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9:03 PM
Do you have the video onhand where he says a cheetah runs to reduce its entropy?
 
I think that's part 1
I forgot where it is exactly
Oh no it's this exactly
General question: How do you intuit $\Bbb P(|X - \Bbb E X| > a) \leq \text{Var}(X)/a^2$. Obviously the RHS and LHS are related, variance of a random variable is a measure of how much it deviates from it's expectation. Why is the inequality obvious?
 
Because $X - \Bbb E X$ wants to reduce its entropy
I dunno
 
Lmao
It makes no sense to me. Tail of the random variable (centered at expectation) is bounded by the scaled variance. What?
 
9:21 PM
it's just a special case of Markov
 
That's not an answer to my question
I know how to prove it. It doesn't tell me why the inequality is clear
 
is Markov clear to you?
 
It's less clear than this particular inequality
At least I know why two sides of the inequality here are related
$\Bbb P(X > a) \leq \Bbb EX/a$ for a positive random variable $X$. What??
Markov is a useful calculation lemma objectively not a theorem
 
You were calling probability intuitive just yesterday
 
This is an easier inequality than Sobolev inequality, Alessandro
Probability is objectively more intuitive than analysis
 
9:26 PM
Ah damn I forgot about the half where you complained about inequalities here
@BalarkaSen I'm not sure I agree
 
write it $a\mathbb{P}(X\ge a)\le\mathbb{E}[X]$
 
@Thorgott You're just going to rewrite me a proof of Markov, which defeats the purpose of the question
(1) Markov is a calculation lemma, it is useless to interpret it (2) There is a significant and nonobvious gap in going from Markov to Chebyshev, Chernoff, etc... which is to modify the event $X > a$ to an event $f(X) > f(a)$ for some appropriate $f$
(2) is the magic trick
a calculation and a magic trick does not explain the final result
It only proves it
 
It's not useless to interpret. I'm saying that this is so close to tautologous that the actual proof and the intuition are basically the same. If the probability that $X\ge a$ is $c$, then your expected value will be at least $ca$. That's basically just how expectation works. It's a quantitative description of the idea that if you know where a distribution is centered, it can't grow much larger too often.
 
Anyway I don't expect an algebraist to tell me how to intuit an inequality :P Did you prove the $d\omega$ thing?
It is not a tautology. Objectively false. Do the forms calculation
 
Don't get hung up on words
 
9:33 PM
What are words?
 
Your quantitative description tells me why $\Bbb P(|X - \Bbb E X| > a)$ and $\text{Var}(X)$ are related; it doesn't give me an inequality
 
This belligerence is more Arnol'd than Gromov
 
ROFL, very apt.
 
I take that as a compliment
 
it does, though
 
9:36 PM
How?
Don't write a proof
 
you're choosing to get hung up on the squaring thing for some reason, but that's the actual calculation part
 
I should have grabbed some popcorn before joining the chat tonight
 
I agree (1) and (2) are both calculation. (2) is magic trick because it applies to squares and exponentials both, and somehow gives tighter bounds if you take $e^{\lambda X}$, and then optimize over $\lambda$, like Chernoff does
(2) is in this sense more of a mnemonic than (1), which is just pure calculation. (1) is just how integration works
It is easy to write down a proof as an answer to "why is blah inequality intuitively clear?". For example, suppose $X_1, \cdots, X_n$ are iid random variables, and $Y_1, \cdots, Y_n$ are iid copies of these iid random variables. Then $\text{Var} f(X_1, \cdots, X_n) \leq \sum_{i = 1}^n \Bbb E[f(X_1, \cdots, X_i, \cdots, X_n) - f(X_1, \cdots, Y_i, \cdots, Y_n)]_+^2$
 
hands @Alessandro popcorn
 
I don't know why you think proof and intuition are mutually exclusive. The Markov inequality is so simple to prove that I don't know if I can say anything about it without that being equivalent to a proof once converted into formal language.
 
9:41 PM
How do you interpret that?
 
Thanks Ted
 
Again, the two sides of the inequality are obviously related
 
Heya @Alex, stranger.
 
the fluctuations of $f(X_1, \cdots, X_n)$ from it's central tendency is measured by how much it depends on each of the variables $X_i$ --- but what is the inequality until you write it down?
 
Howdy @Ted! How goes it?
 
9:43 PM
Still bumbling along, and you?
 
(I too couldn't resist watching this Balarka argument. =P)
 
Hi Alex
 
@Thorgott Markov is obvious, yes, hence my comment that it is useless to interpret it. It doesn't tell you anything
 
I don't think Chernoff is surprising. You're fabricating a family of bounds and pick the best one. That ought to give you a better bound than just taking one. It's a clever and non-obvious trick for sure, but it's also just calculation.
 
I forget. Are you on the way out?
No pressure.
 
9:44 PM
Not so bad. Finally have a paper on the arXiv, so that's been nice.
Hey Mike!
 
I don't think it's useless to interpret something obvious.
 
