The Bridge

tzenes

15:04

@Oak I love this quote "I don't like it but I can live with it."

Ivo Flipse

morning @tzenes :)

tzenes

morning Ivo

Ivo Flipse

Python has been torturing me again today :P

tzenes

it does that

Ivo Flipse

had a calculation to calculate the center of the pressure for the entire plate for each frame

now I had to adapt it to do so for each separate paw

tzenes

15:07

nice

Ivo Flipse

but I don't like the result

tzenes

oh?

Ivo Flipse

it might just be due to me messing up the plotting, but the results seem 'strange'

tzenes

let me see

Ivo Flipse

guess I should review all steps before judging it

hang on, first need to create this stupid subplot again :P

hmmm after looking a bit closer, it might just be that dogs truly walk completely different than im used to :P

tzenes

15:11

probably, they're quadrapeds

how do we feel about this question: gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/6690 ?

its very clearly objective, and I don't think he's just looking for a recommendation

on the other hand, its really a question about game engines and design

Ivo Flipse

if the question would be: Are all models created equal? and it asked whether the hitboxes of models are the same, regardless of the way they look. Then I guess it's fine

McKay

But then it's not a single question.

Someone could ask "Are all hitboxes created equal in Quake 17?" That's an objective question.

LessPop_MoreFizz

:144784 "When to use life and live" - easy trick, Live has a V it's a Verb.

McKay

This is a list question where people could answer for each game.

Is there even an answer to his question?

LessPop_MoreFizz

Yes I just scrolled back 3 hours when I came back.

Ivo Flipse

15:17

I don't even understand how to use verbs in Dutch, let alone in English ;P

well I'm actually sure that they are the same regardless of how they look

tzenes

to Ivo's proposed question that has a very simple answer: No, in this one game they are different

Ivo Flipse

so unless there are games where this isn't true

if you adjust the settings of the models in Counter Strike

tzenes

Golden Eye has different hitboxes

Ivo Flipse

I think you see that they're actually just thick squares

tzenes

what's more in dkmode those hit boxes change

Ivo Flipse

15:19

but there's no real way to test this without the engine itself

McKay

So if there are two answers "goldeneye has different hit boxes" and "Perfect dark has different hit boxes" which answer is more correct?

tzenes

I'm not sure

like I said this is a strange question

Ivo Flipse

tzenes

I'm not rabidly opposed to it because it requires a level of understanding and expertise in the games you're playing.

Ivo Flipse

no you directly see why I need interpolation @tzenes :P

tzenes

15:20

@Ivo not really

I think your CoM calculation is just bad

Ivo Flipse

how can I test if models have different sizes of hitboxes?

well so do I

tzenes

let's say you want to test this in halo

You take the Spartan, and I take the Elite

Ivo Flipse

though you have to release that this is projected on the maximal pressures, which aren't necessarily a good way to judge the trajectory

tzenes

we stand next to eachother and shoot with a non-leathal weapon

*realize

just use center of mass, instead of maximal pressure

Ivo Flipse

I'd consider it cheating if certain chars are more difficult to hit, unless they have more armor/health to compensate for this

center of mass would be one point, I need the trajectory

tzenes

15:22

well maybe its a trade off like: easier to hit, but harder to headshot

trajectory is determined over multiple food prints

Ivo Flipse

I just took the maximal pressures to give some reference

tzenes

I can stand in place and have 0 trajectory, but I have a maximal pressure

Ivo Flipse

no, each image you see there is the maximum of a 11*14 matrix over 50 frames

tzenes

ok, but still he could just be putting his paw up and down

Ivo Flipse

and the projected trajectory you see should be the trajectory for each frame

tzenes

15:23

doesn't mean he has trajectory

Ivo Flipse

the paw itself has a trajectory relative to the ground

tzenes

what if that trajectory is down?

x=0, z=0, y=-1

Ivo Flipse

it rotates inwards, outwards, backwards, forwards while having contact with the ground

than I measure more pressure

tzenes

let's back up for a second

why do you want trajectory?

