The Bridge

fbueckert

20:00

@OrigamiRobot You have Radiant Star Emeralds.

You're the 1%! :P

Krazer

@fbueckert lol

fbueckert

Seriously, though, that's a good standard to define against.

OrigamiRobot

Which I bought with gold that I spent time picking up.

fbueckert

If you own or can afford Radiant Star Emeralds, then you're in the top end, and it's just a matter of time to get higher.

Krazer

Maybe they should make a softcore more with increased drop rates, no access to the AH, and certain items/recipes unavailable?

OrigamiRobot

20:02

Also, I bought them when they were cheap from duping. You can't compare that to the current price.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot You got lucky and bought them when they were cheap.

I didn't have the gold at that point to afford even a single gem.

OrigamiRobot

1 min ago, by OrigamiRobot

Which I bought with gold that I spent time picking up.

fbueckert

So if that doesn't count as luck, I don't know what does.

@OrigamiRobot Yeah, and I bought gear beforehand.

With the gold I spent time picking up.

OrigamiRobot

SO now we see how luck in timing isnt the same as luck in drops?

fbueckert

That's the point I'm trying to make; it doesn't take skill to get to the top end.

It takes luck, pure and simple. Nothing else gets you there.

@OrigamiRobot I didn't define luck as solely luck in drops.

OrigamiRobot

20:05

@fbueckert The only reason to be at the top end is because that the only place you get top end gear!

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Which is the whole point of the game!

Why are you so insistent on ensuring that luck play such a critical part in it?

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert Because without luck, there is no point to being at the top.

The whole game breaks down.

SaintWacko

I have 220 dwarves; 56 have one or more legendary skills

Krazer

Whatever happened to having fun?

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot How?

Invader Skoodge

20:07

I am trying to reconcile why I find Diablo 3 to not be fun.

To me, fun drives everything.

OrigamiRobot

2 mins ago, by OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert The only reason to be at the top end is because that the only place you get top end gear!

fbueckert

How does the whole game break down if everyone's at the top?

@OrigamiRobot So what does it matter if everyone's there?

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert I don't even know how to respond to this.

fbueckert

Then everyone can get top end gear!

Krazer

It's like everyone winning the lottery at the same time.

fbueckert

20:08

@OrigamiRobot The only reason people at the top make money is because they're the have's.

Who sell to the have not's.

Invader Skoodge

I was trying to talk about Diablo 3 yesterday. The farming in Diablo 3 is kind of boring. I'm trying to think about what made it better in Diablo 2.

OrigamiRobot

And if there are no have nots?

Invader Skoodge

In Diablo 2, each farming session was pretty quick. You killed Baal, and then you were done.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Then everyone's got everything, and the AH dies.

Invader Skoodge

You got to the point where you could potentially see rewards really quick, and then you started over.

In Diablo 3, optimal farming is pretty much just playing through the whole act.

OrigamiRobot

20:09

@fbueckert And you're sitting there with your top level gear and you do what with it?

fbueckert

@InvaderSkoodge That was exactly what they didn't want with D3; hence valor stacks.

Invader Skoodge

If I spent 5 hours farming Baal and got bored, I could go farm Pindleskin or Nihlathak or the Countess.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Vendor it.

Invader Skoodge

And mix it up.

In Diablo 3, if I spend 5 hours farming Act 1 (and not getting gear for Act 2), I have to just keep farming Act 1 anyway.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert So why even play the game?

fbueckert

20:09

And the game is done once you have everything.

@OrigamiRobot Fun?

Enjoyment?

Invader Skoodge

@fbueckert The point I'm trying to make is that this sounded good in theory, but it didn't actually pan out very well in practice.

user2334

I apparently broke Stack Exchange. I'm sorry.

Invader Skoodge

It makes farming more boring in D3, because it winds up being more samey in D3 than it was in D2.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert What fun is facerolling an entire act with no rewards?

Invader Skoodge

@OrigamiRobot It's fun once as a "fuck you" to when the act used to be tough, but that's pretty much it.

fbueckert

20:11

@OrigamiRobot I dunno; what fun is facerolling an act right now?

Krazer

@MarkTrapp Please elaborate.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot To listen to the same stilted voice acting for the 5000th time, duh!

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert The chance to get items

fbueckert

The reason they added Paragon levels was progression.

user2334

@Krazer I got my Programmers account deleted, and apparently I'm the first former moderator to request deletion, and apparently that breaks things

fbueckert

20:12

@OrigamiRobot To do what with? Sell to those who need it for billions of gold?

