The Periodic Table

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

05:42

@orthocresol I can always de-mod you if you want

Abcd

06:02

@Loong Didn't reply ...

1,3-feeds

06:14

0

Q: Are downvoted questions bad?

Before asking this question, I went through many questions asking about almost the same question I have. Most of them stated that a question which doesn't 'fit' in SE's policy are downvoted (Eg: A homework question with no attempt at all). I recently asked a conceptual question on chemistry SE ...

discussion

Abcd

@DivyankaChaudhari Read about heat from "Atkin's Elements of Physical Chemistry"

Abcd

06:26

Atkins' *

starunique2016

08:07

mains

orthocresol

09:00

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ You can try

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol wrt that meta post showing that 65% of the questions we got in late 2017 got closed or deleted, I have a noob question: how do you stop users from posting a bad question? I agree that we get a lot of bad questions. But, they do get closed within 24hrs, so I think our community is active at filtering the bad stuff out.

But signing up for stackexchange is so easy (even our homepage says "it takes only a minute"), and we're such a popular site, we inevitably do get lots of new user homework-help posts

best we can do is close such questions, which we already are doing

orthocresol

You are right, it is not so trivial. There is no immediate solution. My preferred way would be for the general culture to change.

Gaurang Tandon

"to change".. from what, and to what?

orthocresol

I'm sure I've talked about this before, but I can't find it.

Hold on

Gaurang Tandon

09:16

ok, holding

Avnish Kabaj

Changing culture is very difficult

orthocresol

well, honestly, I don't expect any of you guys to agree with me and it's fine if you don't

but my assumption is that like begets like

if there is a front page of crappy questions, people will assume they can post their crappy question here

now there is a problem because when I say "crappy question" it's not well-defined

however, let's assume for a moment that we agree on what a bad question is

Gaurang Tandon

(okay, assumed)

(continue)

orthocresol

So we need to simply get rid of bad questions. Either by (1) deleting, (2) downvoting below -4, or (3) contributing more good questions

options 1 and 2 are nasty and rude and extreme and other bad adjectives here

so we tried 3, but there's not much participation really

and the reason for that is because there isn't a very large regular user base who have interesting questions to ask

The question then becomes, how do you attract users with knowledge/expertise in the subject (because if we don't cater to these people then we are nothing more than a glorified homework help site)

and again it partly comes back to the front page: if people visit here and see crap on the front page, they won't be inclined to linger around and look for the good stuff

Loong

@orthocresol Hm, we need a homework.stackexchange.com. Then we could just migrate all homework questions to that site. It would surely get more than 10 questions per day and thus be quickly out of beta. ;-)

2

orthocresol

09:25

:)

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol ...but won't they see that that crap question is already "[on hold]", and is not a type of question that we allow on our site?

orthocresol

a front page full of crap, vs a front page full of closed crap, is not very different

It's nowhere near that bad yet, but that seems to be the direction.

Gaurang Tandon

okay, so to bring more expert people in here, we need to have a good looking front page. For that, we need to keep the bad questions out, but the two ways to do it are either "nasty/rude", and the third way doesn't happen so often

that's a summary? --^

orthocresol

well... that's my perspective on it... and it may be a few months out of date, as I have not been paying super close attention to the site

Gaurang Tandon

no, i think i agree with that, not sure what's the reason to disagree as you said earlier :)

except that the definition of "bad" questions is subjective...

well, looking at the front page at this moment

we have a good question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/94822/…

a popular bumped question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/10419/…

lots of zero votes, because they're so recent

few Community bumps

10/47 questions are "on hold"

i have a few ideas, wanna listen @orthocresol, you may recognize a pattern?

orthocresol

09:33

listening

Gaurang Tandon

(1) to improve the quality of questions, we should encourage editing the new questions by the old users. For example, this question just got a proper answer by an old user, but it's title makes me feel like "meh, another homework question". i wouldn't be really interested in reading it if it was on the front page. perhaps, the person who answered it could also edit the title and do some formatting to it?

(not trying to single out a particular old user, but just picking a sample from the front page)

also, there's a huge disparity in the number of editors. the number falls from 2829 to just 158 edits within just 36 users!

it clearly indicates that many regulars don't really take part in editing the questions. even trivial edits help, like if 2-3 people separately fix different problems in a post, the resulting post would be much better than the original. so maybe we should encourage editing new questions?

orthocresol

editing is a good tactic too, we do encourage it (within reason of course), however it seems that we have not managed to get our act together to organise Spring Cleaning 2018

maybe that would help

Gaurang Tandon

no, i'm not talking about editing old questions. i'm instead talking about the ones that are posted/answered on a daily/weekly basis

i don't think spring cleaning is required for that (that was for [homework] I guess?)

orthocresol

oh, i see

Gaurang Tandon

(...so, thoughts?)

