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6:00 PM
@TedShifrin Thanks! And Happy Thanksgiving to you, as well!
@robjohn I love pumpkin pie!! Nice job on the crust, as well!
 
My French tarte crust is chilling right now. Soon to be baked, then we get serious.
 
@TedShifrin Oooh! Yummy!
 
Making apple tart with Calvados custard :P
One of my favorite classic French desserts.
 
my daughter's saying it's too windy to go to the park. she may be right about this. we may make some muffins instead.
 
@TedShifrin But you don't where it in your avatar!
 
6:04 PM
I have forgotten how to do such induced charge calculations. I withdraw from the electric charge discussion professor Ted.
 
No, my avatar stays mathematical.
You're no fun, @Koro.
 
@leslietownes pumpkin muffins?
 
:(
 
Hmmm, not windy at all here, @leslie.
 
this is unclear. we have cranberries and an orange, they might become involved.
 
6:05 PM
Careful that the orange doesn't make it too gummy.
 
i think we'll just use the zest.
 
Ah, that sounds purrfect.
 
you're too far south. we are normally sheltered from the 'santa ana winds' but getting a little bit of them. maybe robjohn is getting them.
 
@Ted, when looking your tiny avatar, it looks like an open shell, like Ted sells seashells on the seashore. Up close, I get it!
 
i've seen this code comment before, but it still amuses me
 
6:07 PM
@leslietownes Do add some walnuts?
 
// Function to calculate the propagator matrix for a magnet/rotator component.
// The formula is exp(-iHt) = 1 - i*sin(theta)*H + (cos(theta)-1)*H^2,
// and apparently it works as long as the eigenvalues of H are all 1, -1, or 0.
// (I pulled this from my old Pascal code and I have no recollection of whether
// I derived the formula at that time, or how I even learned of its existence.)
 
It's one of my favorite non-smooth ruled surfaces :)
 
(it's not actually that hard to derive. since the eigenvalues are $\pm 1$, we have $H=P_+-P_-$ for projectors $P_+,P_0,P_-$ onto the $1,0,-1$ eigenspaces)
 
comments within comments, there.
 
Why is there no "squeezing" in the defintion of arc length like there is when we compute the area of a figure?
 
6:10 PM
For second stage I give up and say the problem is not clearly stated
Physics rule is not rigirous
 
there sorta is. it's what the |f'(t)| part is doing in |f'(t)| dt.
 
@BannedUser i missed the context
what's the question?
 
semi: banneduser is trying to get his TV working before the raiders game and it's down to these three point charges.
 
@leslietownes not really
 
6:12 PM
may you get no bell prize in physics if you solve my question
 
he has point charges that are alternately disconnected and connected to one another in various configurations and the question is what the ultimate distribution is.
lobic: it might help if you elaborated what you meant by 'squeezing.' it is conceivable that there is none, depending on what that means.
 
ah.
something something potential difference probably
 
you're no better than koro.
i at least helped with my practical, real-world television analogy.
 
i'm forgetting what happens connecting charged spheres with wire
 
i'm not sure i ever learned this. that was the last physics class i took and i did not pay close attention.
 
6:14 PM
The diagram is killing me from inside
 
Yikes, if Semiclassic is "forgetting," then I give up.
 
lol
are all the spheres the same radius?
 
I never learned this, to my knowledge. I'm just trying to use basic equilibrium common sense.
I'm treating them as point charges.
 
semi: i hope it doesn't make a difference, but yes. they were points in the figure posted earlier.
 
hmmm
@BannedUser is this a problem out of griffiths or some such
 
6:17 PM
first A---B C, then C---A----B, then A---B C again, then A B C. i think C initially starts with a charge Q. we were focusing on step 2, which seems subtler than the others.
 
We? :D
 
it's a problem out of the pits of hell. i'm not thankful for it.
ted: i was with you in spirit.
 
Ah.
 
@leslietownes I mean like when we compute area we compute the upper and lower Riemann sums and see if they are equal….
 
well I see it is from wiley that out instructor printed and gave us. My professor know nothing deep about knowledge in physics but he got professorship :(
 
6:18 PM
after 2 i'm not sure why it would make a difference what the initial distribution was. but i spent most of "E&M" gossiping with my lab partner.
 
