The Bridge

fredley

2:00 PM

What do you even spend your money on when there are replicators and holodecks?

Unionhawk

However mining not being automated takes a FA point away from it

fredley

There is almost no concept of luxury in the Trek universe afaik

Nzall

Also, are those miners in the core parts of the Federation, or are they in the fringes?

Kevin van der Velden

@fredley access to said things?

@Unionhawk that's okay, the mining isn't being done in space

fredley

@KevinvanderVelden So it's artificial scarcity then?

@KevinvanderVelden It's on a planet that is in space though

Unionhawk

2:01 PM

Yeah if the means of production are privately owned then we are at square one

Kevin van der Velden

@fredley SO IS EVERY PLANET

fredley

@KevinvanderVelden I mean, except Earth. You have to go into space to get anywhere else though.

Kevin van der Velden

@fredley EARTH IS ALSO IN SPACE

Unionhawk

No

Nzall

Everything which is orbiting something else is in space

Unionhawk

2:02 PM

Earth is the ground

fredley

*prepares to spin out trolling @KevinvanderVelden for as long as possible*

Unionhawk

Space is up

You fool

fredley

Space is out. If you were in Australia it would be down, obviously.

Kevin van der Velden

@fredley I mean you'd basically already reached the end of how far it could go

Unionhawk

Ok fair enough

Kevin van der Velden

2:02 PM

@fredley australia is definitely space

fredley

AUSTRALIA IS IN SPACE: DATA ACCEPTED

Kevin van der Velden

It's SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE but with more drop bears

Nzall

Yuuki

2:18 PM

> Justice League Rotten Tomatoes Rating is Out. It's 43%

welp

Unionhawk

Perhaps unintentionally, this headline sums up everything that's wrong with "cinematic universes" and comic movies especially.

Tweeted by jakebackpack on November 15, 2017 at 1:19 PM

StrixVaria

@Unionhawk Maybe it sums up what's currently wrong with them but I like the idea as a concept.

I actually should make an effort to watch all the MCU movies.

Yuuki

Eh, a number of them are skippable.

I have yet to watch the second Thor movie in its entirety and I don't think it's affected my understanding of the universe.

StrixVaria

I've missed a whole bunch, though. I haven't seen Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man, or any of the sequels to anything.

I'm sure that some of them don't affect the greater plot but I still hear pretty good things about most of them.

Yuuki

For the time being, Guardians of the Galaxy is still its own part of the universe with little interaction with anything else.

But Infinity War will almost definitely change that.

StrixVaria

2:27 PM

Is Spider Man Homecoming part of it?

Yuuki

Part of the MCU? Yes.

Kevin van der Velden

@Yuuki there's one bit in thor 3 that'd be weird without having seen thor 2

StrixVaria

@Yuuki Just need to get X-Men back then.

Yuuki

Although you might want to watch Captain America: Civil War first for some slight background, although it's not particularly needed since they go over plot-important parts anyway.

Ronan

@KevinvanderVelden I didn't think so, having not seen 2.

StrixVaria

2:28 PM

If I'm going to spend money to watch these movies I'll probably watch them in order of release.

Kevin van der Velden

@Ronan [SPOILERS: ] When thor first meets loki in asgard

Yuuki

@Ronan It's the first part in Asgard that might confuse people who haven't watched 2.

Ronan

@KevinvanderVelden Yeah I know, but "things happened before this" isn't really much of a stretch to assume.

Kevin van der Velden

Perhaps

Yuuki

@StrixVaria Well, I'm currently building up my collection on Google Play so I could always do a marathon or show one or two every now and then.

Unionhawk

2:32 PM

ugh

Chrome for Android no longer infers http when copying URLs from the address bar that don't already have https

so it'll just copy twitter.com for instance without adding http

ugh

Fortunately this is an increasing non-issue

since https is included in the address bar

Avery

I like firefox for android more tbh

it supports extensions

so I can have userstyles on bridge

Lazers 2.0

0

Q: Best team setups

What are the best teams for each aspect of fighting (ToA, Arena attack, Arena def, Raid, Guild attack, Carios, and "story" dungeons) with the following mons? Fairy King- Fire 5 star Magic Knight- Water 5 star Anubus- Water 5 star Magic Knight- Wind 4 star Death Knight- Wind 4 star Nine-Tail...

summoners-war

0

Q: Are there any friendly Thargoids left?