Avnish Kabaj

09:46

The thing is most of the homework questions are from new users

And new users don't repeat

It's a different new user every day

orthocresol

firstly I disagree on the choice of the linked question - the answer isn't really proper, the question is meh to me even if we were to clean it up, but that's not really the point

Avnish Kabaj

I dunno how can we change the traffic to the site

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol yeah, I agree on that. the general point though was to get more regulars to contribute to the site by editing the daily stuff that's posted. Currently, it seems only a few users edit stuff, as the number of edits falls sharply on that editors page

@AvnishKabaj (i was talking more about about editing new questions by regulars, to enforce proper quality and formatting in title, body, etc., so that the front-page questions look good; i'm not discussing homework questions specifically at this moment)

orthocresol

I don't see the number of edits as a worrying sign. There will always be people with too much spare time on their hands at the top

Avnish Kabaj

I was just adding my pearls of widsom

*coal

orthocresol

09:52

In general I agree that editing helps. However, it only gets us so far.

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol hmm, but just ten people cannot carry the burden of half of the site's edits, can they? I think this is a worrying sign: regulars answering questions, but not interested in improving their quality by editing them, not even those which they themselves answer.

@orthocresol (yeah, but every little step in improving quality helps, and I've a few more ideas, but let's discuss this one first ;) )

orthocresol

It comes back to something we talked about before. Different people have different standards for formatting/whatever and for most people the bar is not so high.

As long as the question is understandable they are happy to let it be

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol hmm, nice. i didn't think about that. I'll have to think more about that part.

agreed. concluded.

i've one more short idea, are you still there?

orthocresol

yup

Gaurang Tandon

great thanks

here, this question got three answers but only got two positive votes. my question is: if three people considered the question worth their time that they would be interested enough in answering it, why didn't they upvote that question?

again, i'm just picking a single question, but this does happen nearly everyday

orthocresol

09:56

I only speak for myself, but I regularly don't upvote stuff I answer.

You are right that in principle it interested me enough to answer it

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol ...but why? i really wish to know

orthocresol

maybe not "regularly" actually

tatan

@GaurangTandon How was your exam?

Gaurang Tandon

@tatan (actually, just decent, sorry. but i do not really wish to discuss it more, until at least the answer keys are released by eve today!)

tatan

@GaurangTandon Best of luck!!! Hope you clear it!

orthocresol

10:03

Oh, I found the pattern. I generally don't upvote homework questions.

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol ...but you do answer them? :/

Loong

@orthocresol I often upvote stuff that I cannot answer but find interesting.

Gaurang Tandon

@tatan thanks dude, best wishes to you as well! :)

orthocresol

@Loong I do too.

Gaurang Tandon

yep, but i'm trying to formulate the reasons for not upvoting questions that we do post an answer to. i haven't found any reasons till date, and I really want to know at least one reason

orthocresol

10:08

In some of these cases I feel like the answer will only be helpful to the OP.

and the question will not, in general, be useful to a wider audience

Gaurang Tandon

hmmm

okay, seems fine

that's good reason

(3) discouraging answers to homework questions: i won't single out a case here, but, i hope you agree, there are a few users who're answering even the most basic homework questions (have a look here); that makes such questions undeletable by roomba, so we should discourage answers to homework questions

orthocresol

This is a slight point of contention, my current stance on it is "I don't know".

We've argued about this quite a lot before

Gaurang Tandon

oh

orthocresol

[also I found that sometimes I simply forget to upvote questions I answer, which is awkward]

Gaurang Tandon

well, if there's a regular trend of answering poor questions by new users, shouldn't we let them know of our policies?

...that answering homework questions is not allowed, we'll encourage you to spend your energy on other questions

orthocresol

10:23

Maybe.

Avnish Kabaj

@GaurangTandon let it sink in gradually too much too soon is intimidating

Gaurang Tandon

@AvnishKabaj by the time they leave behind several homework answers? nope i'd say. if the trend is observable at 2-3 answers, i'd immediately want to let them know

but i guess nvm

maybe i'll rethink these

i personally think editing stuff/upvoting questions/and not answering bad questions are small steps we can take for overall improvement

but let's see

anyway, time for me to go, heard the solutions are out for today's paper, time to match them

Avnish Kabaj

Best of luck

orthocresol

@GaurangTandon I broadly agree on the first two

Gaurang Tandon

@orthocresol hmm, i just hope you'll spot some more patterns and discuss those internally

thanks though!

i'm out of ideas for today ^_^

made a handy bookmark just in case i forget these msgs

@AvnishKabaj thanks dude

Gaurang Tandon

11:46

@orthocresol i actually missed an important observation. I notice that Marko isn't online or contributing everyday, but he came alive as soon as a synthesis golf was posted. i believe he had set up email notifications/rss feed for this specific tag. maybe that's one way we can retain the existing experts?

we can tell them that "hey! there's this way to subscribe to a feed of questions you love. you'll be auto-notified when new questions in this tag are posted. you don't need to worry about the front-page anymore. we hope to see you stick around here!"

would this work?

pentavalentcarbon

12:20

oh dear, what happened here...