Ivo Flipse

and probably more surface, since the soft tissue of the paw would deform

wait I'll make you another image to explain what I mean

tzenes

15:25

score

this linux/ubuntu thing is really interesting I want to see how the votes are tallying

Ivo Flipse

each image in the previous one is for the same area, but the maximal pressures for each sensor within that area

and this is how the paw moved relative to the ground (9 out 50 frames)

the white line should describe how the center of mass changes WITHIN the paw

tzenes

so again, you just need the Center of Mass for each frame and plot that over multiple frames?

each frame has a center of mass

together those should give trajectory

CoM isn't necessarily maximal pressure

so it should provide a better estimate

though you have to realize the trajectory of a paw should be: forward, backward

Ivo Flipse

I'm trying to plot the dots from the white line over this image right now, to see if it matches better

tzenes

the backward constituting the paw being used to push the animal forward

Ivo Flipse

well I only measure vertically, so I don't have vectors of shear forces

but if a dog walks like a spring, then yes

tzenes

15:39

he should have some spring like behavior

I know humans do

if you look at human foot prints their CoM exhibits this behavior

though a dogs may be less pronounced? I don't know

Ivo Flipse

well that's exactly the point of this study :P to determine how the pressure is distributed under a dog paw while 'normal walking'

than the doctors can use it to diagnose ill dogs or determine whether their treatment was effective

tzenes

well then I'd definitely use CoM

though changes in maximal pressure might also be useful for different things

Ivo Flipse

oh but I'm not going to use the maximal pressures for that, it's just that to create an image like that for the entire roll off

means I need to make 50 images with subplots

or I have to animate them

and well... I haven't come around getting Python to do that for me ;-)

tzenes

you should make gifs!

Ivo Flipse

tzenes

15:43

oh shit, I got paid today

Ivo Flipse

would it store directly into one gif? so just loop and store it as a gif?

oh shit that's bad?!?

tzenes

haha

its awesome is what it is

time to go buy me shit

bbl

Ivo Flipse

have fun ;-)

tzenes

sorry, but consumerism takes presidence

I'll be back in like 20 minutes

Mana

Yay someone asked a game-rec that I don't think should be closed!!! :3333

Ivo Flipse

15:46

lol, the hitbox one?

Mana

No, the new GBA RPG similar to Golden Sun one

Arda Xi

> I'm not looking for a list per se, however I would like to find games that fit the mold of the Golden Sun series.

If you're looking for game s you're looking for a list.

Mana

Yeah, that part stood out to me.

but

IDK, I can't even think of a single game that fits his specs properly

Arda Xi

we cannot afford to accept some and reject other game-recs

we have to either accept all or reject all

Mana

...yeah, you're right.

Ivo Flipse

15:48

indeed, or well it simply needs to be something else than this

plus I hate it when the answer might be no

Downvoter

:145284 I disagree, there could be guidelines as to which ones are ok and which ones aren't

Downvoter

as discussed in length before

Arda Xi

:145289 Then you will get "why was this one closed and this one wasn't?"

Downvoter

(not talking about this particular instance)

Downvoter

:145294 and you could say "because of this and that"

Downvoter

15:50

"this and that" being the guidelines

Downvoter

Few things in life are either black OR white

Downvoter

gray exists

Arda Xi

We have not been able to form guidelines for over 2 months now

Ivo Flipse

I'd rather paint everything black, than having stains on the white @JuanManuel

Arda Xi

if we are unable to define grey we'll need to stick to black and white.

radp

15:51

:145204 I think they'll exist separately

Downvoter

I don't know...

Downvoter

futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Neutral

Ivo Flipse

> They dislike making decisions.

Not really a skill to be proud off :P

Downvoter

lol

Downvoter

i was aiming more to the "I have no strong feelings one way or the other"

Ivo Flipse

15:57

one problem with game-rec is that people tend to upvote what they favor, not what answers the question best

so first you get subjective answers, than even more subjective voting

and the world spins out of control!

Downvoter

jajaja

radp

This site needs a Community Meh mode

Ivo Flipse

what I like most about chat

is that whilst @JuanManuel is a moderator on Gaming, I'm the moderator on this channel ;P

Downvoter

for now

Downvoter

we'll have chat.gaming soon enough

Downvoter

16:01

and then I'll have the last laugh

Ivo Flipse

I know (A), I'll just have to reach 10k rep on gaming

radp

I'd rather stay on chat.mso :/

10k mods get chat mod access?

Downvoter

nope, they can see flags and the like

Ivo Flipse

no, they don't but at least I get moderator tools

Downvoter

just like in the regular site

Ivo Flipse

16:02

though we might have some of those here too yeah

Downvoter

I see flags here

radp

You're the owner, if it changes anything

Downvoter

I see flags from any room

Downvoter

anyway, off to lunch

radp

Then you're just speshul (I take it you have access to the Teacher's Lounge after all)

Downvoter

16:03

bbl, after suspending @Ivo on gaming

Downvoter

muahahaha

Ivo Flipse

lol :P

Downvoter

hehehe

Ivo Flipse

I misclicked

Downvoter

later

tzenes

16:05

:145305 potentially, but I'd like to see which way each community is voting

on the subject of the GBA question I wrote a response as to why I think its not appropriate

radp

:145355 I think Jeff summed it up nicely:

tzenes

yes, but do the linux people want the ubuntu people? do the ubuntu people hate the linux people? I'm curious about their opinions of eachother, which I think would be reflected in the voting

though that second picture is hilarious

radp

I don't think there's hate, but Jeff gave a great point there about the focus each site should have.

