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7:00 PM
@evinda Because the one thing we a priori know about the median is its position in the sorted array.
 
@DanielFischer I actually have done 2 semester in computer science and next year did Python and Java. However I'm not sure where to start with algorithms and data structures. Will be doing these next year in my CS courses but would like to get ahead
 
Hi all! (^_^)/
 
Hi pal
 
@Sabಠ_ಠ Practice, I'd say. You can also look at wikipedia under sorting algorithms and the like.
 
Thanks :
:)
 
7:03 PM
Get the textbook to.
 
I got CLRS
It's a huge book lol :D
 
Huy
@Sabಠ_ಠ: If you're not familiar with it yet, you can read up Landau notation and compute the runtime of certain algorithms using the Landau notation. Searching and sorting algorithms are usually where you'd start.
 
@Huy I learned some sorting algorithms as part of my course, but only the algorithm. Never coded it or even do it in pseudo code
Apparently my second year will be full of theory, algorithms and data strustures
 
Huy
@Sabಠ_ಠ: I've never heard of some course doing that. But then, you have lots of algorithms and can code them and compute runtime and compare.
 
computerphile have a couple of good videos that will show you the idea behind some sorting algorithms, but they dont have any code associated with it. If you want code, just add the language before the algorithm name and a good few results will pop up on google
 
7:08 PM
@DanielFischer How can we choose the pivot in a way that guarantees that it is not too far away from the median?
 
@evinda As far as I recall, googling "median of medians" should turn up a number of relevant hits. It's probably also mentioned (with link) on the wikipedia page on quicksort.
 
The thing is I can learn the algorithms, how do I know which one is efficient? How do I run it to know?
 
@AlecTeal It's just as @TedShifrin said :)
 
Huy
@Sabಠ_ಠ: Have you never run a program before? Also, as I said, look up Landau notation and try to compute the runtime of your algorithms using that notation. It will be helpful to find out which algorithm is efficient and which is not so much.
 
@Huy I coded a lot, from hello world to a full checkers game
but I'm not sure how to check efficiency
 
Huy
7:19 PM
@Sabಠ_ಠ: And did you afterwards compile and run it?
 
I'll go read up Landau now now
Yep
I used an IDE to run it
Eclipse
I see Big O notation
I happen to have briefly done them in my intro classes
log n
n log n
but not how they work or why they exist
will do them next yr
but I wanna know it before
 
Do any of you guys understand why Euclidean geometry = orthogonal projection, Affine geometry = Parallel projection, Projective geometry = central projection, ??? geometry = stereographic projection?
 
Huy
@Sabಠ_ಠ: I learnt how they work in my class about algorithms and complexity. I'm sure you'll find a lot of information on the internet about it with lots of examples.
 
Yep. I guess I'll go watch MIT lecture videos on Algorithms
 
@DanielFischer So, do you mean this function:

function medianOfMedians(list, left, right)
numMedians = ceil((right - left) / 5)
for i from 0 to numMedians
// get the median of the five-element subgroup
subLeft := left + i*5
subRight := subLeft + 4
if (subRight > right) subRight := right
medianIdx := selectIdx(list, subLeft, subRight, (subRight - subLeft) / 2)
swap list[left+i] and list[medianIdx]
return selectIdx(list, left, left + numMedians - 1, numMedians / 2)
What does the function selectIdx do? @DanielFischer
 
Huy
7:24 PM
@Sabಠ_ಠ: I never watched them, but if you think you will benefit from watching them, go ahead =)
 
@evinda I don't know, look at the code.
 
@DanielFischer It must be a function but there isn't a code... :/
 
@evinda Where did you get the above code from?
 
@DanielFischer From wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_of_medians
 
Are you in university/college, @Balarka?
 
7:36 PM
@evinda Okay, selectIdx(A,l,r,k) returns the index of the $k$-th smallest element of A in the index range from l to r. See also
 
Nope @Khallil
 
Ah, so do you refer to your teachers as professors, @BalarkaSen?
1 hour ago, by Balarka Sen
I know, @bolbteppa, I get smacks everyday by my professor while doing that.
 
Nope @Khallil
I am not in any uni, but I do visit one.
Quite frequently.
 
Ah, very cool!
 
There's a guy who knows a lot about topology and works on hyperbolic geometry in there. I visit him often, and that's whom I am referring to as professor.
 
7:40 PM
@DanielFischer A ok... When we have this array:
 
Ah! You'll love it when you get to university, @Balarka! ^_^
 
will this command be executed: medianIndx=SelectIdx(A,0,4,2), or am I wrong? @DanielFischer
 
He'll smack me once or twice a day for either saying "gah, galois theory is better than this stuff" or "bunch of handwaving and thus it follows" or "algebraic topology is stupid" or similiar.
 