Pritt Balagopal

13:06

@Loong How are you so up-to-date with all the nomenclature changes? You seem to know everything about naming organic compounds.

pentavalentcarbon

please reopen me: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/94774/194

JavaScriptCoder

13:55

yeah that should be open

not too broad at all

Gaurang Tandon

reopen request: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/94577/…

please reopen this --^ i had also put a link to it day before here, but nothing happened :(

JavaScriptCoder

yeah that should be open too

not enough rep to put reopen request though

I just flagged it for the mods

Abcd

14:11

@PrittBalagopal he has the blue book

Anonymous

14:29

@Abcd Yep, thanks for that! :)

Pritt Balagopal

Haha, well so do I (a pdf of it atleast)

Maybe I just suck at reading that book :P

Abcd

15:10

-11

Q: The downvote issue and the stupid rivalry

I asked a question recently, and found that most of the people viewing the question are really appreciating the question. Even the answer is well written and got some votes. I was quite surprised to find out that someone came and downvoted the question and the best answer in quick succession for...

discussion

This question is childish and funny at the same time xD

"he thinks he's smart and may know everything. Is there any way to find out these smarties?" - lol

Gaurang Tandon

clearly shows we don't get any far by insulting even any anonymous person

Divyanka's post on the other hand - almost tangentially asks the same thing - but in a much better way

Avnish Kabaj

My meta participation always gets downvotes

Do I not look wise

And very old

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

15:59

@Abcd I remember that. I was so pissed I couldn't talk well, let alone add something witty

Hence the weird comment

@AvnishKabaj you look like cabbage

8

Avnish Cabbage

8

Avnish Kabaj

Godammit

And someone starred it

I don't know who you are but I will find you then steal all of your rep

Mods I am kidding

I can't hack the skool server

Plz don't ban

Pritt Balagopal

Ahh I stopped caring about meta downvotes atleast here, as they dont affect my rep. I just speak my heart out here.

Gaurang Tandon

16:16

@PrittBalagopal ah, turning questions into gold, eh? ;) well, know that I did upvote it. i found the sentiment very very optimistic :-)

and @AvnishKabaj. don't care about meta downvotes too much. people just disagreed with you, that's all. in a big community, you cannot always expect all of the voters to agree with you. so, just let it be so.

@Loong in $K_\chi$, is $\chi$ treated as a quantity symbol or not? i.e., is it written $K_\chi$ or $K_\mathrm{\chi}$?

Avnish Kabaj

16:58

@GaurangTandon true

Vao 2 people to hack nao

pentavalentcarbon

17:22

I feel like the pH scale question is a duplicate...

Avnish Kabaj

17:45

Jesus 5 people

Now it hurts

Mah Hart mah soul

JavaScriptCoder

The thermodynamics one is probably a duplicate

0

A: Why are there two contradicting formulas for Enthalpy (Delta H):

This is my take on this 1) Delta H = Bonds broken - Bonds Formed 2) Delta H = $H_{products}−H_{reactants}$ Equation 2 is pretty straightforward, (change in enthalpy is the enthalpy of the products minus the enthalphy of the reactants). Equation 1 is a bit less straightforward. Let's d...

Avnish Kabaj

@JavaScriptCoder you haven't flagged it?

JavaScriptCoder

I have now

I'm not sure though

about the degree of duplicateness

Avnish Kabaj

Ya it's a dupe

Pritt Balagopal

Ahh @GaurangTandon that was the most sensible of all of my meta posts :D

Avnish Kabaj

17:51

Sad you wasted your time answering it

Pritt Balagopal

You can check out my worst, which is the 4th most downvoted on ChemMSE

Avnish Kabaj

@PrittBalagopal wise men like us go unappreciated

Such is our cruel fate

Far too wise for the men of current times to see our clear sight

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

18:10

'4th most downvoted'? Keeping track of that is just . . . Wrong

@AvnishKabaj HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Avnish Kabaj

Cyber bully

Pritt Balagopal

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Atleast I also got the 60th most upvoted post there :)

Plus recognition on the front page of web Chemdoodle, what more could you ask for?

JavaScriptCoder

@PrittBalagopal you keep track of that??

