The Periodic Table

DHMO

01:21

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp credits?

Wait, you drew them?

user228700

02:41

Hi everyone :-)

user228700

I've got a quick question; is Nitrogen capable of forming four bonds?

DHMO

@Kaumudi hi

@Kaumudi yes, e.g. in ammonium ion (NH4+)

user228700

@DHMO Yes, alright. I was trying to draw the structure of the azide ion. Thanks :-) [And it seems like u're earlier than usual!]

DHMO

(from Wikipedia)

@Kaumudi I just discovered this:
Azide ion contains 5*3+1 = 16 valence electrons
But it contains 3 atoms which needs 3 octets = 24 valence electrons
(24-16)/2 = 4 bonds need to be formed

user228700

@DHMO Hang on, what is that rule u used just now, to calculate the number of bonds to be formed?

DHMO

02:46

@Kaumudi I just made up this rule just now

Might be helpful

user228700

@DHMO Huh? What is it?

DHMO

@Kaumudi I don't have a name for it lol

Just see how I calculated the number 4

I don't know how to describe the rule, so just give me another molecule

user228700

:-P Okay. #of bonds to be formed=[#of valence electrons needed for all atoms to complete octet- #of valence electrons available]/2

DHMO

@Kaumudi yes

user228700

@DHMO Cool. I'll check if this holds up most of the time.

DHMO

02:49

and of course simple rules like this come with exceptions

this only holds for covalent compounds

user228700

@DHMO Yes, of course.

DHMO

@Kaumudi and a dative bond counts as one bonds

using this rule, the number of bonds needed for the nitrate ion (NO3^-) is 4

user228700

Also, while trying to draw the structure of the azide ion, I discovered that the net charge on a molecule needn't be localized on a single atom; in the azide ion, the central Nitrogen actually has a positive charge, while the two terminal Nitrogen atoms have one negative charge each.

DHMO

which even holds up with the bond order considering molecular orbitals

user228700

@DHMO Now I'm starting to wonder if u made it up just now :-P

DHMO

02:51

@Kaumudi yes, I made it up just now

I wouldn't be surprised if such a rule is already described on the internet

but at least I have never come across it

@Kaumudi how is that not localized?

user228700

@DHMO It's not localized on a single atom.

DHMO

@Kaumudi it is indeed localized

on three atoms, alright

user228700

Yes, on three atoms. I didn't know that this also is a possibility. Anyway, back to my textbook...

DHMO

I thought you mean they are delocalized...

Melanie Shebel

Hello

DHMO

02:57

@MelanieShebel hi

user228700

@DHMO Ah, OK...

user228700

@MelanieShebel Hi :-)

user228700

@DHMO: For an element like mercury, whose atomic number is 80, how do we go about writing the electronic configuration in shells?(2,8,18,32 etc.)

DHMO

@Kaumudi 2,8,18,32,18,2

user228700

We have 20 atoms to fill even after 32 and the total number of atoms that can be accommodated in the next shell is 50.

user228700

03:02

@DHMO Yes, how did u write the last two?

DHMO

@Kaumudi have you learnt orbitals?

user228700

@DHMO Yep.

DHMO

@Kaumudi then use the orbitals

user228700

@DHMO Well, I do know how to write the electronic configuration in terms of orbitals. I was wondering how u wrote that 18, 2 at the end.

DHMO

@Kaumudi write it in orbitals first

user228700

03:04

@DHMO I did...now what?

DHMO

@Kaumudi what is it?

user228700

Ugh, MathJax.

user228700

Hang on...

DHMO

very beautiful $\LaTeX$

:32931561 now, could you sort the list according to the first number, then the type of orbital?

user228700

One sec...

user228700

03:11

$1s^2, 2s^2, 2p^6, 3s^2, 3p^6, 4s^2, 3d^{10}, 4p^6, 5s^2, 4d^{10}, 5p^6, 6s^2, 4f^{14}, 5d^{10}$

user228700

There, that's better.

DHMO

@Kaumudi now, could you sort the list according to the first number, then the type of orbital?

And do you know what the first number means?

user228700

Uhh, well, even w/o sorting, we see that 6 being the last orbital has only 2 electrons, so its valency would be 2...

DHMO

correct

user228700

Now what..?

