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8:00 PM
$y=\text{Percentage}(25,10,40)$ doesn't mean that $y=\text{Percentage}(g(25),g(10),g(40))$, where $g(x)$ is an arbitrary function, in this case $g(x)=\sqrt{\frac{x}{10}}$. It means so if $g(x)=a\times x$ where $a$ is a constant @Dragneel
 
I see. So it only works if the function $g(x)$ is a linear, and not exponential.
 
8:15 PM
@Dragneel just a side note $x^2 * 10$ is really UGLY. Use $10\,x^2$ instead ;-)
 
This case $g$ is polynomial of degree 2, no exponential* but generally yes @Dragneel
 
@LeakyNun btw I can explain Mahlo cardinals too.
 
please do
 
Oof you're hear already
So a set $C$ is a club set of a limit ordinal $\alpha$ if $C$ is unbounded and closed in $\alpha$.
Unbounded meaning it goes arbitrarily high in $\alpha$ and closed meaning that if $B\subset C$ and $\sup(B)\in\alpha$, then $\sup(B)\in C$.
Make sense so far?
 
yes
 
8:21 PM
A set $S$ is stationary in a limit ordinal $\alpha$ if it intersects every club set of $\alpha$.
 
@TedShifrin $f_n(x)=e^{-nx^2}$ is uniformly convergent on $[-1,1]\backslash\{0\}$. This is because $e^{-n0^2}=1$ regardless of what $n$ is. Right? In my case, with $$f_n(x)=\frac{x}{1+nx^2}$$, $x=0$ isn't a problem because it equals $f(x)$ there. For all other $x\in\Bbb{R}$ it's fine as well. So the subset of $\Bbb{R}$ is $\Bbb{R}$. No?
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt ok
 
(club is actually a contraction of CLosed and UnBounded)
 
aahhh
 
oof noice
 
8:22 PM
@OskarTegby I don't think it's uniformly convergent
 
An ordinal is Mahlo (using my definition) if it is regular and the set of regular ordinals in it is stationary.
 
is there 'nother definition?
 
@TedShifrin The same is not true for the derivative $$f_n'(x)=\frac{1-nx^2}{(1+nx^2)^2}$$ as $f_n'(0)\neq f'(0)$ for all $n\in\Bbb{N}$.
@LeakyNun No?
 
Usually one uses the set of inaccessible ordinals instead of the set of regular ordinals.
 
Want to know about measurable cardinals as well? (those are the only large cardinals I know something about)
 
8:24 PM
sure @AlessandroCodenotti
seguramente
 
@TedShifrin Help me remember the result of Weyl on tubes again: the polynomial in r you get is supposed to be about the intrinsic geometry of the submanifold, but not the extrinsics of the normal bundle?
 
So an ultrafilter on a set $X$ is closed under finite intersections
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt is there any example?
 
(You can show that Mahlo cardinals are inaccessible, inaccessible limits of inaccessibles, inaccessible limits of inaccessible limits of inaccessibles, etc.)
 
never mind
 
8:26 PM
lol
 
We say that an ultrafilter is $\kappa$-complete if it is closed under intersections of families of cardinality $\leq \kappa$
 
how do you show that the inexistence of inaccesibile is unprovable from ZFC?
 
(Note that inaccessible limits of inaccessibles shares an analogous thing with regular limits of regular ordinals)
@LeakyNun idk
 
@LeakyNun Because ZFC proves that $V_\kappa$ models ZFC for inaccessible $\kappa$ I guess
 
that's the existence
 
8:28 PM
Oh, of course, I can't read
 
(Well I'm gonna go shower; I can also explain why Mahlo's are "very inaccessible" when I come back)
 
ok
 
Well, going back to measurable cardinals. It's easy to prove that if $\kappa$ is a cardinal there is no $\kappa$-complete ultrafilter on $\kappa$ (exercise), so the next best we can ask is that there is an ultrafilter on $\kappa$ that is $\lambda$-complete for all $\lambda<\kappa$. Such a $\kappa$ is called measurable
 
Let's say we have two models of ZFC with inaccessibles
for each model, we take the smallest one and then call it kappa and consider L[kappa]
do we get isomorphic models of ZFC?
 
