The Bridge

badp

12:00 PM

@fredley I don't know you have to re-asphalt roads regularly

djsmiley2k

LOL

Private Pansy

Fucking, Austria

Fucking (German pronunciation: [ˈfʊkɪŋ], rhymes with "booking") is an Austrian village in the municipality of Tarsdorf, in the Innviertel region of western Upper Austria. The village is 33 kilometres (21 mi) north of Salzburg, 4 km (2.5 mi) east of the river Inn, which forms the German border. Despite having a population of only 104 in 2005, the village has drawn attention for its unusual place name in the English-speaking world. Its road signs are a popular visitor attraction, and they were often stolen by souvenir-hunting tourists until 2005, when the signs were modified to be theft-resistant...

djsmiley2k

we have suspenmsion

badp

I would expect a sign to have a much longer lifetime than asphalt

djsmiley2k

we don't repair our roads.

@badp we reegularly nnick our signs

and hit them with things

fredley

12:00 PM

@badp Not that regularly, and then it's just a bit more paint on top

djsmiley2k

(trucks...)

Also, signs physically block things

road markings done

badp

also vertical signs have priority over horizontal signs

djsmiley2k

don't

badp

which means you can't really trust horizontal signs

fredley

@badp wat

ROUND ALL THE BOUTS

badp

12:01 PM

@fredley yes

this is so if you have to change how an intersection operates you don't have to change all of the paint

fredley

@badp Signage in North America is also garbage

badp

you just install different signs

north american signs are total garbage

fredley

Particularly the use of tiny lettering on highway signs

pls

badp

E V R O P A

the only way

fredley

In Canada they have some signs which are new, which have hilarious 'NEW!' signs next to the actual signs

Also all the signs are yellow, there's no colour variation

Private Pansy

12:03 PM

@fredley Ewwwww

badp

@fredley excellent

fredley

And on the occasions where it's not a standard crossway intersection they just don't bother signing it at all, because it's too hard and confusing

badp

I think the red stop sign is pretty universal

please don't tell me they yellow lozenge the stop signs too

Private Pansy

@badp The shape is not

fredley

@badp Yeah but then I have no idea how stop junctions work, so I just go and people toot

badp

12:04 PM

HOW TO PRECEDENCE
1. Take precedence
2. Use precedence

fredley

3. Do the precedance

TRANS
EUROPE
EXPRESS

badp

Elio e le storie tese - PresiDance (il ballo del Presidente) feat. Raffaella Carrà

►

BlueBarren

I wish fan games would go die in a fire

badp

fredley

@BlueBarren Nobody is requiring you to play them, read about them, or otherwise acknowledge their existence

BlueBarren

12:10 PM

@fredley the reason I want them to die in a fire is because I hate this misunderstanding that big corporation X is a bad guy for exercising their right to protect their IP

the actual games themselves are okay, it's more of a conceptual thing

fredley

This conversation has already exceeded my capacity for caring

BlueBarren

fair enough

Unionhawk

@BLUEBARREN IS @MRRYANMORRISON: DATA ACCEPTED

BlueBarren

@Unionhawk who?

Unionhawk

videogameattorney

Avery

12:12 PM

Anyone knows how to disable the 'x and y liked this' notifications on twitter?

BlueBarren

ah

fredley

@Avery Delete your Twitter account

Unionhawk

@Avery no because I like that feature don't @ me

Avery

you great few keep liking controversial stuff

And i tap on it

Unionhawk

oh lol

hello

Avery

12:14 PM

And then I go all bonkers on idiots, prepare a rant, then fail to fit in 140 and just give up

Today on AveRants: stefan molyneux

BlueBarren

Didn't they experiment with long tweets at one point? What ever happened to that?

Unionhawk

oh no https://t.co/8aFMcXUH6T

Tweeted by eevee on June 29, 2017 at 2:07 AM

fredley

cc: @Ronan

Ronan

@fredley Neat.