DHMO

03:14

Do you know what the first number means?

user228700

Yes, of course; it stands for the principal quantum number of the electron; it gives the shell number.

DHMO

so how many electrons are in the fifth shell?

user228700

Ah, 18.

user228700

Okay, I see what u did.

user228700

Thank you! :-D

DHMO

03:17

you're welcome

user228700

04:08

@DHMO: U there?

ringo

@Jan what is the issue with the current answer to your bountied question?

DHMO

@Kaumudi yes, though I'm answering 2 main questions, so expect slower reply, but ask nevertheless.

user228700

@DHMO OK, no problem. Consider $NOCl$. The steric number of the central atom, which is Nitrogen, comes out to be 3, meaning that it has $sp^2$ hybridization.

DHMO

@Kaumudi yes

@Kaumudi Finished answering the first question:

0

A: If sigma bond is stronger than pi, then why bond length for sigma is longer and less energy?

Some points to clarify: Sigma bonds is indeed stronger than pi bonds. Therefore, sigma bonds have a lower energy than pi bonds (although sigma bonds do indeed have a higher dissociation energy than pi bonds). Double bonds (usually) contain $1$ sigma bond and $1$ pi bond. Triple bonds (usually) ...

user228700

However, I don't understand how this works out when considering the excitations and everything.

DHMO

04:11

@Kaumudi could you elaborate on your doubt?

user228700

@DHMO Sure. Give me one second...

user228700

Correct?

DHMO

@Kaumudi correct

user228700

OK, lemme write the excitations thing...

user228700

04:17

user228700

Correct..?

ringo

wuh?

user228700

@ringo Hybridization..?

DHMO

@Kaumudi do you know what hybridization means?

ringo

Are you confusing the concept of hybridization with electron transitions?

user228700

04:20

@ringo No, this is just how I've been taught about it; to have $sp^{anything}$, we need the s-orbital to be half empty.

DHMO

@Kaumudi How many sp2 orbitals are there?

@Kaumudi and no, that's not how that works

user228700

And it's not half-empty, so we promote one of the two electrons to one of the p-orbitals. And then, the s-orbitak can hybridize with any number of p-orbitals to form equivalent number of hybrid orbitals.

user228700

@DHMO Sigh. 3.

DHMO

@Kaumudi nope.

Pretend there's no electrons

how many orbitals are there now? Which orbitals?

3 sp2 orbitals, and what?

now draw them, and don't fill the electrons yet

by "draw" i really mean just draw the boxes

user228700

Just the two rectangles? OK..?

DHMO

04:24

@Kaumudi Just draw them

By the way, I finished my second question:

0

A: Does double or triple bond have higher priority?

According to R-$3.1.1$ of IUPAC, Commission on Nomenclature of Organic Chemistry. A Guide to IUPAC Nomenclature of Organic Compounds (Recommendations 1993), 1993, Blackwell Scientific publications, Copyright 1993 IUPAC: The presence of both double and triple bonds is similarly denoted by e...

user228700

Okay, done. Now what..?

user228700

@DHMO (Y)

DHMO

@Kaumudi now send here

user228700

DHMO

@Kaumudi no, not s x 1 and p x 3

I asked you to draw the boxes for sp2 x 3 and p x 1

user228700

04:29

DHMO

nice, now you can fill electrons according to electron-filling rules

user228700

Can u show me how..?

ringo

Sigh I was just looking around on Math.SE and I saw 1 question with 7 answers

We really don't get that on here

I wonder if it's because there are more ways to approach a math problem than a chemistry problem

DHMO

two rules: (electrons go to)
1. lower energy orbitals before higher energy orbitals
2. empty sub-orbitals before half-filled sub-orbitals

@ringo link?

ringo

15

Q: Proving that the sum of any two sides of the triangle is greater than the third side

I know it's easy to prove with the help of linear inequalities, but this time I want to prove it with the help of trigonometry. Is it possible? If yes, then how?

DHMO

04:33

I'm sure we had a problem with quite many answers here

but I have no idea where it is now

ringo

It was a pretty cool question, with a lot of cool answers

Yeah a few, like why is gold gold and why can you smell HCN but...