Invader Skoodge

@MarkTrapp You hate the site that much?

fbueckert

When the gold you make off of it already helps you nothing at all.

user2334

@InvaderSkoodge Yes. So much that I like SciFi more! Actually was due to reasons and there's no content there I want to maintain control over

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert Listen. Being at the top is no fun. That's why the ladder worked in D2. Everyone had to occasionally start over.

Tim Stone

@InvaderSkoodge Yeah, I think this is what makes it a little less addictive for me. If I'm going to do it, I feel compelled to set aside a large chunk of time, otherwise what's the point? In D2 I could fit in runs whenever I had free time, whether it was fifteen minutes or three hours.

fbueckert

20:13

@OrigamiRobot So why are you insisting on denying the top to everyone but those that get lucky?

If it's not fun, why does it matter?

Invader Skoodge

@fbueckert I think the point is that progressing is fun. Being done progressing is boring.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert Because when everyone is at the top, there is no fun anymore.

For anyone.

@InvaderSkoodge This

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot So artificially restricting the people at the top somehow makes it fun for them?

@InvaderSkoodge Yeah. Progression is fun.

user2334

@InvaderSkoodge Being done progressing is okay if the content is stellar. That's… not the case in D3.

fbueckert

But look at WoW raids; why do fully geared guilds continue to run the same thing over and over?

Invader Skoodge

20:15

@MarkTrapp I've never really gotten to too many end-games in my gaming days. Not a big MMO guy. I haven't experienced a fun end-game yet.

user2334

@fbueckert They don't. They take breaks. You only run to gear up. When you're done gearing up and everyone has what they want, they stop until the next content patch

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert So why do you want a system that makes everyone stop progressing?

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot The system is already in place.

Invader Skoodge

Even Diablo 2's end-game was pretty bad.

fbueckert

It's just that it's completely random if you actually make progress or not.

OrigamiRobot

20:16

@fbueckert And you want to put in an express lane.

Invader Skoodge

That's why the ladder resets were fun, though.

@fbueckert I dislike this.

OrigamiRobot

@InvaderSkoodge Right. Ladder resets were the best.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot No, I want to add something to work towards.

Invader Skoodge

If they reset the D3 ladder I would probably play again.

user2334

@InvaderSkoodge I think a key part of a successful end game experience is frequent content updates or a way to make your own fun. Diablo 3 wanted to have its cake and eat it too: wanted control over fun making, but didn't want to release the frequent (read: monthly) updates to sustain it

fbueckert

20:17

If we implement the crafting limitation, then we're just stuck at that as the starting point for progression.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert I really dont think you are taking into account the volume of play and how easy it would be to craft up to max gear.

SaintWacko

@InvaderSkoodge Same here. I enjoy playing the game and improving my character, but then it just gets boring

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot So balance it so it takes oddles of cash and materials. I don't care.

The point is, I want to be able to GET there, without needing luck to see me through.

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert So how is that different than needing oodles of cash now?

Invader Skoodge

@MarkTrapp Yeah D3 hasn't introduced any new content, and it took only a week of dedicated play to get to the end game.

That's a terrible combination.

tiddy

20:19

Or they could just Fallout/Skyrim it and release huge expansions while also promoting an amazing modding community

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Minute power increases. Find a bracer with 6% crit. It allows you to upgrade your current bracers by 0.25% or something.

Invader Skoodge

@fbueckert If it also cost like a million gold this would be workable.

You should have to make choices about what you upgrade, though.

fbueckert

@InvaderSkoodge That's what I've been saying since the beginning.

OrigamiRobot

I don't know how many different ways I can say making everyone top tier makes the game boring.

fbueckert

Make sure the gold sink is there.

Invader Skoodge

20:20

@fbueckert The AH and gem combining are already really good gold sinks.

OrigamiRobot

Diablo 3 needs a ladder. It needs resets.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot I don't know how many ways I can say that depending on luck does not a good system make.

Invader Skoodge

The game needs an item sink.

Krazer

Why not have it to they can strip out the attribute and stick it on another item, like they did with the original Guild Wars?

Invader Skoodge

The item sink could be a ladder system, or it could be something else. I'm not the designer.

OrigamiRobot

20:21

@fbueckert I am not arguing that it needs to be 100% luck based. I am saying that it needs to be some amount luck based.

fbueckert

@InvaderSkoodge Yeah.

Invader Skoodge

A ladder system is kind of the apocalypse of item sinks, though.

