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12:00 PM
@user1732 so reducing him to a crazy drug addict guy surely will not give you a sufficient picture
 
yeah, we are currently in an opioid epidemic
 
It's interesting how people with a distance of 2 can work in fields that would appear very far from each other
 
more died of overdose last year than the entire vietnam war
 
@user1732 sad enough
 
There's the one story of a bet he had with a friend of his that involved whether he could quit amphetamines for a month. He did, but said something to the effect of that being without them hampered his mathematical creativity
 
12:05 PM
Feynman admitted to experimenting with LSD
 
@Fargle I think that friend was Graham
 
Huh. The more you know
 
There is the story where PE tried to open a box(?) of tomato-juice with a knife (he never did these things himself, even could't cut bread to slices or smear butter on it, it did all his mom, with whom he lived.) So Graham found him in the middle of the night in his kitchen all over with a deep red liquid an a knife in his hand ...
 
Since we're doing random statistics I wonder what's the highest Erdos number amond fields medalists, I found a 6 at most so far
 
12:44 PM
I'm doing a writeup, if someone could help me, that would be great.
as you can guess, I'm not certain what all I need to include in it.
 
12:59 PM
that's no 4D, that' a 2D surface floating in 4D space
12
Q: How to make a 4d plot using Python with matplotlib

ChrisI am looking for a way to create four-dimensional plots (surface plus a color scale) using Python and matplotlib. I am able to generate the surface using the first three variables, but I am not having success adding the color scale for the fourth variable. Here is a small subset of my data belo...

 
1:22 PM
woosh
 
1:49 PM
How is everyone?
 
Mildly to moderately well
 
Are you the ambassador from the Neutral Planet?
 
They didn't tell me my responsibility, they just sent me.
Exile perhaps?
 
Live free... or don't.
 
Yes, yes. The freedom to choose not to be free.
I guess I spoke for everybody. How are you?
 
2:03 PM
Can't complain
 
I have tried to partially order the standard responses to "how are you". That one remains a challenge to my system.
 
Let $\{v_1,\ldots,v_n\}$ be vectors in a vector space. One way to show that they are linearly independent is to show that each $v_i$ cannot be written as a linear combination of the others. If I remember correctly, this algorithm can be slightly reduced. Does it suffice to show that for each $i \in \{1,\ldots,n\}$ the vector $v_i$ cannot be written as a linear combination of the $v_j$ with $j < i$ ?
 
@KarlKronenfeld There are a lot of ways you could partially order them. Length, lexile measure, hostility....
sounds like an xkcd comic
 
lol
I mean, I know [no response/dead/unconscious] < [terrible] < [bad] < [fine] < [good] < [fantastic]
 
You could insert "grading" between "terrible" and "bad"
 
2:13 PM
@abenthy Yeah
 
Do you have an argument in mind why this is true?
Or a reference? Nobody seems to write about this.
 
Subspace generated by v_1 has dimension less than subspace generated by v_1 and v_2, etc. So the dimension of the subspace spanned by $v_1,\dots,v_n$ is at least $n$.
Yeah, I have seen that before in a textbook.
 
@abenthy Sure, it's true and I've seen it. Another more general version for direct sums appears in Isaac's algebra book, for example.
@abenthy Think of it this way: if the whole set is linearly dependent, you can pick the highest indexed basis element appearing in a nontrivial linear combination, and then that's written in terms of basis elements of lesser index.
 
Ah okay, I see.
Thanks guys!
 
Ah, Isaacs' algebra. I can't find it stated as a theorem in the linear algebra textbooks I have access to right now.
 
2:23 PM
Theorem 7.5 in the edition I'm looking at. It's perhaps not easily recognizable as such. books.google.com/…
 
Sam
3:04 PM
Could someone please verify if my derivative of the following function is correct
$y = \frac{1}{\sqrt[3](2x^4)} - \frac{1}{\sqrt[4](2x^3)}$
$y' = \frac{4 * \sqrt[3](x)}{6} - \frac{3 * \sqrt[4](x)}{8}$
 
$y'=\frac{3 x^2}{4 \sqrt[4]{2} \left(x^3\right)^{5/4}}-\frac{2\ 2^{2/3} x^3}{3 \left(x^4\right)^{4/3}}$
 
3:25 PM
Hi all, revival of my yesterday confusion about limits, I think I got it anyway but just for cross checking: $$0\in\lim_{n\to\infty}\bigcup_{m\in\{1,\dots,n\}} \big(\frac{1}{m}\big)$$ with $(a_n)$ being the sequence of $a_n$.
Right or wrong?
 
have you ever taken a topology course
 
Well I heard some isolated lectures and skimmed some books (like about your QM, maybe).
 