Unionhawk

@Avery To be fair, even that dude's avatar is gross

Avery

12:17 PM

@Unionhawk yes

whatever I won't go on a rant

DanmakuGrazer

@Avery Thanks

Unionhawk

I think the room understands that he's Wrong On The Internet in addition to having a really weird twitter icon

Avery

I actually had a crazy idea y'know

not sure how to word it though

DanmakuGrazer

"Don't let yourself get bothered by what any single person on the planet thinks?"

Unionhawk

Guess who gets to reduce the size of all containers on this screen by 20 pixels to accomidate another row of tabs?

THAT'S RIGHT IT'S ME

UGH

Avery

12:27 PM

also I really am "wtf" with these replies and like ratios

DanmakuGrazer

Scratch that thought I guess

Unionhawk

well that was easier than I thought

horray regex replacement

Avery

I need eye bleach

BlueBarren

@Avery do I want to click that at work?

Avery

@BlueBarren you do not want to click that if you're alive.

BlueBarren

12:38 PM

oh

well I won't then

hmmm

Cannot resolve symbol

ToxicFrog

\o/ programming \o/

BlueBarren

I both love and hate programming at the same time, is that normal?

Kevin van der Velden

Yes

Arperum

@Unionhawk What kind of horrible thing are you making that that is even needed?

Kevin van der Velden

C/C++?

BlueBarren

12:43 PM

is it supposed to be a 50/50 split or should it be more skewed?

Kevin van der Velden

@BlueBarren Depends on what I'm doing

BlueBarren

c#.net?

ToxicFrog

@BlueBarren depends on what you're working on

It's, like, 90% hate/10% love for me if I'm doing anything in Java, frex.

Or anything that touches the DOM.

BlueBarren

I'm a sole intern working on a global application that's supposed to be super detailed and in depth

and this is my first job out of school

ToxicFrog

OTOH right now I'm working on an embedded systems thing that is the opposite even when it's full of segfaults, so

Kevin van der Velden

12:45 PM

@ToxicFrog accurate

BlueBarren

@ToxicFrog Now see out of all those I only know Java and know about DOM

badp

meanwhile in Germany twitter.com/polizeiberlin/status/880400161142226945/photo/1

Avery

C# requires horribly long solutions for everything

not exactly true, sec.

from yesterday: 4 ways to convert a float to int32.

python: _timer -> int or int(_timer)

Unionhawk

(int)floor(x)

Avery

that's there.

First line

Kevin van der Velden

12:49 PM

int(str(_timer))

Because stringifying things and then parsing them as numbers is a great thing to do

Avery

@KevinvanderVelden points at intTimer2 and intTimer3point5

Kevin van der Velden

Yeah, string does not inherit from int, I don't see the problem

C# is a strongly typed language which python is not

If you don't like that use python, if you want compile time type guarantees then use C#

Avery

I do like C# more

Chippies

@Avery I don't understand how this is a problem?

Avery

but some statements are just looong

BlueBarren

12:51 PM

hmmm 'Class' does not contain a definition for 'Method'

Avery

and that's like messing with me while rubberducking the code

Kevin van der Velden

And System.Convert.ToInt32 is a specific "do your best to convert whatever this object is to an int"

Unionhawk

int output
string x = _timer.ToString()
if(int.TryParse(x, out output) == true ? true : false)
    return output
else
    return 0

Chippies

python and C# both share one way to convert it, C# just has more ways. How is that a bad thing?

Kevin van der Velden

The bad thing is that in python all of those ways that are different in C# are under the same banner so it's less predictable

So python sucks, there turned it around =p

Avery

12:52 PM

i found (int) something to be less reliable

Kevin van der Velden

Define reliable?

Arperum

@Avery That's because you tell it "it's definitely an int, not something that might need any sort of conversion"

Avery

not keeping/getting said type. Likely a compiler bug, but meh.

Unionhawk

"Compiler this is an integer. Trust me. I'm a scientist." - what happens when you use casts

fredley

@badp Silly Germany, that's not an airport, that's just a port. Planes don't go there!