I've been out of the Elite: Dangerous universe for quite awhile. Before I left, the Thargoids had just started showing up. Back then, they would occasionally interdict pilots during hyper-jumps in certain regions of space. During these "hyper-dictions", the ship's systems would malfunction for a...

elite-dangerous

Unionhawk

> Today we released a prototype of a C# feature called "nullable reference types"

wait

but

what

Kevin van der Velden

What

Unionhawk

That's what I'm trying to figure out, it sounds more like a language feature intended to catch nullreferenceexceptions in a more nice manner

quartata

2:44 PM

lots of languages do this, sounds like Optional or Haskell's Maybe

Private Pansy

How is that different from a optional type?

quartata

yeah doesn't C# already have that though is what I was going to say

Tim Stone

C# has nullable types but this makes all types declarable nullable

Unionhawk

Yes

Tim Stone

It's basically Java's findbugs @NonNull/@Nullable

Unionhawk

2:46 PM

Value types are nonnullable by default

Reference types are

And now it essentially sounds like they're making reference types nonnullable by default so you can know in certain scenarios that MyThing.Dereference will always be safe

Tim Stone

But instead of annotations it's now syntax that will plague literally every project in existence :D

quartata

nice

Unionhawk

Yeah this language version move is going to be fun in like 20 years

Tim Stone

There is at least a compiler flag to disable the warnings, and supposedly

> The warnings will recognize existing ways of checking for null, and not force you to change your code where you are already diligently doing so.

Unionhawk

Ah nice

lol

quartata

2:48 PM

not even Rust was able to fuck this one up, thanks Macrosift

Unionhawk

Oh they're all just warnings too

And we ignore warnings as it is on this project lol

quartata

hahahahaha

Unionhawk

Which...

probably not ideal

Tim Stone

You monster

fredley

@Unionhawk inb4 rekt

Unionhawk

2:50 PM

Listen, it's not my fault

Tim Stone

IT IS NOW

Unionhawk

I'd go in and fix every "variable e is unused" or whatever but I'd get rekt for doing that thing

quartata

UNIONHAWK HATES WARNINGS AND PUPPIES -> DATA ACCEPTED

Unionhawk

Since that's what a lot of them are

quartata

why e specifically

Unionhawk

2:52 PM

catch (Exception e)

StrixVaria

@Unionhawk I removed an unused variable according to some static analysis tool at my last job and then the software wouldn't boot.

3

It was used, but only via reflection.

Because of course that was a thing.

Unionhawk

hahahahahaha

Tim Stone

Nice

Unionhawk

I also see a lot of "this member hides inherited member use new if this was your intent"

A whole lot of "inherited member is hidden" holy shit

Tim Stone

Whyyyyyyyyyy

quartata

2:55 PM

I smell an antipattern

Unionhawk

The official count of all warnings in this solution after a rebuild:

324

0 errors though so we're good!

Tim Stone

Our codebases are looking better by comparison and that's not a good sign

quartata

gross

Unionhawk

overrides object.equals(object) but not object.gethashcode()...

Tim Stone

|:

Unionhawk

2:57 PM

GetHostByName(string) is obsolete...

Empty switch block

quartata

you have the power to fix those

Unionhawk

hahahahahaha

Kevin van der Velden

Unionhawk

> The result of the expression is always 'true' since a value of type 'bool' is never equal to 'null' of type 'bool?'

Kevin van der Velden

I don't know why you lot are complaining =p

Unionhawk

2:59 PM

that's amazing

quartata

so wait

it's saying someone did bool == null?

Unionhawk

I guess

Tim Stone

Well that a bool? is never set to null

quartata

probably sounds like they expected something else as a return value

Tim Stone

And then it checks .HasValue or something

Unionhawk

3:00 PM

@TimStone It's doing string.Contains("thing") != null

Avery

hm, I wonder if I can keep my old ID if I change it

Tim Stone

LOL

Unionhawk

I don't understand what

why would you do that

Tim Stone

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat

Unionhawk

do you mean != false perhaps, friend?

and we just never ran into an issue?

somehow?

quartata

3:02 PM

that actually sounds like a type inference issue. it should throw an error rather than inferring the null as a bool?

Avery

(I'll get a picture change bc 1 - 2)

Tim Stone

Hmm, I guess I should boot back to Windows 7 and actually move some more stuff over so I can, y'know, work

quartata

why would you ever have a nullable bool anyways

Nzall

@StrixVaria I hope you didn't notice that in production

Tim Stone

true, false, FileNotFound

Unionhawk

3:02 PM

@quartata I mean checkboxes are often expressed in nullable bools

or yeah that

Yuuki

> GamesRadar review of Skyrim (Switch): Apparently the motion controls are good.

quartata

I guess I could see it for a thread condition variable

Unionhawk

Some case where you want 3 states

Yuuki

> I am so happy to hear that magic also supports motion control aiming, now I know that my fantasy of standing in front of the TV dressed in dark robes, yelling "UNLIMITED POWER!!!" whilst frying a mudcrab with lightning can be a reality!

