« first day (2438 days earlier)      last day (2588 days later) » 

9:00 PM
Indeed, vertical tangents are the source of trouble.
 
Then you disallow my example as a kink, @Balarka, and I say you're wrong.
 
@TedShifrin Thanks for reminding me about chemistry, I'll talk to you later! It was nice hearing from you today!
 
So the answer is $\sqrt[\Large 3]x$
 
LOL. See ya, @Dodsy :)
That's a perfectly smooth curve, DogAteMy :)
 
What kind of weird function are you guys looking for?
 
9:00 PM
@BalarkaSen Uhh, is our function necessarily continuous?
 
Aha, then something e.g. $f(x) = \sqrt{|x|}$ would be an example.
 
Who the hell knows, @Alessandro :)
 
@TedShifrin $y = \sqrt[3]{x}$ is not diff at $0$.
 
But the curve is a smooth manifold.
Are we talking curves or are we talking functions?
 
That's the point. That's the question :P
 
9:01 PM
rolls 13 eyes and goes away
 
@Balarka Ooh, yeah that's sneaky
 
@TedShifrin surely not me, I tried to follow the conversation but quickly got lost on what exactly you're talking about
 
Instead of bending back down, it just subtlely returns to it's right-bound path
 
@AlessandroCodenotti @TedShifrin They just wanted a function with a smooth graph that wasn't differentiable.
 
@Meow Right, so the tangent line to $(0, 0)$ on the curve is a vertical line. $\theta$ = 90 degrees, $\tan(\theta)$ is undefined. Function's not diff at that point.
 
9:04 PM
I'm going to go play bombparty. Nice talking to y'all
 
I think it's even possible to have a smooth graph which is nowhere differentiable but I am not sure.
I can certainly make it non-differentiable on the rationals, say, by plugging in a small $y = \sqrt[3]{x}$ at each rational point.
No, I take it back. I don't believe the first thing is possible.
If that had to happen every point would have to have a vertical tangent. Certainly can never happen.
But you can probably have a smooth graph with function nowhere differentiable on the rationals, or on a Cantor set and stuff like that using this idea.
 
There's a stronger version of the implicit function theorem (which I learned about on MSE, actually) wherein you don't even need to assume $C^1$ as long as you have partial derivative nonzero.
 
Nonzero on a neighborhood, right?
 
Right.
 
I think I learnt about this from Terry Tao, but I forget.
 
9:08 PM
There are Lebesgue differentiation theorems which might have something to say about what you're now conjecturing. We need @robjohn or @DanielF.
I might have seen Tao's write-up of it, actually.
 
@Ted that's from an answer by Georges, right?
 
I am not conjecturing much :)
 
I didn't think so, @PVAL. He's an algebraic geometry guy.
 
But I should stop rambling and get to work.
 
Yes, it's already un-sleep time, Balarka.
 
9:10 PM
I wanna be an algebraic geometry guy
 
Zach, you have a long way to go. Chill.
 
I'm expressing my wonder, @Ted!
 
I wanted to be an algebraic geometry guy at some point.
 
Zach, how about we do a reading of Hartshorne? Should take 3-4 weeks :P
 
I have been one. I have alternately claimed diff geo and alg geo, always using the other to profess ignorance when cornered :P
 
9:11 PM
Lol jk
 
I want to be like the guy in those movies where someone asks "Who is he?" and a guy with a deep voice says "He's only the best God damn algebraic geometer this country has"
 
@daminark you mispelled years.
 
But yeah I am still figuring out what I want to do in math, but I def intend to take algebraic geometry 4th year
 
Is Fulton retired?
 
I don't want my best geometric intuition to be sheaf cohomology theory.
 
9:13 PM
Does he still teach it?
 
"Algebraic geometry? Pfft, I learned that in high school!"
 
Hopefully in grad algebra, but if I don't go for that I'll just take the undergrad variant
 
I guess Phd in 1966 means likely hes retired
 
Alg geo is best saved for way more background.
 
