjunctive.

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes Oh, I'd use the gerundive, then. ad Latinam disputandam.

Cerberus

Ubi Latine loquamur.

Relative pronouns with subjunctives are I believe an idiomatic way of expressing the purpose of a noun.

That is the exact same construction, yes.

C. M. Weimer

01:07

@JoelDerfner This is best.

Cerberus

Characteric, purpose, cause, can all be expressed by relative + subjunctive.

C. M. Weimer

@Cerberus What are you drinking this evening?

Cerberus

In vino veritas?

C. M. Weimer

in cerevisia quoque

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer Though I'm not sure disputare is the best verb—doesn't it have a connotation of disagreement/strife?

Cerberus

01:08

@C.M.Weimer Eam ipsam bibi.

C. M. Weimer

@JoelDerfner Nope!

Cerberus

> Caesar legatos misit qui foedus rogarent.

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer I'm obviously bringing connotations from "dispute" that I oughtn't to bring.

Cerberus

Something like that is I believe idiomatic.

Yeah I think disputo is neutral enough.

But are we to discuss Latin or in ~~Latin~~ her? (Continuing the horse's theme.)

C. M. Weimer

both?

Joel Derfner

01:11

I think we are to discuss Latin in whatever language ends up being appropriate.

Cerberus

OK.

Joel Derfner

Hence ad Latinam disputandam rather than ad Latine disputandum.

Cerberus

Right.

Joel Derfner

Of course we could REALLY narrow our scope and make it both. ad Latinam Latine disputandam.

Nathaniel

Well then you've heard the last of me for a few years!

Cerberus

01:12

@JoelDerfner Mehercle statim inceperimus!

C. M. Weimer

How about ad linguam Romanorum disputandum, so we can discuss Greek, Faliscan, Oscan, Umbrian, and Etruscan as well.

And Gallic!

Cerberus

@Nathaniel Aww.

@C.M.Weimer You sneaky...

Ludum tuum novi!

(Yes, that's supposed to be an anglicism.)

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes I've deleted my answer, to be replaced by a better one later or tomorrow—I'm working too hard keeping up with this chat to write a thoughtful one now.

C. M. Weimer

@Cerberus Preferably fraus or dolus, right?

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer Well, wouldn't ad linguas Romanorum disputandum be more appropriate there?

C. M. Weimer

01:15

Yes, of course.

no!

ad linguas disputandas

Joel Derfner

Wait, why ad linguam Romanorum disputandum but ad linguas Romanorum disputandas?

C. M. Weimer

with the gerund, you'd use ad linguarum Romanarum disputandum

Joel, you're right, it should have been ad linguam disputandam

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes Sorry. We must be driving you crazy.

C. M. Weimer

qp, you can follow along I'm sure of it.

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer So your ad linguam Romanorum disputandum was a typo?

C. M. Weimer

01:17

Yes.

Cerberus

@C.M.Weimer Ita est!

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer Whew. My gerund/gerundive instinct is shaky.

C. M. Weimer

You could also do [acc] disputandi causa

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus You wrote *Mehercle statim inceperimus*—I thought the future perfect for the subjunctive was only found in negative statements. Am I wrong?

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner Umm it was supposed to be a perfect subjunctive.

Joel Derfner

01:20

@Cerberus Wait, I'm insane.

@Cerberus And I was thinking future perfect for oh God I'm so confused the perfect subjunctive baffles me so often.

@Cerberus Why would inceperimus be better than incipiamus? Or, rather, what's the difference in meaning?

C. M. Weimer

I would have said incipamus for "let us begin!"

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner Um, oh, I think I meant to write coeperint.

My mistake!

You're right, inceperimus doesn't make sense.

Latina impura?

Latina meretrix?

Colloquium non solum Latinum?

Nice.

I think it's not the chat itself that should be Latin in that tag, but rather the way in which it is...conducted. So then your Latine is probably better, or Latina (ablative) which is equivalent.

room topic changed to CONLOQVIVM: Ad linguam Latinam disputandam | latin.stackexchange.com [name-indecision] [non-solum-latine]

Hehe.

Feci.

Joel Derfner

I like Latina meretrix, but I'm also perverse.

Latina scorta. Latina spintria.

@QPaysTaxes Just 'cause I like it doesn't mean it's right.