Unionhawk

Besides, all value types are nullable

Tim Stone

3:03 PM

@Yuuki Yeah but can you flap your arms to fly as a dragon?

quartata

@Unionhawk pls no, use an enum

StrixVaria

@Nzall No, locally.

Nzall

Reflection is dangerous

quartata

there are some legit uses in languages that lack better compile-time tools

eg Go and its struct tags

Nzall

but we use Struts2, which uses reflection frequently: binding between URLs and code-behind and pages, binding between pages and front-end variables, etc

So we use it as well: we have a couple of helper methods which can copy values from our front-end action to the views, and from the views to the business object beans

but we don't use it beyond that all that much

StrixVaria

3:09 PM

@Nzall We used reflection on every HTTP request we got to look up the right class and method to handle the request.

That doesn't seem like so bad a use.

The one that caused the thing not to boot was different, in the database layer.

quartata

Why reflection for that? HashMap<String, Runnable>

unless your routing is more complicated

StrixVaria

It would have required a pretty big refactor to do it that way. I wasn't around when it was written.

quartata

I don't really know the usecase but it just seems like it would have to be some funky code for a dispatch table to not suffice

does C# have Runnable anyway?

Kevin van der Velden

Func<Bla>

quartata

or did they learn from pre-1.8's mistake and make sane Function classes

yeah cool

Yuuki

3:16 PM

Maximillian

Good morning, Bridge.

quartata

Is it a variadic template so you don't have to have BiFunction and all that garbage

Kevin van der Velden

Variadic templates are not a thing C# has

Heck, templates are not a thing C# has, it's generics

There's a maximum of 16 arguments Func supports, plus the return value (i.e. 16 arguments and the return value, 17 type arguments)

Maximillian

Man why did that comment star so well? Sigh.

Kevin van der Velden

@Maximillian I 'unno, bridge being bridge?

quartata

3:27 PM

@KevinvanderVelden Ohh I see how that works -- probably has some dummy type as the default

I guess that's probably the best you can do

Certainly beats Java's solution

Kevin van der Velden

@quartata it does not, there's simply 17 different versions of Func, from 0 arguments and 1 return value to 16 arguments and 1 return value

If you want a callback without a return value you use one of the 16 versions of Action

quartata

...

Does C# not have default arguments? Like in C++: template <typename T = int>

Unionhawk

Tuple<T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6, T7, TWHARRGARBL>

(but wait there's more)

Kevin van der Velden

@quartata it does not, and what does that help? Then the default would be a thing with 16 arguments of int

Unionhawk

(you can go deeper)

Kevin van der Velden

3:29 PM

@Unionhawk Don't you recursively use Tuples

Don't you do it

Unionhawk

Tuple<T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6, T7, Tuple<T1, T2, T3, T4, T5, T6, T7, TWHARRGARBL>>

Kevin van der Velden

:(

Unionhawk

that second set of T might need to be T8-whatever

Maximillian

Just not T800.

Those ones are mean.

Unionhawk

although that's probably valid if your T1 and T1 are the same

Kevin van der Velden

3:31 PM

@Unionhawk There are 8-Tuples

Unionhawk

Yes

quartata

@KevinvanderVelden You could define an empty class like class NoArg {} and have all 17 default to that, then check with a (free) instanceof how many you got

Kevin van der Velden

@quartata that would not in any way be free

quartata

was my logic

StrixVaria

I am reading online arguments about the definition of "skill floor" and getting progressively angrier that there are so many wrong people on the Internet.

Kevin van der Velden

3:32 PM

C# generics are not templates, they are not recompiled with the types substituted

quartata

@KevinvanderVelden it would surely optimize out since the type is known

Unionhawk

@StrixVaria it's how good a completely unskilled person is by default at a character or game

Kevin van der Velden

@quartata that would be at runtime, and no it won't

quartata

well then

StrixVaria

@Unionhawk Yes, so Lucio has a high skill floor because even if you are completely incompetent, merely existing provides benefit to your team.

Kevin van der Velden

3:33 PM

Yup, hence 17 different versions

StrixVaria

There are a lot of people who consider it the opposite.