Kevin van der Velden

12:55 PM

Actually no, "Compiler I would like you to convert this to an int via whatever way you have been explicitly told to allow"

With "No that's not a thing" being a very real and common option

Tim Stone

Mmm that fresh morning dose of "Our President is an idiot"

Unionhawk

@KevinvanderVelden Well, yes, but it's still trusting you to some extent

Kevin van der Velden

@Unionhawk not really, in C# it only uses compile time verifiable methods of conversion

Unionhawk

If you have an object that at execution time isn't an int, and it hits a cast, it'll explode

Kevin van der Velden

Oh yeah or it's an object, don't pass around objects you idiot

Objects are bad mkay

Unionhawk

12:56 PM

hang on let's update that terrible code from above

ToxicFrog

I would have thought that would be a compile-time error

Unionhawk

Nope:

ToxicFrog

(it's not in C, if by "object" you mean "pointer to", but I thought C# didn't have computable pointers)

Kevin van der Velden

@ToxicFrog object -> int no

Unionhawk

object x;
x = something;
int c = (int)x;

Kevin van der Velden

12:57 PM

@ToxicFrog it has System.Object which every reference type extends

Don't confuse it with pointer to things

Unionhawk

line 3 can explode if something is not convertible to int

Avery

OH YEAH

Kevin van der Velden

@Unionhawk yeah don't do that

Avery

good luck trying to find out what's a pointer and what's not in C#

Arperum

@Unionhawk Yes, and doing so is dumb.

Kevin van der Velden

12:58 PM

@Avery err, "Everything that isn't a System.IntPtr or similar" done coach

Unionhawk

@KevinvanderVelden I mean now that C# 2 exists yeah

This isn't a thing anyone should ever do anymore

ToxicFrog

@KevinvanderVelden right, but I would have thought that (int)(something that inherits from Object) would be a compile-time error. Does it end up turning into something like C++ dynamic_cast<int>?

Avery

@KevinvanderVelden I'm mostly ranting about unity's mono fork here.

@Unionhawk The best way to go when you're suspecting it'll explode is TryParse.

Unionhawk

TryParse is fun

Arperum

@ToxicFrog Nope, compiler doesn't care, he trust you know what you are doing, it crashes on runtime.

Kevin van der Velden

12:59 PM

@ToxicFrog int also is a System.Object, sorta, mostly

Unionhawk

It's technically slower if the number you're parsing is always definitely an int, but it's faster than try{ parse } catch

But since it uses out parameters it qualifies as fun

Avery

^

out is painful.

Kevin van der Velden

@Avery tryparse is for strings, not objects

Avery

@KevinvanderVelden yeah, I know.

ToxicFrog

@KevinvanderVelden that makes it make more sense, that makes it a downcast using RTTI

I was expecting int to be a primitive like Java int

Kevin van der Velden

1:03 PM

They are special cases, but they don't need boxing like java does

(i.e. passing an int to a function doesn't pass it by reference)

Unionhawk

yep

Passing anything to a function doesn't pass it by reference

Unless you use ref probably

Avery

wtf trump

Tim Stone

Uhhh, so this is terrifying

Unionhawk

@TimStone defeating violent lies with a fist of truth?

Tim Stone

Yeah

fredley

1:05 PM

@TimStone RIP America

3.5 more years

Unionhawk

@TimStone fascism.mp4

Avery

@fredley WRONG

Unionhawk

@fredley 35 more years

Arperum

@fredley Or so you hope.

fredley

@Unionhawk all more years

Avery

1:06 PM

7.5 more years

fredley

@Avery FAKE NEWS

Avery

then Donald Trump Jr. for 8 years

then hopefully @uni will run and save US

ToxicFrog

@Unionhawk wait, what? That is very much not how I expected a java-inspired language to work.

fredley

Nah, it's Zuck next

ToxicFrog

Unless you're using the other definition of "pass by reference". We need better terminology.