@Lobic They're essentially NEVER equal.
 
can't ask him so I came here for a hope
 
You take the least upper bound of the lower sums and the greatest lower bound of the upper sums.
 
@BannedUser do you have a picture of the original problem?
 
@leslietownes I think axis of line matters...
 
6:18 PM
lobic: the arc length integral can be thought of as a limit of riemann sums too. this might be clearest in the case where your curve is the graph of a function.
 
that's an image, not a question
you said it was from Wiley
 
The arclength integral is rigorously proved with the mean value theorem, and so on an interval $[t_{i-1},t_i]$, if $c$ is in there, $f'(c)$ is between the minimum and the maximum of $f'$.
@leslie I was assuming he was doing the case of a graph. My bad.
 
@Semiclassical well I draw it from wiley
 
typically when we do problems like "connect charges with wire" the point is that the two spheres have some radius, e.g., physicstasks.eu/300/electrically-connected-charged-balls, and thus the two charges won't be equal after reaching equilibrium
 
6:20 PM
actual version is not in english
 
take the colimits of those diagrams
 
i don't care if it's not in English. i want to see the source
 
so it's not in english. nobody's perfect.
 
In the def of arc length there are no
4
Q: Arc length definition

user4205580I've always felt that the notion of 'area under the curve' is more precise than 'length of a curve', because of the Riemann integral and the reasoning used there: First, we assume the quantity we call area $A$ between the graph of a function and x-axis eixsts. Next, we show that it must necessar...

 
may be this will be clearer
 
6:22 PM
that's not a question. i do not care about the diagram. i want the actual question text.
 
Ok wait I will translate it
 
i'm fine with you not translating it
i mostly want to see if i can track down a version of this problem
 
Consider the three conductor balls A, B. and C. As shown in the picture on the left, the initial load of the three conductor balls is shown on the left, and then the wires are connected and disconnected in order from left to right. In the last step, the ball What is the final charge of A?
 
What is the actual definition of arclength, @Lobic? The integral is the answer, not the actual definition. And I explained to you that there are upper and lower sums there. Did you read what I said?
 
6:26 PM
if we assume the three balls all have the same radius, i can't see how the answer would be anything but Q/3. but evidently you have some kind of answer for this?
 
the answer is Q/4
 
right.
 
I disagree with the Q/3. There is not full symmetry. Shouldn't A balance B and C put together at step 2?
 
surface of a conductor is an equipotential
 
So?
 
6:27 PM
so connecting them with wires should mean that all three balls have the same potential at their surface
 
So if I put in the third wire to create symmetry, it wouldn't change anything?
 
shouldn't, no
 
Hmm.
 
The integral is not the definition of arc length ;it can be proven under some condition that the ientegral gives the arc length ; the usual def is given Dave ullirchs answer and I’m asking why there’s no squeezing in that definition
@TedShifrin
 
Yeah, especially since B and C are already the same.
 
6:29 PM
i'm gonna email my E&M lab partner about this. we'll see what she thinks.
 
@Lobic Did you read what I typed up above?
 
i'm very much ignoring the actual distance between the charges, of course
 
Hope she gets Nobel prize in physics
 
hey, it's leslie, you know, from 1998. we have these charged spheres...
 
$m_i\le \sqrt{1+f'(c_i)^2} \le M_i$, where $m_i$ and $M_i$ are the inf and sup of $\sqrt{1+f'(x)^2}$ on the subinterval. There is the squeezing.
If you want to read about it for parametrized curves, download my diff geo text (link on my profile) and read pp. 6-7.
 
