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10:01 PM
I'll surely not pass the examen
@meow-mix What about $A\times B\text{ countable}\implies A,B \text{ countable}$?
 
If I am asked what kind of modern technology am I going to take with me if I ever get stranded on an isolated island somewhere near the south with no sign of advanced civilization nearby, I am going to take an electric flyswatter (or rather, a mosquitoswatter).
 
guys, whats the best way of solving an rational inequality such as $\frac{(x+2)(x+1)}{(x+4)(x-4)} > 0$
 
@BalarkaSen, there probably won't be mosquitoes
 
@NaCl apply the "Reverse" cantor's diagonal
i.e., show that you can arrange element of $A \times B$ into a diagonal, with length and width countable; that is, $A$ and $B$ are countable
 
Isolated island = not much food for mosquitoes. There'd need to be a significant animal population and a source of fresh water
 
10:09 PM
Well if theres no source of fresh water you won't be around long either.
 
Isolated as in isolated from human civilization I meant, I guess.
 
@PVal, you can get fresh water by desalinating salt water
 
guys please
 
Assuming you have some stuff. In this case, you'd just need a small plastic sheet
Oh sorry @Sylent. Let's see
 
Because I know theres a method where you can use the table of positive and negative however that seems rather tedious
 
10:11 PM
@NaCl well between every countable set is a bijection to $\mathbb{N}$
 
@Sylent, that will be positive $\iff$ both the numerator and denominator have the same sign
I think that's the easiest way to do it unfortunately
 
@PVAL Death from dehydration and/or starvation is fine. Death from a million mosquito bites is not.
 
It's not too bad.
 
@PVAL I'm in Texas.
 
@BalarkaSen i would not want to die by any of those methods
 
10:12 PM
@Mike Where?
 
@KajHansen alright thanks
 
@Kaj I'm not convinced theres a way to effectively desalinate water by hand.
 
Dallas. Just the airport though.
 
Both numerator and denominator are monic quadratics @sylent, and you also have the zeros given to you already. Because they're monic and hence upward-pointing, both are negative only in the interval $\text{first zero} \leq x \leq \text{second zero}$.
 
Where are you headed?
 
10:13 PM
This is the only airport I've seen that's too cheap to offer free WiFi.
Home. I was visiting family in nyc.
 
just watch Bear Grylls I guess
 
I bet its still better then flying through ORD
ORD is terrible
 
@PVAL-inactive, dig a hole, fill with salt water, put a cut-in-half coconut shell concave-up inside, cover hole with plastic sheet, put a small amount of pebbles / sand on top to get plastic sheet to form a cone of sorts with vertex inside coconut shell
Salt water evaporates, condenses on plastic sheet, and drips down into coconut shell where it collects as fresh water.
 
maybe I'll dehydrate before making that work tho
 
I'be never been or passes through Chicago somehow.
 
10:16 PM
<-- Just stopped by to tell Balarka, as usual, to go to sleep.
 
Hi @Ted
 
hahaha
 
So with about ten thousand of those you'd get a nice cool glass.
Seems reasonable
 
@PVAL Are you originally from the same state you did undergrad in?
 
Rehi @MikeM, hi @PVAL, @Kaj ..
 
10:17 PM
@KajHansen what makes quadratics monic and non-monic?
 
@PVAL-inactive, I've seen this done on discovery channel before. It takes about a day to get a full glass IIRC. Better than nothing.
 
Funny listening to @meow tell people "we're not going to do your homework." :)
 
@Mike Ya but I'm from the part of the state that wants to separate from your part.
 
Assuming you're near the equator and the sun is beaming down. If you have enough plastic sheeting....
 
@PVAL: You mean the farmers in the valley?
 
10:18 PM
@PVAL I did my undergrad in that half so it's ok.
As if the farmers want to separate when they get so much from us.
 
They want all the water. Trump promised them, so I saw thousands of Trump signs when I drove up the 5 and to/from Yosemite.
 
Sad!
 
I grew up even norther than your college, @MikeM.
 
Good thing you weren't in Georgia pre-election @Ted. Especially in the semi-rural part of GA where I live
 
(Well, some would debate whether I ever grew up. Grew short. Grew some? ...)
@Kaj: Well, true, but the twit you voted for made things worse. :P Sorry, I can't stand the guy.
 
10:20 PM
grew old
 
The farmers own the California government. I thought it was interesting watching silicon valleyers call for california to separate from their union. The federal government won't ever (regardless of whose in charger) reach the level of corruption and incompetence found in state.
 
@KajHansen if you wouldnt mind answering
 
Democrats here have a supermajority in both houses. So the Trump votes didn't mean much.
@PVAL The tech industry hosts some of the dumbest people in the state.
 
