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user84215
12:04 PM
How is it possible to assign coordinate to the points of a projective space by charts?
 
user84215
To do that I think we should represent the projective space as a union of affine structures. Right?
 
12:28 PM
The answer here talks about the standard charts for P^n: math.stackexchange.com/a/1308111/137524
@Secret Can't really talk about size of ions without discussing quantum numbers in some fashion, yeah (go go Pauli exclusion principle)
 
sup Semi
professor still hasnt put up grades lol
 
Hey
Really? Damn
 
Semi what are the hypotheses of Fubini's theorem, for a noob like me that doesn't know fancy integrals?
just for Riemann integrals and limits thereof
 
yeah, while ionic radius has some periodic trend of getting smaller as you move across the period, exceptions are too many for this heuristic to be useful
 
if I had to guess, I got a B
 
12:33 PM
Dunno off the top of my head
 
and anions tend to get worse in predicting via heuristics compared to cations due to electron electron repulsion, which explains things like H- having a very large ionic radius to the point it behaves like a very reactive halide ion
 
I know for integration of a power series absolute convergence is enough
 
I'm usually pretty careless about such things, b/c in physics problems the functions are nice enough that I don't have to worry
 
interestingly enough, my physics II professor was careful lol
he was awesome
 
@GFauxPas Pretty much same thing here. If the double integral over the absolute value is finite, you can switch the order of integration.
 
12:35 PM
@Secret Yeah. Even something as familiar as Hund's rule is ultimately a heuristic
 
ah, got it steamy, thanks
so, like, $x \ln y$ near the origin wouldnt work
even if the double integral converges
 
It may be right for a lot of elements, but ultimately one has to do quantum mechanics in order to predict things
 
"Hund's rule of maximum multiplicity is a rule based on observation of atomic spectra, which is used to predict the ground state o" - stops reading
oh, right, definitely a heuristic, mmhmm for usre
i know exactly what those things are
 
heuristics are useful, however for most organic reactions, cause unless you deal with highly electronically complicated systems, most organic chemical reactions can be estimated quite well via heuristics like nucleophiles and electrophiles and the princple that electron densities tend to flow towards mroe electronegative elements, while slightly more advanced onces can be done well via frontier MO theory

But once you introduce just one metal in the system (or your organic molecule has a lot of delocalisation and other nontrivial things like radicals and excited states), then pretty much he
 
Eh, it's actually pretty simple to explain Hunds rule
 
12:39 PM
I was lucky to get a physics II prof that was careful about hypotheses
 
@GFauxPas Why wouldn't it work?
 
or at least, says things like "and we're going to assume switching the order of integration works, and we'll worry about it later if we run into a problem"
 
Each electron you have in a given atom will have some well-defined quantum numbers (e.g. Spin-up electron in the 2s orbital)
 
hmm, not sure steamy, but like
$\int_0^{e^2} \int_0^y y \ln x \, \mathrm dx \, \mathrm dy$
can I switch the order there?
 
And elections obey the Pauli exclusion principle, so you won't find two of them with the same quantum numbers in a given atom
 
12:43 PM
Well, you're making things very complicated because you have that $y$ in the integral range.
 
So if you've got an atom with multiple electrons, you want to know how what states they'll occupy
Hund's rule tells you how this usually happens
Eg put electrons in the 1s orbital, then 2s, 2p, 3s,3p,4s,3d(?)..,
 
So... $y$ goes from $0$ to $e^2$ and $x$ goes from $0$ to $y$
So you're kind of integrating over a triangle with corners $(0,0)$, $(0,e^2)$ and $(e^2,e^2)$, no?
 
yeah
 
And always fill spin-up states before spin-down
 
yeah but i dont know spin
 
12:46 PM
In that case, you should rewrite your function
 
steamy i just made it up in my head, didnt really think it through
so what would it be?
 
Eh. At this level spin is just drawing an arrow up rather than down
 
$\int_0^{e^2} \int_0^{e^2} y \ln x \chi_{[0,y]}(x) dx dy$
 
oh, that's the same thing just neater, right?
 