Avery

1:07 PM

@fredley oh right he's running for prez right?

rip privacy

Unionhawk

myFunction(myClass x)
x=null

fredley

I don't know if Zuck will run in 2020, but he'll probably run by 2024 at the current rate

Unionhawk

the x getting passed in doesn't get set to null outside that function

@fredley Dude, he went to Iowa last week

nobody just goes to iowa

fredley

A POTUS in charge of Facebook is almost scarier than Trump

given how much of an impact Facebook supposedly made in the election of Trump

This latest Zuck dispatch, from a diner, suggests he is continuing to have trouble striking a human tone https://t.co/6FPSLGyx18

Tweeted by jessesingal on June 25, 2017 at 7:08 PM

Unionhawk

I saw it described best this way: "Watching zuck try to casually slide into running form public office is like watching a drunk man try to shoplift an air conditioner"

ToxicFrog

1:09 PM

@Unionhawk ok, so what you mean is that it may use pass by reference but it doesn't use pass by name (except "pass by name" is also overloaded, argh)

SaintWacko

@fredley Is... is this real?

Is that actually something he wrote?

fredley

@Unionhawk Doesn't matter, his org has all the data, and knows how to push your buttons #targettedadvertising #nohope #yolo

ToxicFrog

That is to say, when you call the function, it gets a copy of the reference to the same underlying object held by the caller (same as Java, Lua, or Python) rather than a copy of the entire object (like C or C++)

fredley

@SaintWacko That fact you can't be sure says it all

SaintWacko

Also, I'd just like to put this out there: Fuck mornings

BlueBarren

1:10 PM

Random thought/question: Would it be cool if Elon Musk was President?

I mean he really cares about the environment

ToxicFrog

No, but it would be an improvement on the status quo.

SaintWacko

@BlueBarren Yes

Imagine the tech subsidies, and the restrictions on oil and gas companies!

It would be glorious!

I'd probably have to find a different job, but it'd be worth it!

Kevin van der Velden

@Unionhawk I mean, you're passing a reference to an object

Unionhawk

I love floors

Tweeted by elonmusk on June 29, 2017 at 1:42 AM

BlueBarren

oh man, 2020 Musk vs Trump. Old World vs the New

Kevin van der Velden

1:11 PM

You're just not passing a reference to your reference to an object

Avery

They will never let you down

Tweeted by elonmusk on June 29, 2017 at 1:43 AM in reply to elonmusk

BlueBarren

@Unionhawk still better than a Trump tweet in every single way possible

SaintWacko

@Avery FLOORPAC 2020

Avery

will floors give me up, thoguh

ToxicFrog

@KevinvanderVelden this is why "pass by reference" results in so many fights, some people use it to mean "you're passing a reference to the caller's symbol" and some use to mean "you're passing a reference to the caller's value bound to that symbol" (and use "call by name" for the former, but "call by name" can also mean "the called function is conceptually inlined with parameter renaming", which is

almost but not quite equivalent)

~programming~

BlueBarren

1:13 PM

pure beauty

Unionhawk

Well it's not anything at all like doing myFunction(myObject& thing) in C++ or whatever

I forget how that syntax goes

Because it's painful

and I always hated it

ToxicFrog

@Unionhawk where does it differ? And by "it" do you mean with or without ref?

Kevin van der Velden

A standard C# function would have this C++ interface myFunction(Object& thing, Struct otherthing)

Hmm, let's map this out more: C#: myFunction( Object a, Struct b, ref Object c, out Object d) => myFunction( Object& a, Struct b, Object** c, Object& /*out*/ d)

Beedrill

I love passing arguments to collect output.

Unionhawk

I mean it can be fun but & and * were no fun in any situation ever at all

Avery

1:19 PM

^

Beedrill

& and * are pretty confusing; I don't miss using languages that use those.

That is "fixed" in Java by just making everything a pointer, except some things.

Mad Scientist

Trumps most recent tweets are bizarre, even for him. I didn't think they could get any crazier

Arperum

@MadScientist Wait until next month, and see if they got even weirder. I would assume the answer is "Yes"

Tim Stone

https://t.co/8YhzcCUwM1

Tweeted by morningmika on June 29, 2017 at 1:19 PM

I'M DYING

That's it, shut down the internet

Arperum

@TimStone That is an amazing answer.

Kevin van der Velden

1:25 PM

What was it in response to?

Tim Stone

21 mins ago, by Avery

wtf trump

Avery

She can sue, right?