@evinda Yes, should be that. Of course for arrays of that size it's somewhat pointless.
 
Hi! I'm in trouble with a very basic Discrete Mathematics concept about ordered pairs, is there any help?
 
7:43 PM
There is indeed. What's ailing you, @Danish?
(I can't promise that I have your answers, but any discussion can only be good discussion!)
 
@DanielFischer Yes, right... But why don't we check the value of the element of the last position?
 
well is this formula correct "no of ordered pairs from X to Y = 2 ^ |X||Y|"
I mean total no of ordered pair like if |X| = m and |Y| = n , then total no of ordered pairs from X to Y are 2^(m.n)
 
@evinda Because the algorithm is written to search the array in groups of five, and your array has six elements. So the first group gets five elements, and the second group consists of a single element. You could slightly modify the function to use groups of seven, then you'd just have a single group there.
 
@DanielFischer Does this algorithm only work for arrays with dimension a multiple of $5$ or does it work for arrays of any dimension?
 
this is troubling me much my assignment is being due due to this concept, please if you know about this concept then discuss with me
 
7:50 PM
@evinda Any size. The last group may have fewer than five elements, in this case, only one element.
 
8:04 PM
@Mike I think the extra 3 hours have passed.
 
@BalarkaSen You're clockwatching now?
 
@PedroTamaroff You're chatwatching now?
 
@KarlKronenfeld When I become a mod, I will have to.
I'm making the habit.
 
@PedroTamaroff don't let it go to your head!
 
I'm gonna vote for Pedro.
 
8:05 PM
so do I get help now ?
 
@DanielFischer A ok... If we have the array I sent you, does the algorithm return the following:

SelectIdx(list,0,0,0)?
Or am I wrong?
 
@DanishALI You're counting the number of pairs (x,y), where x belongs to X and y belongs to Y, correct?
 
@PedroTamaroff How's life?
 
@DanishALI I don't understand your question.
@BalarkaSen Life's a bitch.
 
@PedroTamaroff You have to compete with that one guy who's promoting his 2.4k rep.
 
8:07 PM
Thomas?
I've never heard of him.
 
@KarlKronenfeld He's good. Also @DanielFischer.
 
Okey @KarlKronenfeld and @PedroTamaroff Let me try to ask again in simple:

Well If someone asks you , If A={1,2,3} and B={1,2} then how many binary relations are there from A to B
 
Daniel would make a great mod.
 
Ah, completely different question.
 
now is this a clear question or if not please help me ask the right thing by asking more quesiton
 
8:09 PM
Makes sense now @DanishALI
 
@DanishALI A relation from $A$ to $B$ is just a subset of $A\times B$.
So...?
 
Your formula is correct.
lolwut
 
@evinda The first call is selectIdx(list,0,4,2), the second call is selectIdx(list,5,5,0).
 
Oh no wait just pick two elements from A \times B.
 
all pair I can make from A to B are {(1,1), (1,2), (2,1), (2,2), (3,1), (3,2)} and these are total of 6 pairs and if I use formula then then it's 2^(6) = 64
and 6 != 64
 
8:12 PM
So $2^{|A||B|}$
 
@DanielFischer Yes, I found the same.. Then we will have this array, right?
 
Your formula is correct @DanishALI. That 6! = 2^6 is entirely a coincidence.
 
6! = 720 bro
 
Bleh
I can't count.
 
6 != 64 in words "6 does not equal 64"
 
8:13 PM
Who even arithmetics nowadays?
=P
 
@BalarkaSen What.
 
OMG sorry by 6! I didn't mean 6factorial actually I were using symbol != meaning not equal to (sorry I used programming symbol in here)
 
@KarlKronenfeld LEL OK
 
@N3buchadnezzar Yeah. I mean, it's not my primary language, but i've made some python stuff before.
 
@evinda At which stage?
 
8:14 PM
@AlexanderGruber!
 
@DanishALI Binary relations are subsets of the set of all those pairs.
 
@Pedro Did you try the problem I gave you?
 
@DanielFischer After the two swaps, or am I wrong?
 
So while there are only 6 pairs, there are indeed 64 binary relations.
 
@BalarkaSen It was something about connected stuff.
But I forgot the question specifically.
 