Nope, not yet lol. Maybe one of these days =P
 
@Thorgott But there's a point, which because clearer if you just forget the proof and the $e^X$ trick.
Having exponential moment gives you exponentially decaying tails.
Any pure statistician can tell you this without knowledge of Chernoff
People didn't just cook up the trick out of thin air. They knew it should happen, so they decided it's better to compare $e^{\lambda X}$ with $e^{\lambda a}$ than $X$ and $a$
This happens all the time in probability. Some inequality should happen, so you just have to find a way to get there by some obvious inequalities (like Markov)
 
I hope you're well, at least, is the important thing
 
What does "having exponential moment" mean? You make it sound like an intrinsic thing, but it's a trick where we replace the moment with the moment of sth else
 
9:49 PM
It is not a trick man
That's a wrong way to think about things, you'll end up naming every concentration inequality a trick
I know this is objectively not how a probabilist understands these inequalities
 
Ah, yes, I remember when Alex started grad school and Mike was the elder statesman :P
 
Having exponential moment means the random variable has the Laplace transform, $\Bbb E\exp(\lambda X)$ exists. Or we think about it as having the moment generating function
 
Ditto!
I'm pretty sure that's still true, @Ted
 
Whatever man this is getting annoying to argue. Your intuition is not useful for me
 
You are now the elder statesman there, Alex :)
 
9:53 PM
Oh, right. A very esteemed position :)
 
ah, sure, the inequality is meaningless otherwise
so your point is that if moments still exist after blowing the variable up, you can get bounds on the tails that blow down proportionally fast?
 
But people didn't get to that condition because they want to make that inequality true jesus christ
 
Or maybe esteamed, @Alex.
 
@Thorgott yeah
 
but that's intuitive
it's a pure analysis thing even
 
9:55 PM
No it is not pure analysis Christ
OK it is pure analysis
I am not gonna argue anymore
 
the probabilistic ingredient is Markov
 
Markov is not a probabilistic ingredient it is how integration works
 
It's true @Ted: I'm cooked!
 
gives Balarka a Xanax
 
God damnit
 
9:56 PM
Speaking of steaming =P
 
LOL
 
the fact that faster decaying tails give faster convergence is just how integration works too
 
You literally wrote the opposite thing of Chernoff
read that sentence man
 
morally it's a two-way street
 
No it is the confusion of which direction the inequality goes
I rest my case
 
9:59 PM
michael_jackson_popcorn.gif
 
no, the intuition goes both ways
faster convergence both requires and is caused by tails that decay fast
 
No comments
 
@Fargle: What differential topology have you brought to discuss?
 
I am done talking probability with an algebraist
4
 
Damn, that's the second Balarka thing I've starred today.
 
10:01 PM
Hey! What did the algebraists ever do?
 
even if you don't believe that's how it works, that doesn't change that this is a purely analytic point
that doesn't mean it can't reflect a truth about probabilistic objects, but this is equally true for both Markov and Chernoff
it's not congruent to say that Markov is just how integration works and then act as if Chernoff is a quell of new insight
 
@TedShifrin did you star mike calling me a fraud
 
Of course.
 
@AlexWertheim i dunno, caused moral degradation of a generation of mathematicians
like deligne man
 
mate do i look like deligne to you
 
10:06 PM
yes
 
well, then at least youre overestimating me
 
no im insulting you
 
throws ice on the room
 
(im actually laughing irl)
 
a sign of your dwindling sanity
 
10:08 PM
@Balarka what's your problem with Deligne, exactly?
 
@AlexWertheim he's butting in everywhere thats my problem
i would have no qualms if he did l adic cohomology and representation theory
 
can't believe I'm being discredited for doing algebra by someone who idolizes the guy advocating that probability should be done categorically
 
Gromov actually knows how to use category theory
he invented the notion of a site way before it became popular
 
thats what soft sheaves of pseudotopological spaces are
it's in "Partial Differential Relations"
phd thesis
 
10:11 PM
Hi all.
 
@BalarkaSen I've heard people saying this is harder to read than Federer
 
PDR is an amazing read
 
Sites have been around since before Gromov's thesis, have they not?
 
i guess yeah
 
Well the people who said that are analysts
 
10:12 PM
How do you even find somethign that defines with a site is
 
@Alessandro of course, why should you believe them
 
"Site mathematics" gives no results
Just mathematics sites
 
lmfao
 
Use the search function on the nlab, why are you even looking up math on a different website
 
Because he wants to be able to read the page he finds
 
10:13 PM
stacks project > nlab
 
algebraists aren't allowed to talk probability, but topologists are allowed to talk category theory
clearly your standards are off
 
"A site is a presentation of a sheaf topos as a structure freely generated under colimits from a category, subject to the relation that certain covering colimits are preserved." here you go
 
gag me
 
oh my god Thorgott whines so much
 
10:14 PM
All you need is the mlab
 
@Balarka did you upvote YCor's answers to my growth rate/amenability question earlier? He just commented twice lol
 
