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12:05 AM
Dear all,Please re-open this question which is put on hold:

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2887114/understanding-de-suspension-sigma-1-sigmax-neq-x

It was said that "unclear what you're asking" and people do not know the def of de-suspension.

However, the suspension is introduced earlier in the cited question:

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2884901/the-suspension-topology-and-elementary-examples

While the desuspension is also quoted/linked to the Wikipedia (withe refs given by Wiki). I also include a new note: "The desuspension is arguably firstly introduced in the
 
 
1 hour later…
1:11 AM
@TedShifrin The heart: life's essential singularity.
 
Please re-open this question which is put on hold:

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2887114/understanding-de-suspension-sigma-1-sigmax-neq-x



Follow people's comments, I modify to also ask the basic definitions:


> Question: How do we define desuspension exactly? (Please see the comments below, people complain about the meanings of desuspension in Wikipedia is useless).

> Are we able to have the desuspension acting on the topological space as the suspension does? Or do we only have the desuspension act on the spectra but not the space?
 
2:09 AM
Heya @Fargle. Haven't seen you in ages!
 
Hey everyone!
Hey @TedShifrin :)
 
Hi @Perturb
 
@ted
 
hi geocalc
 
2:25 AM
Can I say that, $x^s+\phi^s=1$ intersecting with $\phi=x$, is equivalent to s=ln(1/2)/lnx?
I solved for s
 
So you're taking $2x^s = 1$, which is $s\ln x = \ln(1/2)$. Right.
 
yeah
okay thank you
is it known whether s is rational or not
 
Who's $x$?
 
$x$ is a rational number in the unit interval $(0,1)$
 
What if $x=1/2$? What if $x=1/3$?
 
2:35 AM
then you get an irrational number divided by an irrational number
 
Yes, but in the first case ... and in the second case ...
 
yeah
 
Did you work it out?
 
for all rational x between (0,1), ln(x) is irrational. But I don't know what the division of two irrational numbers is equal to
it could be either rational or irrational
 
Well, try my specific examples?
 
2:40 AM
if $x=1/2$ then you'd have $ln(1/2)/ln(1/2)$ which is indeed rational
 
right.
And you should be able to prove that $(\ln 2)/(\ln 3)$ (or its reciprocal) is irrational.
You can get back to me on that one. I'm leaving for now.
 
It can be either way, note that if $x\in(0,1)$ you can say $x=1/y$ and get $\ln(1/2)/\ln(1/y)=\ln(2)/\ln(y)$
 
okay thanks
 
where can i discuss about linear algebra
 
Not particularly helpful, @Holo, but ok.
 
2:43 AM
@holo wouldn't it be negative ln(2)
 
The two negatives cancelled.
 
oh
 
@TedShifrin I think it is more convenient
 
shrug
 
how to find eigen values of block matrices
 
2:44 AM
Unless there's a big 0 in one of the blocks, they're no different from other matrices, @Learnmore.
 
@Holo can i prove that $s$ is rational infinitely often for $s=ln(1/2)/ln(x)$, $x\in \Bbb Q$
 
Sure, @geocalc.
And irrational uncountably many times, I bet.
Hmm, that last statement may not be so easy.
Certainly irrational countably many times, too.
 
okay, cause I was just wondering why wolfram alpha said it was unknown whether ln(1/2)/ln(.4) is rational or irrational
 
@geocalc33 take the set $\{x=1/2^n\mid n\in \Bbb N\}$
 
I know that's just one case
 
2:49 AM
Why don't you work out the other exercise I gave you instead of ignoring it?
 
even if they have a pattern ,is there any way to work it out
 
I already proved it
 
Oh, how?
 
For countably irrationals take the same but $1/3^n$, and I don't know about uncountably, it seems correct from intuition
 
What kind of block matrix, specifically, @Learnmore?
Yeah, @Holo, I am not so sure.
@geocalc: Telling me that Wolfram Alpha told you will only get you smacked!
 
2:52 AM
lmao
 
hush, @Perturb
 
proof: $s$ is rational infinitely often
 
@TedShifrin,it is a symmetric matrix with $\begin{bmatrix} A & B\\C & D\end{bmatrix}$ where $A$ is a diagonal matrix and $B,C$ are all one matrix
 
Okay so I'm trying to parse what Hatcher said in his AT book about products of CW Complexes. So if $X$ and $Y$ are CW-Complexes with cell-decompositions $\varepsilon_X$ and $\varepsilon_Y$ respectively then $X \times Y$ has a cell decomposition $$\varepsilon_X \times \varepsilon_Y = \{e_{\alpha} \times e_{\beta} \ | \ e_{\alpha} \in \varepsilon_X \text{ and } e_{\beta} \in \varepsilon_Y\}$$ is that correct?
 