So... take the absolute value of the function... and then start with the inner integral
 
12:50 PM
that's like $\Gamma'(e^2)$ or something
 
$\int_0^{e^2} |y \ln x \chi_{[0,y]}(x)| dx = y \int_0^y |\ln x| dx$
 
@Secret on the metallic side it's usually the other way around: everything is delocalized due to the periodicity of the lattice, but impurities/disorder introduce localized states
 
oh oops i was overthinking it
 
that integral will require some work, because if $y > 1$ you need to split it in two integrals to get rid of the absolute value
 
we're just trying to figure out whether it converges, right? not evaluate it?
converges absolutely*
 
12:52 PM
And if you've got strong disorder you get stuff like Anderson localization weeee
 
Whether the double integral converges or not
 
right
 
if it's finite for one order of integration, it's finite for both (and finite for integration over the product measure etc, but nobody really uses that anyway)
 
thats a good thm to know
 
well, with finite I do mean the integral over the absolute value of the function
 
12:54 PM
I am not sure how familar I am with metallic periodic systems (such as bulk alloys or metal organic frameworks),
the systems I work with are coordination or organometallic complexes, where it is molecular with 1-3 metal ions coordinated or covalently bonded to some organic molecules (known as ligands). But even these have highly delocalised electronic states in general, and for lathanides it is even worse because electronic levels are so closely spaced together that its ground state wavefunction has significant excited state character
 
so $x \ln x - x$ for $0 < y < e$, and $x-x\ln x$ for $y \ge e$?
only thing to worry about is $x \ln x$ at $0$
 
Not quite.
$\ln$ is negative on $(0,1)$ and postive for $x > 1$
 
oh right, but besides that it's right?
 
If $y \leq 1$, then $\int_0^y |\ln x| dx = - \int_0^y \ln x dx$ and then you indeed work with that integrand
 
im assuming $y \ge 0$ of course
 
12:57 PM
if $y > 1$, then $\int_0^y |\ln x| dx = - \int_0^1 \ln x dx + \int_1^y \ln x dx$
 
ooh
that's bad
wait, is it
 
It's not too bad, no
 
$x\ln x\leadsto \frac{\ln x}{1/x} \leadsto \dfrac{1/x}{-x^2}$
 
@AkivaWeinberger I do know what countable is.
 
so the limit exists at 0
 
12:59 PM
the limit at $0$ is $0$
 
so the integrand converges absolutely
 
So you'll end up with, something like... ... $y (1 - \ln y)$ for $y \leq 1$, I guess?
 
im just checking if its absolutely convergent, dont care too much what it is
 
Well, you still need to take the second integral of this stuff!
You could try to show this thing is bounded if you don't want to calculate it
 
i'd just use $\ln y \le y -1$ for that
 
1:02 PM
But you can't just say "inner integral is finite, I'm done".
 
innter integrand you mean?
oh, right
because $\ln y$ is still there
needs to be addressed at $0$
 
1:16 PM
I would like to recommend to all users the following talk: Construyendo tu sueño: Mario Alonso Puig at TEDxGranVia, by an spanish surgeon from the official channel TEDx Talks, in YouTube. He tell us higher thoughts. Thus if you've a spanish friend you could see this nice video.
 
what if we dont speak spanish?
 
As I've said, you need a spanish friend. Many thanks @GFauxPas Good luck and good week.
 
are you spanish user?
 
Yes I am spanish.
 
will you be my friend?
 
1:21 PM
@user243301 I am not sure I see what sort of thing he could talk about that would be relevant to mathematicians
 
@TobiasKildetoft I wanted share it if some user want to see it. Many thanks and good week.
 
@user243301 Right, so why advertise it here?
 
user84215
@Semiclassical Thanks for the link. But I still have no intuitive picture of charts for a projective space in general.
 
Fair enough.
 
Referring to that TED talk advert: how is self help topics related to maths?
 
1:32 PM
@aminliverpool The easiest thing to think about is probably $\Bbb R\mathrm P^1$. There you can actually draw the picture that justifies the name "affine charts" for the standard charts on projective spaces.
 
$\Bbb{R}P^1$ is a circle with a point at infinity?
 