Tim Stone

I'm honestly not sure what protections the president has when the president is also acting as recklessly stupid as possible

Kevin van der Velden

Less than the average person

But better lawyers (well, maybe not trump, good lawyers seem to not want to work for the toddler in chief for some reason)

Nzall

@Avery That depends on whether the statements are meant as opinion or fact. However, libel and slander are different across all states

HazyKingdom

1:29 PM

@TrentHawkins Yep, I saw this coming when they set up the raid passes. Basically a new cash cow. If you don't schedule the raids with your friends, you may as well pay dough to raid all together.

Good morning all!

ToxicFrog

@Beedrill IMO & and * are fine in C. & makes things more pointery and * makes them less pointery. * in type signatures expresses how pointery you expect the thing to be.

Avery

> low I.Q. Crazy Mika, along with Psycho Joe

Tim Stone

@KevinvanderVelden The president has historically (I think) had protection against a variety of personal lawsuits in the past because people are trying to interrupt the presidency by attacking the president directly but also he like had no compelling reason to do this so >_>

Avery

I assume this is free speech?

HazyKingdom

Or afternoon for our European brethren

ToxicFrog

1:30 PM

Where it gets weird is in C++, which adds & to signatures to mean you want it kind of pointery but not really, and lets you overload both operators so that e.g. * on an iterator returns the thing the iterator is pointing to even when the iterator itself is not a pointer.

Kevin van der Velden

@TimStone oh there's weird shit like that? I was referring to the president being (by virtue of being president) a public person

ToxicFrog

(and in C it makes perfect sense to have these; it's a low-level language intended to map very cleanly to asm, where the use of & and * maps conveniently to different addressing modes)

Beedrill

@ToxicFrog I think "more pointery" and "less pointery" are strange explanations. "int* x" makes a pointer, not sure how that's "less pointery".

They do different things in different contexts, which is what makes them confusing.

ToxicFrog

@Beedrill I mean as operators, not as type signatures.

Wipqozn

@TimStone brilliant

Beedrill

1:32 PM

@ToxicFrog Right but if you just learn your mnemonic then people will be confused.

Tim Stone

@KevinvanderVelden Yeah, he's apparently immune from civil lawsuits in federal court

ToxicFrog

"int* x; &x /* more pointery /; *x / less pointery */;

@Beedrill it's not meant to a comprehensive explanation!

Nzall

@Avery Low IQ is something that can be demonstrably proven to be false. But stuff like Crazy and Psycho probably fall under opinion

ToxicFrog

I'm just saying that they aren't really that confusing in C.

Tim Stone

But I don't know how much leeway courts give to the "official acts as president" part

Beedrill

1:33 PM

@ToxicFrog The fact that it needs so much explanation is enough to make it confusing IMO.

Once you understand them it's not that hard, but getting to that point can take a lot of trial and error.

And segmentation faults.

ToxicFrog

@Beedrill how much of that is the notation and how much is just the entire concept of pointers, though?

Like, I've seen people learning pointers through asm where the addressing modes are much more explicit and you get just as many segfaults (and the occasional SIGBUS or SIGILL)

Beedrill

@ToxicFrog I think it's a lot about the notation, because Java is all about pointers and I find that a lot easier to get people to grasp.

Nzall

@TimStone I think it's fair to say that, given that they're archived by the Library of Congress, Trump's tweets could be considered official communication (yes, that includes Covfefe).

Tim Stone

So my sister's dog walker is a legit dog whisperer. This is from yesterday's walk. @dog_rates https://t.co/s4JcFEABFh

Tweeted by MelanieJEaston on June 29, 2017 at 1:09 PM

O_o

ToxicFrog

Java is all about pointers under the hood, but the reason they're called "references" in practice is that they don't behave like pointers; you can't explicitly add/remove layers of indirection, nor can you compute offsets between them or re-aim them at arbitrary parts of memory.

SaintWacko

1:35 PM

@TimStone Wow

ToxicFrog

That removes basically every place pointers in C can trip you up except for NullPointerException.

Beedrill

@ToxicFrog True, I guess the fact that you can't do as much makes them harder to misuse.

Nzall

@TimStone impressive

Beedrill

I think pointers are also complicated in C by the fact that the type of the pointer indicates how many bytes of memory are read when you dereference it, and then void* complicates that even more.