We've returned to politics. Bad us.
 
Bad us or bad US?
 
10:21 PM
@Balarka: You didn't comment on my pun ... you just made the obvious remark. :D
Yes @Alessandro
 
Both parties in california are owned by the agriculture industry. They are only "liberal" because it pleases the majority of the state.
 
Not that Europe's any better, @Alessandro. :( The world is ....
 
You mean to say, ....ed
But yes.
 
spherical
 
takes away @Balarka's red pen
 
10:22 PM
I know @Ted, we had this conversation before
 
Kind of insane when your government pushes stricter and stricter regulations for water for individuals when you use nearly all of it for agriculture anyways.
 
I don't like him that much either @Ted. But I think the best thing for the country in the long run will be to have more choices as opposed to fewer so we can finally put an end to this insane "lesser of two evils" two-party politics. Also, Trump won GA by over 5 points. I didn't feel like my vote would've made much of a difference regardless :/
 
@PVAL-inactive I'm aware. The bicameral supermajority is still helpful, for instance to force RA unionization through.
 
That's how I always felt voting in every state I've lived, @Kaj. Just in two of the states I'm on the "right" side (for me).
@Alessandro: I can barely keep track of the math you're learning, let alone our political discussions :D
 
California officials make the case that if Blue f***ing Diamond had a poor harvest it would "ruin the economy". What a joke.
 
10:24 PM
What's Blue Diamond @PVAL-inactive?
 
they make almonds
 
I tried to avoid those to be honest because I don't know nearly enough about politics
 
Meh it's not as bad as it seems. What's done is done, we shouldn't mortify ourselves over this and move on with our lives, our happiness is worth much more than that.
 
I'd comment on some of the politics but unfortunately I don't know much about the US politics, which means I shouldn't.
 
@Kaj: Unless the additional parties acquire serious leverage in the senate and house, they're never going to make a difference at the presidential level. Just more evils.
 
I adore almonds. But it takes thousands of gallons of water to produce a can of almonds. I have no idea how much it takes to produce a liter of almond milk. Sigh.
 
the only third party that's done anything smart is socialist alternative, which got someone on seattle city council instead of running for president
 
I generally agree @Ted. I think additional parties should put serious focus first on state legislatures, then national congress, and only then the presidency
 
The additional party leaders are completely incompetent. They have no idea how to enact their agenda.
 
We concur, @Kaj. First time ever? :D
 
10:26 PM
of course they're all Trots but if my alternative is R or D...
 
@Ted This word only reminds me of "Catch me if you can"
 
All of the "alternative" candidates (Sanders, Stein, Paul,Johnson) made it completely clear they had no idea (technically speaking) what to do to enact their agenda.
 
Not necessarily @Ted. I'm sure we're both dismayed at the election results
 
I suspect there was something once a few years ago, too, @Kaj ...
@Astyx: quel mot?
 
Is $\Bbb{CP}^2$ almost parallelizable, aka is it after you remove a point? I would assume not.
 
10:29 PM
Hell no.
 
@Ted "concur"
 
Why not?
 
"run with"? @Astyx
 
@MikeMiller No its the euler number 1 disk bundle over S^2
 
@PVAL-inactive I still don't know why that's not prallelizable.
I would generally assume I need to delete 3 disks to frame it but I can't prove that.
 
10:30 PM
Because of the Whitney sum formula
 
got it.
 
@Ted Have you seen the movie ?
 
Stop being so enigmatic, @Astyx. What movie?
 
So I can't just delete a bunch of discs. That was obvious.
That's special to K3 of course. Silly me.
 
@Ted "Catch me if you can" I'm not being enigmatic, there's just a big missunderstanding I think :p
 
10:32 PM
and thats probably seeing the same homological invariant
c_1(K3)=0
 
Oh, I have seen the movie, but that was so long ago I'd forgotten about it.
Rehi DogAteMy
 
@PVAL-inactive Yeah.
 
@TedShifrin Have you seen anything by Cocteau?
 
@Ted Haha nevermind
 
I watched Hellraiser 2 last night. It didn't live up to the original but it was ok.
 
10:34 PM
I've read several of his plays, @Balarka, back in college days.
 
Ah.
 
I might still have 'em here (en français).
 
@TedShifrin, what inspired you to study French so intensely as an undergrad?
 
I actually was quite fluent even in high school, @Kaj. I just love languages. NOW I seriously wish I'd studied Spanish a few years.
 
Because French is the best anguage ever invented, silly question really ...
 