I don't know

DHMO

@ringo mathematics and science are too different and two different subjects

ringo

Just checked Area 51, our answer ratio is .9 lower than theirs

DHMO

@ringo because we have more things that we don't know than mathematics

We can't even solve the SE for helium

@Kaumudi are you here?

ringo

@Kaumudi if I can be of any assistance... when more than one bond is formed to one atom, these bonds always lie in p orbitals

user228700

04:38

This is where I'm coming from:

user228700

ringo

Excited... ?

Oh well, hybridization isn't even real

user228700

And this is how it's taught here so I'm positive that it's not incorrect.

user228700

@ringo Yes, excited.

ringo

I wasn't taught that they were excited, I was taught that the orbitals energies changed when they were mixed with other orbitals

DHMO

04:41

@Kaumudi complete bullshit

ringo

I guess that may be referring to the same concept

When 1 s and 2 p orbitals mix, they for 3 hybrid orbitals of degenerate energy, called sp2 orbitals

user228700

@DHMO How are u so sure?! This is how it's taught here, so I'm sure that it's not incorrect!

DHMO

@Kaumudi complete bullshit

user228700

>.<

ringo

Here... just look at this

DHMO

04:47

@ringo I don't think you want to reveal the answer...

ringo

ok

Just thought we could use it as a teaching tool

Maybe another molecule is in order then

DHMO

@Kaumudi do you understand?

Can you do it or do you want the answer?

user228700

@DHMO No, I don't. I'm finding it very difficult to believe that that is "complete bullshit".

DHMO

@Kaumudi $\Huge\mathrm{very\ difficult}$

ringo

lol

DHMO

04:50

@Kaumudi just follow my (our) method, lol

now could you fill in the 5 electrons in the 3 sp2 orbitals and the p orbital?

user228700

@DHMO No! I need to understand why my method is wrong! My textbook doesn't generally spouse bullshit.

ringo

Okay, how I learned it was:

DHMO

@Kaumudi Because, you would get 3 electrons in the 3 sp2 orbitals and 2 electrons in the p orbital according to your method

and then I have no idea how to form a double bond form that

ringo

@JohnRennie welcome!

sorry,

user228700

@JohnRennie: Help help! :-O

ringo

04:53

lol

John Rennie

I'm just looking back to see where this all starts ...

user228700

@DHMO This is how:

ringo

It's a mess...

DHMO

@Kaumudi what's the problem anyway?

John Rennie

This?

15 mins ago, by Kaumudi

user228700

04:54

Yes.

ringo

see I wouldn't say complete bullshit, just maybe a little misworded

DHMO

@Kaumudi how?

John Rennie

Ok, so what's the problem?

DHMO

@ringo but, you see, it wouldn't be dramatic enough

ringo

lol

DHMO

04:55

@JohnRennie the problem is that I said paragraph 2 is complete bullshit and s/he disagrees.

John Rennie

Well in the presence of an external constraint on the geometry the spherical harmonics are no longer eigenfunctions of the Schrodinger equation.

user228700

Right, like u explained yesterday...

DHMO

@ringo but, if I follow my method, I would end up with 5 electrons in the sp2 orbitals and no electron in the p orbital, so no pi bond also

John Rennie

instead we get eigenfunctions that reflect the triangular symmetry

ringo

LOL

John Rennie

04:57

And those eigenfunctions are the $sp^2$ orbitals.

user228700

@JohnRennie Yup.

ringo

@JohnRennie Hybridization has long been disproven by q.m.

It's just a useful teaching tool

DHMO

@ringo what?

there is often s-p mixing in q.m. ...

John Rennie

But we can write the $sp^2$ orbitals as a sum of the spherical harmonics:
$$ \psi_{sp^2} \approx a\psi_{2s} + b\psi_{2p_x} + c\psi_{2p_y}+ ...$$

For some constants $a,b,c,etc$

ringo

In actuality everything mixes. There is no $sp^2$ orbital in q.m.

Every atom is bonded to every other

John Rennie

05:00

When we say the $sp^2$ are hybrid orbitals is just means they can be written as a weighted sum of the spherical harmonics.

DHMO

@ringo In actuality you might see something like $s^{1.5}p^{2.3}$ orbitals, which still count.

user228700

What is happening?!