8:15 PM
Find a connected space such that every nondegenerate closed subset is disconnected.
 
nondegenerate?
Oh, probably nonempty and not the space.
 
yes @Karl
 
@BalarkaSen That's so pathological the world would freak out more about it more than Ebola. I'd rather not.
2
 
OH! what a holy crap, my brain is / was whirling I was considering AxB as totoal number of binary relations possible but I guess now even ((1,1), (1,2)) is also one single binary relation correct ?
 
@evinda First, the median of the first five elements is put in the first slot of the array. That would swap 7 and 15. Then the median of the last group is put in the second slot, then swapping 19 and 15. So the array would then be 7,19,3,1,20,15.
 
8:17 PM
@PedroTamaroff It's a cute problem.
 
@DanishALI yes
 
huff.... was it worth 2 hours mess!!! okey well thanks @KarlKronenfeld and other guys, thankyou very much :)
 
I am pathological topologizing these days. Solenoids everywhere.
@PedroTamaroff OK, then, find out a connected space such that removing a single point makes it totally disconnected.
 
@BalarkaSen That's easy.
 
OK?
 
8:19 PM
Yep.
 
What's your solution?
 
Hats start in four hours. I hope you're all excited.
 
@MikeMiller
 
@MikeMiller YAY. And primaries tomorrow!
 
$\{0,1\}$ with the indiscrete topology, @BalarkaSen ;-)
 
8:20 PM
You'd better have the right hat, @Pedro, or you lose my vote.
 
@DanielFischer Bah.
 
@BalarkaSen I told you it was easy.
Or maybe you want the space to be infinite?
 
I want something nontrivial feels uneasy
@PedroTamaroff OK, sure.
I have an example in mind that is very nontrivial and very pathological.
 
@DanielFischer Isn't it medianIdx=select(A,0,4,2)=3 ?
 
@DanielFischer Past couple days it was easy to get rep: just lower my standards a bit. But today it looks like I'd have to lower 'em a lot. Tragic!
 
8:22 PM
@BalarkaSen Start with a totally disconnected space. Add a single point, and augment the topology in a fitting way.
 
@DanielFischer Let's say, how about a subspace of R^2 with the subspace topology from R^2?
That must do the trick.
 
@evinda No, the 2 is the position, it asks for the third-smallest element. Recall that array indices are $0$-based.
 
Ugh.... The questions being posted today are mind-numbingly easy and boring and generally show a lack of effort...
 
OK, so the problem is find a connected topological space $X \subset \Bbb R^2$ with the subspace topology such that removal of a single point makes it totally disconnected.
That, @Pedro, should be slightly nontrivial.
 
@BalarkaSen No, that's easy.
 
8:25 PM
Welcome to MSE, @teadawg1337
 
So does selectIdx returns the index of the $l+floor((r-l)/2)$-th smallest element of A in the index range from l to r? @DanielFischer
 
@MikeMiller It's depressing :(
 
@PedroTamaroff OK, what's your solution?
 
@robjohn the proof to the question I posted today (skip my language)
 
@BalarkaSen The Gelfand space.
 
8:27 PM
@PedroTamaroff Not funny.
Do it.
 
I never know which hat goes wIth my outfit @Mike
 
We'll have to see which goes best with the blue square in a few hours.
 
@Mike The 3 hours are over
Hell...
 
@evinda selectIdx(A,left,right,k) returns the index of the element that would be in A[left+k] if the subarry A[left],...,A[right] were sorted in-place.
 
@DanielFischer Did you get an answer to that $C(\beta X)$ question?
 
8:29 PM
@Pedro: Have you decided what to pay for my vote? :D
 
@TedShifrin I can scan a full solution of your CA final.
 
@DanielFischer So, in our case selectIdx(A,left,right,k) returns the element of the $((subRight - subLeft) / 2)^{th}$ position?
 
Lol ... Including the last question?
 
As a future moderator, @DanielFischer, you have to help the poor MSE chatroom users by intimidating the other users to unignore them.
 
@BalarkaSen How is the Gelfand space not an example?
Remove the singular point at infinity. Done.
 
8:31 PM
What is the Gelfand space?
You're bluffing.
 
@MikeMiller As if I had time to think even for five minutes about it. Somehow, I get pinged every other second today.
 
Ah. Want to try to tackle it?
 
don't blame me, DanielF ... See, no ping.
 
Oh... My.... This person spelled infinity like Nissan's subsidiary/division........
 
@TedShifrin I take $\Bbb P^1$ is $\Bbb CP^1$?
 
8:33 PM
Probably your suggestion of "those subalgebras assoc'd to closed subsets of $\beta X$ not intersecting with $X$" is correct.
 
Yes, @Pedro.
 