What does the union of (1/m) mean?
 
the thing you are thinking about is maybe that given any $\varepsilon > 0$, there is an $n$ such that $|1/n - 0| < \varepsilon$
 
YOu mean $\{\frac{1}{m}\mid m\in 1\ldots n\}$?
 
3:30 PM
@rschwieb I take a sequence as an indexed set. And then look at union.
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum One thing at a time... you're talking about the sequence of reciprocals 1 to n right?
 
@rschwieb yes
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum that makes no sense. the set of finite sequences of $\Bbb R$ isn't a metric space
 
@rschwieb that would be only a set, but I guess for my question it should not matter, shall it?
 
maybe it is
but it's still abuse of $\lim$
 
3:33 PM
A sequence is an indexed set, isn't it?
 
A sequence is a function if I remember correctly
 
An indexed set * is a function * as well
 
Also @LeakyNun I managed to prove that thing yesterday about prime ideals, thanks for the help!
 
@Perturbative ok
@Rudi_Birnbaum I just want you to make sure that you know what $\lim$ means
because I've seen too many people using it imprecisely
 
From the set of indices to "the set".
 
3:36 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum Are you asking if $\lim_{n \to \infty} \frac{1}{n} = 0$?
 
@Perturbative No, about that one I am VERY sure
I ask about a limit in a union operation
 
is a union operation a topological space ?
 
@mercio O..o?
Only a set could possibly be
but not an "operation"
 
what is an "operation" ?
I was asking that because limits are things that people talk about in topological spaces
 
a map from a function to a function
 
3:39 PM
usually, maps goes from a set to a set
 
1
Q: Sufficient Condition for Positivity of Matrix with Operator-valued Entries

user193319Let $\mathcal{H}$ be some Hilbert space, let $B(\mathcal{H})$ denote the bounded linear operators acting on $\mathcal{H}$, and let $M_n(B(\mathcal{H}))$ denote the $n \times n$ matrices with operator-valued entries. Let $A = [a_{ij}]$ be one such matrix. My question is, If $\sum_{i,j=1}^n u_i...

 
that can be identified, I guess, using sets of pairs, can't it
@mercio: I just thought lets take the sequence of sequences (a_n), and make a union.
 
then you get an infinite sequence
?
 
Is that a problem?
The question just was if $0$ is contained
 
no
but that sequence doesn't contain 0
 
3:42 PM
So there is nothing like a "limit" for unions of sequences/sets?
 
you can define a "limit" for unions of sequences set if you want
but you do that by explaining what it is
and not asking other people if 0 is in it
like
idk
 
I implicitely assumed something like that would exist
 
it probably does and it may be called the topological closure
do you want the limit of a sequence to be a sequence ?
 
But that works only for topological spaces I assume?
 
well you are in luck because $\Bbb R^2$ is a topololgical space
or $\Bbb R$
the closure is a thing that takes a subset of a topological space and returns a bigger subset
 
3:46 PM
Well its not luck, I guess
 
cuz if you want a thing that works for any sequence you are in trouble
 
if $1/n$ would not converge because convergence wouldn't make sense I could not have asked.
 
I still feel like you want to turn "the sequence $1/n$ converges to $0$" into something complicated and obscure
 
No I just wanted to think about the "topology" around the point "0" in that set.
 
0 is in none of the sequences you are taking a limit of
 
3:50 PM
Not sure if topology is a good word, so to say the structure or the space, if it is "connected" (compact) or not?
 
compactness has nothing to do with connectedness
 
no but the one in with the "" is my version ... just for communication
 
@LeakyNun Poor $c_{00}$
 
you sohuldn't communicate with words that you throw from your head that only you know what they mean
 
3:52 PM
you can say "the sequence 1/n converges to 0" and I will believe that you know the mathematical definition of that
and I will know what you are talking about
 
Of course I do, for every espilon ..
exists an n ...
 
would you have perhaps other examples of limit of sequences that would show us why simple convergence is not suited to your needs
 
I wanted to look at the set of holes at $x=1/n$ and think about what is going on at 0.
 
see you are again throwing words
what is a hole ?
 
take a needle and pinch it into a paper then you get a hole
Or a doughnut ...
 
3:55 PM
a doughnut ??
are you able to poke infinitely many holes in your paper ?
 
with an infinite number of holes approaching one position..
yes in my Gedankenexperiment its no problem
Then I thought the mathematical model for that might be the sequence $(1/n)_{n\in\Bbb N}$.
And then I thought what would be the most natural way to include the "0". Or say is it already included anyway when considering the whole of $\Bbb N$.
I see now that all elements of the union have to be at last in one set of a union to be in the union.
 
o..o'
yes that is what a union is
 
Is that a definition or does it follow from something?
 