Actually, it is impossible that $s$ will be anything uncountable many times... I'm stupid, sorry @TedShifrin
 
3:00 AM
@TedShifrin Heya. I've been pretty busy with real life stuff lately, haven't had too much free time.
 
[Random]
$\pi e$ is irrational
Proof:
 
Great proof
I can't find a single flaw in it
 
Suppose $\pi e = \frac{\pi}{1/e} =\frac{p}{q}$. Then:
$e^{q\pi}=e^{p/e}$
 
@TedShifrin Proof by contradiction that $s$ is rational infinitely often:

Assume $s=\frac{ln(1/2)}{lnx} \notin \Bbb Q$.

For a given $n$, select the $n$ curves in the family
$x^s+\phi^s=1$;
$x,\phi \in \Bbb Q (0,1), s\notin \Bbb Q,$
where the $k$-th curve passes through $\left(\frac k{n+1}, \frac k{n+1}\right)$.

If $s$ is not rational, then that would mean as $n$ tends to infinity, there would be no rational solutions of $x^s+\phi^s=1$ intersecting with $\phi=x$.

This is equivalent to saying $s=\frac{ln(1/2)}{lnx}$ is never rational.
 
now consider the lines $y=x\pi$ and $y=\frac{x}{e}$. It is easy to see that for $x > 0$, since $\pi > \frac{1}{e}$, then for any $x$, $x\pi > \frac{x}{e}$. In addition, since both lines are continuous, surjective and monotone, it follows that for any $y$ there exists unique pairs $(p,q)$ such that the above equality is true for all real $(p,q)$. Therefore, $\pi e$ is rational, wait... what??
ah wait, I have no way to guarantee there exists (p,q) both integers
 
3:36 AM
There exists no integer multiple $n$ of $\pi$ that is equal to $e$ though because $n\pi \geq \pi > e$
 
3:48 AM
Actually for $q\pi = p/e$, perhaps we can do a nested proof by induction by fixing $p$ each time, then show that no such $q$ exists in order to show that $\pi e$ is irrational?
 
 
1 hour later…
4:56 AM
There's this algebra theorem that I'm stuck on
 
(boolean algebra) Our sir said that we can represent A->B as A=>B only when A->B is a tautology (A, B are boolean expressions)
What is this concept called? I can't find it in my book or on the internet
 
Theorem: Let $A$ be a ring and let $\mathfrak{a}$ be an ideal of $A$. Consider the map $\phi : A \to A/\mathfrak{a}$ defined by $\phi(a)=x+\mathfrak{a}$. There is a one-to-one order-preserving correspondence between the ideals $\mathfrak{b}$ of $A$ which contain $\mathfrak{a}$ and the ideals $\overline{\mathfrak{b}}$ of $A/\mathfrak{a}$ given by $b = \phi^{-1}(\overline{\mathfrak{b}})$
What exactly is this one-to-one, order-preserving correspondence?
 
@Perturbative the correspondence is $\mathfrak b = \varphi^{-1}(\overline{\mathfrak b})$
 
Is there any nicer (function notation sort of way) to express that correspondence?
Like can I define a map from the set of ideals in $A$ containing $\mathfrak{a}$ to the set of ideals $\overline{\mathfrak{b}}$ of $A/\mathfrak{a}$ that is precisely this one-to-one correspondence?
 
5:39 AM
@Perturbative Notice that $\phi(\mathfrak{b})$ is an ideal in $A/\mathfrak{a}$, as it is clearly a subgroup, and $\overline{a}\cdot \phi(b) = \phi(ab) \in \phi(\mathfrak{b})$ for any $b \in \mathfrak{b}$, $a \in A$. That's exactly the correspondence, I believe.
So I guess you could write $\phi^* : \{\mathfrak{b} : \mathfrak{b}\textrm{ is an ideal of }A\textrm{ which contains }\mathfrak{a}\} \to \{\textrm{ideals of }A/\mathfrak{a}\}$ where $\phi^*(\mathfrak{b}) = \phi(\mathfrak{b})$, but that seems weird.
One day I'll learn how to edit
 
