« first day (2086 days earlier)      last day (2937 days later) » 

6:00 PM
Oh?
Is it squats? I've been doing squats
 
can you calculate $H_n(P^n,\mathbb{Z}_2)$ given that you know that $H_i(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) = \mathbb{Z}_2$ for i = n and i = 0 and other wise 0. And that you have the following long exact sequence
 
silly DogAteMy :D
 
$0 \rightarrow H_n(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_n(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_n(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_{n - 1}(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow ...$
 
Hello, I need help with this:
Find the number ab ; if a/b = 2 with (1 left) and a0b/(a-b) = 175,75
 
@Adeek Put a `\\` somewhere in there; I can't see the whole thing
 
6:02 PM
can you calculate $H_i(RP^n)$ for all i >= n?
 
I am sure it is simple but I didn't remember this type
:(
 
What does "a0b" mean? @Ivan
 
what do you mean ?
@AkivaWeinberger
 
Are they digits? Is a0b a three-digit number?
 
yes
ab is 2 digit
in a0b there is a 0 between a and b as you see..
 
6:04 PM
@Adeek It got formatted badly. I meant \\, two slashes
 
between the sequence ?
 
@Ivan a=7 and b=3
 
@AkivaWeinberger well, I got the answer but I can't figure out how to write it down correctly haha, thanks :)
 
$0 \rightarrow H_n(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_n(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_n(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow \\ H_{n - 1}(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow \dotsb\\$
 
yeah that is it
that is the sequence
yeah
 
6:06 PM
How do you get that sequence?
 
it is a long story
So
you have the following short exact sequence
$ 0 \rightarrow C_i(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow C_i(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow C_i(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow 0$
 
Oh
I see
I undo and redo the double cover
 
There was some other student two days back told that he would be presenting Borsuk-Ulam theorem.
 
$p_{\#} : C_i(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow C_i(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2)$
 
where by "undoing" I mean take the sum of the things that cover it
 
6:08 PM
that was me @Mambo
 
@AkivaWeinberger could you please show me? :(
 
@Adeek No it was not you
Do you have two accounts or what ?
 
@Ivan Oh, sorry
 
and $\tau : C_i(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow C_i(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2)$ is defined as $\tau(\sigma) = \tilde{\sigma}^1 + \tilde{\sigma}^2$
 
6:09 PM
So, a/b=2 remainder 1, a0b/(a-b)=175.75
 
no
no @Mambo
was he presenting the general Ulam-Borsuk theorem in any dimension ?
 
Well, we know that a0b is a whole number, right?
 
yes
 
@Adeek
 
And so is a-b
So a0b is a multiple of 175.75 (because a0b/(a-b)=175.75)
 
6:10 PM
Did you post a proof and asked for explanation of null-homotopy ?
 
Now, go through the multiples of 175.75, looking for any that are three digits and whole numbers
There aren't many
 
hmm
 
In fact, 175.75 * 4 = 703 is the only one
So we have 703/4=175.75
and if a0b=703, then a=7 and b=3
 
yeah
thanks :))
 
And we can double-check that 7/3=2 remainder 1 and that 703/(7-3)=175.75
7 mins ago, by Akiva Weinberger
$0 \rightarrow H_n(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_n(S^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow H_n(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow \\ H_{n - 1}(RP^n,\mathbb{Z}_2) \rightarrow \dotsb\\$
So I already know the homology of the sphere
For $k\ne0,n$, we have $H_k(P^n)\simeq H_{k-1}(P^n)$
by the sequence
 
6:14 PM
why ?
 
$$H_k(S^n)\to H_k(P^n)\to H_{k-1}(P^n)\to H_{k-1}(S^n)$$
wait
I only get the equivalence for $k\ne0,1,n,n+1$
But if $k=0$ I know $H_0$ anyway
 
well, you see from the start of the sequence we get that $H_n(P^n,\mathbb{Z}_2)$ must embded into $H_n(S^n,Z_2) = Z_2$
right ?
so it must be a subgroup of $Z_2$ so it is either 0 or $Z_2$
I think if we assume it is 0 we get a contradiction somehow
 
and for $k=1$ the latter map is the zero map. For $k=n$ the former map is zero.
So the isomorpism works for there too
So, so far I've proven $H_k(P^n)=\Bbb Z_2$ for $0\le k\le n$
 
and that is true
I don't understand your proof however 1 sec let me see why
 
And I need to prove its 0 for higher
 
6:21 PM
why is $H_k(P^n) = \mathbb{Z}_2$ for $0 \leq k \leq n$?
 