It's an axiom of set theory
but yeah if you talk to a union to a mathematician
it will not magically contain a completely new element
 
What happens if you ignore that axiom?
 
4:06 PM
then you can't talk about unions
 
You're thinking about closures without knowing it or so it looks
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum Sorry to get back to you so late. People have probably helped you already
 
@mercio I mean you also can ask how can I equate $1/n$ with 0 if its never 0 (in doing the $\lim$ I mean)?
 
you can't equate 1/n with 0
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum I think there must be something critical misunderstandings in your notation
 
4:09 PM
@rschwieb np. I am sorry for blocking other questions (in case I do).
@mercio: $lim_{n\to\infty} 1/n = 0 $ right?
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum First of all, I can easily imagine looking at the limit of the sequence $\frac{1}{m}$ and concluding it is $0$. You're sure that isn't the point?
 
yes the limit of the sequence $1/n$ is $0$
 
I think there is a reasonable way to interpret the limit of a union of sets, but it would not be equal to 0
 
@mercio: Is that "equating"
?
 
which is a synonym of saying that the sequence converges to 0
 
4:12 PM
Yes, OK.
 
you don't erquate 1/n with 0 you equate the limit of 1/n with 0
 
Yes, so I don't equate when I write $\lim_{n\to\infty} \bigcup_n ...$
 
you are writing nonsense again
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum when you wrote $(\frac{1}{m})$ were you thinking of $\{\frac{1}{m}\}$?
That would mean a set with one element $\frac{1}{m}$
 
@rschwieb both should be equivalent for my purpose
No I mean the set / indexed set with all $m$ elements
 
4:15 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum The set $\{\frac{1}{m}\mid m\in\mathbb N\setminus \{0\}\}$?
 
I was somehow ignoring the definition of union, as I understand now.
@rschwieb yes
 
I'm not clear why the unon is necessary at all
but anyhow, there are a number of things you can say about that set (let's call it $X$)
just as a set, $\liminf(X)=\limsup(X)=glb(X)=0$.
 
as a subset of $\Bbb R$
 
@mercio Right, important clarification!
 
I know limit inf and sup
@rschwieb I know but thats only a single value
 
4:19 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum Yes, in those cases, it's a single value. You are convinced you are talking about a limit of sets?
 
Well, that would involve a limit in the category of sets then. I'm not very well versed on that.
 
what aobut the limit of the sequence of sets $X,X,X,X,\ldots$ ?
 
what do you think it should be ?
 
4:21 PM
.
wait
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum There's a section here labeled "limits and colimits in the category of sets: stacks.math.columbia.edu/download/categories.pdf
Seems too advanced for you though.
 
@mercio It should be exactly $X,X,X,X,X, ....$
 
but that's a sequence of sets, not a set
 
Its an indexed set
 
(and by set I mean a subset of $\Bbb R$ before you tell me that everything is a set)
 
4:24 PM
Well its an indexed set of sets, I would say
 
and the limit of the sequence of subsets of $\Bbb R$ $(1), (1,1/2),(1,1/2,1/3,...)$ is not an indexed set of sets ?
but instead is $(1,1/2,1/3,\ldots,0)$ ?
 
I don't know about that I just want the UNION.
 
well the union of $X,X,X,X,\ldots$ is $X$
 
(1)\cup(1,1/2) = (1,1/2)
 
it's not $X,X,X,X,\ldots$
 
4:25 PM
Yes! But you wrote the sequence of sequences
 
and the union of $(1),(1,1/2),(1,1/2,1/3),\ldots$ is $(1,1/2,1/3,\ldots,1/n,\ldots)$ and doesn't contain $0$
 
...
@mercio OK
And now I thought there exists SOME limit construction such that it is contained.
 
there is, it's called the topological closure (of the union)
 
(ignoring the definition of union)
And how do you write it?
 
topological closure of the union
the topological closure of $X$ is often written $\overline X$
 
4:28 PM
So there is formula type expression for it?
 
what ?
there is a definition for it
 
The union of the increasing chain you describe is and example of a directed union of sets..
 
So $\overline{(1/n)} = 0,1,1/2,...$?
 
$\overline X$ you mean
where $X = \{ 1/n \mid n \in \Bbb N\}$
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum It looks like you want to use (1/n) for both a one element set and the set of all such reciprocals? You're going to have to pick, I'm afraid.
 