With more effort you can do it for $\Bbb R \mathrm P^2$ as well, I guess.
Hey @MikeMiller
 
hiya
 
I got a nopenopenope.jpg from that algebraic geometer in Hannover (unsurprisingly)
How have you been?
 
user84215
RP^2 is the set of all lines through origin in the plane R^2 ?
 
1:36 PM
No, in $\Bbb R^3$
 
user84215
yes
 
i'm really sorry @Danu
I'm ok. I've had trouble getting enough sleep lately for some reason
 
user84215
@Danu Then if I want to assign coordinate to points of the projective space, I must represent it as a union of affine structures. Right?
 
It's OK, this was always a long shot.
@MikeMiller As in you can't sleep or as in you're busy staying up late? ^^
 
I know it still sucks to get
Some combination of both?
I got 7 hours last night and that was p good and I still feel exhausted
 
1:40 PM
@aminliverpool You should use the standard "homogeneous coordinates" $[a:b:c]$ on $\Bbb R\mathrm P^2$.
@MikeMiller Sometimes it's hard to combat tiredness with sleep...
I didn't get a good night's sleep; I got a bit sick. But I'm already mostly recovered.
 
user84215
You mean (a,b,c) = (ka,kb,kc) with k=/0 ?
 
yes, but don't use that notation, because that's the one you use in vector spaces
 
hi chat
 
use the square brackets and colons
 
I need to start sleeping less stupidly.
 
user84215
1:43 PM
Then what should I do?
 
I somehow always find myself staying up into the wee hours of the morning, and then having to get up early to catch my transportation.
Does not lead to good outcomes.
 
New med my doctor had me start on makes me drowsy in the morning too
 
@aminliverpool Then the standard charts are given by $[a:b:c]\mapsto (b/a,c/a)$ on the open subset where $a\neq 0$, and similarly for $b,c$. Now clearly you can also view the copy of $\Bbb R^2$ you obtain by this map as the subset of points of the form $(1,b/a,c/a)$ in $\Bbb R^3$. This is an affine copy of the plane.
Now use this same description and draw a picture for the case of $\Bbb R\mathrm P^1$.
@MikeMiller :( Hope you're OK
By the way, Mike, do you have any idea about existence results for Leray coverings?
Can I typically find a Leray covering for a sheaf (over a Riemann surface, if that makes things easier?)?
 
My sleep schedule is so much a force of (bad) habit that I don't know how likely that is to change soon, unfortunately.
 
I am having trouble understanding quantifiers at the moment., could anyone here give an explanation as to why $\forall x (Ax)$ is not the same as its counterpart in a finite domain of discourse $Ax_1 \land Ax_2 \land ... Ax_n$?
See this question for a better idea of what I am talking about:
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/423656/were-logical-quantifiers-not-primarily-motivated-by-infinite-domains-of-discours
 
user84215
1:49 PM
@Danu That choice of charts comes from the fact that the points in each class are scalar multiples of each other ?
 
Fail:
 
2:10 PM
1
Q: Real projective plane: Geometry of the double line and the centre pinch point

SecretConsider the cross cap representation of $\mathbb{RP}^2$ where the line AB is the double line corresponding to the Whiteney's umbrella Consider the followin injective mapping which embed $\mathbb{RP}^2$ into $\mathbb{R}^4$ (source of $f$ found here) hence remove all self intersections $$f(x,y...

For details (some answers in the comments)
 
2:29 PM
 
hey. does anybody know a good math book about fock spaces?
 
$\mathbb{R}P^2$ is a Möbius disk whose boundary is glued to a disk.
 
indeed
 
@Danu Sorry to make you concerned, it's nothing interesting. I'm fine. :P
I don't recall what a Leray covering is
 
@Secret Then where do you expect a "doule point" to arise from?
 
2:36 PM
Well, it only look like a double point in the projection to 3D, but it is actually a saddle as the comments revealed
 
Well, I guess it's a saddle if you give the cross-cap the induced metric in $\mathbb{E}^3$.
 
@parvin Closed under countable union means that if you take countable many things in your $\sigma$-algebra and union them together (unite them together?), the result is also in the $\sigma$-algebra.
 