We know $\underset0\to A\to B\underset0\to$ means $A\approx B$, right?
Just a second
 
yes
 
We know $\underset0\to A\to B\underset0\to\\$ means $A\approx B$, right?
Yeah. So, in that long exact sequence, we get a lot of those
giving lots of isomorphisms
 
but what why do you have <= n
why = ?
 
You see how I got this, right?:
9 mins ago, by Akiva Weinberger
$$H_k(S^n)\to H_k(P^n)\to H_{k-1}(P^n)\to H_{k-1}(S^n)$$
 
6:25 PM
yes
and for 0 you don't have that as well
why you get equality in the 0 ?
 
For $k=0$ it doesn't matter. Who cares about $H_{k-1}=H_{-1}$?
We already know $H_0(P^n)=\Bbb Z_2$, 'cause it's path-connected
 
I mean how do you get $H_0(P^n) = \mathbb{Z}_2$ from the sequence
 
@Adeek Just path connectedness. We need to start somewhere
 
what about $H_n(P^n) = \mathbb{Z}_2$?
yeah
I guess so yeah
 
If $1\le k\le n$, we have zero maps on either side. The hard bits are $k=1$ and $k=n$
 
6:27 PM
yeah
 
but you can check that the last arrow is the zero map for $k=1$, and the first arrow is the zero map for $k=n$
The first map is $p_* $ and the last is $\tau_*$, right?
 
yeah
just a sec
 
For $k=1$, $\tau_*$ takes the generator $[\alpha]\in H_0(P^n)$ to $[\beta]+[\beta]=0\in H_0(S^n)$
where $\alpha$ and $\beta$ are points on $P^n$ and $S^n$
So, zero map.
 
yeah I see
 
For $k=n$, $p_* $ takes the generator of $H_n(S^n)$ to twice the generator of $H_n(P^n)$, which is zero in this coefficient group
 
6:36 PM
yeah
 
This is all much easier done via cellular homology…
Not sure how to show that the higher homology groups are zero here.
 
it is because $P^n$ is a CW-complex of dimension n.
 
6:47 PM
Wasn't sure if you wanted to show it from the sequence
 
I don't think it is possible to show it from sequence
 
7:06 PM
Hey guys. I'm having some trouble with finding Laurent series. Can you please take a look?
0
Q: Expand the function $f(z)=\frac{1}{(z-a)(z-b)}$ where $0 < |a| < |b|$ in a Laurent series in different annuli

Jessy CatI have to expand the function $f(z) = \frac{1}{(z-a)(z-b)}$ where $a, b \in \mathbb{C}$, $0 < |a| < |b|$ in the following annuli: (a) $0<|z|<|a|$ (b) $|a|<|z|<|b|$ (c) $|b|<|z|$ I made bonafide attempts at $(b)$ and $(c)$, which I'll share below; however, I was not sure what to do about the $0<...

@robjohn, heya
If anybody can help me, I really do not know how to do Laurent series for regions with $0$ as a left endpoint, and I can't find any examples online.
I'm trying to teach myself.
 
7:24 PM
@MikeMiller @TedShifrin So, it's not really clear to me how to define the $d : \Omega^0 \to \Omega^1$ for a smooth vector bundle $E/M$. For the cotangent bundle one takes a smooth function $f$ on $M$ and gets the 1-form $x \mapsto df_x$. But how do I define the differential of a function for a general vector bundle?
 
@robjohn, I seriously don't know. Please don't be socratic with me.
@robjohn, oh n/m I misunderstood what you were trying to say...computers are like that. LOL
 
Sorry, you still haven't told me where you're going to.
You start with a section, you output ???
 
Are we defining a 1-form for a general smooth vector bundle $E/M$ here? Then that eats a section $M \to E$ and spits a smooth function on $M$.
 
@BalarkaSen No, I'm asking you, before you say you don't know how to define $d$, what $d$ should map between. What you just told me is not consistent with how $d$ works on 0-forms.
$d$ does not take a function and spit out a thing that (eats functions and spits out functions).
 
Oh. So maybe I misunderstood something there. Is it right that $d : \Omega^0 \to \Omega^1$ eats a smooth function and spits out the 1-form $M \to T^*M$ given by $p \mapsto d_pf$? ($d_pf$ is a linear functional on $T_pM$).
 