John Rennie

In reality atomic and molecular orbitals don't exist at all because electron correlation causes them to mix with each other.

It's just a question of how purist you want to be.

ringo

^

Let's just give up on chemistry

John Rennie

At pre-university level I don't think it does any harm to use the approximation that hybrid orbitals exist.

DHMO

05:02

@Kaumudi bullshit is happening

user228700

@DHMO That...doesn't even make sense.

DHMO

@Kaumudi what doesn't?

John Rennie

@DHMO I don't think it's useful to use the term bullshit. It's just a level of approximation, and there are many levels of approximation.

DHMO

@JohnRennie but to her it's just a bunch of bullshit

user228700

I am showing u how my method works, HANG ON!

John Rennie

05:03

Simple approximations like hybrid orbitals have their uses.

DHMO

@Kaumudi you hybridized the wrong p orbitals, lol

user228700

@DHMO To whom?

DHMO

@Kaumudi to you who only cares about the sp2 hybridization, lol

let's go back to the sp2

user228700

@DHMO I am a her, not a him, fyi.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi are you trying to write down an expression for the $sp^2$ orbitals?

DHMO

05:05

@Kaumudi done

user228700

Wait! I will post a picture of what I'm trying to do!

ringo

@JohnRennie no, an orbital diagram

DHMO

@JohnRennie For heaven's sake, she's just trying to figure out how NOCl works, in terms of hybridization

ringo

Wild trip this has been

Not everyday you get a visit from the god of physics.se either

Very nice to have you

DHMO

@ringo every day

John Rennie

05:07

No, I don't visit the Chem chat that often though I'm in the h bar most days.

ringo

😒

John Rennie

I started out as a physical chemist - solid state photochemistry ...

ringo

No kidding

John Rennie

ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.383872

DHMO

@JohnRennie what are the other parts of your name?

John Rennie

05:09

Highly Strung

ringo

LOL

I'm taking p chem next semester. I'm really excited, because I've been told it has a lot of math, which I like

I've only ever really known organic chemistry, so it will be fun to try something new

John Rennie

It was the math that pulled me into physical chemistry. In my final undergrad year I specialised in quantum chemisty.

Melanie Shebel

I'm also taking pchem next semester. I'm looking forward to pchem II more.

user228700

John Rennie

I can recommend a career as a physical chemist as you get to do awesome experiments e.g. neutron diffraction and Rutherford backscattering.

DHMO

05:12

@Kaumudi I think the safer approach is to hybridize before excitation

ringo

@Kaumudi I would draw the $sp^3$ together since they're degenerate in energy

user228700

@DHMO I don't even know how to do this!

John Rennie

@ringo that ^

With tetrahedral symmetry you get four orbitals of the same energy

DHMO

@ringo she's doing the excitation before the hybridization

John Rennie

So you end up with one electron in each orbital

user228700

05:14

@JohnRennie: Did u read that paragraph from my textbook..?

ringo

@MelanieShebel loved your post about computational chemistry, btw

I fought them closing it:)

John Rennie

@Kaumudi Hang on, let me scroll up and have a look ...

Melanie Shebel

I'm trying to clean it up, but I can't figure a way to make it less...

I KNOW it can be done, but I don't know how.

Thank you @ringo

DHMO

ringo

I'm actually in a somewhat similar situation. My computational chemistry degree requires a project as well

John Rennie

05:16

@Kaumudi Ah, OK, I think that first paragraph is being a bit misleading. The symmetry dictates the orbital structure. It isn't the case that you first excite an electron then as a result of this the $sp^2$ orbitals form.

DHMO

ringo

^^^^

user228700

@JohnRennie OK..?

Melanie Shebel

I'm REALLY trying to get an organic chemistry project done before I finish undergrad, but I'm really sick so wet chem is a no-go. I may never be able to do wet chem which scares me because one of the comments on my post said, "honestly though, chemistry is all about getting wet." ... "The future is interdisciplinary. You've got to have both."

user228700

@DHMO How did u end up with $sp^2$ hybridized orbitals that have two electrons each in two of the orbitals?