Sure, novice Fedora users might be left out in the cold. That's a problem.

tzenes

maybe ubuntu->noviceLinux?

Mana

@Tzenes: our third place requires that user to get 20 rep on meta SO first though

Ivo Flipse

16:08

I think we need a better solution than just creating sub-sites for every topic all the time

this is a perfect example

as is gadgets

radp

:145370 You're replying to me I believe

tzenes

how much rep do you need before you get 100 rep on linked sites?

radp

:145371 I think the real problem is sites are getting created too quickly

Ivo Flipse

we need a community yes, but we don't need to fracture it too far either, because it ruins the experience for those who have to answer

200

Arda Xi

:145375 200

Mana

16:09

No, replying to a comment tzenes made on the GBA question

radp

like on SE 1.0, you don't have the time to track them all

Mana

Oh, wait, that applies to meta SO as well?

Ivo Flipse

you will never have the time @badp

tzenes

@Mana it does

Ivo Flipse

I only have time, because they allow me to work from home :P

Mana

16:10

Never knew. Cool, then.

tzenes

what's more this user already has his 101 on meta

Mana

Oh okay, cool.

tzenes

I'm still torn on this one: gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/6690

radp

:145378 Thanks for that, updated my table on MSO

Mana

Yo guys, friend of mine's wondering: would a question about who wrote the theme song for a video game be in the scope of this site?

radp

16:13

Jonathan Coulton :P

tzenes

@Mana 100%

radp

Anyway, I think it's borderline but on-topic.

Mana

Okay, cool.

tzenes

mana, do you know the game?

I'm kind of curious now

I actually kind of liked this answer: gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/6166/… I'm surprised it wasn't more well received

Mana

Buck Bumble lol. Nothing classic

but on the off-chance that someone might be able to dig it up he's asking here

tzenes

16:18

hahaha

this is an awesome theme song

buckbumble.ytmnd.com

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145422 Because reccomending daggers to anyone playing a rogue before level 50 is bad advice tbqh.

Ivo Flipse

they should level to 80 asap

tzenes

you might notice I don't recommend daggers

LessPop_MoreFizz

Also because you can't Ambush->Cheap Shot, but that's niggling (Edit it!)

tzenes

you have to wait for the energy, but there is no reason you can't

LessPop_MoreFizz

16:22

Umm... Ambush removes stealth.

Cheap Shot requires stealth.

You can't chain openers without Vanishing.

tzenes

oh right he doesn't necessarily have vanish yet

LessPop_MoreFizz

Vanish causes mobs to reset.

so it's not viable for soloing anyway.

and is kind of on a long-ish cooldown and more useful as an escape tool while solo anyway.

tzenes

kidney shot

LessPop_MoreFizz

Vanishing offensively is more of a PVP trick.

tzenes

thats the one I was thinking of

not cheap shot

sorry, I'm rereading through my answer now

LessPop_MoreFizz

16:24

:145472 But yeah, Cheap Shot is the opener of choice while levelling over Ambush anyway once availiable. 4 second stun, and 2 CP's is just too good to pass up. The damage on Ambush just isn't that great all told.

and it requires too many talents to make it less lackluster.

And I /think/ if you've got access to hemo you should have Cheap Shot already.

tzenes

For a rogue that wants to level sub, I'd say its fine

as he'll likely have those talents

I also mentioned that he'll move to Hemo later, and that he'll want swords for it

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145497 Hemo is actually fine with a dagger now. It's before you get Hemo that using a dagger is a Really Bad Idea.

tzenes

Yeah I saw they changed that

I didn't know if it made it viable though

I know for a long time it wasn't

LessPop_MoreFizz

A dagger and Sword of equal ilvl and 'similar' speed, (50% difference) will do identical damage with a Hemo hit.

the problem with Hemo is still that the debuff is worthless and the tree is totally convoluted re: whether you should use Hemo or Backstab.

broken design is broken.

tzenes

one hopes the changes in Cata fix this

LessPop_MoreFizz

16:28

Cata subtlety is the most hilarious clusterfuck

tzenes

did they release the new tech tree after they shorttened it?