7:38 PM
Yes.
Start with a section of $E$. Before trying to say what $d$ should be, you need to tell me what its codomain should be!
 
Ok, so something I am not clear on. Is this $d$ you are talking about a map $\Omega^1 \to \Omega^2$ instead of $\Omega^0 \to \Omega^1$? Because we seem to be starting with smooth sections of $E$ (which are analogous to 1-forms rather than 0-forms).
No, that's not right.
Sections of $E^*$ are 1-forms, not $E$.
Oh, or have we just replaced $T^*M$ itself by $E$? Then I retract my previous "not right" comment.
@MikeMiller So, if I start with a smooth section of $E$, $d$ should take that to a smooth section of $E \wedge E$.
 
7:53 PM
Nothing you're saying is making any sense at all.
 
Hmm, so maybe I didn't understand this buisness. Let me ask for a clarification: we replaced the cotangent bundle $T^*M/M$ by an arbitrary bundle $E/M$. $d$ is defined as a map $\Omega^0 \to \Omega^1$ in the cotangent space world. Now you're asking me to look at $d$ for $E/M$, and asking to start with a section of $E$. But in the particular case $E = T^*M$, section of $E$ is a $1$-form, which lives in $\Omega^1$, not $\Omega^0$, which is the domain of $d$. This is where I am confused.
Summary: Why should $d$ eat a section of $E$? In the particular case of $E = T^*M$, a section of $E$ is a $1$-form, whereas $d$ eats a $0$-form.
 
hi
Is it true that if $A$ and $B$ are nonempty sets, then $A \times B = B \times A$ if and only if $A = B$?
 
8:10 PM
@user19405892 Yes. If for example $a \in A \setminus B$, and $b\in B$, then $(a,b) \in A\times B \setminus B\times A$.
 
@DanielFischer What does that show?
 
@BalarkaSen You're getting lost in notation. In the case you're thinking about already, you have sections of the trivial bundle $\Bbb R$ over $M$, and you're taking their derivatives locally to get a 1-form.
Now "taking their derivatives locally" seems like something you could do in any setting. Take a vector bundle $E \to M$. You can define $\Gamma(E) = \Omega^0(E)$ (again - this is just notation).
The "exterior derivative" should take a section of $E$ and send it to... who knows. That's your job to figure out where it would go.
 
Thanks for the reply and thanks for being patient. I'll sit quietly and think for a few minutes and try sort it out.
 
@user19405892 That $A \times B \neq B \times A$ if $A$ isn't a subset of $B$. The rest is symmetry.
 
Ah, so that shows that $(a,b)$ is an element of $A \times B$ such that $a \neq b$.
So you are considering the case when $A \neq B$ and then saying if that is the case, then $(a,b) \in A \times B$ such that $a \neq b$.
 
8:30 PM
@DanielFischer I have written a comment for your question here :math.stackexchange.com/questions/1750854/…
 
@MikeMiller I see. So the situation is this: sections $M \to M \times \Bbb R$ give smooth functions on $M$ after composing with the second projection $M \times \Bbb R \to \Bbb R$, so these are the same.
The most obvious interpretation of "taking derivative locally" I see is by taking a chart $U$ of $M$, looking at the image of the section sitting in $U \times \Bbb R$ (which sits above $U$) and do best linear approximation. Literally what is happening is that the section in $U \times \Bbb R$ is graph of the smooth function.
This can clearly be done for arbitrary smooth vector bundles, by taking a chart on $M$, shrinking it further to $U$ so that it becomes a trivialization for $E \to M$, then looking at the graph inside $U \times \Bbb R^k$ again. That's what we are doing, right?
 
I dunno what you're doing, it's your job to figure that out.
It's Ted's question anyway. I was just trying to get you to start with step zero: if the question is "Why is the cotangent bundle/smooth functions special", so you start asking if there's a $d: \Gamma(E) \to ?$, your first step is to solve for ?
 
Yeah, I agree. Thanks though. I'll keep thinking.
Yeah, I understand your question now. It's not clear what kind of beast I get if I apply my "take derivative locally" to some section of $E$. But I should certainly get something.
I need to figure out what it is.
@PVAL I pinged you a proposed counterexample to the question you asked yesterday. Have you seen it/seen the ping?
 
8:48 PM
Hello!!! If we have $C=A \otimes B$ will the cardinality of C be equal to the cardinality of A times the cardinality of B ?
 