@TedShifrin I don't know about automorphisms of that.
=(
 
@PedroTamaroff Mobius transforms.
$PSL(2,\Bbb C)$.
 
@evinda It returns the index at which the (right-left)/2+1-th smallest element of that subarray is. Think in extreme cases, a subarray of length $1$. You call selectIdx(A,left,left,0).
 
Nod ... Now prove it @Pedro ...
 
8:34 PM
@TedShifrin But how do you define holomorphic mappings in that?
 
use $f(1/z)$ in a nbhd of $\infty$.
 
The right answer is "define a Riemann surface". The wrong, but correct, answer is $f$ is meromorphic on $\Bbb C$ and $f(1/z)$ is meromorphic, too.
 
yup, time to learn about complex manifolds :D
 
@MikeMiller Might be that there are more, these are all ideals of $C(\beta X)$, I'm not sure whether there might be a subalgebra that's not an ideal.
 
@TedShifrin First I'd have to learn about real manifolds.
 
8:37 PM
OK, since Pedro doesn't want to do it, here's an explicit construction : Take a cantor set. Now join your components of the cantor set with strings, joined at some point. Now make those strings cantor sets in turn. Join the components of each of those cantor sets by strings meeting at the same point as before. Continue ad infinitum.
 
@DanielFischer And $7$ is the third smallest element of the first subarray, right? :)
 
good idea!
 
@TedShifrin I don't know what $\Bbb CP^1$ looks like. =P
 
@evinda Right. 1,3,7,15,20 if we sort the first five elements.
 
Well, maybe the first step is to classify ideals with the given property.
 
8:37 PM
A sphere @Pedro
 
@PedroTamaroff Convince yourself that $\Bbb{RP}^1$ is the circle. Then using that, convince yourself that $\Bbb{CP}^1$ is the 2-sphere.
Once you're done with that, convince yourself that $\Bbb{HP}^1$ is the 4-sphere.
 
serves you right for saying my course was too trivial, @Pedro :D
 
@TedShifrin I didn't say that!
I never use the word trivial.
 
No, I think that was me.
 
He doesn't know the defn of projective space ....
 
8:39 PM
@MikeMiller By the way, the subalgebra of constant functions.
 
RP^1 is just class of lines going through the origin. You can do that by drawing a circle and identifying antipodes of it.
 
it is in that algebra chapter, @Pedro :)
 
Oh, boo to that. I'm now convinced there's not going to be a good classification.
So classifying ideals might still be fun.
 
@DanielFischer And when we have i=1, do we get medianIdx=selectIdx(A,5,5,0)=5 ?
 
@evinda Yes.
 
8:41 PM
I think Mike intends to ignore me for life.
snif
 
@TedShifrin No, I don't.
 
For now, it's the Riemann sphere :)
 
It'd darn complicated, projective spaces over arbitrary fields.
 
@DanielFischer Then, will we have this the array?
 
Never had a feel for 'em.
 
8:44 PM
@TedShifrin But how do you define holomorphic stuff in those?
 
@MikeMiller You might consider to stop torturing Balarka now.
 
@DanielFischer I sent a wrong picture
@DanielFischer Sorry!!!!
 
I said that earlier. You use $1/z$ as a chart at $\infty$.@Pedro
 
@DanielFischer I meant this one...
 
I think @Mike enjoyed joining me, @DanielF.
 
8:46 PM
I haven't had him on ignore since quite a few hours ago, @DanielF. He just hasn't said anything worth responding to.
 
[capitalized]so why didn't you tell me earlier, @Mike?[/capitalized]
 
@MikeMiller please try to be nicer, I hate it when people don't confirm stuff! It helps people work out where they stand!
 
Grmph.
 
I didn't feel a need to.
 
@TedShifrin I know that about $S^2$, but in general?
 
8:47 PM
@evinda Something like that. I don't remember the exact order of the original, and it might be that selectIdx modifies the subarray, then things could look differently after the two medians of the groups.
 
@PedroTamaroff In general you need to define what a complex manifold is.
 
Oh, OK.
 
in general, you cover projective $n$ space with $n+1$ charts.
 
@DanielFischer We have this order 15,7,3,1,20,19
Don't we only swap 15 with 17 and then 15 with 19?
 
@PedroTamaroff Wonderful red eyes :P in your new profile pic
 
8:48 PM
Salut, méchant @Hippa
 
Pedro puts up his real face as his avatar. Jasper returns the next day. Coincidence?
 
@evinda It depends on the implementation of selectIdx.
 
@TedShifrin Bonsoir
 
@MikeMiller LEL
He is in love with @Pedro
 
@DanielFischer How should it be implemented?
 