4:32 PM
@rschwieb no $(a_n)$ shall be the whole sequence, the indexed set with $a_n \in A$ for all $n\in I$, with the index set $I$.
Oh wait
in case 0 is not in $A$ it cant be in any kind of union
that I see!
@rschwieb but again for that consideration it should not matter if we look at $(a_n)_{n\in I}$ or at $\{a_m|m\in I\}$.
 
If $A=\{\frac{1}{n}\mid n\in \mathbb N^+\}$, then yes, the closure in $\Bbb R$ does happen to be $A\cup\{0\}$. $A$ is a subset of $\Bbb R$ missing point of closure, $0$.
(No unions necessary to say that.)
 
I see, so its neccessary that $lim_{n\to \infty} a_n$ exists in that $A$?
I mean A must have a structure such that a limes can be defined, I guess?
in order to be able to define a "closure", I mean?
 
$A$ doesn't have the structure: $\Bbb R$ does. Closure is determined by a TOPOLOGY on $\Bbb R$.
Given a topology on $\Bbb R$, every subset of $\Bbb R$ has a closure. It can change if the topology is chosen differently.
 
Is it correct that the set must have the structure of a topological space in order to be able to define a limit? Or is there no connection with a limit construction at all?
 
Yes, a "limit point of a set" and "a point of closure of a set" and "the limit of a sequence" all rely on a given topology.
 
4:41 PM
Could anyone give me some reference/book about homogeneous space of hyperbolic space?
 
I mean to "find" the closure of {1/n|n\in\Bbb N^+} I have to do the $\lim 1/n$, haven't I?
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum Not necessarily. In the case of the ordinary topology on the reals, the limit of that sequence happens to be the only missing point of closure
 
@rschwieb Counterexamples?
 
"The limit of a sequence" and "limit point/closure point" are different things
OK, well think about this
enumerate the rational numbers
there you have a sequence without a limit
but its closure is all of $\Bbb R$.
 
@rschwieb of course, you keep mentioning that although we agree on it
 
4:44 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum Sorry: hard not to repeat yourself when mentioning fundamentals
@Rudi_Birnbaum I can try to think of counterexamples as you request them.
 
@rschwieb np, I just got a bit of a Verfolgungswahn ...
lol
@rschwieb Well if you don't have any at hand its OK.
It is the more important the simpler it is ...
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum What do you mean, I just gave you a counterexample (to show that limits of sequences and closure points are different.)
 
Oh sorry I overread!
one sec.
 
And "limit point" and "point of closure" are very similar. It turns out they are both useful in certain contexts.
 
Well the Dedekindscher-Schnitt is kind of a limit, isn't it?
limit-construction (I hear @mercio "define limit construction ...")
 
4:48 PM
"Dedekind cut"?
 
Yes, but oh no it isnt, pls forget it.
 
There is some connection
but it isn't usually phrased in terms of closure
it does rely upon the order on the real numbers, which defines the ordinary topology (the order topology)
 
The thing is that Dedekind cuts are used to define $\Bbb R$ and it isn't possible to talk about a topology on $\Bbb R$ before you defined it.
 
OK, so is there an alternative way to define $\Bbb R$ by going via topology? And not using Dedekind cut.
 
4:52 PM
No, to define a topology on a set, you first have to have the set.
So put that right out of your mind
 
Anyhow, construction of the reals seems pretty far afield from what you were asking about before.
 
Yeah we were digressing, but my question is answered! Thank you very much!
Maybe to summarize: I have ignored the definition of union and found out that direct "generalization" of a limit for unions does not exist. But there exists a construction called closure for sets of elements of topological spaces and which however also has some common grounds with limit constrcutions. OK?
 
I suppose so. I could muddy the waters by telling you a context where sequences of sets could have limits, but I don't think it would be helpful.
 
pls go on!
 
5:04 PM
If you don't know anything about topology, that would be a very useful topic to pick up.;
 
I have some basic ideas th axioms some examples in mind and so on
SO what would be the context " where sequences of sets could have limits"?
 
Suppose you have a set X you are interested in
then its powerset P(X) (which is the set of all subsets of X) can be given a topology
 
i know
 
sequences of elements of the powerset are precisely sequences of (sub)sets
and if you have a topology on the powerset, then you can define limits of sequences of sets.
(because they are just sequences of points in the powerset)
This looks like a handy start on topology: math.colostate.edu/~renzo/teaching/Topology10/Notes.pdf
the wiki book might be good too, although I haven't read it: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Topology
 
@rschwieb looks great, seems I can understand that! :-) Thank you!
Now the big question for me is how to define the limit with a topology instead of a metric ...
 