I bought my tickets to Rice.
 
@BalarkaSen So what's do you think is true about the intersection theory of lines that isn't true about the combinatorial definition?
 
Hey @DanielFischer
Do you maybe have an idea?
 
Genericity of non-collinearity of 3 or more points.
 
That isn't a statement.
 
8:50 PM
@Evinda That's pretty much the definition of the product of cardinal numbers.
 
I mean that's precisely what the counterexample exploited. We had a line passing through $3$ generic points. That cannot be done in $\Bbb P^2$.
 
Why do proofs of things in set theory, for example De Morgan's Laws, assume $x \in A$? What if $A$ is empty? Is it because De Morgan's Laws, for example, hold trivially if any one of the sets is empty?
 
In the moduli space $\Bbb P^2 \times \cdots \times \Bbb P^2$ ($n$ times) of configuration of $n \geq 3$ points in $\Bbb P^2$, there is an open subset such that picking any configuration from it I get noncollinear points. That's what I broke up there.
So not sure why that's not a statement.
 
And this shows that you can't realize this by any set of lines why?
I think I can realize your example by lines in R^2
I don't see why you'd think thats a counterexample.
 
@DanielFischer I think I found how many pairs are there. Can you tell me if its correct or not
 
8:54 PM
A ok..I want to find a code with at most 27 elements and I found one with 9 elements and an other on with 3... But I don't want the equality to hold... @DanielFischer
 
@PVAL OK, maybe you're right. It's a generic counterexample, I should say. There is a closed set in the moduli space of all configuration of lines and points in $\Bbb P^2$ (whatever that means) where it can be realized.
 
Hey guys, I'm back with another question about Laurent series:
0
Q: Laurent expansion of $\frac{1}{(z-a)^{k}}$, $k \in \mathbb{N}$

Jessy CatI need to expand the function $f(z)=\frac{1}{(z-a)^{k}}$ where $a \in \mathbb{C}$, $a \neq 0$, $k \in \mathbb{Z}$, $k>0$ in a Laurent series in the annuli (a) $0< |z|<|a|$ (b) $|a|<|z|$ Note that earlier, I found the Laurent series for $\displaystyle g(z) = \frac{1}{(z-a)}$ to be $\displaysty...

And only 2 people (one was me!) have looked at my question yet,...
 
cuz it's been 3 min
4
 
hmm
 
@JessyCat If you've already done (a) and (b), what's there left to do?
 
8:58 PM
@arctictern, I did it for the regular function in a different problem, not the derivative.
Actually, it's not the derivative per se. I did it for $g(z) = \frac{1}{(z-a)}$ and now I need to do it for $f(z) = \frac{1}{(z-a)^{k}}$
 
ah you did it with k=1
 
yeah!
 
yeah so you ultimately want to use a laurent series for (1-w)^-k to do these
 
Yes.
And I tried to get there by taking derivatives, applying a theorem, and moving some constants to the other side.
 
right
 
9:01 PM
Only thing is, I'm not sure if I need to show that the conditions exist in which I can use said theorem.
And why it looks so god-awful ugly.
 
ugh, that's definitely not something I like to think about
 
I mean, geometric series are uniformly convergent, right?
 
as an algebraist, I always assume I can take derivatives termwise, cuz I don't do bookkeeping
 
all I need is uniform convergence of the sum and each term to be analytic on the domain. The analyticity I have. Just not sure if the uniform convergence is something I have to explicitly show, or I can use the fact that the series we're dealing with is geometric and "it is known" that geometric series are uniformly convergent (if indeed that's true).
 
@robjohn Hey. I know you're pretty busy all the time. In the near future I'd like to have my book reviewed (the stuff is pretty hard to follow), and I have some people in mind, but I hope not all will be that busy. Also a partial review might be precious.
 
9:04 PM
Ok, prof says I can use it without proof. (He's also an algebraist).
I am having to teach myself a lot of this stuff tho.
Now I just need to know if it looks right or if it's too ugly.
 
@robjohn I'll let you know later how things will evolve. I'm still undecided about many points which I want to change.
There is always something you wanna modify, improve, like a neverending job.
Now, referring to the rest of the users, what question to ask you guys?
 
@user1618033 Let me know. I'd be glad to help.
 
@robjohn AMAZING :-) Thank you!
 
would you @robjohn please consider putting this room on your favourites list just to keep DanielFischer company :)
 
9:28 PM
@skillpatrol why would that keep him company?
 