6:31 PM
But that’s not the definition of arc length !
see the answer of ullrich
 
hmm, apparently this question has shown up on PSE before (including giving a source)
3
Q: Charge distribution for three connected conductor spheres

iluvatarIn the auxiliary material of the physics textbook of Halliday, first chapter about electrostatics, there is an example that has the following statement and solution: basically there are three identical conducting spheres. One has a charge $Q$, the others have no charge. The spheres are away fro...

 
tag me if you got answer
thanks for discussing
 
@Lobic It is coming from the definition he gave. That is the length of the polygonal path using the subdivision. On each piece you use the mean value theorem to say the slope is $f'(c_i)$ for some $c_i$ in that piece. Write it all out.
 
my answer (Q/3) is the one which the OP came up with too
so at least i'm in good company :P
 
in the background there's the geometric fact that a straight line path minimizes the distance between points. if you add a substep into a straight line path from A to B the length can only go up. this may or may not be related to what you are uncomfortable with. there's no "signed length" when doing these, the way there is "signed area" in computing random definite integrals.
 
6:36 PM
$\sqrt{(\Delta x)^2 + (\Delta y)^2} = \sqrt{1+(\Delta y/\Delta x)^2}\Delta x$.
 
Not all functions are differentiable @TedShifrin
 
as a test case: if you squeeze a circle horizontally by a factor of two, its area goes down by a factor of 2. but its circumference doesn't change by any easy formula
you have to go to elliptic integrals to get the circumference of an ellipse
 
Oh good grief.
The integral you're talking about is only for differentiable functions.
You need to actually study this stuff and not use SE as a textbook.
 
semi: i don't have to do that. why don't you try and make me do that.
 
I am not talking about any integral!
you brought that up
 
6:38 PM
Yes, that
 
you're talking about arc length
therefore you're talking about an integral
 
no !
 
No, you brought it up at the beginning. Scroll back. You talked about squeezing between upper and lower sums (although you said some wrong stuff).
@Semiclassic
No: The arclength is defined to be the inf of the polygonal lengths.
But Lobic is very confused.
 
@TedShifrin I was talking about area and how areas definition has squeezing but arclenghts doesn’t not
 
6:40 PM
I’m not confused ; there’s a miscommunication
 
OK, correct. The definition of arclength is just an inf. You don't have anything on top.
We assumed you were connecting to integrals when you talked about area.
So, right, arclength is the inf of all polygonal lengths coming from the curve. End of story.
When $f$ is differentiable (say continuously differentiable), then you prove a theorem that you can compute this as an integral.
 
one possible idea for how to make sense of that conducting ball problem is to think about the energy of the system
and figure out which configurations of charge would minimize it
 
But why is there no upper and lower bounds like in area I heard that when Archimedes proved that the ratio of circumference to diameter is constant he used both inscribed and exscribed polygons!
 
for a general space curve there's no inside and outside. with some convexity you might be able to generalize that.
 
Yup, all you can do is join points with line segments.
Oh, I mistyped. The arclength is the SUP, not the INF, of the polygonal lengths. Duh.
 
6:48 PM
Hmm that makes sense so basically there are some bad functions
 
Functions that have arclength are called rectifiable.
 
curves or graphs...
 
Indeed.
OK, I'm disappearing to the kitchen to cook.
 
@TedShifrin so according to Morden def Archimedes didn’t have to consider the exscribed one
 
@leslietownes I wouldn't answer a knock at the door in the near future...
 
6:52 PM
I have one small question: if $T\in L(V)$ then $\lambda $ is an eigenvalue of $T$ iff $\bar{\lambda }$ is an eigenvalue of $T*$, where $T*$ is adjoint of $T$. Is this statement true for infinite dimensional $V$ also?
I think I can prove it only for finite dimensional case. $(\implies)$ there exists a non zero $v$ such that $Tv=\lambda v$ so for any w in V, we have $\langle Tv, w \rangle=\langle v, Tw\rangle \implies \langle v, Tw-\bar{\lambda}w\rangle =0$
 
latex didn't render somehow . I don't know what happened.
 
$\langle Tv, w \rangle=\langle v, Tw\rangle \implies \langle v, Tw-\bar{\lambda}w\rangle =0$
renders fine for me
 
ok. I asked because in the exercise nothing is mentioned about dimension of $V$.
 
probably you should be doing T^* instead
$\langle Tv, w \rangle=\langle v, T^* w\rangle \implies \langle v, T^* w-\bar{\lambda}w\rangle =0$
does that look right?
 