Melanie Shebel

05:17

I hope that's not the case.

ringo

John Rennie is a pchemist. Maybe he can verify

DHMO

@Kaumudi refer to my electron filling rules

ringo

(by trade)

John Rennie

You have 2 $s$ electrons and 2 $p$ electrons, but as you bring in the three atoms and perturb the symmetry these mix to give you the four $sp^3$ orbitals.

user228700

@JohnRennie So no excitations involved?

John Rennie

05:18

And the electrons occupy these new orbitals

@Kaumudi No

ringo

Do you have to do labwork as a physical chemist @JohnRennie

user228700

@JohnRennie Which electrons?!

DHMO

45 mins ago, by DHMO

two rules: (electrons go to)
1. lower energy orbitals before higher energy orbitals
2. empty sub-orbitals before half-filled sub-orbitals

Melanie Shebel

I made this. Probably dumb, but I think it's hilarious: twitter.com/MelanieShebel/status/783140219520425984

ringo

In all honesty I'm not quite sure what they do aside from math

DHMO

05:19

@Kaumudi all electrons

Melanie Shebel

Lemme just upload the pic.

ringo

BAHAHA

Melanie Shebel

3

user228700

@DHMO Dude, I know these rules! I don't understand which electrons!

DHMO

@Kaumudi all electrons?

John Rennie

05:20

@Kaumudi we generally assume the innermost electrons are little perturbed, so in carbon we ignore changes to the $1s$ orbitals (though they do indeed change) and only consider the $2s$ and $2p$.

You're probably thinking this is all a bit vague, but that's because it's an approximation.

DHMO

let's just use MO, lol

John Rennie

The vagueness creeps in because we aren't using a fully rigorous approach.

user228700

@JohnRennie Right. Okay, this is not how we've been taught! We aren't taught about the steric number in school; we do this excitation business to figure out what type of hybridization is involved.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi and that's OK. All of education involves discovering that what you were taught before wasn't strictly true.

DHMO

@Kaumudi you should determine the hybridization from the geometry instead

John Rennie

05:22

But the approximations are used because they're a good way to learn. You can't start out learning Hartree-Foch-CI theory.

user228700

@JohnRennie Sigh. I guess. God, I am so mad at my high school!

DHMO

@JohnRennie Are you familiar with MOT?

user228700

@DHMO Write the Lewis structure, figure out geometry from VSEPR, then figure out hybridization accordingly?

ringo

@Kaumudi Just think of it as a foundation

DHMO

@Kaumudi yes. then you would have stacked a false theory (hybridization) on a false theory (VSEPR) on a false theory (Lewis structure)

John Rennie

05:24

@DHMO MOT?

ringo

Molecular Orbital Theory

John Rennie

Ah, yes.

user228700

@DHMO Lol.

DHMO

@JohnRennie Are you familiar with MOT?

John Rennie

@DHMO Yes

user228700

05:25

OK, thanks, all three of u!

DHMO

@JohnRennie how do I stack any orbitals together at all to create anything with D3h symmetry?

John Rennie

I can't remember what D3h is - that's the symmetry of an equilateral triangle isn't it?

DHMO

@JohnRennie yes

or anything with tetrahedral symmetry?

or do I need to rely on degerate orbitals?

John Rennie

I'm not sure what you're asking. That sounds more like LCAO.

In MO we just calculate eigenfunctions for the whole molecule.

DHMO

@JohnRennie yes, I'm asking about LCAO

@JohnRennie could you teach me?

John Rennie

05:29

So you're asking how to construct $sp^2$ type orbitals from the spherical harmonics?

DHMO

@JohnRennie not sure what you mean by sp2-type orbitals

John Rennie

Orbitals with a triangular symmetry

As in: $$ \psi_{sp^2} \approx a\psi_{2s} + b\psi_{2p_x} + c\psi_{2p_y}+ ...$$

DHMO

@JohnRennie so we are still relying on degenerate orbitals?

Melanie Shebel

Man, this chat is hoppin!

John Rennie

Well LCAO involves contructing approximate bonding orbitals by combining atomic orbitals. And the atomic orbitals are approximately the hydrogenic orbitals.

ringo

05:34

You know what they say about teaching hybridization

DHMO

@JohnRennie yes

John Rennie

So the question is how to construct orbitals with a triangular symmetry starting from the hydrogenic orbitals that don't have any triangular symettry.

And the answer is ...