Interestingly ZFC can't prove that there are measurable cardinals, but it can prove that if there exist an uncountable cardinal admitting an $\omega$-complete ultrafilter (also known as an $\omega$-measurable cardinal) then there is a measurable cardinal
(The uncountable in my previous sentence is completely superfluous)
Oh, and all ultrafilters are non principal, principal ultrafilters are clearly $\kappa$-complete for all $\kappa$
 
8:32 PM
Do yoU HaVe An ExAmPlE Of A MeAsUrAbLe CaRdInAl?
come pensi di ultrafilters?
 
@LeakyNun No, they're huge and don't necessarily exist
@LeakyNun Kinda like measures but not quite
There is indeed a connection between ultrafilters and finitely additive measures
 
trovo che filters sono difficile per imaginare
 
(which is why those cardinals are called measurable by the way, it's not a random name)
 
I can't decide between reading Jech Set Theory and reading Lubin-Tate theory
 
I know nothing of the first and way less of the second so you shouldn't ask me :D
 
8:36 PM
what is way less than nothing?
 
I know so little algebra that I have negative knowledge of the topic
If you talk with me about it you'll unlearn what you know :P
 
lol
@AlessandroCodenotti come va p-adics?
 
I've been busy today (returned home from holidays) so i haven't made any progress
And it's my birthday tomorrow so I'll probably spend more time celebrating than doing maths
 
k, back
@AlessandroCodenotti celebrate it by doing math
and happy early b day
 
8:43 PM
15 mins ago, by Simply Beautiful Art
(Well I'm gonna go shower; I can also explain why Mahlo's are "very inaccessible" when I come back)
 
:P
It's probably better we take a step back and talk about these "very inaccessible" things
I don't recall the exact terminology (which is probably on the wikipedia page) but let's call our old (weakly) inaccessibles "0-inaccessible"
1-inaccessibles will be regular limits of 0-inaccessibles
2-inaccessibles will be regular limits of 1-inaccessibles
etc.
 
it seems that for every limit cardinal k that I can think of, cf(k)<k
 
Yes, that's true for any non-regular cardinal
 
so by induction, cf(k)<k for all limit cardinal
 
8:47 PM
can you give me a limit cardinal k with cf(k)>omega?
 
$\aleph_{\omega_1}$
 
ok, aleph[omega[1]]
...
 
cf(aleph[omega[beta]]) = cf(aleph[beta])?
 
8:51 PM
can there be any regular limit cardinal below phi(1,0)?
 
why?
 
We defined $\varphi(1,0)$ to be the first fixed-point, right?
 
@Oskar: Nope, not uniform on $[-1,1]-\{0\}$. Think pictorially. Draw an $\epsilon$-"fence" around the graph of the limit function. You need all the graphs of $f_n$ for $n\ge N$ to fit everywhere inside that $\epsilon$-fence.
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt yes
 
8:53 PM
M'kay.
I'm gonna use ordinals, cuz using aleph is somewhat annoying to look at
 
@Alessandro: Happy almost birthday!
 
birthdayn't
 
If $\alpha$ is not a fixed-point of $\nu\mapsto\omega_\nu$, then $\alpha<\omega_\alpha$
 
Hey everyone!
 
And by what you wrote, you can show the cofinality of $\omega_\alpha$ is $\alpha$.
Hey Daminark
 
8:56 PM
There is a general cofinality issue with "least" fixed points. Think about fixed points of the aleph function $\alpha\mapsto\aleph_\alpha$, you can climb to the first fixed point by defining $\gamma_0=0$, $\gamma_{n+1}=\aleph_{\gamma_n}$ and taking the sup of the $\gamma_n$, so it has countable cofinality, hence ZFC proves that it isn't inaccessible
 
@MikeM: The coefficients are in fact integrals of various invariant polynomials in the curvature tensor. But they arise extrinsically (and can be interpreted by taking an actual $\epsilon$ tube and looking at its geometry, then averaging appropriately). This is what Lipschitz-Killing curvatures are.
hi Demonark
 
Thanks @Ted
 
Hey @Daminark
and @AlessandroCodenotti
 
The cool thing, @MikeM, is that for complex manifolds (say in $\Bbb C^n$ or $\Bbb CP^n$), all the coefficients are topologically invariant. This is because they're all built out of Chern forms.
@Alessandro: A special party arranged with the boar and zebras?
 
In fact you can keep iterating that construction by defining $\gamma_\beta=\sup\{\gamma_\alpha\mid\alpha<\beta\}$ when $\beta$ is a limit, then you have $\aleph_{\gamma_\beta}=\gamma_\beta$ for all limit $\beta$
 
8:58 PM
Eh wait no, I meant to say that the cofinality of $\omega_\alpha$ is the cofinality of $\alpha$.
 