@QPaysTaxes (Don't ever tell my husband I said that.)

Cerberus

01:37

Well, well, well.

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus Is that one "well" for each of your heads?

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes Oh no, that wasn't to you.

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes The tipsy can be forgiven much.

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner Yes, why not!

Joel Derfner

Say rather that you used it creatively.

Cerberus

01:39

@QPaysTaxes Non dixi "si rectum est", sed "si vultis".

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes Well, you created a new form.

Cerberus

> Si vultis mutare, mutate.

Hehe.

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus I'd go for rectum (tee-hee) rather than recta, due to generality.

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes Mm I don't see any specific word implied?

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus Or perhaps si vultis, mutate? In keeping with the terseness of Latin?

C. M. Weimer

01:41

Definitely rectum.

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes Well, really the antecedent is "to change," which would be neuter.

C. M. Weimer

because the clause is neuter.

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner So would I, but neuter plural is possible.

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus Neuter pleural is ALWAYS possible.

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner That's nice. Cicero might repeat the verb for pathos, though.

Joel Derfner

01:42

@Cerberus Yeah, and look where that kind of thing got him: assassinated.

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner Are they?

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus HAHAHAHA!

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner I don't see us being taught in school two millennia from now...but it is possible.

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus Your dreams aren't big enough.

@QPaysTaxes Oh, my God, IF ONLY.

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner It's not size that matters.

Joel Derfner

01:44

@Cerberus You know, everybody SAYS that.

Cerberus

@QPaysTaxes And his horse, Qpee?

Joel Derfner

@Cerberus I thought it was Qqee.

Cerberus

@JoelDerfner Well, it can go either way.

@QPaysTaxes Haha nice.

@JoelDerfner Mmm we don't want an accidental Autohotkey.

Joel Derfner

@QPaysTaxes It's pretty terrible when you're trying to text in Latin.

C. M. Weimer

Switch to a computer.

Well, there's your real problem.

You can't watch Netflix on a PC?

Joel Derfner

01:47

@C.M.Weimer Difficult to do when I'm walking around the West Village.

C. M. Weimer

@JoelDerfner What are you doing way over there?

Cerberus

Cool.

C. M. Weimer

/me lives on the east side, and therefore religiously avoids the west side

sigh No IRC commands.

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer Well, right now I'm in a hotel room in the Dominican Republic. And I live in Brooklyn, but I end up in the West Village of Manhattan sometimes.

@C.M.Weimer Usually for therapy.

@C.M.Weimer Upper or Village?

C. M. Weimer

14th St, actually.

Joel Derfner

01:51

@C.M.Weimer I'm terribly jealous of you both. I used to live on 92nd between 1st and 2nd and loved it. Then I lived on 111th and Amsterdam and loved it.

Then I moved to Brooklyn and regret it deeply.

C. M. Weimer

What neighborhood? I lived in Bay Ridge for a couple years.

HDE 226868

@QPaysTaxes You're way too enthusiastic that I popped back in.

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer Crown Heights.

C. M. Weimer

Ah, well, there's your problem.

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer Nah, it would be the same elsewhere. Plus, Crown Heights is very fashionable these days.

C. M. Weimer

01:52

But then again, I avoid Brooklyn for everything except work and sushi.

Joel Derfner

@C.M.Weimer You are wise to do so.

Okay. Logging off. Please, everybody, don't behave too properly in my absence.

C. M. Weimer

Vale amice.

Til next time.

HDE 226868

@QPaysTaxes Sorry 'bout that; I often see a lot of overly-peppy folks in chat.

Cerberus

02:52

@QPaysTaxes Fiam laetus.

Its active forms work like a copula.

But some deponents can have direct objects, like intueor.

Cerberus

03:31

Copula (linguistics)

In linguistics, a copula (plural: copulas or copulae) is a word used to link the subject of a sentence with a predicate (a subject complement), such as the word is in the sentence "The sky is blue." The word copula derives from the Latin noun for a "link" or "tie" that connects two different things. A copula is often a verb or a verb-like word, though this is not universally the case. A verb that is a copula is sometimes called a copulative or copular verb. In English primary education grammar courses, a copula is often called a linking verb. In other languages, copulas show more resemblances to...

@QPaysTaxes Bed time!

Adios.

Et tu!

poof

C. M. Weimer