Kevin van der Velden

@StrixVaria those people are wrong

Unionhawk

I was actually under the impression that I was being intentionally wrong

Kevin van der Velden

(as you presumably know, I was just agreeing with you)

StrixVaria

@KevinvanderVelden Yes but there are so many :(

Unionhawk

3:34 PM

Jokes on me

Kevin van der Velden

@Unionhawk Wow, @Uni was so Wrong while trying to be Wrong he was actually right?

Unionhawk

THE TWIST, DOUBLE WRONG

StrixVaria

The ceiling and the floor are the limits of possible skill within a character's skill spectrum.

You can't go below the floor or above the ceiling.

The absolute worst possible Lucio contributes more to his team than the absolute worst possible Widowmaker, so Lucio has a higher skill floor than Widowmaker.

Kevin van der Velden

Having a low floor be "This is an easy character" means that you're saying there is a lot of room to grow

DanmakuGrazer

So that means that a high skill floor requires high skill

By your definition

StrixVaria

3:35 PM

@Unionhawk This is how to reconcile your wrongness with an intuitive explanation of correctness.

@DanmakuGrazer If you got that out of something I said then there's a miscommunication somewhere.

DanmakuGrazer

The definition doesn't mention effectiveness

Only skill

Unionhawk

By your own logic a skill floor and a skill ceiling are exactly the same

Therefore it's zero-width geometry and a CAD program would yell at you

StrixVaria

@Unionhawk wat

Kevin van der Velden

Is uni being wrong on purpose again?

Well at least he succeeded on being wrong this time

MBraedley

@KevinvanderVelden I started a rebuild for the express purpose of saying "That's not too many warnings" but it's going to take a while...

Kevin van der Velden

3:38 PM

@MBraedley I was merely one-upping the 300 something people were complaining about

Unionhawk

How the fuck is 324 a low number

What the fuck is wrong with your guys codebases

StrixVaria

Genji has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. Winston has a high skill floor and a relatively low skill ceiling (compared to other heroes). Lucio has a high skill floor and a high skill ceiling. I don't think there are any heroes with a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling because that would just be a really bad hero.

Kevin van der Velden

(mostly one-upping it by placing a one in front of it)

@MBraedley also that's C++ right? We are talking about C# so the warning-count wouldn't mean as much

Yuuki

@StrixVaria Roadhog after they nerfed him?

Unionhawk

Afaik roadhog is in a decent spot now?

Yuuki

3:40 PM

He was basically completely useless for awhile there.

Unionhawk

At least an ok spot?

Yuuki

Did they buff him a bit recently?

DanmakuGrazer

Define "recently"

Unionhawk

I don't know, I saw him in the internethulk memorial but I guess that was a friendly tournament on PTR

DanmakuGrazer

He can move while healing, if you didn't know

StrixVaria

3:42 PM

Yeah Roadhog is definitely not in "completely useless" territory right now, but he was for a bit.

Symmetra/Torbjorn might be low floor/low ceiling.

MBraedley

@KevinvanderVelden It is. My Java workspace does have 371 warnings, and it's relatively small.

StrixVaria

Wait no, they're high floor/low ceiling, I'm just an idiot.

Unionhawk

Those guys are fairly map dependent

DanmakuGrazer

Hmmmm

Yuuki

For awhile, Sombra was low floor/low ceiling, IIRC.

StrixVaria

3:45 PM

Mei might be low floor/low ceiling. She can do a little tricky stuff with her wall but that's it.

DanmakuGrazer

Hmmmmmm

Yuuki

@StrixVaria Mei's effectiveness is dependent on game type, I think.

DanmakuGrazer

> Unfortunately the terms have become clouded because the League of Legends community adopted what I consider a reverse terminology for "skill floor" and the games popularity has made this usage spread.

StrixVaria

@DanmakuGrazer This is one of the threads I read that started my complaint about people being wrong.

DanmakuGrazer

So just ignore the LoL meaning because it's wrong

StrixVaria

3:47 PM

Pretty much.

MBraedley

@StrixVaria No, I wouldn't say she has a low skill ceiling. It's certainly lower than someone like Genji, but I wouldn't say it's lower than Ana or Winston.

Yuuki

@DanmakuGrazer Or rather, it's plotted against skill alone.

StrixVaria

@MBraedley Yeah, I think overall Overwatch did a pretty good job with the top end skills on all the characters.

No one has a cripplingly low skill ceiling.

MBraedley

Actually, I would say the lowest skill ceilings are Ana and Torb, IMHO.

DanmakuGrazer

Symmetra?