10:35 PM
Does there exist any kind of set $A$ such that $\vert\mathbb{P} (A)\vert=\vert\mathbb{N}\vert$?
 
@Astyx: quelle bêtise :P
ugh @NaCl
You mean $\mathscr P(A)$?
 
@Ted J'espère que mon seconde degré se fait comprendre :p
 
uh yeah
 
I learned a ton about my own native language studying French
 
@NaCl: Nope.
 
10:36 PM
aaah, it's \mathscr, okay :D
 
As Gary J said we're all going to die in the next 4 billion years so whatever.
 
@TedShifrin Is there a simple proof for that?
 
@Kaj: Learning any foreign language is about the only way Americans learn grammar. :P
4
@NaCl: Well, could $A$ be finite?
 
Obviously not, as $\mathscr{P}(A)$ would have to be finite as well
 
OK, and what's the smallest infinite set you can have?
 
10:38 PM
I don't know. Is it really $\mathbb{N}$?
 
What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
 
@Astyx: Oui, tu communiques très bien :)
bilingual
 
@TedShifrin Is that some kind of axiom? (that $\mathbb{N}$ is the smallest possible infinite set)
 
clever
 
What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
 
10:39 PM
trilingual
 
very clever
 
biglot, triglot?
 
polyglot
 
smacks @Astyx
 
what do you call someone who speaks one language?
 
10:39 PM
American
 
monoglot
 
(well, I just met a Mexican who speaks only Spanish ... and ten words of English)
 
Quite the cynic @Ted ;)
 
correctly so, @Kaj
Where's @Alessandro? He should answer NaCl's question.
 
That was certainly the intended punchline.
 
10:40 PM
@MikeMiller The films you speak of often seem to have slasher connotations. Just saying from going through the plot.
I have never quite grokked/stomached the body horror genre.
 
@NaCl: Yes, $\Bbb N$ is the smallest size infinite set you can have.
Whether that's equivalent to a ZF axiom, I dunno.
 
Hellraiser isn't a slasher, which denotes a different and usually more tedious kind of horror entirely. It is horror.
 
If not, I demand a proof :D
 
Speaking of horror, have you seen Almodovar's movie "The Skin I Live In"? Generally, I love all his movies.
 
I see.
 
10:41 PM
I generally don't like horror, but I liked The Thing.
 
John Carpenter is a genius.
 
Which question @Ted? I missed it
 
@NaCl: It's just basic cardinal arithmetic.
@Alessandro: How do you "prove" that $\Bbb N$ is the smallest infinite set you can have?
 
@TedShifrin Even that needs proofs
 
Santa Sangre is a more artfully done horror movie, though, if artistic integrity is a priority.
 
10:42 PM
(up to bijection)
 
Well you define the cardinality of N as the smallest infinite cardinal
 
@TedShifrin What do you mean by smallest?
 
@NaCl I think this is only because any subset of $\Bbb N$ is either countable or finite
 
Address your answers to @NaCl, not me :P
 
I think I like anything where there are a lot of intentional gaps and ambiguities with the way the plot is presented.
 
10:43 PM
@MikeMiller He directed "They Live", yeah?
 
@MikeM: The only sets with smaller cardinality (not in bijection therewith) are finite.
 
@Astyx okay
 
Yes, @Astyx is right. That's the correct way to say it.
If I have an infinite subset of $\Bbb N$, it is itself in bijection with $\Bbb N$.
<--- goes back into retirement
 
I don't know if you need countable choice to prove that such things are in bijection with N. But if you do that's fine since countable choice is true.
 
So I can't find a set such that $\vert\mathscr{P}(A)\vert=\vert\mathbb{N}\vert$
 
10:46 PM
I'm pretty sure that can be done in ZF alone @Mike
 
I just use well-ordering of $\Bbb N$, @MikeM. That's just equivalent to PMI, not Choice. :)
@NaCl: That's what I said :D
<--- hates foundational mathematics
 
@TedShifrin No, you misunderstand me. It is not obvious to me that every set $X$ whose subsets are either equinumerous with $X$ or finite has to be in bijection with $\Bbb N$.
 
@TedShifrin take any set $A$. Does $\vert A\vert\leq\vert\mathscr{P}(A)\vert$ hold?
 
Yes
 
<--- hates foundational mathematics, too
 
10:47 PM
@Ted How do you prove well-ordering knowing that induction is false?
 
Does $<$ hold?
 
@NaCl, power set always produces a larger set
 
@Mike I guess you could inject $\Bbb N$ in it (or the other way around) and get a countable subset
 
kk
 
Wait ... @MikeM — I was speaking just of an infinite subset of $\Bbb N$. But if your set is equinumerous with $\Bbb N$, use the bijection.
 