@Perturbative if $\varphi : X \to Y$ is a function then $\varphi^{-1} : P(Y) \to P(X)$ is a function, so I don't know what you mean
 
This is definitely well-defined, et cetera. The only things left to check are that the inverse image, thought of as a function going the opposite way as $\phi^*$ above, is also well-defined, and that $\phi^{-1}(\phi(\mathfrak{b})) \supset \mathfrak{b}$ (where here I mean image and inverse image)
 
Okay thanks @Fargle, let me just read through what you said
 
Leaky is also right, inverse image of any set function defines a function in reverse between the power sets. That's probably why the book uses inverse image to denote the correspondence, but it's luckily precisely the content of the theorem that you could construct the correspondence either way. >_>
 
5:57 AM
Yeah Leaky's right, just felt kinda jarring to me to see a function defined like that
 
@Perturbative let's look at an example
consider $\Bbb Z$ and the ideal $12\Bbb Z$
then we're looking at the rings $\Bbb Z$ and $\Bbb Z/12\Bbb Z$
@Perturbative ideals in $\Bbb Z$ containing $12\Bbb Z$ are $\Bbb Z$, $2\Bbb Z$, $3\Bbb Z$, $4\Bbb Z$, $6\Bbb Z$
 
@LeakyNun That examples not finished, though am I right? So for example we know that $12\mathbb{Z} \subseteq 6\mathbb{Z}$ and $6\mathbb{Z}$ is also an ideal, and it's image in $\mathbb{Z}/12\mathbb{Z}$ is $\phi[6\mathbb{Z}] = \{\dots , -6 + 12\mathbb{Z}, 0+ 12\mathbb{Z}, 6 + 12\mathbb{Z} , \dots\}$
 
$\varphi[6\Bbb Z] = \{0 + 12\Bbb Z, 6 + 12\Bbb Z\}$
 
Ohh yeah you're right
Okay so now we know that $12\mathbb{Z} \subseteq 6\mathbb{Z} \subseteq 3\mathbb{Z}$ and we have $6\mathbb{Z}$ in correspondence with $\phi[6\mathbb{Z}]$ and similarly for $3\mathbb{Z}$
 
6:14 AM
right
 
But what about the inclusions $12\mathbb{Z} \subseteq 4\mathbb{Z} \subseteq 2\mathbb{Z}$, again we get the correspondences when we take their images in the quotient, but for example $3\mathbb{Z} \not\subseteq 2\mathbb{Z}$ so in what sense is the 'order'- preserved in that case?
I'm assuming order-preserving means preserving set-theoretic inclusion
 
order-preserving means if X < Y then f(X) < f(Y)
in this case, the ideals of a ring form a complete lattice
and in particular they form a partial order
so this is a homomorphism of partially ordered sets
 
The notation X < Y is usually used to say that X is a subgroup of Y, is that what you mean?
 
I mean any order in general
subgroup is an order, subideal is an order, subring is an order
 
Okay okay I get what you're saying
 
6:22 AM
i need to go now, maybe @TobiasKildetoft can explain more
 
Okay no problem, thanks for all the help! @LeakyNun
 
 
1 hour later…
7:24 AM
Any idea about this anyone?
2 hours ago, by Gaurang Tandon
(boolean algebra) Our sir said that we can represent A->B as A=>B only when A->B is a tautology (A, B are boolean expressions)
 
@GaurangTandon Are you doing a course on formal mathematical logic?
 
7:38 AM
*Theorem: If $f : A \to B$ is a ring homomorphism and $\mathfrak{q}$ is a prime ideal in $B$ then $f^{-1}(\mathfrak{q})$ is a prime ideal in $A$." The sketch of the proof is the that $A/f^{-1}(\mathfrak{q}) \cong B/\mathfrak{q}$ and hence has no zero-divisor, but I see immediately how $A/f^{-1}(\mathfrak{q}) \cong B/\mathfrak{q}$
 
@Perturbative Do you mean that you don't immediately see it?
 