I'd say Symmetra over Torb

There's not much nuance to Symmetra

Yuuki

3:49 PM

@DanmakuGrazer If we're looking at primary guns alone. Symmetra has her barrier ability, which requires more skill to use than Torbjorn's armor packs.

StrixVaria

I don't see how Ana has a low skill ceiling at all, she's so aim dependent and has 3 different timings to keep in mind for different abilities (instant when scoped, projectile for dart/unscoped, and lob for grenade).

Unionhawk

Yeah no

hold on

what

StrixVaria

Symmetra and Torb are the two clearly lowest skill ceilings IMO, kind of a toss up between the two.

MBraedley

@DanmakuGrazer If we take a holistic look at the characters, Symm isn't particularly easy to play (and I think importantly, stay alive).

Unionhawk

torb has the lowest ceiling because he's short send tweet

Yuuki

3:51 PM

No no, lowest skill ceiling is Hanzo. Hold down left button, release to fire a truck-sized projectile.

Press E to hit everyone on the map.

StrixVaria

@Yuuki Only the enemy Hanzo has truck-sized projectiles.

Allied Hanzo has ethereal arrows.

MBraedley

Symm's skill floor is incredibly low, granted, but she's not the only one.

Yuuki

@StrixVaria So they can only hit Reaper?

StrixVaria

@Yuuki ...yes.

DanmakuGrazer

@MBraedley Now which floor is this?

StrixVaria

3:53 PM

Yes, are you using the correct or incorrect definition of skill floor when you say that?

DanmakuGrazer

I should ask a terminology question about it and watch as Arqade implodes

StrixVaria

@DanmakuGrazer As a moderator I approve.

Unionhawk

Watch as @StrixVaria bans everyone

MBraedley

@StrixVaria Skill floor is the amount of skill you need to just play the character.

StrixVaria

I'll only ban people who post the wrong definition.

@MBraedley Wrong.

> Normal "skill floor": how effective a hero can be when played by a beginner. Low skill floor heroes are very difficult to contribute with until you are an advanced player.
LoL "skill floor": how much skill you need to start being effective with a hero. Low skill floor heroes are easy to contribute with even as a beginner.

Unionhawk

3:54 PM

visits @MBraedley's user page coward

StrixVaria

LoL "skill floor" is backwards.

DanmakuGrazer

I only ever heard the "LoL definition" way before LoL existed, though

Yuuki

Skill floor is how good you need to be at dancing so you don't get embarrassed at the club.

DanmakuGrazer

I don't even know what to think anymore

Kevin van der Velden

If someone asks that I will hand-draw an mspaint image to explain why LoL is wrong

StrixVaria

3:55 PM

I first heard the LoL definition recently and my mind imploded at the wrongness of it.

Yuuki

Or is that floor skill?

The two definitions make different assumptions about effectiveness.

ToxicFrog

The LoL definition is the only definition I have ever heard for "skill floor" going back to the 90s -- "the minimum amount of skill needed to effectively contribute to a task"

MBraedley

Lowest skill players play at the skill floor, highest skill players play at the skill ceiling, therefore the LoL definition is correct.

DanmakuGrazer

The two definitions graph skill in terms of effectiveness or effectiveness in terms of skill

Yuuki

Honestly, it's like metric vs imperial system.

StrixVaria

3:56 PM

21 mins ago, by StrixVaria

The absolute worst possible Lucio contributes more to his team than the absolute worst possible Widowmaker, so Lucio has a higher skill floor than Widowmaker.

Yuuki

The truth of the matter is that you're both wrong.

Skill floor/ceiling should be measured in Kelvin.

Unionhawk

Skill floor is the amount of skill you have while sitting on the floor

DanmakuGrazer

That's floor skill

Unionhawk

No

Frank

@Yuuki I think that's floor skill.

Maximillian

3:57 PM

We haven't had real skill since 1945. What we have now is artifical.

Yuuki

Skill ceiling is how effective you are at a LAN party when duct taped to the ceiling.

ToxicFrog

Using "skill floor" to mean "effectiveness floor" seems to be a uniquely Overwatch thing; the LoL definition is the commonly used one.

Unionhawk

@Yuuki That is you have to be very good to be effective in that manner

StrixVaria

If the ceiling is the limit on how good the best possible player can be with a character, then the floor is the limit on how bad the worst possible player can be with that character.

There is no other interpretation that makes any sense.

Yuuki

@StrixVaria I don't think any of us are making money on this argument.

DanmakuGrazer

3:59 PM

...

Maximillian

Open the door, get on the floor, everybody skill check the dinosaur.

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