@Ted The joke is
people would think it's just the study of algebra and geometry
Like, parabolas
 
9:14 PM
You need graduate algebra, commutative algebra, and some course in the complex (smooth) version of stuff helps with intuition (at least Riemann surfaces, hopefully a bit of complex geometry).
 
And so that's what they'd say
 
I'd throw in alg. topology to that list.
 
Lol, the way algebra works here is odd
 
I don't intend to do algebraic geometry any time soon.
 
Yeah, for sure ...
 
9:15 PM
One should see singular homology, before seeing sheaf cohomology.
 
Well, algebraists do everything with derived functors. They don't even do Cech cohomology. Ugh.
 
The class only requires the full year of analysis and the first two quarters of algebra
 
Yeah, I totally agree with PVAL.
 
They had a presentation of the master's courses here and geometry looks very attractive
 
Demonark, @Eric and I have established that the UC curriculum is a mess. Take my advice on this one.
 
9:16 PM
@TedShifrin Cech is hard to do with Zariski topology, but yeah.
 
@Daminark Come play word games
 
Anyhow, go work/un-sleep, Balarka. I'm outta here.
 
Here's a nice game for everyone: gabrielecirulli.github.io/2048
 
But they strongly recommend point-set, complex, and the third quarter algebra. For some reason, though, commutative algebra is a class in the winter quarter while algeo is fall
 
Sorry I had to post that
 
9:17 PM
As an Italian I am required by law to disapprove
 
Whatever the case, though, I'll see how to partition classes at some point. The high priority will be those classes that you kinda need to know lest you're completely lost in grad school, followed by some number of classes that will be for "need to make sure I won't be broke if academia doesn't blow over well."
 
@AlessandroCodenotti You guys have really good meatballs
 
After that it's just gonna be more casual electives
 
bombparty.sparklinlabs.com/play/mathse If anyone wants to play word games.
 
@Daminark Benson teaches alg geo and he strikes me as the kind of guy who would give you conrete stuff
 
9:19 PM
Benson as in Benson Farb?
 
yup
 
He teaches algebraic geometry??!?
 
@Eric Does he do it consistently or does it alternate?
 
Ahh I know someone who took that course.
 
uhhh not 100% sure how consistently he does it but he's done the last couple years
 
9:21 PM
Is it F&H?
Is that the book used?
 
Is this a classical algebraic geometry course, or really modern-machinery stuff?
 
Under Farb
I seriously doubt its scheme theory.
 
let me check, he mentioned the book in an email exchange i had with him a couple months ago
 
It's sort of surprising that people at UC use anything other than the Fulton books when it comes to this stuff.
 
@PVAL Well, I'd be surprised if Fulton-type intersection theory is taught too, not just schemes.
 
9:23 PM
"The text for the course is: “Elementary Algebraic Geometry” by K. Hulek"
that's what he used a couple years ago
 
Looks classical.
 
So that should be very topicy and light.
 
i think this year he used kendig
 
I looked at evals just now
He used Arrondo's "Intro to Projective Varieties"
 
That looks somewhat similar to the text we used for my first quarter of AG under oprea, though probably a lot lighter mathematik.uni-kl.de/~gathmann/class/alggeom-2002/main.pdf
 
9:26 PM
oh weird
maybe he used different books for prepping lectures/assigning hw
 
Though looking at the table of contents I don't see RR
so I am not really sure what the point is.
 
I liked what I read from Gathmann
Lots of examples and concrete pictures
By RR did you mean Riemann-Roch? He covers that.
 
Gathmann does
I don't know if Hulek does.
 
Oh I see.
I don't know that book.
 
He also recommended Fulton and Hulek
 
9:30 PM
I think there was a course here that used Hulek my first year of grad school that I dropped because I felt the material was beneath me.
 
@Daminark if im not mistaken i think the second quarter of grad algebra is more modern algebraic geometry if that's something you wanna know
 
Yeah, that's the other thing I'm looking at
Basically, the hope is grad, and if not, I'll take corresponding topics at the undergrad level, like commutative algebra, algebraic geometry, rep theory, all that
 
@MeowMix Are you playing the game?
 