... I can't remember :-)

To be fair I learned this stuff nearly forty years ago.

I'm sure that nice Mr Google could find out though.

Melanie Shebel

Oh wow, one of my old questions on Chem.SE is THE MOST viewed question on chem.se. It was on finding hybridization. My very second question on the site. That's an awesome feel!

DHMO

@MelanieShebel link?

Melanie Shebel

27

Q: How do I figure out the hybridization of a particular atom in a molecule?

I'm learning how to apply the VSEPR theory to Lewis structures and in my homework I'm being asked to provide the hybridization of the central atom in each Lewis structure I've drawn. I've drawn out the Lewis structure for all the required compounds and figured out the arrangements of the electro...

hybridization vsepr-theory

So long ago, before I even changed my major to chem. (From communication hahahahaha!)

John Rennie

05:39

@ringo physical chemistry is a huge field. I did a mixture of wet chemistry and working with high tech kit. You can choose whatever subfield you prefer to do your PhD.

After my PhD I moved on to colloid science and that was lots of bench work.

Melanie Shebel

@ringo I don't understand why this one isn't being voted to close: chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/6720/…

John Rennie

But some of my contemporaries went into surface spectroscopy and that was all ultrahigh vacuum stuff.

Melanie Shebel

So I must be doing something with my wording on my orgo/comp question that's getting close votes.

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

@DHMO yes

user228700

@DHMO: U still here?

DHMO

05:48

@Kaumudi yes

user228700

OK, I'm doing it the way u had asked me to.

user228700

$CO_3^{-2}$

user228700

Here:

user228700

And this is wrong, because I need to fill that p orbital too?

DHMO

05:52

yes

user228700

(Y)

Loong

@MelanieShebel different times, different users; and Chemistry was a small beta site then

Melanie Shebel

True that

Loong

For example, we have just found this comment:

Hi Josh, and welcome to Chemistry Stack Exchange! On homework questions, we usually prefer to give a hint rather than a direct solution… — F'x Oct 25 '12 at 7:27

Today, the community thinks that we don't want "hints" as answers.

DHMO

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp wow, nice

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

05:58

@DHMO no, nothing special ... believe me

DHMO

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp how did you draw them?

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

mathematica

DHMO

I see

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

but actually, I don’t know what you want to show with them

DHMO

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp how the orbitals combine together

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

06:00

@DHMO but then the resulting MOs are more interesting, than the pure AOs

DHMO

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp could you draw them?

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

I am repeating another calculation j4f

user228700

@DHMO: How would u do it for $SO_3$?!

user228700

Here:

user228700

DHMO

06:11

@Kaumudi You know, sp3d2

user228700

But:

user228700

Melanie Shebel

I need to start thinking about grad school. :S

user228700

Those are all examples of $sp^2$! :>.<

DHMO

8

A: Why is the bond order in the SO₃ molecule 1.33 and not 2?

The bonding situation in $\ce{SO3}$ is a tough nut to understand. In a historical context this molecule belongs to the species of hypervalent molecules, that disobey the octet rule. The concept of hypervalence is still very much debated. Recently there was a question raised by ron, seeking for mo...

Let's talk about quantum mechanics

user228700

06:17

@DHMO Are u talking to me in particular?

DHMO

@Kaumudi yes

user228700

I don't have any time to talk about QM :/

DHMO

@Kaumudi did you read the answer?

user228700

I did, but I didn't understand very much.

user228700

Never mind. I'ma do something else for awhile. Thanks.

DHMO

06:30

You're welcome

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

07:06

@Rubisco now I have to think of Romanesco ... thank you

Rubisco

07:38

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp You need to stop thinking of things.

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

@Rubisco good point

Hippalectryon

08:52

@9-BBN Pas vraiment mais il y a de la bio pour ceux qui veulent. Pour l'instant je suis en stage mili pour 6 mois.

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

@Hippalectryon what is stage mili?

Hippalectryon

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp stage militaire. An "internship" in a military place

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

are you forced to or do you want to?

Hippalectryon

@pH13-YetanotherPhilipp Kind of forced to :-) the school I went in has a mandatory internship for th 6 first months, and there are not enough places in civil internships for all those who want one

pH13 - Yet another Philipp

not nice :/

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