Yeah sorry, I don't immediately see it
 
Right, it is also not true. You need the homomorphism to be surjective
 
Ohh sorry the sketch said that $A/f^{-1}(q)$ is isomorphic to a subring of $B/q$
 
right
you restrict to the image of $f$ and then use the correspondence theorem
 
7:48 AM
@Perturbative I would just prove it directly
 
@LeakyNun I wanted to do that, but I want to understand the sketch proof given
 
so firstly you want to factorize your homomorphism into a surjective and an injective map
this is called epi-mono factorization in category theory, and in other context it's called the first isomorphism theorem
 
Okay cool I follow you so far
 
basically $f : A \to B$ becomes $f_1 : A \to A/\ker f$ and $f_2 : f(A) \to B$
and $f_2 \circ f_1 = f$
and the situation at $f_1$ is understood
@Perturbative right
the correspondence is quite powerful
it doesn't only preserve ordering
 
And $f_2 \circ f_1 = f$ follows from $A/\operatorname{ker} f \cong f[A]$
 
7:54 AM
but also prime ideals and maximal ideals
right
@Perturbative shuold I explain the situation at $f_1$?
 
@LeakyNun Just give me a few minutes to think about it, I'll let you know if I'm still stuck, thanks :)
 
@LeakyNun The correspondence only preserves maximal ideals going forward when the map is surjective.
 
@TobiasKildetoft I'm referring to the ideal correspondence theorem for quotient rings
 
@LeakyNun Ahh, ok
 
which is kinda equivalent to a surjective map
 
8:05 AM
@LeakyNun Just to check if I'm on the right track, are we going to use this result?$$\frac{A/ker(f)}{f^{-1}(q)/ker(f)} \cong A/f^{-1}(q)$$
 
sure
 
Weird quasiperiodicity between integer multiples of $\pi$ and $e$
 
@LeakyNun Okay I'm stuck, I'm not sure how to proceed
 
If you zoom close enough, the pattern actually is not repeating, but the large scale behaviour is (the bunchings)
Leaky, do you aware of such properties of irrationals before?
 
@Perturbative I thought you already proved it?
@Secret what is that?
 
8:09 AM
Plots of $x=n\pi$ and $x=ne$ for $n \in \Bbb{N}$
note the regular bunching patterns despite not periodic
for details
 
@LeakyNun I understood what you said earlier, but I wasn't able to prove it from that
 
@Perturbative I guess another key ingredient is that $\mathfrak p$ is prime iff $A/\mathfrak p$ is an integral domain
 
Okay that should help quite a bit
 
@Secret I think it's because $6\pi = 18.850 \approx 7e = 19.028$
 
8:36 AM
hmm...
Actually, even the large scale behaviour is not quite repeating, as shown by how the bunchings have uncontrolled drifts
Why does it looks periodic to our eyes...
 
 
2 hours later…
10:50 AM
@Secret periodic function must be at the base of generating this, drifts must either have pattern or be random seeded with a finite selection.
 
Well, Acuriousmind said most of the periodic phenomenon is largely contributed by the 2 d.p truncations of $\pi,e$
There also seemed to be another much larger one: (too large to screen cap)
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/0suntwa7ya
presumably had a quasi period of 1000 integers, this documents the slow drift of $\pi,e$ relative to $22/7,19/7$ such that they become anti phase and nearly in phase again
 
11:19 AM
@TobiasKildetoft yes, I am currently taking a Discrete Mathematics course in undergraduate
 
@GaurangTandon That is not the same thing. Unless you are learning really formal logic, I don't see any reason to have two different implication symbols
 
<nod> what the prof told us wasn't even in our textbook
i guess i'll move along
thanks :)
 
can i ask one thing.?
I wanted to devote my life to mathematics but my family is financially backward even we can't able to afford money for books and school fees. I already did a brief research on Prime numbers and partition but still no one helping me.
 
11:44 AM
@AdarshKumar There might be some online universities you can do, but @TobiasKildetoft is the only one that is academic here at this current period of the chat. He might have better ideas on how get mathematics education while taking account of the financial problem
 
@TedShifrin $$x_n=\sqrt{\frac{1}{n}}$ and $M_n=f_n(x_n)=\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{\frac{1}{n}}$$
 
@Secret is @TobiasKildetoft is online?
 
@AdarshKumar I am
 
@TobiasKildetoft Sir please help me.
 
@AdarshKumar I am not really sure what you are looking for
 
11:50 AM
He came from a low income family, thus education can be a challenge, I am not sure if there is something better than random online universities
 
That depends on what the goal is
 
@TedShifrin How do we now decide the interval for uniform convergence?
 
i just have one goal. if my research is useful for the world then i think it publish and my parents will be happy forever, nothing else.
 
@AdarshKumar The thing is that until you have been studying math in a more structured way for quite a while, there is basically no way to produce publishable research.
And getting to that point is for most people not a good choice financially
 
@TobiasKildetoft thanks for your advice sir.
 