10:48 PM
Yes, @Ted, but I don't know that it is equinumerous with $\Bbb N$.
 
@PVAL-inactive Huh?
 
@Astyx How?
 
Oh, so it could be larger, @MikeM? So, yes, to choose a countable subset I need choice (or some weak version, as you said).
 
@Ted I was pretending to be an ultra-finitist.
 
Basically you want to say something like "pick an element. Pick another element. ... " Seems like you need countable choice to do that.
 
10:49 PM
OF course, what does it mean to say "larger"? Doesn't that mean that there's a non-surjective injection of $\Bbb N$? UGH.
No, that's not right, either.
 
That's why I asked what you meant by what you meant by 'smallest'.
 
@MikeM: Yes, to choose a sequence in an arbitrary infinite set is "countable choice."
 
@Pval, have you seen those Wildberger videos?
 
QUIT :P
 
So I suspect there's a model of ZF in which there are 'almost infinite' sets that aren't N.
 
10:50 PM
@Kaj No I don't think Wildberger is an ultra-finitist. He's just a hack.
 
@MikeMiller Imagine there is a smaller infinite set $A$ than $\Bbb N$ then you can inject it in $\Bbb N$. The image of your injection would be an infinite subset of $\Bbb N$, thus countable. The corestriciton of your injection to the image will be a bijection. Thus $A$ is countable
 
I wonder if some people talk about my videos in the same tone of reverence ... :P
 
@PVAL-inactive, I tend to agree, but he does have some "mainstream" papers published in legit journals on representation theory / Lie Groups IIRC
 
@Astyx I think you misunderstand the question. The question is as follows. Let $X$ be a set such that every subset of $X$ is either finite or in bijection with $X$. Is $X$ in bijection with $\Bbb N$? And the answer is probably no, not without a small axiom.
 
@Mike Without choice this gets tricky, there can be uncountable sets with no countable subsets (amorphous sets for example)
 
10:51 PM
@KajHansen Hack, not crank.
 
@Alessandro WTF?
 
I wasn't aware there was a difference @Mike ?
 
@KajHansen Just because a paper is a mainstream journal doesn't make it okay.
 
Hack means you're hot garbage. Crank means you're crazy.
 
lol
 
10:52 PM
amorphous sets are infinite sets that can't be written as disjoint union of $2$ infinite subsets
 
@MikeMiller Do you not have that $X$ can be injected in $\Bbb N$ or the other way around ?
 
they don't exist with choice
 
Ok, I'm done now. The last task which is left is literally unsolvable for me
 
I just found that on Wikipedia, @Alessandro.
 
Thank you all
 
10:52 PM
I withdraw from this discussion. I believe in AC.
Don't ever bring this up again, @NaCl.
 
@Astyx Nope.
 
@TedShifrin I didn't ask for it :(
 
Actually, you asked for proof.
 
My bad then. Good to know anyway, thanks :)
 
But I didn't ask to make the proof beforehand
 
10:54 PM
@Astyx I'm being a little disingenuous. You need the axiom of "countable choice", which is so obviously true every reasonable mathematician accepts it as an axiom.
 
Yes, I got that. If you have it my statement holds, right ?
 
Yes.
 
cardinality without choice is weird anyway, you can't even say that the cardinality of every set is an aleph number
 
And from there my X bijects with N.
 
But how would you order cardinalities then ? What would it even mean to have a "smallest infinity" ?
What Alessandro just said partially answers my question I guess
 
10:56 PM
You don't order xardinalities and ther wwouldjt be one. I was going with Ted's definition of smallest infinite set.
 
Ah right
 
Someone should read the appendix in Kelley's General Topology on ordinals and cardinals.
 
Nah.
 
Not you or I, but someone.
 
Someone probably already has
 
11:00 PM
I have too much other shit to read.
 
Should I read some analysis or some topology tomorrow ?
 
@PVAL Did you see the GT paper with many authors yesterday?
 
I can't make my mind up
 
@TedShifrin you misquoted me; i said "we're not going to do your homework if you put no effort into attempting it"
 
I'm sort of surprised they bothered. It seems like the sort of thing I would ask an MSc student or good undergrad to work out.
 
11:03 PM
part of that quote is cut out
 
Anyway I gotta go to bed
Have good days/nights everyone !
 
hello everyone
@Astyx, good night =)
 
hey @heather
 
Hey there
 
and now i have to go. geesh.
 
11:15 PM
haha
 
Max
11:38 PM
Is it true that If I have a positive definite square matrix (not necessarily symmetric) then all eigenvalues are non-zero?
 

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