@PrittBalagopal I'm at web chemdoodle, where are you

Pritt Balagopal

@JavaScriptCoder Check out web.chemdoodle.com/demos/sketcher and have a read at Basic Usage below

I would be mentioned there

JavaScriptCoder

dang

I am talking to a person who is mentioned on chemdoodle

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

18:24

mouth open wide

Wait, what's Chemdoodle?

Pritt Balagopal

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ It's an online app which I use to create 2D molecular structures (assuming you weren't sarcastic ಠ_ಠ)

JavaScriptCoder

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ ...that's blasphemy to the Chemdoodle Gods

we do not ask what chemdoodle is

chemdoodle is simply... there

Loong

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ chem noodle?

4

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@PrittBalagopal . . . I wasn't at all sarcastic. Fully serious and curious

@Loong I hope it's not GMO

JavaScriptCoder

@Loong you should know whether its GMO

whoo! six stars on avnish cabbage

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

18:30

@JavaScriptCoder He's the CEO

JavaScriptCoder

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ yeah, you thought I didn't know it?

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@JavaScriptCoder you don't ever know anything

JavaScriptCoder

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ cries in corner

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Like you don't know he just successfully spammed his product

JavaScriptCoder

:P

Pritt Balagopal

18:32

Yeah, it was a bit spammy, but it definitely helps users here

Avnish Kabaj

For some reason my table isn't rendering

Please help

0

A: How to calculate mass of water of crystallisation?

The mass of aluminium sulfate has to be taken along with the water of crystallization. Now molar masses $$ \begin{array}{c|c} \hline \text{compound} & \text{ mass (g)} \\ \hline \ce{Al2(SO4)3 & 342 \\ \ce{6H2O} & 108 \\ \hline \ce{Al2(SO4)3\cdot 6H2O} & 450\\ \hline \end{array} $$ After t...

JavaScriptCoder

um... isn't mathjax not LaTeX?

Pritt Balagopal

Hello Avnish "Cabbage" Kabaj, we were just talking about you :)

JavaScriptCoder

so... you don't do tables like that?

Avnish Kabaj

What's wrong

I have used tables anlot of time.e

It's not working

This time

Pritt Balagopal

18:34

@JavaScriptCoder LaTeX vs MathJax? Guess I asked that a while ago: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/378732/… :)

Avnish Kabaj

Man

Pritt

Help me out

Cabbage head needs help

Pritt Balagopal

I hope not Latex help, I'm pretty bad at that

Avnish Kabaj

Tables are pretty standard

pentavalentcarbon

I'm trying to fix it

Avnish Kabaj

Thanks

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

18:37

Huh, I never used array on chem. Just align

Avnish Kabaj

@pentavalentcarbon

Got it

pentavalentcarbon

i saw

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Mart loves align more than his beer

Avnish Kabaj

I was missing a brace

Thanks though

pentavalentcarbon

very irritating

Pritt Balagopal

18:38

Wow nice find

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@pentavalentcarbon (yeah

Pritt Balagopal

That little brace

Avnish Kabaj

Agreed

Pritt Balagopal

Why removed that message tho?

You were right

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

Yes. How is it "too broad"? I'm asking for comparison of sulphate esters and phosphate esters when it comes to hydrolysis in aqueous solutions. — Mr X 2 mins ago

You just ruined it

Pritt Balagopal

18:40

Lol

Avnish Kabaj

@PrittBalagopal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

JavaScriptCoder

@AvnishKabaj ¯_(ツ)_/¯

AARGH

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Pritt Balagopal

Rip

JavaScriptCoder

there we go

pentavalentcarbon

@JavaScriptCoder amateur hour over here

JavaScriptCoder

18:42

@pentavalentcarbon please stop

pentavalentcarbon

hehehehehe

Pritt Balagopal

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@JavaScriptCoder noob

JavaScriptCoder

:P

pentavalentcarbon

that almost looks like me

JavaScriptCoder

18:43

I know @M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ well enough for him to call me noob

I need to get to know @pentavalentcarbon better

except he doesn't exist in real life

so welp

pentavalentcarbon

uwaaaaaa I'm not a bot

Avnish Kabaj

Well pentavalency does

Exist

JavaScriptCoder

no pentavalentcarbons dont exist

M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ

@JavaScriptCoder grrr so it didn't have the desired effect

JavaScriptCoder

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ that's the problem with getting to know me

pentavalentcarbon

18:45

um, $\ce{CH5+}$ would like a word

Avnish Kabaj

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonium_ion

Pritt Balagopal

masterorganicchemistry.com/2010/08/27/…

@pentavalentcarbon You're a common mistake :P

JavaScriptCoder

pentavalentcarbon

I'm a common mistake in sophomore organic chemistry, but that doesn't mean I don't exist

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