11:59 AM
I don’t think one should live for one’s parents
 
yet, some parents do live for their children
 
btw leaky, I am trying to prove this result: That there are no integers $n$ such that $\pi e = n$. Graphically, the proof is easy because as you see here, none of the yellow lines (integer multiples of $\frac{1}{e}$) intersect the black line ($\pi$). Algebraically, I only managed to establish one direction, and I am not sure if there exists a systematic way to find the other direction:
Incomplete proof:
We knew $3 < \pi < 4$ and we seek for some $n$ such that $\frac{n}{e} = \pi$, thus our required $n$ need to satisfy $3 < \frac{n}{e} < 4$
Now, $2<e<3$ hence $ \frac{1}{3} < \frac{1}{e} < \frac{1}{2}$
 
12:18 PM
@Secret What do you mean by one direction? You are not trying to prove an equivalence
 
I think I made a typo, because somehow I got $m\pi = e$ and $\pi e = n$ mixed up in my head for integers $m,n$. I think my correct question is trying to establish there exists a bound such that $\pi$ is bounded by consecutive $\frac{n}{e}$ thus proving that they cannot be equal
Tobias: but I am not sure how to do that systematically ( I know the thing I want to proof is true graphically because as shown in the plot, the axis spacing of 0.2 result in all the $\frac{n}{e}$ to be separated from $\pi$ thus showing $\pi e$ is not an integer, but I am not sure whether this spacing 0.2 can be found more rigorously)
 
@Secret I am not really sure what all of this is supposed to be. I mean, to show that $\pi e$ is not an integer, you can just check which integer it would have to be and then approximate each number sufficiently to rule that out.
(stating it as the existence of an integer seem downright silly)
 
Well for $\pi e$ it might be easy to find such integer and then do the approximation to rule it out, but I am thinking about any irrationals $rs$ and $r,s$ may be either very large or very small making it hard to guess the integer to carry out the approximation process, and you might need to compute more than 100 decimal places before it will be ruled out. So I am wondering if something more foolproof such as triggering a contradiction
 
@Secret Well, it will not always work, depending on the specific irrationals.
 
12:35 PM
Meanwhile, the graph is suggesting for $\pi, \frac{1}{e}$ there exists some largest partition of an interval (in this case partition [n,n+1] into 5 parts so that you get 0.2 spacing) such that every $\frac{n}{e}$ and $\pi$ lies in disjointed intervals for some [0.2 m, 0.2 (m+1)] thus showing nonexistence (because in this case, $\pi$ get sandwiched between consecutive multiples of $\frac{1}{e}$)
So if there is a systematic way to find the largest partition such that a target irrational is sandwiched between consecutive multiples of another irrational, then nonexistence is guarenteed
Meanwhile for cases like $\frac{1}{\pi}*\pi = n$, the above method seemed to not work because you get $\frac{1}{\pi} = \frac{n}{\pi}$ which computes easily via algebraic manipulations
 
12:50 PM
@TobiasKildetoft is a field extension always separable over the maximally inseparable subextension?
 
Hmm, no idea
 
@LeakyNun perhaps this is what you're looking for? stacks.math.columbia.edu/tag/030K
 
@SohamChowdhury yes, thanks
 
@LeakyNun, I learned that subset of separable metric space is separable, hence Cantor set in $\mathbb R$ is closure of a countable set. Do we know some such countable subset?
 
quick question: does the error from polynomial interpolation apply to all functions ( exponential trigonometric etc) or just polynomial functions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_interpolation#Interpolation_error
 
12:59 PM
@Silent countable subset of what?
 
@LeakyNun of reals, so that its closure in reals gives Cantor set
 
intersect it with the rationals
 
oh! wow thanks.
 
@Silent do you know why?
@SohamChowdhury aha no that's reverse
 
@Leaky is it?
 
1:10 PM
that's the separable subextension
i'm talking about the inseparable subextension
 
oh, i see
 
1:23 PM
@LeakyNun I did this: $\overline{C\cap \mathbb Q}\subset \overline C=C$. Conversely, suppose $x\in C$, and $x\notin \overline{C\cap\mathbb Q}$, then $x$ is not limit point of $C\cap \mathbb Q$. But since $C$ is a perfect set, for every $\varepsilon>0$, $0<d(x,y)<\varepsilon$ for some $y\in C$, where $y$ has to be irrational. How to proceed?
 
it doesn't work with every set
you need the fact that it is the cantor set
 
@LeakyNun You mean, let $X\subset \mathbb R$ where $X$ closed. It is possible that closure of $X\cap \mathbb Q$ may not be $X$. Right?
 
yes
 
Actually $X\cap\Bbb Q$ might even be empty
 
oh yes!
What is an example of such perfect set $X$?
 