Wipqozn

It's that @Krazer guy. I don't see you around here as much anymore.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot What you've been saying, though, is that the top-end progression is completely 100% luck-based.

By limiting crafting to X%, we just move the masses to that point, without altering the top-end at all.

Invader Skoodge

I really hope that GW2 has a not-shitty end-game.

I want to find a game that I can just play forever.

So I can stop buying new games all the damn time.

user2334

20:22

@InvaderSkoodge I've heard otherwise, unless you really, really love WvW

user2334

Minecraft problem solved amirite

Invader Skoodge

@MarkTrapp I played WoW for a week and couldn't get into it.

Oh you didn't say WoW you said WvW.

user2334

yeah, world v world :P

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert I am not advocating that limitation anymore. I am saying the whole system is game ruining.

Invader Skoodge

I've heard bad things about WvW.

fbueckert

20:23

@OrigamiRobot So what would you suggest, then?

Something that's not 100% luck-based.

Because that's how it currently works.

Invader Skoodge

Also isn't WvW just kind of like an endless capture points mode?

Wipqozn

@InvaderSkoodge If I've actually played it I'd tell you.

Invader Skoodge

The way it was described seems like gigantic-scale TF2.

OrigamiRobot

Just because I don't have a suggestion doesn't mean this suggestions is a good one.

Krazer

@Wipqozn O hai @Wipqozn tortoise d00d. I missed you, too.

user2334

20:24

@InvaderSkoodge Yeah, with destructible terrain. I don't know if TF2 has destructible terrain.

Invader Skoodge

At least GW2 seems to be putting out content patches.

Wipqozn

@FAE would be the best person to ask. I took a break from GW2 for a bit to play some other games / focus more on school. I was also waiting for them to fix a few things that were bugging me (like monster respawn times)\

@InvaderSkoodge That's what they are planning to do. Release content patches on a regular basis.

user2334

That Diablo III takes months to release bug fix patches is insane. This isn't 2001. People expect frequent and instant gratification

Ullallulloo

@MarkTrapp It does not.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp They also complain at any server downtime.

Invader Skoodge

20:26

You would have thought that Blizzard, the makers of the End-Game Simulator (WoW), would have been able to figure out something good for D3.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot Right, which is another thing: always online is a social contract. I give up being able to play offline and agree to deal with your server problems because you tacitly promise all the trappings of having something always online: FREQUENT UPDATES. ah;odhqhdhqdsa

OrigamiRobot

@InvaderSkoodge The Infernal Machine and Monster Power are steps in the right direction.

Invader Skoodge

@OrigamiRobot Oh yeah I guess Infernal Machine is kind of new content-ish.

user2334

@InvaderSkoodge Yeah, it's really amazing that they didn't do WoW-style content patches for Diablo 3. It's looking more and more like it's going to be an old-school Blizzard expansion style delivery, which means—if HotS is anything to go by—seeing new content in 2-3 years

Wipqozn

@InvaderSkoodge: From what I understand most of the end-game is focused on:
A) Getting legendary/exotic items
B) WvW / PvP
C) Dungeons (all dungeons have four possible layouts, and due to level scaling you can do them a any level)
D) Dynamic Events (the late game regions have a lot of giant boss ones, which are essentiually raids)
E) Exploration (there's an achievement for attaining 100% world completion. Also, you get items for doing so)
F) Content Patches

Invader Skoodge

20:29

@MarkTrapp I can't believe HotS isn't out yet.

user2334

@InvaderSkoodge March 2013! Only a year late by Blizzard's standards! WoL came out in 2010

Invader Skoodge

@Wipqozn C, D, and E sound interesting to me.

user2334

And they still got one more expansion to go

Invader Skoodge

I'm not really too into the PvP stuff any more.

It took me a very long time to realize that I'm a terrible competitive gamer.

user2334

I've heard things about dungeons sucking because there's no penalty for dying, so the strategy is keep throwing bodies at things. And that dynamic events don't have a sense of accomplishment after a while, because they don't really change anything

OrigamiRobot

20:33

@InvaderSkoodge It's great because the keys and organs and even the ring itself are account bound.

user2334

Exploration isn't really an end game draw. Play long enough in any game and you'll explore everything. Any game that has chieves has an exploration achievement

user2334

So you got: progression, WvW, and content patches IMO

OrigamiRobot

@InvaderSkoodge Yes, I can see how PvP would be good for D3, but it's not for me.