@robjohn he just looks lonely in there :P
 
Does anyone here work on $C^*$- algebras
 
@PVAL OK, here's a construction based on the same picture, but not only is it generically norealizable but also completely so:
 
Hey
I thought that the answer would be 21, but it is 4 and I don't see how
i suppose you could get 4 by adding up the z values and taking the square root but im not sure if that's the correct answer
 
Here $\ell_1, \cdots, \ell_6$ are cyclically placed so that they form a hexagon. Vertices of the hexagons are $p_1, \cdots, p_6$. Vertices of the stars are $q_1, \cdots, q_6$. Intersection of the parallels at infinity are $r_1, r_2, r_3$ respectively, @PVAL. Then add a line $\ell_7$ which intersects $q_1, q_2$ and $p_5$.
That, I believe, is a fine incidence data which can not be realized as a configuration in $\Bbb{CP}^2$.
If $q_1, q_2, p_5$ were ever colinear, then the whole construction would be degenerate.
The deal with the previous construction (where $\ell_7$ passed through $r_1, r_2, r_3$ instead) was that it was sometimes realizable, like if the hexagon was regular in which case they lie on the line at infinite, but not generically so in the sense that such configurations would only form a closed set in the moduli space.
 
9:49 PM
is $a|b$ true if $b=0$?
 
its got that 70s sound :)
 
btw, remind me: has the new captain america film been released yet? has anyone seen it?
completely off topic, but just remembered it was scheduled to release at some point of time in 2016
 
10:05 PM
help me on math please
i cant do this
im going to fail
 
the video is not available @ForeverMozart
 
it must be blocked in your country
its a link to a song
fire in the hole and nothing left to burn
thats how I feel
 
yeah may be
 
10:28 PM
whoa
lines
 
lines are nice
 
No high-level theorems, such as those you prove on day four of algebraic topology, and use to calculate fucking anything ever.
What a basketcase.
 
lol
"I do not want any high-level theorems like Mayer-Vietoris or Seifert-Van Kampen or deformation retracts or \pi_1(S1) or removing points or using covers or other tricks people try to impress me with." Person's a bit narcissistic - what they don't understand is that these aren't "tricks to impress them" but genuine ways one can and do prove things.
 
@Obliv does there exist a c such that 0=ac?
@Pallas I don't understand the N column in that graphic, the directions seem to imply the normal vector is (0,0,1) identically. In which case the integral is (4+7-3+8)/4=4.
 
are there statements that hold for sets generally but not for prepositions?
 
10:40 PM
X is a set
prepositions are words like in, on, of, over right?
 
i mean like statements sorry
i meant proposition, not preposition
 
@arctictern I wanted to use that reasoning but doesn't that mean $a = \frac{0}{0}$?
 
@Obliv no, it means 0=a*0
 
for example, de morgan's laws hold general in the case of propositional logic as well as in set theory
 
@MikeMiller I agree; after reading the question and especially that paragraph I am irritated to the bones. Ugh.
 
10:45 PM
@arctictern how do you know to divide by 4?
 
each of those little squares has area 1/4
 
I was going to write something about how they should edit out the screed lest more people be unwilling to respond but decided it wasn't worht it
 
oh i see
makes sense
thanks
In Greene's theorem, puu.sh/opQbh/45c5e3a5ee.png this problem has two curves C1 and C2, and i know $\partial D = C_1- C_2$, but how would i actually apply Greene's theorem here?
 
0
Q: Laurent series for $z^{2} e^{1/z}$ at $z = \infty$

Jessy CatI just found the Laurent series for $z^{2}e^{1/z}$ for $z = 0$, and now I need to find it at $z = \infty$. (for $z=0$, it was $\displaystyle \sum_{n=0}^{\infty}\frac{z^{2-n}}{n!}$, by the way). I'm not sure how to approach this problem for $z = \infty$, however... I came across one method invo...

 
Is it just 12 - -3 = 15?
becase the areas deocmpose?
 
10:50 PM
@Pallas the LHS of green's would be X-12, the RHS would be -3(area rectangle - area circle)
 
@arctictern so they are asking me to find the area of the rectangle, and they gave me the circle and the whole area
C = C1 - C2
so I need to find C1
then the whole thing is -3 = C1 - C2
 
@MikeMiller I wrote it down, maybe in a harsher tone, for you.
 