ToxicFrog

Pointers are basically ints that you have a handshake agreement with the compiler are actually the address in memory of something type-compatible with the pointer, while at the same time giving you lots and lots of ways to violate that agreement whether you intend to or not.

badp

1:37 PM

inspirobot.me

ToxicFrog

@Beedrill DictEntry* buf = malloc(len * sizeof(DictEntry*)); /* you are entering a world of pain */

Beedrill

@ToxicFrog C doesn't have function pointers, right? That's a C++ thing?

Kevin van der Velden

@Beedrill C has function pointers

No, it totally does.

1:39 PM

That's how it does callbacks so

ToxicFrog

And the syntax for them is: return type (*name of symbol)(argument types)

Beedrill

@KevinvanderVelden Oh true.

ToxicFrog

E.g. size_t (*impl)(bytecode*, uint8_t)

BlueBarren

I HATE THE LETTER S

Beedrill

1:40 PM

rekt by markdown

badp

hooray for accidental nazism

BlueBarren

IT WAS AN S THE WHOLE TIME

ToxicFrog

Declares a symbol named impl with the type function taking a bytecode* and a uint8_t and returning a size_t

badp

thanks computers

BlueBarren

I pluralized something and didn't notice and wondered why things weren't working

ToxicFrog

1:40 PM

Oh did the markdown go sproing?

Whoops

Beedrill

There, code-escaping it made it better.

ToxicFrog

(I have been using function pointers a lot lately)

Beedrill

I did some projects in college that used them a lot, but I was working in C++ at the time, which is why I couldn't remember if it was also supported in C.

I haven't used either C or C++ since college, though.

ToxicFrog

@Beedrill anyways, going back to my original point -- I think computable pointers (as opposed to references) are, for most people, an intrinsically hard concept, in large part because they have so many ways to go wrong (and no-one ever teaches gdb alongside pointers for some reason); if you're going to learn them, C is a solid choice, because the difficulty is in the concepts rather than in the

notation.

I think it would probably work better, too, to teach references first; then you can move into pointers as "this is how references are actually implemented under the hood, and once you have the hood off there's all sorts of horrible things you can do with them"

Tim Stone

Someone needs to make a bot that Trumpifies Trudeau tweets so we can properly 2016 2017

It’s always a pleasure to visit PEI. Thanks to Premier @WadeMacLauchlan for the meeting focused on creating good jo… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/880420345714442242

Tweeted by JustinTrudeau on June 29, 2017 at 1:39 PM

Beedrill

1:43 PM

@ToxicFrog I definitely agree that, if you want to learn about pointers, you should do it in C.

Unionhawk

@TimStone no

fredley

Tim Stone

@Unionhawk I demand incoherent tweets about how BC oysters are better than PEI oysters

Attorney General Jeff Sessions remarks at Hate Crimes Summit – LIVE online here: http://cs.pn/2tt4h66 https://t.co/CR1a37pVhM

Tweeted by cspan on June 29, 2017 at 1:44 PM

puts on thinking face

Avery

Tim Stone

With the way today is going I'm just going to assume that this is a summit encouraging hate crimes

Unionhawk

1:47 PM

nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu god dammit winforms designer woooooooork

BlueBarren

@Unionhawk does anything ever work for you?

SaintWacko

@TimStone Oh, they would never encourage hate crimes! They just encourage people to do what they feel is necessary to protect themselves and their families from people who are different! Totally different things!

Avery

SaintWacko

Actually, what's probably going to come out of the summit is a statement that hate crimes are down and they're really not something we need to worry about and besides there's no money to be put towards researching and preventing hate crimes anyway

Avery

that's not inspirational.

that's depressing.

Tim Stone

1:50 PM

Adult Swim is hosting a mysterious Rick and Morty livestream that will hopefully answer questions about season three https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/26/15873842/rick-and-morty-season-3-livestream?utm_campaign=polygon&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Tweeted by Polygon on June 26, 2017 at 6:00 PM

badp

@Avery It inspired depression successfully

Tim Stone

/cc @Unionhawk and others?

Unionhawk

paging doctor @fredley

badp