I am having trouble understanding quantifiers at the moment., could anyone here give an explanation as to why $\forall x (Ax)$ is not the same as its counterpart in a finite domain of discourse $Ax_1 \land Ax_2 \land ... Ax_n$?
See this question for a better idea of what I am talking about:
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/423656/were-logical-quantifiers-not-primarily-motivated-by-infinite-domains-of-discours
 
@AkivaWeinberger
i get it now...thanks!
@all
hi ! is it correct to say $ P(n*x)=n*P(x) $ ?
 
(I forget what the other stuff was)
What's $P$? Any function? Then no
If it's a linear function ($x$ is a vector, $n$ is a scalar), then yes
 
2:48 PM
Tidier version
Some time later, I need to dig up the maths that allow me to trace circles on any manifold so I can check this pics of mine
This is a (to be verified) pics on what I think a cross cap look like when embedded in $\Bbb{R}^4$
 
@user400188 I still don't see what you mean after seeing that question. Yes, any forall statement with a finite domain can be translated to such an "and" statement
 
What I mean, is what changes in our definition of "forall" when we move to an infinite domain of discourse? And how do we represent it? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@user400188 Nothing changes in the definition of forall
 
sorry that was meant to be "infinite" not finite
 
@user400188 Ahh, I see. Well, what changes is that since we are only allowed to have finite strings for our expressions, we can no longer write down the forall as an "and"
 
3:00 PM
Is that all?
 
Probably depends on how precisely you set everything up
 
I've seen the sentence: "for all x, or exists not x" taken to be a tautology, however I can;t for the life of me see how it could be verified. Could you elude to how it might be done, (or not verified)?
 
If a statement is true for all x, then there exists no x for which it's false.
And if the statement is not true for all x, then there exists some x for which it's false.
 
ah I see now
 
(assuming the set is nonempty :^) )
 
3:09 PM
So "P(x) for all x" is true iff "exists some x for which P(x) is false" is false. So you're doing True OR False = True.
ugh, empty set.
 
yeah I was going to get to that later. Please bear with me for the moment @SteamyRoot
lets hold off the empty for now while I get my head around this
 
Empty set: What my head feels like if I'm forced to worry about the empty set.
 
@Semiclassical I was about to write that myself. (the true or false bit) A or not A (where A is for all x (Bx) and exists x is defined as the negation of forall x not (Bx))
On to the empty set now....
I have a trick of remembering the empty set property of for all x
I define for all x Ax as this. If x has a domain of discourse, then it has property Ax.
 
I don't even remember what "P(x) for all x in X" means if $x$ is the empty set.
Is it just vacously true?
 
yeah
becuase it doesnt have a domain of discourse, so by virtue of the implication, the statement as a whole is true
 
3:15 PM
Right. No possible way to contradict it.
 
yeah thats the other way its done
 
(that's how i tend to frame 'truth' when talking about implication: a statement is logically true if there's no possible way to contradict it.)
 
The way I think of truth for implication is one is true when both sides of the arrow have the same term (or if one side can be simplified to the other with boolean algebra)
 
Mostly I want a way to easily say why $F\implies T$ is logically true.
namely, that since the premise is false there's nothing to contradict.
 
I mean you could contradict that its false. But by contradiction, we normally mean to logical and it with another statement (which happens to be its negation). But doing this operation will always result in another false.
 
3:21 PM
hmm
 
anyway: I have another question about the infinite domain of discourse with forall x Ax.
I have seen it said that if "for all x, Ax" is true, then Ak is true (where k is an arbitrary, but fixed part of the domain of discorse)
This is where my understanding falls apart. Because I can't check to see if its a tautology or not due to the infinite domain of discourse.
Which leaves the question: If its true? How is this so?
 
Might help to use Latex here, this is getting a bit hard to follow without subscripts etc.
 
oh ok
 
(you can enable mathjax using the link in the room description)
 
Repeat:
I have another question about the infinite domain of discourse with $\forall x (Ax)$ :
I have seen it said that if $\forall x(Ax)$ is true, then $Ak$ is true (where $k$ is an arbitrary, but fixed part of the domain of discourse) .
This is where my understanding falls apart, because I can't check to see if its a tautology or not due to the infinite domain of discourse.
 