6:57 PM
T^\ast is better $T^\ast$
 
And I couldn't come up with any argument to prove for infinite dimensional V.
 
koro if you fix an orthonormal basis (e_n)_{n=1}^infty of an infinite dimensional hilbert space H, there is a bounded operator S on H satisfying S e_n = e_{n+1} for all n. it has no eigenvalues. its adjoint can be checked to satisfy S* e_n = e_{n-1} for n > 1 and S* e_1 = 0. it has the entire open unit disc for eigenvalues.
 
semiclassical, yes, that looks fine.
 
so S* has a lot of eigenvalues and (S*)* has none.
 
Ah, thanks a lot Leslie.
I couldn't think that on my own :(
 
7:01 PM
the spectrum of T* will be the complex conjugate of the spectrum of T. that's still true. but spectrum is not synonymous with set of eigenvalues (because an operator can fail to be invertible without failing to be one-to-one)
 
@Koro the shift operator is good for several counterexamples.
 
do plain adjoints even make sense in an infinite-dimensional context
you need something more, don't you
cause the canonical injection $V\rightarrow V^{\ast}$ furnished by the inner product ceases to be an iso
 
for operators on hilbert space, sure. more generally the adjoint wants to live somewhere else and not on the original space.
 
@robjohn i think so yeah. :)
 
it seems like every day in november has had something touching on this issue. i wonder why. something in the water, i guess.
koro if you are interested in the infinite dimensional case you might peek at halmos' hilbert space problem book. it would not be useful for exam prep because many of the exercises are too hard to set on an exam. but it includes full solutions. lots of stuff about the operator S (up above) in there.
 
7:05 PM
noted. thanks for the suggestion. I'll try that after I complete Axler's.
 
halmos is similar in expository style and approach as axler. there is a chain of continuity there. halmos was his mathematical grandfather.
 
Paul Halmos.
Ah, he's also the author of Naive set theory.
 
Happy Thanksgiving American math chat.

Been watching some algebraic topology videos and it reminded me of an old thought I had. It seems like the minimum number of charts needed to define an atlas for a manifold would be a reasonable invariant in addition to dimension. But I basically never heard about it in a differential topology course. Does this number have a name? I presume if it isn't used, its either trivial or too hard to figure out.
 
hm. for compact surfaces it seems like one oughta be able to figure it out in terms of the genus. maybe generally it connects somehow to homology groups.
 
the invariant doesn't have a name as far as I know, and you need to make a couple assumptions on which charts you wanna allow. in general, this seems close to impossible to grasp.
but, it does relate to some other invariants. e.g. if you only allow contractible charts, this yields an upper bound on the so-called Lusternik-Schnirelmann category of a manifold, which is an invariant that has been studied
 
7:18 PM
if you allow charts to overlap in particularly nasty ways i dunno. if you want to overlap nicely maybe you can get something close to a minimal triangulation (for surfaces) or decomposition into simplices? which seems hard
 
and the Lusternik-Schnirelmann category is itself connected with other invariants like the cup length, which can be used to give lower bounds on the minimal number of charts with nullhomotopic inclusions needed to cover the manifold in terms of the cohomology ring
a positive result is that if you allow any open subset of R^n to be a chart is that n+1 charts suffice for an n-dimensional manifold
 
well, that handles surfaces pretty nicely. :)
 
well, there's still a bunch of subtleties with surfaces, but you can work this out explicitly with surfaces
it's incredibly important here whether we allow disconnected opens in the cover or not
any orientable surface has a disconnected cover of only two open charts
but I think for a cover by connected charts, you need 3 unless it's the sphere
 
What is the distinction between connected and disconnected charts? Don't know that one
 
twice in two days we've had an issue where the cat sits on a napkin or paper towel that my daughter wants, and my daughter tries to get at the napkin/towel, resulting in unpleasantness. i don't know why they keep playing this out.
 
7:25 PM
just whether the domain of the chart is connected or disconnected
 
one disconnected chart could do the work of several nonintersecting connected charts, it seems.
 