So not only the least fixed point can't be inaccessible, but every fixed point which can be proved to be the least fixed point above some given ordinal will suffer from the same cofinality issue
 
@AlessandroCodenotti for continuous functions*
 
I'm only talking about the $\alpha\mapsto\aleph_\alpha$ function right now, but I agree it can be generalized
 
Note that one could say an ordinal is inaccessible iff it is a fixed-point of $\alpha\mapsto\alpha$-th regular ordinal.
 
@TedShifrin Nope, I returned home today
 
9:01 PM
Oh well.
 
but the omega-th fixed point has cofinality omega oof
 
@Ted Yeah, that is cool. I tried to explain the result to the topologists but messed up and cited the second fundamental form.
Not very intrinsic.
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt the first regular cardinal is omega[1] right
aleph[1]
 
9:03 PM
Well, it starts out with the second fundamental form, but then because of the invariance it turns into stuff in curvature. Remember that the generalization of the Gauss equation actually relates intrinsic curvature to second fundamental form (and in Euclidean space there's no ambient curvature term). @MikeM
 
and the omega-th one is omega[omega+1]
 
@LeakyNun $\aleph_0$ is regular
 
Yes
oof shoot
 
Yup. Got it
 
9:03 PM
BTW, @MikeM: I emailed our mutual friend and got no response. Has he actually finished? I found evidence of him at USC.
 
this is getting nowhere
 
Well that's the point
 
@Leaky: You're best at getting nowhere.
 
(It's very common to only consider uncountable cardinals anyway in this kind of discussions because otherwise you have to specify it to avoid having $\omega$ strongly inaccessible or other weird stuff)
 
9:04 PM
You can pretty easily show that the cofinality of the $\alpha$-th fixed-point is less than or equal to the cofinality of $\alpha$.
 
I think if k is limit then the k-th regular cardinal is aleph[k+1]
 
@LeakyNun no
This holds true if and only if inaccessible cardinals don't exist
 
remove "if k is limit"
 
If they did, then that breaks exactly at inaccessible cardinals
 
the k-th regular cardinal is aleph[k+1]
 
9:06 PM
Still no if inaccessible cardinals exist
 
and if two inaccessible cardinals exist then the k-th one is aleph[k-1]?
 
no
well
I mean with cardinal subtraction yeah
cuz k-1 = k
for infinite k
Indeed we can easily prove the I-th regular cardinal is aleph[I], where I = inaccessible.
 
I think there are exactly 7 cardinals
 
@Ted I think he did and got a maybe 1-year job at USC. I was trying to find out how his thesis went etc but couldn't find the news.
 
:galaxy_brain:
 
9:09 PM
ok if I is inaccessible then the (I+n)-th regular cardinal is aleph[I+n] where n is finite
and then after get we get an off-by-one error again
until the next inaccessible
 
@LeakyNun one could argue such. I claim they are $0, -1, \pi, 42, \mathfrak c,$ and $\aleph_{1.5}$.
 
is part of the joke that you only listed 6?
 
@LeakyNun yes
@LeakyNun what's 6?
 
the 7-th cardinal, obviously
 
9:10 PM
A : they are 0, -1, pi, 42, c, aleph[1.5]
B : but there are only 6 of them
A : you just said the last one
 
I'll ask ko whenever I see him
 
Ah, OK. Say hi to Ko for me, too :)
 
Baka!
Well anyways
Tell me when you're ready to move past these to bigger inaccessibles
or not
Oh hey, @Daminark uses thonk pfp
:thonk:
 
I'm ready milord
 
Okay, so if we let $I(\alpha)$ be the $\alpha$-th inaccessible...
Then you'll notice that $\sup_{n\in\mathbb N}I(n)$ is not regular
 
9:15 PM
:asksrhjer7fdhjfa:
 
In fact, you'll notice that it seems the limit of inaccessibles cannot be regular
or so it would seem
So hence we have the 1-inaccessibles
Which are regular limits of inaccessibles
 
nobody got the xkcd reference :(
 
oof
Similar to before, you can show that these are much larger than things such as $\sup\{I(0), I(I(0)), I(I(I(0))), \dots\}$
Similar to the aleph fixed-point
Likewise you can show that recursively generalizing this will always yield smaller than the first 1-inaccessible (on inputs smaller than the first 1-inaccessible)
These will also satisfy $\kappa=I(\kappa)$, just like how inaccessibles satisfy $\kappa=\kappa$-th regular
 
what if there's only one inaccessible
 
Well of course, the existence of a 1-inaccessible requires very many inaccessibles
If not enough inaccessibles exist, then 1-inaccessibles (and practically most large cardinals) don't exist.
 