LessPop_MoreFizz

You Hemo every 30 seconds to keep up a debuff, weave backstabs when the Hemo debuff is up and sit around waiting for HaT to give you combo points so you can rotate between 4 finishers.

yeah, the new trees are all running on the beta.

tzenes

link?

LessPop_MoreFizz

wowtal.com - most up to date calculator

I like the new Combat a lot.

New Assasination needs to have some point values tweaked to flow better, but it's not bad.

Mana

maaaaaaan, I was totally hoping espais would check out the chat

LessPop_MoreFizz

16:30

Sub is a complete mess

Mana

they seemed pretty cool

LessPop_MoreFizz

(Also, if you're wondering, a couple of the 'indispensible' talents like the range extension on Sap/Blind, and the +Stealth talents got made baseline.)

tzenes

this is worse than I imagined

all this % chance

makes for irregular rotations

this is like doing kitty dps

Ivo Flipse

well from what I saw that the beginning of this expansion, rogues don't have to complain :P

tzenes

and hemo sucks

gross

LessPop_MoreFizz

16:34

Yeah, it's like Cat DPS, but worse, because you have to deal with the nightmare that is Shadow Dance.

Which you can't viably not take because with the new design, you have to put 31 points in a tree before you're allowed to subspec

so no 20/21 or 10/21/10 builds or anything

tzenes

well, its good to see that they decided to make all DK trees viable for tanking and didn't so something stupid like put Vampiric Blood and Bone Shield in the same tree

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145572 Blood is the DK Tank tree in cataclysm.

The other trees do not tank.

and Blood does not DPS anymore.

tzenes

yeah, I think that was my point

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145577 Yeah, they said letting all three tank in Wrath was a mistake.

tzenes

after this long spiel about how "all trees are going to be tank viable," turns out: NOPE, just blood

well I'm glad I don't play WoW anymore

LessPop_MoreFizz

16:39

:145580 Well, all three were for Wrath. And it was kind of a mistake, since, at the end of the day, the community settled on a 'best spec' and the other two became de facto useless for it.

McKay

But I think it was a marginal success, not for raiding, but for heroics, any of them could work.

tzenes

Perhaps things changed in Icecrown but when I was still getting server firsts in ulduar it changed a lot

LessPop_MoreFizz

And it just caused headaches for trying to balance non-tanking things, since you couldn't put tanking skills out of reach of DPS types as well.

Ivo Flipse

anyone has anything that they feel all the SE-moderators should discuss on our secret chat-session tonight?

tzenes

game-rec must die

there can be no larger issue

Ivo Flipse

16:40

and you said you hated wow @tzenes?!?

LessPop_MoreFizz

The only reason the preferred DK spec changed constantly is because the talents kept getting buffed/nerfed.

It's been pretty solidly Blood or GTFO since late Ulduar though.

tzenes

When we did server first in Ulduar I was still running Frost for most of my tanking

I think I did blood on trash nights

@Ivo I do and you're starting to see why

LessPop_MoreFizz

Was this before they made Will of the Necropolis amazing again, or after?

tzenes

It might have been before

what did they change?

LessPop_MoreFizz

They made it useful again. Turned it back into a cheatdeath.

tzenes

16:43

it was like that since 3.0

its 15% off once every 2 minutes

LessPop_MoreFizz

It got nerfed around when Ulduar came out. Was made so it didn't affect damage that brought the DK low, only damage while low, which made it useless against anything that hit worth a damn.

it also didn't have the cooldown before Ulduar.

tzenes

it was a crummy ability, the real strength of blood was pushing your HP to rediculous numbers

till then nerfed the 10% hp bonus

anyway I need to go to work

LessPop_MoreFizz

Without the cooldown (which it doesn't have again), it's an invisible and enormous health bonus.

And I need to go get my Mac so I can watch the Stevenote.

later

5

A: Who wrote this incredible theme-song?

JUSTIN SCHARVONA

the all caps is a nice touch.

Intentional or not.

It reads as Triumphant.

radp

►

radp

17:19

In other news -- for most games, you can alt-tab while they load and they'll still be loading

except you can do other stuff while the throbbers spin

tzenes

:145691 It was. After finding the theme song and replaying it 5 times, I HAD to know who wrote it

I want you to know @LessPop, I have high hopes for you: stackexchange.com/leagues/7/week/gaming/2010-08-30

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145796 hahaha

tzenes

I once said this site is not a success till someone surpasses me

so I'm counting on you

LessPop_MoreFizz

Oh no pressure.