@AkivaWeinberger Oh, let me get on
I thought you weren't going to
 
arent some of those at the same time @Daminark
 
9:32 PM
I can now
Wanna play?
 
Geometry and rep theory are fall quarter, not sure about timing
 
like rep theory and algebraic geometry i think are during the same quarter or something
 
Sure :)
 
@daminark Are you convinced you are more on the algebra side of the algebra/analysis dichotomy?
 
9:33 PM
@TedShifrin what are you looking for?
 
I mean I'll have to see when I learn algebra more thoroughly, right now I /kinda/ know group theory and linear algebra, ish
 
because I think that dichotomy is horseshit. (and realized this after already specializing more towards algebra because I thought I fit more on that side.)
 
Also @Eric in fall quarter they did not happen at the same time, one was 10:30 TR and the other was 12:30 MWF
 
As an undergrad, you should really try and learn some analysis, some algebra and some geometry.
and decide what you like after you've had experience (preferably at least at the level of "first year" grad courses).
 
ah ok I see, so it's doable if you've made it through the sequences
 
9:35 PM
Yup
 
@PVAL in what way do you mean that the dichotomy is horseshit?
I mean, I agree, just curious
 
@Eric In that if you enjoyed your undergraduate analysis sequence more than your undergraduate algebra sequence, you should not base very much of your career on that fact.
That's at least what I did (or the opposite of what I did), and I hugely regret it.
 
yeah I see
 
@PVAL Alright, I'll make sure to keep that in mind
 
It's nice to explore specializations as an undergrad, and if you get the opportunity to do research you NEED to take it.
But in terms of classes I think you should learn broad things early and specialize more later.
 
9:42 PM
thinking about undergrad research kind of terrifies me
 
It generally isn't going to be the kind of thing you'll get hired/postdocs based on.
 
@PVAL You based much of your career on that?
 
Well
I based much of the course I took in undergrad
on that
I think.
 
actually i think the thing that terrifies me is developing relationships to get rec letters
 
I meant "undergrad career"
 
9:45 PM
Sure. I didn't do much of value in my undergrad so I tend not to count the start of whatever my career is there.
 
I meant undergraduate degree.
 
Same @Eric, honestly I don't even know how to approach a professor about something like a reading course
Like, it feels like I'm wasting their time or smth
 
Go to OH's of all the professors in classes you are interested in.
If the professors seem to like having students in their OH's keep going all the time.
 
I know consciously that it isn't but it feels like it's gonna be hard to shake that off
 
Some of them will act like you are wasting their time.
but still they are in education for a reason, and most are very willing to answer questions if you've prepared and thought about them enough already.
 
9:49 PM
yeah, I think ultimately I'll be in good shape, thinking about the future and the uncertainty of where ill be going for grad school just makes all these things more scary
 
I think if you're coming out of Chicago it probably doesn't matter much what you do. You'll probably leave in good enough shape.
 
yeah i guess people coming out of here tend to go to pretty good places
we had like 3 people get into princeton last year it was pretty crazy
 
Oh damn
 
As undegrads you can probably get away without communicating too much towards professors.
But at the next stage you'll have to find someone willing to be your adviser
and that
is quite a step up from asking someone for a letter.
so you might as well get used to already.
 
I found that easier.
But I think I just sound like a contrarian.
 
9:56 PM
In general, you should communicate with (at least some of) your professors because it is good for you.
whether it helps your stock for grad school or not.
(It of course does help very significantly.)
 
I agree with that
 
@s.harp are we finally on at the same time again?
And yeah, I'll keep that in mind
 
possibly
 
What would you guys say are those topics that you just kind of are supposed to know lest you get lost in grad school? From what I've heard, that applies to real analysis, complex, point-set, and algebra for sure, but are there other subjects of the sort?
Rehi @Ted!
 
rehi Demonark
 
10:08 PM
hi @Ted
 
hi @Eric
 
@Daminark I don't think that's a useful question to answer. Look up the prelim / basic quals at various schools. At the minimum you want to pass those.
In any case most of the point is less for you to learn specific things and more to get better at understanding what you're thinking about
 
Hi @robjohn. The question I pinged you and DanielF on was raised by Balarka: If you have a graph of a continuous function $f\colon\Bbb R\to\Bbb R$ and the graph is a smooth (say $C^1$?) curve, on what set $S$ can $f$ fail to be differentiable?
 