8:49 PM
@TedShifrin How do you show that any matrix of the canonic base is a LC of two orthogonal matrices ?
(Linear Combination)
 
I dunno, @Hippa
 
@TedShifrin I've asked someone I knew and he didn't know either :/
 
I would not have guessed it's remotely true.
 
@MikeMiller Do you know ?
 
Nope.
 
8:51 PM
I'll ask on MSE then
 
I would vote false, but I haven't thought about it yet.
 
@MikeMiller Is it true that for a connected space $X$, an open cover $U$ of it and group $G$ acting properly discontinuously and freely on $X$ then there is a SES of Cech fundamental groups $1 \to \check{\pi_1}(X, U) \to \check{\pi_1}(X/G, p(U)) \to G \to 1$ where $p : X \to X/G$ is the projection?
 
I don't know what a Cech fundamental group is.
 
I proved it, but not sure if my proof is correct.
 
@Hippa: how do you do a diagonal $3\times 3$ matrix?
 
8:53 PM
@TedShifrin What do you mean by that ?
I put coefficients on the diagonal :3 but I believe that's not what you're looking for
 
What do you not understand?
 
"Do a diagonal matrix" what do you mean by "do" ?
 
Write it as the LC you requested?
 
@MikeMiller Cech fundamental group of a space X with open cover U is the fundamental group of the Cech nerve of U.
 
@evinda That depends on the requirements and whatnot. It might be a requirement that it doesn't modify the original array. Or it may be okay if it modifies it. If the implementation that modifies the array is more efficient, and modification is okay, one would use that. If not, one would implement it differently.
 
8:54 PM
OK. Dunno.
 
@TedShifrin Oh you mean a $3x3$ matrix of the canonical base ?
 
@MikeMiller Any possibility you are interested in seeing the proof I did and ceching it?
 
Your sequence might not even be true for regular fundamental groups. Now I'm wondering if there's a topological group with nontrivial $\pi_2$.
 
Yes, just the diagonal case ... With distinct entries
 
@MikeMiller It is true.
 
8:55 PM
It's true if $\pi_2(G) = 0$.
 
No @Mike. That's a standard result.
 
I don't agree.
 
@TedShifrin It's a standard result for Lie groups.
But it uses Morse theory. I'm asking more generally, when we don't have that tool.
 
@DanielFischer The exercise I am looking at asks the following:
Describe an algorithm with time complexity $O(m)$ that, given a set $M$ with $m$ numbers and a positive integer $p \leq m$, returns the $p$ closest numbers to the median element of the set $M$.

So, how should we implement it? :/
 
Oh.
 
8:56 PM
@TedShifrin Well I'm not even sure :/ since "simple" orthogonal matrices do not work
 
It's pretty easy to prove that 1 --> pi_1(X) --> pi_1(X/G) --> G --> 1 holds for group G acting by homeomorphisms on X
 
Still true for top group, pretty sure.
 
0
Q: Orthogonal decomposition matrices of the canonical base

HippalectryonLet $M_{i,j}$ be a matrice of the canonical base of size $n>1$. What is the least number of orthogonal matrices required so that $M$ can be expressed as a linear combination of those ?

 
Probably is, but I can't imagine it's easy.
 
@MikeMiller X \to X/G is a covering map
so 1 --> pi_1(X) --> pi_1(X/G) is exact
 
8:57 PM
@Hippa, your language isn't good English.
 
It's not true, @Ted. Because $\Bbb{CP}^\infty$ is a loop space, a theorem of Milnor says it is homotopy equivalent to a topological group, which ofc has nontrivial $\pi_2$.
 
@TedShifrin That's a typo >.> if you're referring to the title
 
In your question. Just say $n\times n$ matrix and skip canonical basis.
 
now consider the map pi_1(X/G, x_0) \to G by taking a loop based at x_0 and lifting it to X with base point y_0 and finding a g such that g(x_0) = x_1 where x_1 is the endpoint of the lifted path
 
@TedShifrin It has to be canonical
 
8:58 PM
this is surjective and has kernel \pi_1(X)
@MikeMiller did you even see what i wrote above?
 
@BalarkaSen It's only a covering map if $G$ is discrete, in which case $\pi_2(G) = 0$ is trivial. I'm asking about other situations.
 
That's understood because we say matrix, not linear map.
 
oh
discrete meaning?
 
@TedShifrin Uh ? By canonical I mean $1$ at position $i,j$ and $0$ elsewhere
 
it's a covering map if G acts properly disc and freely on X not?
 
8:59 PM
Carries the discrete topology. The situation you're thinking of has that.
 

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