1:28 PM
google
 
ok
 
A properly chosen translation of the Cantor set works
 
oh! i think you both mean a nonempty perfect set with no rational number!
 
can someone take a look at my question above, or are "off topic" questions discouraged here ?
 
@LeakyNun Can I use some argument like 'every neighborhood of $x\in C$ contains a rational of the form $\frac{3k+1}{3^m}$ or $\frac{3k+2}{3^m}$?'
 
1:36 PM
All functions, for polynomials the error is zero
 
@AlessandroCodenotti, thank you for confirming my suspicions
 
1:48 PM
@LeakyNun, thanks for pointing out that $X\cap \mathbb Q$ should not be taken as general process. Thanks @AlessandroCodenotti.
 
@Silent how would you describe the elements in the cantor set in terms of the base three expansion?
 
@LeakyNun elements with 0 and 2 only, and they do not contain 1 in their expansion.
 
so any finite truncation produces an element of the cantor set
i.e. if 0.a0a1a2a3a4a5... is in the cantor set
then 0.a0 is in the cantor set
also 0.a0a1
also 0.a0a1a2
etc
can you go on?
 
I can't understand the reason for this
Here a is arbitrary number, or a fixed one?
 
$0.a_0 a_1 a_2 a_3 a_4 a_5 \cdots$
 
1:59 PM
@LeakyNun is this in base 3 form? then i get it! thank you.
 
ok
 
[cont.]
Proof:
Given $2 < e < 3$ and $3 < \pi < 4$, we want to seek for integer $n$ such that $\frac{n}{e} < \pi < \frac{n+1}{e}$
We knew that $(\frac{n}{e} <> 3) < \pi \equiv \frac{n}{e} < 3 < \pi \lor 3 < \frac{n}{e} < \pi$ and $\pi < (\frac{n+1}{e} <> 4)$
Solving the inequality in the bracket, we get: $n <> 3e$ and $n+1 <> 4e$
Now: $6 < 3e < 9$ and $8 < 4e < 12$. This suggests $n=7,8$ and $n+1 = 9,10,11 \implies n = 8,9,10$
Combining these, we get $n=8$
Therefore $\frac{8}{e} < \pi < \frac{9}{e}$, hence proving that there is no integer multiple of $\frac{1}{e}$ that can give $\pi$ and therefore $\pi e$ is not an integer
 
2:22 PM
o..o
 
Now to try something more adventurous...
$r \pi = n$
$9 < r < 10, 3 < \pi < 4$
$(\frac{n}{\pi} <> 9) < r < (\frac{n+1}{\pi} <> 10)$
$n <> 9\pi, n+1 <> 10\pi$
$27 < 9\pi < 36, 30 < 10\pi < 40$
$n=28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35\land n+1=31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39$
$\therefore n=30,31,32,33,34,35$
hmm...
While yes it can pin down any irrational in [9,10] and show which multiple of $\frac{1}{\pi}$ will sandwich it between showing that $r \pi$ is never an integer, can we guarentee existence somehow, hmm...
What about...
$\pi \frac{1}{\pi} = n$
$3 < \pi < 4, \frac{1}{4} < \frac{1}{\pi} < \frac{1}{3}$
$(\frac{n}{\pi} <> 3) < \pi < (\frac{n+1}{\pi} <> 4)$
$n = 3 \pi, n+1 = 4\pi$
$9 < 3\pi < 12, 12 < 4 \pi < 16$
$n = 10,11, n=12,13,14$
No solution
 
2:50 PM
Can someone please help me solving this question.
Please.
 
square, rearrange, then square again and then compare terms, no other simpler method
 
I tried but went too complex..
Can you solve and send the answer pls..
Pls sir..
@Secret
 
o..o
tilts his head 90°
 
@mercio can you also send me the solution if possible pls...
 
does your life depend on it ?
 
2:55 PM
Yes. Something like that..
 
[correct] ah... the above workings is to prove $\pi^2$ is not an integer, not $\frac{1}{\pi} \pi$. So after correction, and skipping some steps we have:
 
I don't even see a question
 
This one. @mercio
 
i see an equation with f(x) written under it
then "evaluate the value of (x)"
and then 3 things that i don't know what they are talking about
 
What are you trying to say ??
 