(I think $S$ can be rationals or cantor sets)
 
Damn, Balarka is still not un-sleeping.
 
10:20 PM
I should though
 
Isn't this the same thing as saying that $f$ or its inverse is smooth at each point?
Locally.
 
Oh, this actually follows (in part) from what @Alessandro is now pondering. The derivative is a pointwise limit of continuous functions, so can only be discontinuous on a set of first category.
 
Today I heard that there exist things called "special generic functions"
 
@MikeMiller Yeah, sounds right
 
atleast there dont appear to exist "generic special functions" though
 
10:22 PM
Looking at it from the x-axis, valleys and peaks are clearly smooth, and any point of non-smoothness can be clarified by looking st it from the y-axis.
 
@MikeM: Yeah, that should follow by applying the inverse function theorem to the two projections, I guess.
 
So what can we say about the points where f is not differentiable?
 
How, how are things
Oh, I see
 
Heya, DogAteMy :)
 
Remind me — first category is countable union of closed sets? @TedShifrin
No
That makes no sense
 
10:26 PM
Nope.
 
Countable intersection of open sets...?
 
nowhere dense sets
 
That makes no sense either
@AlessandroCodenotti Ahh, OK.
 
@AkivaWeinberger that's called $G_\delta$
 
Countable union of closed nowhere dense sets :P
 
10:27 PM
Got it
So, $\Bbb Q$ and Cantor sets, for example
 
@Ted Let M be a Riemannian manifold equipped with a metric connection. Is the torsion precisely the obstruction to normal coordinates?
 
@MikeM: I'm confused by your phrasing. By usual definition, a metric connection is torsion-free.
I guess I don't know the answer to your question, though.
 
Metric to me just means it preserves the metric.
Aka an O(n)-connection.
I guess to you metric literally means Levi-Civita.
 
10:42 PM
It's not unique if it doesn't have the torsion-free condition I guess
 
Right, @Balarka.
 
Surely this is in KN if true.
 
So I can put, for example, a flat left-invariant connection on a Lie group. So everything is in the torsion.
I don't think anyone tries to do Riemannian normal coordinates with anything but Levi-Civita.
After all, if you have normal coordinates, then I guess it follows that torsion is 0 at any point. So I guess that answers your question.
Oh, indeed, it's in KN, @MikeM. See p. 148.
 
Just got there. Yup.
 
You only get the vanishing of the Christoffel symbols if it's torsion-free. Otherwise, you get $\Gamma^i_{jk}+\Gamma^i_{kj} = 0$ at the center of the normal coordinates.
I've never thought about this.
 
10:46 PM
If you want to interpret torsion as obstruction to integrability, you want to know what the "canonical charts" are in the Riemannian setting. I guess that's geodesic normal coordinates.
Or rather we just found that in KN.
 
Torsion is extremely subtle.
Robert Bryant and Robbie Gardner ran a weekend seminar years ago where we went through one of Cartan's papers in which torsion was made understandable.
(I drove 12+ hours to participate in that.)
 
Sure. But my understanding of it as being about integrability didn't mesh with my Riemannian picture.
 
It's not like you can see curvature as obstruction to integrability of a distribution in the frame bundle.
 
Two different kinds of integrability, but I agree.
 
I'm back
 
10:49 PM
I've forgotten the details, but integrating torsion of an affine connection around a little loop gives you the translation the base point undergoes when you use the affine connection to parallel translate around the loop.
I'm leaving momentarily.
 
Are we thinking of fibers as O(n)?
 
At any rate, @MikeM, you still have normal coordinates, even so, @MikeM. It's just the extra vanishing condition.
No, affine orthogonal group.
 
Makes more sense.
Gotcha @Ted. Well, it makes sense that those are the right notion of canonical charts. They're important!
 
Oh, agreed.
 

« first day (2438 days earlier)      last day (2588 days later) »