Ah okay, yeah
 
I general $\langle v, a\rangle =\langle v, b\rangle $ does not imply that $a=b$. An example is $\langle 2i+2j,i\rangle =\langle 2i+2j,j\rangle$ but clearly $i\ne j$, where $i,j$ are unit vectors along X and Y axis respectively. But then I am confused as to why $T^\ast$ is linear transformation.
 
yeah, so I think restricting to connected charts is the more natural invariant
 
This would matter for what the number is, but whichever decision you make, the result is still an invariant right, since connectedness is preserved by homeomorphism
 
7:28 PM
sure
 
koro T* v satisfies (Tu, v) = (u, T* v) for all u. the 'for all' is important. not sure how you have defined T* but i agree that it may be hard to verify linearity before knowing that this recipe defines only one thing.
 
We have $\langle Tu, w\rangle =\langle u, T^\ast w\rangle$ we want to show that $T^\ast (w_1+w_2)=T^\ast w_1+T^\ast w_2$ So $\langle Tu, w_1+w_2\rangle =\langle u, T^\ast (w_1+w_2)\rangle\implies \langle Tu, w_1\rangle +\langle Tu, w_2\rangle$
 
it would be helpful to separate out what is true by definition and properties of the inner product from the unproven property of T*. one step at a time.
(Tu, w1 + w2) = (Tu, w1) + (Tu, w2). this is linearity of ( , ). then pop the T's over using the definition of T* w1 and T* w2. then use linearity of ( , ) again. then use the definition of T*.
again, assuming that you know it is a definition.
 
This gives: $\langle u, T^\ast (w_1+w_2)\rangle=\langle Tu, w_1\rangle +\langle Tu, w_2\rangle=\langle u, T^\ast w_1+T^\ast w_2\rangle $. I don't understand how this implies the equality of the entries in second slot considering that such implication is in general not true.
 
you're fixing an arbitrary u here. the equality you're proving holds for all u.
if (u, a) = (u, b) holds for all u, then a = b. we don't have just one chosen u here.
 
7:34 PM
Ah, so $\langle u, T^\ast ()- T^\ast w_1-T^\ast w_2\rangle =0 $ holds for all $u$ so entry in second slot must be zero. Yeah, that makes sense.
 
Yeah, that one is the definition of an inner product. The only element that gives 0 with everyone is 0, and that's still true in infinite dimensions
 
Because $0$ is the only vector that's orthogonal to all vectors.
Thanks a lot, Leslie. My confusion is clear now.
:)
 
now let's do unbounded operators, where T* may have a different domain than T.
just kidding. but if you do look at unbounded operators it's the same calculation, you just mentally pay attention to domains in the background.
so much of unbounded operator stuff is symbolically the same as bounded operator stuff and often with the same but just more carefully written proofs. this is why the physicists can get away with abusing it.
 
here also T is not necessarily an operator. $V$ and $W$ two vector spaces are in action.
 
the thing is that even covers by connected charts seem completely incomprehensible, because we don't even reasonably understand open subsets of $\mathbb{R}^n$ (even for $n=2$, where some things can be said, this is not completely tractible)
 
7:37 PM
Also, I have not yet met definition of unbounded/bounded operators.
 
Everything I know formally about that subject comes from exactly 1 example: the Fourier transforms of temepred distributions
 
so perhaps the better thing to do is add some homotopical condition that makes this susceptible to homotopical and homological analysis (e.g. having nullhomotopic inclusions, which gives the Lusternik-Schnirelmann category) or make a topological assumption like looking at covers by Euclidean balls to make it susceptible to geometric topological methods
in the latter case, you can at least argue some vaguely cool stuff like: if a compact, connected manifold is covered by two Euclidean balls, it's a sphere
 
Yeah, I admit that as stated I have absolutely no intuition about what the "problem" or "obstruction" is that prevents a manifold from being covered by fewer charts
 
which is not surprising given how complicated this invariant is
here's a paper studying it to some degree: core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82000446.pdf
it uses some heavy machinery and still only uncovers partial results in very special cases
(which is not to dismiss the paper, but to emphasize just how difficult this invariant is)
 
Good evening everyone. I have read in a lesson on connectedness the following theorem :
An open set $G \subset \mathbb{C}$ is connected if and only if for any two points
$a, b \in G$ there is a polygon from $a$ to $b$ lying entirely in $G$
Does it have a name to be polygon connected?
 