@Thorgott Gromov's formalization program is honestly a bit over the board though
 
Actually three times now, solving the three remaining squares
 
Haha oh
Yeah I did upvote
 
orly
 
10:17 PM
I guessed so, it was too much of a coincidence that he stumbled on that question again just today
 
thats nice of him to pass by
 
If I remember right there's some issue with what Gromov does with his pseudospace junk
 
lmao yeah
its all wrong
his standard response when people tells him things are wrong is, in thick russian accent: SO WHAT? INTERESTING EXAMPLE JAJAJA
according to people i know who know gromov
i think thats what he said when Yau disproved some conjecture of his
theres also the story of how Gromov once said there are only 5 examples of some thing (this is probably in PDR) and curt mcmullen was trying hard to find the 5th one until he found infinitely many
 
lol
 
Gromov doesn't make mistakes, he takes poetic licenses
 
10:26 PM
exactly
enough fanboying for today, i'll head to bed
i'll try to read the chapter on delta-hyperbolicity from Bridson-Haefliger tomorrow
 
11:16 PM
@TedShifrin Immersions bad.
 
embeddings better
 
Yeah
At least embeddings aren't almost always disgusting
It is funny to see the asymmetry between immersions and submersions.
 
What asymmetry do you have in mind
 
Immersions need bigly extra properties, but you only need, say, submersion on a fiber to be able to say nice things
 
Hmm, that might be more of the general asymmetry between pre-images and images than a particular asymmetry of immersions and submersions
 
11:28 PM
That is true
But it is still funny to see
 
There's lot's of symmetry between immersions and submersions otherwise
 
Well yeah, sure
 
Both are of maximal rank, both have a similar local form by the rank theorem, both are one set-theoretic and one topological property apart from being as nice as you could want them to be
 
It's all just boneless linear algebra
just let me enjoy things >:(
 
"Wait, it's all linear algebra?"
"Always has been"
 
11:32 PM
Wait why are immersions bad man
Just assume proper
 
@Fargle I don't understand what that means tbh, what example do you have in mind?
 
I assumed he means stuff like the infinitely looping line on the torus
 
@MikeMiller Line of irrational slope in square -> torus
yep
immersion everywhere, still bad
 
submersion on a fiber implies that fiber is a submanifold
 
Properness kills those kind of examples
 
11:33 PM
yeah, if you assume an immersion/submersion to be injective/surjective and proper, you get nice things
 
Eh, fine
 
whats wrong with noninjective immersions
 
image nonmanifold
 
they are almost always very good looking shapes
you can make the self-intersections good
 
they're not embeddings
 
11:34 PM
I think the asymmetry is what you expect to happen here
 
I don't mean to say it's unexpected
 
I'm not saying they're horrible
 
I'm just easily amused
 
"Image manifold" and "fiber manifold" sound like different properties to me, not asymmetric behavior of the same kind of property
The former seems more global than the latter
 
pretend I said that then
 
11:35 PM
it's asymmetry already because image and pre-image are very asymmetric
 
whatever it is I'm amused by it
 
There's some real asymmetry in the sense that it's harder to modify maps to be submersions easily
There are less examples of submersions than immersions in appropriate sense
Immersions are abundant
 
I'm not even fully one chapter into this book, I just want to rub my two brain cells together and go "hee hee it do easy thing with fiber but immersion bad"
 
It's a good thing to do; it might be possible to notice early in a topology course that submersions are scarce
i have never actually thought of that
I know why this is true though
 
I can kind of half-convince myself that it makes some sense
 
11:39 PM
Anyone here use supercomputers?
 
global submersions require that every fiber be a submanifold, but global immersions don't require any similar thing for their codomain
 
yeah its a strong restriction
the former i mean
 
ye
 
Good point
@MikeMiller The point here I think is that the h-principle holds for immersions but not submersions
submersions with mild singularities are however again quite abundant
 
I'm really hoping that the h-principle is just "h"
 
11:40 PM
Lol
 
The point for you, I don't care about this point
 
wow, I could almost feel the Gromov drop in the air before it came
 
can't wait to buy Miller vs Gromov: Infinite
 
do you know what the tangent bundle is yet
 
hmm so human eye color perception works like this right upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/…
and then if we have light with a frequency distribution $f(x)$ where $x$ is the wavelength, we can have another function $g$ which has the same response to all three cones
(now forget about the physics)
i.e. $\int_\mathbb{R} c_1(x)f(x)dx=\int_\mathbb{R} c_1(x)g(x)dx$ and the same for $c_2$ and $c_3$
intuitively, I believe that there are many of these functions. But what if we require them to be "nice", which sense of nice defines an interesting equivalence relation?
Furthermore, for some measure of size in the set of functions from R to R, what is the size of the set of functions with the same color as $f$?
 
11:59 PM
What's your question? What is the set of functions for which $\int c_1 h = 0$? ($h$ is your $f - g$)
 
@BalarkaSen From other sources, so maybe not in exactly the same sense, but yes
 

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