2:59 PM
I'm trying to say that it is very unclear what you are asking
 
$9 < \pi^2 < 16$
$27 < 9\pi < 36, 48 < 16\pi < 64$
Still no solution
Experimentally, $9 < \pi^2 < 10$, so that means if the bounds are picked wrongly, the overlapping region can be missed. This means we actually have to test all integers between 27 and 64, unless we start with some tighter bound
Experimentally, the required n is 31
ok... now to do the $\pi \frac{1}{\pi}$ case properly...
$\pi \frac{1}{\pi} = n$ translates to $\pi = n \pi$. While this is trivial to solve, we are going to run through this algorithm to see if it can successfully recover $n=1$
 
given two functions f(x) and g(x) .

Find the value of range of ' x ' such that
Min f(x) = min g (x)
@mercio this is my question.
 
what does min f(x) mean
 
minimum value of f(x)
 
it probably means the minimum value of f(x)
snipped
 
3:03 PM
you mean it is f(x) ?
since when do functions have several values ?
 
$(n\pi <> 3) < \pi < ((n+1)\pi <> 4)$
$n <> \frac{3}{\pi}, n+1 <> \frac{4}{\pi}$
$\frac{3}{4} < \frac{3}{\pi}< 1, 1 < \frac{4}{\pi}< \frac{4}{3}$
No solution
@mercio probably it means, pick the x such that f(x) is minimised
judging from the level of that question
 
but then the 3 cases make no sense
and it wouldn't be called "evaluate the x"
 
hmm... in that case I am not very sure... these two functions don't seemed to be the kind that can envelope each other
@Identicon can you clarify how min f(x) is defined in your question?
 
I will check the question once again..
 
(Unrelated) ok, so if the bound is too loose, superfluous solutions can occur and has to be ruled out numerically. also we need to extend this to $\geq$ to capture the cases where irrationals combine with their reciprocals to give integers. This means, this method really only works if the two irrationals are not rational reciprocals of each other
Well that's enough proof of concept, now to try out the main thing. Will continue in Rambles
 
3:30 PM
@Oskar: So you got $M_n =\frac 1{2\sqrt n}$. Now how does that play with the $\epsilon$-$N$ definition of uniform convergence?
 
ok, this method does not work on (dis)proving $\pi e = \frac{p}{q}$. This is because using the above algorithm we are trying to trigger a contradiction in this equation $q\pi e = p$. Using the above algorithm, $3 < \pi < 4$, and the tighter experimental bound of $8 < \pi e < 9$, this give us that the $n$ that will make $q\pi$ to be sandwiched between $\frac{n}{e}, \frac{n+1}{e}$ to be the set of all integers in $\{8q, \cdots, 9q\}$ which
as you can see, as $q$ increases without bound, the above size of the set also increases without bound. This means that to ensure the set is small enough to find such $p$, we actually need to have indefinitely tight bounds of both $\pi e$ and $\pi$ which is uncomputable in princple
Thus, unless there really exist some algorithm that I don't know about that bypasses this by somehow creating a supertask, the question on whether $\pi e$ is irrational is likely an uncomputable problem
typo: replace all instance of the variable $n$ with $p$
To be explored later: Solving $\pi e = \frac{p}{q}$ will require determining whether given the set $\{q\pi\}, q \in \Bbb{Z}$ the set $I$ of intervals $[\frac{n}{e},\frac{n+1}{e}], n \in \Bbb{Z}$ has limit points $\{q\pi\}$ such that $\{q\pi\} \subset I$
I don't remember the name for limit points that is contained in a subset is called
 
I don't think you should spend too much time on notably unsolved problems
 
well... I don't really try to solve such problems all day long. The urge to work on such problems again is mostly triggered by number theory questions asked in the past few days.
though really the main reason why it seems like an illness that I keep revisiting is because for some reason, I am really disturbed by $e^e$
 
3:45 PM
While solving for the nth term of fibonacci series, is it OK to write F_n=r^n, F_{n-1}=r^{n-1}.....
 
What you did is perfect, only thing left to do is solve the system of equations for $a,b$ @blue_eyed_...
 