7:54 PM
by polygon do you mean a path by piecewise straight lines?
 
Yes! I do!
A finite sequence of line segments from $a$ to $b$
 
I think "polygonally path-connected" works as a name
 
Thank you! I have much more results now!
 
That's sorta funny to me Thorgott because it makes me think of the opposite situation of "holes in a manifold". The idea of "holes" is obvious from a picture, but takes a while to formalize and prove that its invariant, but then turns out to be relatively computable. I have no idea what the minimum # of charts means in a picture, but its trivial to formalize and see that its invariant, and yet seems hard to compute.
A similar thing I was thinking of when ruminating on the Hopf fibration was the minimum number of local trivializations required to cover a fibre bundle as a means of categorizing how "far" the bundle is from a global product.
 
8:14 PM
@KevinDriscoll yeah, that's a very instructive thing to realize
 
we generally don't just care for invariants, but only for good invariants, and this puts into perspective just how good homology is, even if it seems much more esoteric in construction at first (of course, there's underlying structural reasons for that, etc.) compared to something as straightforward as a minimal number of charts
as far as fiber or even just vector bundles are concerned, the minimum number of elements of a trivialization will be just as hard, if not even harder
 
8:41 PM
So are the homotopy groups "good"?
I think that is kind of on the edge in some respects.
 
they're better than good, they're great!
 
well, $\pi_1$ is lovely
the higher ones, uh, well, they're arguably still good
 
I feel like "good" isn't too well defined.
 
but "good" should not just mean "computable", which they oftentimes aren't either
 
@leslietownes tony townes
 
8:47 PM
they're good, because they're structurally relevant in encoding important information about spaces
meanwhile it's not clear at all what the least number of charts required to cover a manifold actually encodes (other than the very thing that defines it)
but I'm not a homotopy theorist, so I really shouldn't be defending homotopy groups here
 
Thorgott, defender of the homotopy theorists
Misunderstood the assignment and forgot that we are supposed to bash them when no one is around.
But Thorgott did bash anyone who does LS stuff.
So I guess tomato tomato
 
I recently explained to a friend how homotopy groups are really just instantiations of the fact that spheres are naturally cogroup objects in the pointed homotopy category. I felt dirty afterwards
7
 
great use of "_ is just _"
 
exactly
 
I suspect there is a "good frontier" which is constantly moving. As new results are proved, things can get moved into and out of the "good" category
 
8:54 PM
i had to star it. that should have five stars. i assume the only reason it doesn't is because too many americans are eating.
 
@KevinDriscoll Well I think it is a little hard to tell what is good universally and stuff. Like Thorgott implied that the minimal number of charts is a bad one, even though it's the basis for other ideas in homotopy theory.
I think that's justt because he's not a pro homotopy theorist, like he said
But a pro homotopy theorist might not be aware of other invariants from e.g. knot theory.
Because they simply don't care.
 
you're too kind, leslie
3
also, I forgot to consider this possibility, but minimal number of charts required in a good cover might be a not that bad invariant
at least it will also give some interesting cohomological bounds by virtue of $\v{C}$ech
urgh I forgot how to do the name properly
 
It is the LS category if we restrict to nice enough charts.
Which is most definitely a good thing.
 
why would that be the same thing?
 
Minimal number of contractible charts isn't it?
 
9:05 PM
good cover means all intersections are contractible
which (at least a priori) is much stronger
 
10:04 PM
@Thorgott I don't mean "nice enough" as the technical term good. I meant that the LS category just requires our charts to have contractible domain.
Unless you are saying LS actually needs a (technical) good cover?
Whatever buffoon made the term good for this is horrible.
 
no, I'm saying LS is different than the minimal number of charts in a good cover because "cover where all intersections are contractible" is strictly weaker than "cover where all elements have nullhomotopic inclusions"
LS of $S^1$ is 2, but minimal number of charts in a good cover of $S^1$ is 3
 
I never said anything about good covers :(((
 
I misunderstood then, sorry
 
they're grrrrreat covers!
 
Tony the tiger strikes again
 
 
1 hour later…
11:19 PM
@TedShifrin Thanks Ted! Happy Thanksgiving to you too!
 
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