3:28 PM
Should that be $A(x)$ and $A(k)$ where $x\in X$ and $k\subset X$?
(And for that matter $\forall x\in X$)
 
I haven't even gotten around to defining (or learning definitions for) subset and element.
 
In the textbooks I've seen, $\in$ isn't used for all instances of $\forall x$
 
Fair.
 
So I assume its not a nessesary requirement
 
3:30 PM
I presume $Ax$ instead of $A(x)$ is also just notational?
 
correct
 
mmkay.
I mean, it seems sound: If Ax is true for all x in the domain of discourse, then any collection of such statements should also be true.
 
Its clearly the case for a finite domain; but how can we verify that for an infinite one?
 
Here we reach the limits of what I can usefully say, alas.
The ins-and-outs of logic aren't something I'm versed on, especially on infinite domains
 
I would love to use induction; but I am asking whether a thing is true in both the finite and infinite domain of discourse. Unfortunately induction does not work in a finite domain of discourse becuase the last element (the one at the end) pops off so to speak.
 
3:34 PM
Right.
About the only thing I know re: logic on infinite domains is Yablo's paradox, and while that's fun it's probably not terribly informative.
 
14 hours ago, by Ted Shifrin
You can never invert 0. :)
 
Does anyone know anything about Asymotpic Analysis
 
Addenum: You can NEVER invert 0 in ANY ring (trivial ring is too trivial to count), no matter how clever you are
 
I wouldnt consider myself knowageable on quantifiers if I could not answer questions about them in infinite domains. I want to be knowlagable....
$(k[(\lnot I)\implies (\lnot K)])\implies I$
This tautologically implies that I need to learn about quantifiers in infinite domains.
sorry, couldn't help myself
Anyway: Thanks for the help @Semiclassical @TobiasKildetoft @SteamyRoot > I'm going to bed now.
 
night
 
4:04 PM
@Secret: $-0$?
:P
 
O, when we talk about invert, we usually talk about multiplicative inverses, I guess...
(and it is the case in Ted's discussion there)
 
@GFauxPas That is not the inverse, that is the opposite. So I suppose you have now opposed 0?
 
$-0=0$ in rings though
 
Additive inverse vs. multiplicative inverse.
 
Meanwhile in chemistry: That computing cluster I am doing my calculations on have a lot of path refering errors and inconsistency and I have been spending the last 6 hours working alongside the help centre to get them all ironed out so that my orbital calculations can finally work

Still working on it...
O btw speaking about clusters, metal clusters have very crazy electronics compared to both periodic structures, coordination complexes and organometallics, which makes DFT calculations on them very difficult
(I am working with organometallic molecules, thus I am alright except for those programming issues)
 
4:11 PM
how do you model that?
Seems like you'd have to do something involving disorder
 
Well, it is not a periodic structure, but an isolated molecule, thus all you need is to compute its electron density and orbitals, which gaussian 16 can do it no problem
The gas phase calculations agrees quite well with the x ray structures and energetics that my supervisor have obtained, thus benchmarking suggests the modelling will be fine
Metal clusters (something that other groups done and they came to present about in a seminar some weeks ago) on the other hand, don't really have a notion of a geometry as there are many configurations of the metal atoms with very closely spaced energy levels, making the calculation quite nontrivial
 
4:27 PM
Hmm.
huh, someone at my uni evidently did a thesis on such DFT calculations for metal clusters: conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/183380
 
4:52 PM
@Secret Hey, remember a while ago we were talking about visual representations of $\Bbb Q$?
I found this on my phone that I forgot about: i.imgur.com/…
Essentially the rationals arranged by denominator I guess
(Technically the dyadic rationals, but whatever)
--Oh, yeah, I remember what that was for now!
There's this puzzle about finding uncountable chains of subsets of $\Bbb N$
That was essentially a visualization of the solution
…Alternatively, this is just a representation of an enumeration of the (dyadic) rationals.
 
Something something ford circles?
Though I guess one would need a 3D version of that.
 

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