5:11 PM
if $x^2 = 4$ then... $x = ±2$ ?
Does this mean that standard deviation could or should be read as ±s?
 
@AaronHall The standard deviation is a positive number... so don't include the hyphen
We frequently talk about $m\pm s$ and $m\pm 2s$ though
as intervals around the mean
 
so since it's an interval... why not ±s?
 
the standard deviation isn't the interval it's that positive quantity that defines how big the interval is.
 
"standard deviation is defined as the positive square root of the variance"
 
right
 
5:18 PM
The word "positive" seems left out of the casually stated definition a lot.
 
Sam
is $y' = -\frac{8 \sqrt[3](x^7)}{3} + \frac{6\sqrt[4](x^7)}{8}$ equivalent to $y' = -\frac{4}{3\sqrt[3](x^7)} + \frac{3}{4\sqrt[4](x^7)}$
 
Well, to be pedantic, the square root function gives you only the positive square root. So if I say "the square root of 9," this means only 3.
 
@AaronHall To be clear, the sq-
Nice @Ted
 
howdy @MikeM. Did you look at my homework assignment? Do I pass? :)
 
hi @ted!
 
5:19 PM
hi Leaky
@Sam: Do you mean to have $y'$ for both of those?
 
@MikeMiller ???
 
@Ted j'vais apprendre francais la derniere annee
niveau trois
 
@Aaron: I think he stopped because I said what he was starting to say. :P
 
Sam
So basically I'm trying differentiate the following function: $y = \frac{1}{\sqrt[3](2x^4)} - \frac{1}{\sqrt[4](2x^3)}$
 
@Leaky: Je ne comprends pas. l'année dernière ou l'année prochaine?
 
5:21 PM
prochaine
 
@TedShifrin Seems like I learnt it differently in grade school...
 
Sam
So i transform to $y = 2x^{-\frac{4}{3}} - 2x^{-\frac{3}{4}}$
Now I'd apply the power rule
 
When you solve $x^2=a^2$, @Aaron, you have to take $x=\pm\sqrt{a^2} = \pm|a|$, but that's different from referring to the square root.
OK, @Sam, except that the $2$'s are under the root signs as well?
 
Sam
Yeah
That must be were I'm going wrong. I must be missing a rule
 
So you need $2^{-1/3}$ and $2^{-1/4}$?
 
Sam
5:24 PM
I'm not sure how you arrived at this?
 
The same way you arrived at $x^{-4/3} = (x^4)^{-1/3}$. :)
Remember that $\sqrt{2x} = \sqrt2\cdot\sqrt x$.
And similarly with other numbers ....
Have you had the chain rule yet, @Sam, or just the power rule?
 
@TedShifrin I have been really busy and am hoping to look at it tonight.
I moved on from Tubes by now.
 
That's ok. I understand, @MikeM. Happy to respond to questions if there are any. Your question is way more straightforward (because of the unique normal direction) than it would be in higher codimension. It was just one paragraph on the second page.
 
I expected as much, yeah.
I'll look tonight, I'm sure. I just want to get a solid few hours of writing in before AoPS today.
 
Keep me posted :)
I don't start AoPS until next Sunday morning.
What are you teaching?
 
5:48 PM
AMC10 today
 
ah cool
 
Yesterday was intermediate algebra
 
@rschwieb Sorry just one more question to be sure I git that about the union: Is $\bigcup_{n\in\Bbb N^+} (1-\frac{1}{n},1-\frac{1}{n+1}] = (0,1)$ correct? with $(a,b]$ the half open interval from without $a$ to including $b$.
 
yes
 
fine, then I got it! thx ln!
 
Sam
5:52 PM
@TedShifrin I'm familiar with the chain rule although the exercise says not to use it. It's here math-exercises.com/limits-derivatives-integrals/… (section 1 sub question i)
 
well, ok, then you have to do the algebra as I said
 
Sam
OK let me try :)
Thanks for helping btw
 
sure
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum That looks right. The first thing gets you (0, 1/2], and then the right endpoint continues to trend upward to 1, but it never gets to 1
 
Sam
so its going to be $\sqrt(2); \sqrt(x^4)$ right
 
5:54 PM
You're essentially covering (0,1) with half-intervals
 
not your original question, sam ... cube root and in denominator.
 
@rschwieb Yeah somehow here I can easily understand why $1$ is not contained, while it still feels weakly odd that its not in $(1/n)_{n\in\Bbb N^+}$. But I see now the necessity for this very definition of union.
for intervals it makes more sense somehow (in my eyes)..
the example shows that the arbitrary union of closed sets doesn't have to be closed.
 

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