SaintWacko

I am building a road from my access bridge to the edge of the map

made entirely of slade

Invader Skoodge

@OrigamiRobot I used to do PvP a lot in D2.

SaintWacko

20:35

slade bars, no less

Invader Skoodge

I wouldn't want to do that if I played now, though.

@MarkTrapp WvW sounds better in theory than other PvP modes I've heard of in similar games.

I don't see how WvW is a long-term draw, though.

I mean, I used to be way into TF2, but there were only so many times I could capture points.

OrigamiRobot

@InvaderSkoodge I hope they implement an actual system for LLDing. That way it creates a market for some of the lower level items.

RedRiderX

@MarkTrapp Thank you, I now feel well informed.

user2334

I aim to ~~Hitler~~ please

Invader Skoodge

@OrigamiRobot LLD?

Oh Low Level Duel?

OrigamiRobot

20:42

@InvaderSkoodge Low Level Duel. Duels with level 30 chars.

Invader Skoodge

Yeah that is another issue in D3. Anything below iLvl 61 is trash.

Giving lower level items a use would be a good idea.

OrigamiRobot

Yea, that's one of the reasons runewords helped. It made you actually pay attention to the whites that dropped.

Invader Skoodge

Anyone who cares to answer: What games exist that currently have a sustainable end game?

badp

@InvaderSkoodge as in?

Invader Skoodge

@badp A game that doesn't devolve into stupidity once you get to the "end".

badp

20:46

@InvaderSkoodge What kind of stupidity?

Invader Skoodge

@badp It's kind of a subjective question.

pixel

@InvaderSkoodge anything with those horrible letters in it... MMORPG

badp

I'm sorry, I'm pulling out a Gnomeslice and jumping in the middle of a discussion

Invader Skoodge

@pixel I doubt every MMORPG has a good end game.

pixel

You have more good end games per game than any other genre

s/good/viable/

badp

20:47

That said... if it's the ending as opposed to any other part pre- and post- ending, well, it's got to have something unique about it. Whether that thing is stupid or not to you, only you can tell

Invader Skoodge

@badp I mean something that keeps you playing for a long time. Nothing plot-related, really.

pixel

and again, I can say "every" because subjectively the ending of each MMORPG that is still running has something good about it from the point of view of those that continue to play it

badp

@InvaderSkoodge Oh. eh. Once the game runs out of new things to throw at your face what can it do really?

user2334

@badp Release newer new things

Invader Skoodge

@pixel That's an interesting point.

All logic seems to point at content patches being fairly mandatory for a good end game.

pixel

20:49

yeah

badp

but then when will you move on and start a new game already?

pixel

dynamically generated doesn't make a good end game in most circumstances

James

@pixel Counter point though is that if there are not enough people active to keep the game from ceasing to exist, then its end-game content was not good enough.

Invader Skoodge

So they pretty much just make new end games periodically.

pixel

incidentally, I'm not playing WoW anymore

badp

20:50

We could've gotten ten more Borderlands DLCs or Borderlands 2. From what I've seen so far Borderlands 2 is the better choice

Invader Skoodge

@pixel Did they introduce dynamic content recently?

pixel

no

badp

(I haven't even hit level 50 in BL1 anyway...)

James

@InvaderSkoodge Isn't that the definition of what WoW has done? Basically every year or two redo what the end game is?

pixel

they stick with defined content in patches

they did dynamic with Diablo though of course

Invader Skoodge

20:50

@James I guess so, but I have never really followed MMORPGs.

I really wanted to like TSW but I kind of didn't.

Now I really want to like GW2 but we'll see this weekend if I do or not.

James

@InvaderSkoodge I think they are a very neat idea that is just almost impossible to do.. I hope that the next ones to do it well are ESO

pixel

TSW didn't have enough to it

TSW very much suffered from the StarWars issue

James

@InvaderSkoodge I really liked TSW but I never made it to the end game, I still want to go back and play more though.. And GW2 is also good from what I haev played, but again I am still noobing it around :)

pixel

"Good" levelling, "Bad" end game

Invader Skoodge

@James I'm surprised I'm interested in this. When they first announced it I laughed my ass off, but the video they released recently looked pretty awesome.

pixel

20:51

you can't release an MMO without an end game, no matter how confident you are of the rest of your content

Invader Skoodge

@pixel They claimed the end game started right at the beginning.