So whenever there is something that reminds me of $e^e$, I tend to end up revisit this problem with whatever methods learnt from those conversations
 
I don't even understand this question.
Someone please explain
 
@Holo, I was wondering how we could write F_n=r^n, F_{n-1}=r^{n-1}
 
From this revisit, one thing is clear: Solving these irrationality problems will require a way to tame that infinite step determination process used to evaluate the solution. This means should for some reason something in the future trigger me to try this problem again, the focus will be shifted towards finding some kind of projection operator to map an infinite process into a finite step process
 
3:49 PM
@blue_eyed_... There is a short and a long answers, I'll give the shortest because I'm on the phone so I can't type well and it is inconvenient: it works
 
@Holo, ok...
 
is anyone know here, how Ramanujan's Mock theta function work in string theory.
 
Sorry but I would write more if I was on computer... I'm sure there are sources on the internet, if you don't find I advice to either ask another time or ask on math.SE @blue_eyed_...
 
Aug 12 at 16:22, by Fawad
@ted dy I need you!! How to find $11^{13}+13^{11}$ is divisible by...?
 
@Holo are you telling me?
 
3:52 PM
@holo, when would you be on the computer?
 
This is the message that send me all the way back to $e^e$ btw
 
@blue_eyed_... No idea, I'm not at my house rn, so probably few hours
 
4:22 PM
@blue_eyed_... Well, we can't actually write the sequence like that. But close to it.
 
Hi all!
Managed to again confuse myself: Imagine we have a sheet of paper in the $x,y$ plane with holes at $x=1-\frac{1}{n}$ for $n\in\Bbb \to\infty$ is there an "isolated" hole at $x=1$?
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum There is no hole at $x=1$ at all.
 
1/n is never 0, it getting close but never is
 
Hm yeah, somehow my intuition about limits got screwed .. Its just for every $\varepsilon>0$ you will find one between $1$ and $1-\varepsilon$, right?
 
You will find one between 1 and 1-epsilon
 
I see now and recall one should somehow better think about a sequence of sheets...
I still can't help imaging that something with a topology like this "last sheet" could exist...
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum Sure, take the intersection of all of the pieces with a finite number of holes
 
@TobiasKildetoft I think I don't get it :(
I mean the last sheet should really have a hole at $1$.
 
o..o
 
No, it just has holes arbitrarily close to $1$
 
4:41 PM
I mean that means, what I suppose to be the "last sheet" does not exist, no?
 
To me, the last sheet is the one with an infinite number of holes (but still not one at $1$)
 
What do you mean by last sheet? there is no last hole
 
what do you mean by sheets and holes
 
In some sense, if you also want a hole at $1$, you get the 1-point compactification
 
@mercio: "Managed to again confuse myself: Imagine we have a sheet of paper in the x,y plane with holes at x=1−(1/n) for n(∈N)→∞ is there an "isolated" hole at x=1?" @TobiasKildetoft: Sounds good, whats that?
 
4:44 PM
what's the y coordinate of the holes
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum It is a way to turn a non-compact space into a compact one by adding a single point
 
why would there be a hole at 1 if you didn't say there was a hole at 1
unless "hole" has some kind of special meaning for you
 
4 hours ago, by Leaky Nun
@TobiasKildetoft is a field extension always separable over the maximally inseparable subextension?
 
@TobiasKildetoft Is that hole "isolated"?
 
4:45 PM
@Rudi_Birnbaum @mercio
 
Though note that once you add the hole at $1$, it is precisely not isolated (whereas all the other holes are)
 
hi leaky nun
 
hi ln
 
hi
 
@TobiasKildetoft great, that was what I was wondering about :-)!
a a side note: you (all probably) know when you want a function with such "holes" the simplest is to include terms like $\frac{1}{1-\frac{1}{n}}$ and that starts looking like terms in Euler products. @mercio I think it was the limit which had a special meaning here for me.
 
4:52 PM
constant functions ?
 
O..o
@TobiasKildetoft This one point in the 1-point compactification is it topologically equivalent to a point in a continuous set?
 
I am getting more and more confused by every word I see in chat
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum Not sure what you mean. "continuous" is not a word that applies to sets
 
and sometimes it's real confusion and not just pretending i only understand perfectly well defined maths
 
understand compact for continuous.
 
4:56 PM
compact is for spaces and continuous is for functions
 
OK: this one point in the 1-point compactification is it topologically equivalent to a point in a compact set?
 
the one point compactification is a procedure that takes a topological space and returns a compact topological space
 
Oh I see!
 
@Rudi_Birnbaum For example, the $1$-point compactification of the open interval $(0,1)$ is the unit circle, where you add a point and close up the ends using that point.
 

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