9:22 PM
how about kappa-inaccessible
 
Well let's call those (1,0)-inaccessible
$\kappa$ is (1,0)-inaccessible if it is $\kappa$-inaccessible
And then regular limits of these will be (1,1)-inaccessible
etc.
These sorts of generalizations are all trumped by Mahlo cardinals, if you want to start going through that
 
this is all ridiculous
just like trump
 
what is an ordinal?
 
I like to use the Von Neumann definition
 
9:26 PM
namely
 
strictly well-ordered over $\in$ and elements are subsets.
 
is there another definition?
 
Yes, there's multiple definitions on the wikipedia link
 
wait how is it equivalent to it being a transitive set of transitive sets
 
I don't know the details to that tbh, can look it up if you want
Lol, I wonder who thought it was a good idea to put 20 examples or so of transitive sets on the wikipedia for transitive sets.
 
9:34 PM
is omega absolute between different models?
 
Idk much about models either
:P
 
ok so what is a Mahlo cardinal?
 
It's easier to think of it with ordinals.
imo at least
$\alpha$ is Mahlo if the set of regular ordinals in it is stationary.
 
ok
 
A set $S$ is stationary in $\alpha$ if it intersects every club set.
A set $C$ is a club set of $\alpha$ if it is closed and unbounded in $\alpha$.
 
9:39 PM
and why should I care about Mahlo cardinals?
 
Well they make for good ingredients for ordinal collapsing functions
:-)
(gonna eat dinner now, bbl8r)
 
what is the smallest undefinable ordinal
and how is that not a definition
 
10:13 PM
@LeakyNun probably means it can't be defined within some formal language
 
right
 
Forgot to mention that Mahlo cardinals/ordinals are regular
Since the set of regular ordinals in $\alpha$ are unbounded, $\alpha$ must be a limit of regular ordinals.
 
is there a Mahlo ordinal that is not a Mahlo cardinal?
 
Assuming cardinals are ordinals, I'm pretty certain the answer is no
 
ok
 
10:16 PM
Since $\alpha$ must be regular, this means it must be inaccessible.
However, we can easily see it cannot be the first inaccessible.
Consider the set ordinals $\omega_\nu$ for limit $\nu$ less than $\alpha$.
 
is [0,alpha] compact for every ordinal alpha?
yes, and I just proved it in my head
 
:P define compact for me
 
the topology is generated by sets of the form [0,beta), (beta,gamma), (gamma,alpha]
@SimplyBeautifulArt btw I don't think you can always index inaccessible cardinals from the inside?
 
@LeakyNun wdym
 
nvm
 
10:23 PM
@LeakyNun I think so
Did you mean that we have stuff like $\kappa=I(\kappa)$?
 
I don't know what I meant
 
btw if k is limit then [k,alpha) is transitive?
nvm
see you
 
Uh
okay lol
cya
In general, consider an ordinal of the form "limit of ... which is regular" and the corresponding club set who's elements are of the form "limit of ... which may or may not be regular" and you'll see the Mahlo ordinals must be inaccessible, 1-inaccessible, (1,0)-inaccessible, etc. with every sort of "inaccessible extension".
 
Hi, I'm wondering if any intersection of unions can be expressed as a union of intersections. I want to know if this is correct so I don't duplicate a question: In math.stackexchange.com/questions/1576633/… there is a line going from $\forall i\in I\exists j\in J,x\in X_{ij}$ to $\exists j_i\in J^I\forall i\in I,x\in X_{ij_i}$.
Is that legitimate? The function seems like it should be in $J^I$, defined coordinatewise, but I'm not sure.
instead of $j_i\in J^I$, lets write $f\in J^I$, and the function $f:I\to J$ i think they have in mind is defined by $f(i)=j$ for some $j$ that exists by the previous line $\exists j\in J$. Then the $x\in X_{ij_i}$ should say $x\in X_{if(i)}$. but i'm not sure this function actually exists
 
11:22 PM
Hi @TedShifrin
Why is the affine linear sub space of $\Bbb R^n$ a smooth manifold?
 