I thought the quest system in TSW was all sorts of terrible, though.

pixel

it doesn't matter what they claim

I completed all the quests

there was nothing after that

James

@InvaderSkoodge Same here, I was like Ugh,you cant MMO TES.. its just.. wrong.. But yeah, the game did look pretty good and I have to say if they do scale up the end game content simply based upon how many people show up, the people behind TES Skyrim atleast had a great scaling difficulty game.

pixel

= no end game

Invader Skoodge

@pixel That's pretty terrible.

James

20:53

And that is where you get to Daily Quests

pixel

A lot of people keep telling me that before I give up on MMOs I have to try Rift

user2334

@badp If your game makes it, you create a team whose sole responsibility is servicing said game with new content. Then you transition the original team to work on something new. WoW pulled it off: pretty much no one on the original game works on it; they're all working on Project Titan or something else

James

Which to me are a load of horse crap

pixel

@James daily quests is not end game content

James

@pixel Like I said, horse crap

badp

20:53

@MarkTrapp "If you're WoW" is a pretty big "if"

pixel

I reckon the only MMO that will replace WoW is Titan

badp

The only other such example I can think of is TF2, and it's not nearly as old as WoW

pixel

but a lot of people keep saying Rift

I see Rift as another EVE

badp

and quite the different beast too.

pixel

slow and steady but never really taking off

Invader Skoodge

20:54

@pixel I've heard of Rift but the extent of my knowledge of it is that there is a game named Rift.

James

@pixel I have very little hope for Titan given Blizzards release of Starcraft 2, Diablo 3 and Panda Express.

user2334

@badp You don't need to be WoW to create a second in-house team. Pretty much every non-indie game house has multiple teams working on things simultaneously. "Post-launch MMO" is just another project/game

pixel

@InvaderSkoodge same

@James same

badp

@MarkTrapp Okay, but here we're talking about servicing the old game for years after release. WoW is from 2004, aka 8 years old. TF2 is from 2007, aka 5 years old. Both still get updates.

pixel

basically, an MMO developer has as long as it takes for the first 100 people to hit level cap to fill the game out with an end game

any longer and people just leave, promises become irrelevent at that point

badp

20:55

What other games that are as old get updated still?

pixel

hell

badp

(I'm sure there's more than just these two, I just can't name any myself)

James

@pixel Which pretty much means you have to have end-game on release day. Because people will hit max level within 2-3 days (or so has the history been).

pixel

WoW's release cycle sped up

user2334

@badp Those are the two big names, but take EverQuest and EQII: EQ is going on 14 years now, still gets regular updates. EQII is slightly older than WoW, same thing. I think Lineage II still gets updates too, and that's from 2004

pixel

20:56

8 year old game getting a faster content release cycle ftw

Invader Skoodge

@badp Holy crap WoW is older than YouTube.

pixel

@James exactly

James

I point to age of conan for how to do it wrong.. Their initial content was huge and detailed .. but as soon as yo uhit like level 30, it was vacant and bare.

badp

@pixel I'm really surprised the developers aren't yet at odds with their engine, which must be really screaming at the seams or something

pixel

@James this is what I call the starwars effect

as in SW TOR

Invader Skoodge

20:57

So SWTOR isn't worth playing then?

pixel

good story, bad end game

same deal as TSW

badp

@MarkTrapp Okay, that makes... five games? That's still a pretty damn big "if."

pixel

you'll enjoy it until max level, then it gets boring

James

@pixel Haha, I thought Conan was the first big failure in that regard.. Maybe it was City of Heroes though now that I think about it.

Invader Skoodge

Does anyone know the restrictions on the F2P SWTOR?

pixel

20:58

@James AOC is older than SWTOR afaik, I was busy doing other things when AOC came out though

badp

Other companies in the same situation just prefer to turn their game in $60/y payments, see Call of Battlefield Gray Shooter Black Weapons Elite 2012

pixel

But basically, that effect can be observed in every MMO since WoW was released, with the exception of Rift pretty much

@InvaderSkoodge Its a level restriction afaik

James

@badp cough Madden NFL??? cough

pixel

like level 20 or something

badp

@James and every sports sim game ever, obviously.

user2334

20:59

@badp Also LOTRO, DDO… but there are only a handful of companies making MMOs to begin with. The ones that survive years and years and years did so because they release regular content. If you don't want to do that, prepare to have it collapse or go F2P then collapse.

Invader Skoodge

@pixel Ok so not playing that then.

pixel

@badp The WoW engine gets minor updates every now and again, but the engine is severely broken and limited

It's very CPU heavy with very little GPU optimisation

meaning that it requires a very high spec pc to play with all the options on full

badp

I don't really mean the engine client side as I mean it server side

Transcript for