I think I can manage though, I'm a massive repwhore. :)

See: epicadvice.com/users/393/feist

given EA's lower traffic dassabignumber.

tzenes

Oh, bring the wow nerds to gaming.SE

the same way I tried to bring the SC2 nerds

LessPop_MoreFizz

17:31

Will do.

I know I've seen Gnarf and Wikwocket poking around.

tzenes

how much rep do you need to edit a tag wiki?

Downvoter

chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/226/game-recommendations

Downvoter

:)

LessPop_MoreFizz

Steve is hyping the shit out of iOS gaming

tzenes

isn't that his roll?

come up with crazy ideas and evangelize them?

LessPop_MoreFizz

17:35

Well his roll is to hype the shit out of apple in general.

the choice of gaming in particular is interesting.

But the stuff being demo'd is extremely impressive

an Unreal Engine 3 RPG for iPhone coming this fall

tzenes

I've seen the Unreal Engine demo'd before on the iphone

@LessPop gaming.stackexchange.com/tags/world-of-warcraft/info

Ivo Flipse

owh I thought it hadn't started yet, guess I'm too late for Steve's party

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145836 He's still rolling.

:145836 He's unveiled software updates and new iPods. You're just in time for One More Thing.

Ivo Flipse

well turn of anti aliasing and reduce the resolution: voila a SoC can run Crysis

is the iPad getting an update?

link the stream :P

LessPop_MoreFizz

www.apple.com but only if you're in the US, using 10.6 and safari 5

alternately www.macrumors.com

iPad is getting a major software update in november

Printing, wifi streaming of video over network.

tzenes

17:41

they finally get multitasking... that thing android had at launch

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145854 because there are so many Android based iPad competitors on the market right now

tzenes

they hit the market in November... coincidence?

though I have an android phone

Ivo Flipse

november @tzenes?

tzenes

that's the general consensus I've been seeing

Ivo Flipse

you mean Verizon's tablet and the like?

radp

17:47

I've won Need For Speed: World.

I reached the point where no further progress is possible, which is usually known as victory.

Ivo Flipse

indeed

tzenes

I think they're all trying to target November to be out for the holidays

Ivo Flipse

I didn't feel like trying that hard with the previous version of NFS

radp

I'm disappointed, the site doesn't mention anywhere going past level 10 costs 20$

One'd have thought putting a $600,000 (ingame money) price tag on high tier cars was incentive enough to use the 3 day rental offers instead (which cost real money)

Apparently, they still need the one time payment.

tzenes

Micropayments are often weird

radp

17:50

Mind you -- for a "mmorpg", asking just for a one time payment is awesome

tzenes

I think Western culture isn't used to them yet

radp

I just wish they were more honest upfront.

LessPop_MoreFizz

:145886 That is the biggest problem with Micropayment MMORPGs.

radp

$20 is not a micropayment

tzenes

we're very familiar with the "service" model where we pay a monthly fee, but paying $1-$10 for virtual goods is foreign to us

LessPop_MoreFizz

17:51

most of them are really scuzzy and try to hide the way they charge you.

radp

Mind you, you pay $20/€20 and get the $20/€20 equivalent of ingame currency

so in a very sort of backward way you don't pay anything (except I wouldn't have bought the ingame currency to begin with)

tzenes

eventually we'll become more used to these micro payments and publishers will stop trying to hide them

radp

Oh, but micropayments weren't hidden at all @tzenes

It's the required macropayment that was hidden

tzenes

right

radp

world.needforspeed.com

tzenes

17:53

I'd still term that as a micropayment

micropayment is an ambiguous term by nature

radp

"PURCHASE NOW AND RECEIVE STARTER PACK! $20 WORTH OF INGAME CURRENCY! ACCESS TO 40 MORE LEVELS! EXCLUSIVE CAR!"

tzenes

Micropayment

A micropayment is a financial transaction involving a very small sum of money. PayPal defines a micropayment as a transaction of less than 12 USD, and though micropayments were originally envisioned to involve much smaller sums of money, practical systems to allow transactions of less than 1 USD have not been developed. One problem that has prevented their emergence is a need to keep costs for individual transactions low, which is impractical when transacting such small sums, even if the transaction fee is just a few cents. History Micropayments were initially devised as a way of allow...

so paypal sets the bar at $12, but there is obviously some contention

Ivo Flipse

I guess it's more about the car and the levels @badp, less about the 20$

in the Storm8 games you buy points with cold hard cash

but they scale with your own level, so when you're further into the game, you get more

radp

What I do know is that I have no further reason to play the game

If I want the occasional pursuit I still have NFS:MW installed...

:145921 chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/226/game-recommendations

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