-3 + 12 = 9, so then in know $\int \int_{D_1} F . dr$ = 9
Ok so I have $\int\int_D -3 dA = \int \int D_1 (dF2/dx - dF1/dy)dA - 12$
is this correct?
 
Wow, nice fourth comment.
 
ok, I think I got this
I got 124 pi - 168
 
11:01 PM
Someone should mention that that the correct version of "men don't read" should be "people don't read garbage".
 
Can anyone explain this question? math.stackexchange.com/q/996823/177844
I'm not sure if my reasoning for it is correct and I don't understand the one given as the answer
 
@Paradox101 what don't you understand about it
 
@MikeMiller I was not aware there was such a stereotype.
 
@arctictern i think it's not an automorphism. Because if we take the first case assuming that $x \in H$ then that would mean that $\phi(x)=\psi(x)$ and since $\psi(x)$ is in $H$ (given that it's an automorphism of $H$) that would imply that the co-domain of $\phi(x)$ is $H$ and hence it's not an automorphism on $G$. Is this reasoning correct or completely wrong?
 
11:08 PM
no
 
Is there a shortcut for computing the surface integral of the vortex?
I tried to do $\int \int \frac{-2x^2 + 2y^2}{(x^2 + y^2)^2} dx dy$
 
@Paradox101 Consider the function f(x)=x for real numbers. When x is positive, f(x) is positive, therefore I conclude the codomain of f(x) is positive numbers, hence f(x) is not a bijection. Is this argument valid?
 
I think this is a bad idea
i thought i could do this. i dont think i can
i cant do this
 
@AkivaWeinberger So, what're you upto?
 
@arctictern no we can't make a general statement about the co-domain if just one element happens to be positive.
 
11:11 PM
i use the potential function right
that's the trick
the potential function
 
@Pallas I'm guessing the vortex F is conservative, so its curl is zero, so the double integral in Green's theorem is zero, so the two boundary integrals are equal, right?
 
but i have no starting points :(
yes, it's conservative because it's a simple closed curve
the double integral is zero f the vortex field or of the curve?
 
@Paradox101 so just because phi() sends elements of H to elements of H, doesn't mean phi() doesn't more generally send elements of G to elements of G. In fact phi() is a bijection. It permutes elements of H amongst themselves, and elements of G-H amongst themselves.
@Pallas what?
write down Green's theorem for that domain. you get the difference of two boundary integrals on one side, and zero on the other.
 
im so confused. ok, so i have \int F.dr for C = \int F.dr C1 - \int F.dr C2.
 
@Pallas yes
 
11:15 PM
the left side should be 2 pi
i think
 
It's unknown-2pi (and you're trying to prove unknown=2pi, as per the directions)
 
2 pi is the outer curve without the inner circle, right?
 
@arctictern so in this case i should use the general method by proving that $\phi$ is a homomorphism and then a bijection? Is it an autmorphism then?
 
@Paradox101 no, you're trying to prove phi is not a homomorphism
@Pallas 2pi is the inner circle, unknown is the outer curve
 
@arctictern then shouldn't it be unknown - 2pi because \int C = \int C1 - \int C2, and C2 is our inner circle
 
11:17 PM
@arctictern but when i tried to do that it comes out to be a homomorphism
 
@Pallas yes (notice I edited my comment)
@Paradox101 no it doesn't
 
@arctictern Then I argue that the unknown = 0 because it is conservative?
so \intC1 = 0
 
@Pallas you argue the double integral on the other side of Green's theorem is zero, because the integrand is curl(F) dot normal, and curl(F) is zero since F is conservative.
 
oh ok
@arctictern wouldnt this end up proving that C1 is 2 pi?
i thought i wanted to prove that the area - the circle = 2pi
 
@Pallas yes
@Pallas read the problem. it explicitly tells you what it wants you to prove.
 
11:20 PM
oh ok
 
@arctictern if I take the first case where i let $a,b \in H$, then $\phi(a)=\psi(a)$ and $\phi(b)=\psi(b)$, then $\phi(ab)=\psi(ab)=\psi(a) \psi(b)$ (as $\psi$ is an automorphism), similarly the second case also shows $\phi$ to be a homomorphism. What am I doing wrong?
 
so \int C F.dr is the outer area including the circle?
 