Why not, @quallenjäger? It's the simplest thing you could possibly have.
There's one chart for it. If it's an affine $k$-dimensional subspace through the point $a\in\Bbb R^n$, it's diffeomorphic to the linear subspace, which is in turn diffeomorphic to $\Bbb R^k$.
 
11:43 PM
@TedShifrin Can I get a Linear space by substracting every vector by $a$?
 
Yup.
 
I see.
 
Or, more directly, if $v_1,\dots,v_k$ is a basis for the linear space parallel to your set $S$, you get a global parametrization $\phi\colon\Bbb R^k\to S\subset\Bbb R^n$ by taking $\phi(t_1,\dots,t_k) = a + \sum t_i v_i$.
 
By the way, what is the definition of diffeomorph? Bijection + differentiable and differentiable inverse?
 
yes, although most of us say smooth rather than (once) differentiable. You definitely want continuously differentiable however many times.
 
11:45 PM
That is what confuses me.
 
Which is?
 
I mean for a smooth manifold one need the chart to be smooth
 
Why does that confuse you?
 
but if it is only diffeomorph (differentiable), it is not enough?
 
Diffeomorphism for most of us does mean a smooth map with smooth inverse. Just saying.
 
11:46 PM
Ok, I need to read out of context then?
 
Most people make their meaning clear at some point.
 
I see.
 
hihi
 
Thanks Ted.
By the way, what does it mean for a series to be locally finite?
 
There are various technical reasons smooth is better than just $C^1$. You need smooth to say that the tangent space comes from derivations, for example. With $C^1$ (or finite $C^k$) there are infinitely many independent derivations.
heya Eric. How was the talk?
 
11:48 PM
she did extremely good
it feels very nice to have students who care
 
I see, good point.
 
@quallenjäger: Usually it's a collection of sets that's locally finite. You're talking about an infinite series of functions? Give me detail.
That's awesome, Eric. I'm sure you've been a great mentor ...
 
ive tried to be useful anyway
currently im in the age old battle of figuring out how the hell to navigate the quagmire of race/ethnicity bubbles on applications lol
highly annoying
 
Oh, why does that cause you such issues?
 
Hey. Anyone wanna take a stab at this measure theory problem with me? It should be easy lol, somehow missing the idea, so a hint would be cool: Show that if f: R->R is (once) everywhere differentiable then f' is Borel measurable.
(You may assume that f is exactly once differentiable, otherwise it is trivial)
 
11:51 PM
@Drew: Hint: Definition of the derivative.
 
@TedShifrin bc idk what the hell i am lol
 
Aren't you Latino by definition?
 
@Ted I tried to do something like that. We can't expect the set {x : f' < t } to be open though. (not that we need it to be, just saying)
 
it depends who you ask :(
but also that doesnt help w race, which is the bigger problem
 
Isn't a limit of continuous functions Borel?
 
11:53 PM
cause im certainly not white (despite some portuguese ancestry), but i also dont qualify as amerindian by most US standards cause no tribal affiliation despite the fact that most of my ancestry is amerindian
so then whadda ya do
 
Is f' = lim_n g_n where g_n are measurable though?
 
Aren't continuous functions measurable?
 
Suppose we have the space of tensor algebra $T(E):=\oplus_{n=1}^{\infty}(\Bbb R^d)^{\otimes n}$, the log series of $a \in T(E)$ is defined as $log a =log(a_0)+\sum_{n \geq 1}\frac{(-1)^n}{n}(\boldsymbol{1}-\frac{a}{a_0})^n$
Omg, I hate this white font while editing.
 
Oh I see. You're taking g_n(x) = n((f(x + 1/n) - f(x))
 
I cant barely see anything.
 
11:56 PM
There you go, @Drew.
 
and because we have to deal with the problem of convergence of such series, one says log(a) is locally finite because it produces only finite many terms for a given degree
And hence we do not need any norms on $T(E)$ to make the series convergent and the log(a) is purely algebraic.
I don't understand why this is enough to see this series as an algebraic object.
 
@EricSilva That's crazy!
 
all this could be avoided if they just programmed an "other" box
 
What would a typical Latino put, Eric?
@quallenjäger: Makes no sense to me. I don't see why things vanish for high enough $n$.
 

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