@Paradox101 what do you mean by the second case? show your work on the second case.
@Pallas it's the path integral around the outer boundary
\int\int_D would be the double integral over the region bounded by the outer curve and inner circle
 
ok
thanks
 
@arctictern for second case where $c,d \not \in H$ $\phi(c)=c$ and $\phi(d)=d$, then $\phi(cd)=cd=\phi(c) \phi(d)$
 
11:24 PM
@Paradox101 what makes you say phi(cd)=cd ? are you assuming cd is also not in H?
as a matter of fact, every element of H is a product of two elements not in H
this is a critical fact used in both answers, and stated explicitly in the one
 
@arctictern yes i'm assuming cd is not in H
 
(BTW your there are cases you aren't considering, like when c is in H but d isn't.)
@Paradox101 Consider any G and proper H, let c be any element not in H and consider d=c^-1. The obviously cd is in H. More generally, if c is any element not in H, and h is in H, then d=(c^-1)h is not in H, and cd=h is in H.
 
How would I do this? I said that F1 = -x and F2 = -y, so F = <-x, -y>
I tried to do green'es theorem but got \int \int -2 dx dy
 
so you already did part (a)?
 
no, im doing part a
i'm suppose to use green'es theorem for part a right?
 
11:30 PM
you're not using Green's theorem in part (a), you're doing that in part (b) because that's when you're actually enclosing a region with a boundary. the curve in part (a) doesn't enclose anything, it's a line segment.
part (a) you just compute directly
 
ohh ok
i didn't get the right answer
i did 1/2 \int_{x1}^{x2} -y dx + \int_{y1}^{y2} x dy
this results in 1/2 (-y(x2 - x1) + x (y2 - y1)]
 
you need to parametrize the line segment with respect to (say) t first
(what you wrote makes no sense, at least to me)
 
@arctictern yes you're right i didn't think of considering those. So if i want to disprove homomorphism then for the second case if i define the product of $cd=h$ and state that if $\phi(cd)=cd=h \in H$ which is not possible is ths enough to prove that it's not a homomorphism?
 
@arctictern i dont understand, i thought i could split the integrals into integrating with respect to x and then integrating with respesct to y
 
@Pallas you need to write x and y as functions of a common variable in order to actually evaluate those integrals
you can't treat x or y as constants with respect to each other
 
11:34 PM
ok, but i dont think im given a relation between x and y
 
so $x=(x_2-x_1)t+x_1$ and $y=(y_2-y_1)t+y_1$, where $t$ ranges from $0$ to $1$
no you're not, which is why you need to parametrize x and y wrt (say) t
 
oh ok, i see what you are saying
 
IOW (x,y) at time t is (x1,y1) plus t times the displacement vector (x2,y2)-(x1,y1)
 
then do i integrate with respect to t?
 
yes
 
11:36 PM
so $1\2 \int_0^1 - (y2 - y1)t + y1 + (x2- x1)t + x1 dt$
 
need dollar signs
keep in mind dx=(x2-x1)dt and dy=(y2-y1)dt
 
do i split the integrals?
like do the dy integral first then do the dx integral?
 
You should get $$\frac{1}{2}\int_0^1 -(y_1+\Delta yt)\Delta x+(x_1+\Delta xt)\Delta y ~dt $$
notice $-\Delta y\cdot t\cdot \Delta x$ and $\Delta x\cdot t\cdot \Delta y$ will cancel
 
where are you geting \Delta from?
 
leaving $-y_1\Delta x+x_1\Delta y=-y_1(x_2-x_1)+x_1(y_2-y_1)=x_1y_2-y_1x_2$ in the integrand
@Pallas $\Delta u=u_2-u_1$. ever seen that notation?
 
11:41 PM
oh ok
 
I must leave to go lecture now
 
if i want to disprove homomorphism then for the second case if i define the product of $cd=h$ and state that if $\phi(cd)=cd=h \in H$ which is not possible is ths enough to prove that it's not a homomorphism? @arctictern
 
ok thank you for your help
 
@Paradox101 why is it not possible?
what's not possible is for phi(h) to be h for all h in H, since this contradicts psi() being not the identity automorphism
actually you might as well just pick a h for which psi(h) is not h
kbye
 
@arctictern oh so that's why it's not a homomorphism becauseit contradicts psi() being not the identity automorphism?
 
11:45 PM
read the answers
 
oh ok. thank you for all your help!
 
does anyone understand the point of this?
i know greene's theorem needed for part (b)
i don't understand how to justify
 
@BalarkaSen Packing, then. About to get in a car that gets to an airport that…
 

« first day (2086 days earlier)      last day (2937 days later) »