Documentation Beta - 2015-11-12

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Sam

00:45

Gonna head off for the night, all the best guys. :)

Kevin Montrose

'night

Chris Jester-Young

@KevinMontrose I like the operator overload topic too, but I had to make a couple of changes to make that example self-contained. :-)

5 hours later…

Jarrod Dixon

05:30

9 hours ago, by Lucas Trzesniewski

Hmm... Comments on proposed changes would be nice (eg for asking a clarification)

working on this - great idea @LucasTrzesniewski

3 hours later…

Konamiman

08:05

Good mornight! I have submitted the "C# 6 features" topic for review.

James Thorpe

08:48

@Konamiman First example - should it be if(greeted == null)?

There really needs to be comments on reviews, or even better the equivalent of "accept & improve"

Konamiman

09:08

@JamesThorpe Indeed! At first I used "name" but changed it because "nameof(name)" looked confusing. Agreed with the need for comments on reviews.

Well, that's funny: I can't find how to edit my own changes

2 hours later…

CodeCaster

11:15

For moderation purposes: please display reject reasons up fron. A reviewer before you might have seen something that you missed, causing you to accept an invalid or incomplete suggestion.

front*

2 hours later…

Maurice Stam

13:02

Hi all. I've joined the beta as well.

Sam

Hiya

Maurice Stam

Thumbs up for the work already done by the devs for the engine.

Sam

13:42

Quick question regarding this post. Me and another user agreed that there should be an FR to make voting easier to find on requested topics, but we're unsure if editing the mentioned post would be best, or if we should just post a new question.

1 hour later…

Kurtis Beavers

15:08

@Sam I'd go ahead and ask it in another question. Voting on topic requests directly from the lists is a good idea (as a matter of fact it's already on the list of planned features), but wouldn't hurt to have a record of the discussion and any other ideas that might come from it.

Sam

Sure, ok.

Sam

15:32

@DLeh You may want to remove the last line from your proposal‌.

(Coincidentally just happened to me too.)

Sam

15:47

How should we go about adding a topic on keywords in C#?

I mean, should we list them out and link them (all under one "example") to their dedicated topic (if they have one), or should we just create a small example per word?

Kevin Montrose

16:03

Probably make a topic w/ all the keywords listed in remarks + a couple examples that use several of them; then link out to other new topics for those that need more detail / examples.

There's probably no need for them to be 1-to-1 either, like as & is could conceivably be one topic.

(sort of shooting from the hip on that one)

Sam

Yeah, that sounds better.

James Thorpe

Couple of things stemming from this: docs-beta.stackexchange.com/questions/40/…

Someone has seemingly dismissed my topic request - I certainly can see no trace of it anywhere anymore, is it on a todo list to be able to see dismissed requests, or be notified of dismissal etc?

And the requested topics count is still showing 5, when it's now back down to 4

Kevin Montrose

@JamesThorpe yeah, inbox notifications are coming; so is a user profile tab

inbox probably first, maybe as part of @JarrodDixon's proposed change comments feature

@JamesThorpe status-caching

James Thorpe

ok - will the dashboard page itself have a history of dismissed topic requests? one of the reasons for dismissal is that it's a duplicate, if something is requested repeatedly (which you'd think is a good reason to make it!) but is decided it's still not worth it, it may be handy to link back to the original dismissal?

@KevinMontrose Figured it would be - I see it's back to 4 again now

Kevin Montrose

16:23

@JamesThorpe we'll have to stash history somewhere, not quite sure yet where though. Depends how important it ends up being, which is hard to tell so early in the days of "actual use".

James Thorpe

@KevinMontrose Ok. I think in the context of being open and transparent about what's happened to each post (as per existing functionality in Q&A) it's important, but in the context of it being old trash that no-one really needs to see anymore, it's not so important

Kevin Montrose

yeah, it'll definitely be somewhere eventually; there's lots of history not being exposed yet just 'cause we haven't gotten around to it / figured it out

things like handled flags, rejected changes, old drafts, all not really exposed yet

James Thorpe

right

Maurice Stam

16:39

user image

I am exploring the usage of headers in my sections.

The 'remarks' is the official header. However the available headers as styled by the stylesheet are a little bit in conflict regarding their sizes. Is this worth a bug report or am I missing something?

Anna Lear

@MauriceStam Can't hurt to report - this is what a beta's for. :)

Maurice Stam

Sure thanks

1 hour later…

Sam

17:55

Hey Jon

Jon Clements

hi

Jon Ericson

hi

Sam

Lol, didn't realise there's two Jons here.

Jon Clements

Well - it's such a great name (not that I'm biased) - the more the merrier :)

Chris Jester-Young

@Sam Jon Skeet is a Jon too, albeit not in this room currently. :-P

Kevin Montrose

17:58

another round of fixes rolling out

Sam

\o/

Jon Ericson

It's all fun and games until someone pings @Jon.

Sam

@ChrisJester-Young If he were, his army of AIs would've completed the C#/.NET docs already.

Chris Jester-Young

@JonClements The only thing separating you from a well-known Racketeer is the "h":

John Clements, San Luis Obispo, CA

8.7k 13 32

scheme racket lisp list functional-programming recursion sicp

Jon Clements

Jonathan Clements

Jonathan Clements (born 9 July 1971) is a British author and scriptwriter. His non-fiction works include biographies of Confucius, Koxinga and Qin Shi Huangdi (the First Emperor of China), as well as monthly opinion columns for Neo magazine. He is also the co-author of encyclopedias of anime and Japanese television dramas. == Background == Clements speaks both Chinese and Japanese, and many of his works relate to East Asia. He wrote his Master's degree at the University of Stirling on manga and anime exports, predicting the rise of several trends in the international industry including back-to...

I normally get confused with that guy ^^^ @ChrisJester-Young :p

Chris Jester-Young

18:01

;-)

Jean-François Côté

Is this normal that there is only documentation for .NET? I was looking to contribute to java or play framework documentation...

Chris Jester-Young

@Jean-FrançoisCôté I'd be the first to write docs for Java once that's opened up.

(What, Stack Overflow employees that write Java? Yes, they exist, though they don't code Java at work.)

Sam

Huh, I've just noticed there's only 4 people in here that aren't mods.

Feels like a mod room :p

Jean-François Côté

Ok nice to know! I was afraid that they put me in a .NET section only.

do you know why they open it only for .NET for now?

Sam

Probably because SE works with C#/.NET

Kevin Montrose

18:04

most signups were for .net and c#; started with the most popular option

it'll probably be a week or two before java (and maybe Android? need to crunch the numbers) open up

Jean-François Côté

ok! I probably answer that myself... but these day i code more java than c#

thanks for theses answers and good luck :)

Sam

@KevinMontrose And yet there's only <150 users registered?

Kevin Montrose

102 invites have gone out now

we didn't invite everyone who signed up for c# and .net

Sam

Are the invites random?

Kevin Montrose

semi-random

Sam

18:06

Oh?

Kevin Montrose

early on I'm filtering out anyone who hasn't answered in one of the tags they signed up for, and anyone who's ever been suspended

then there's a little bit of bucketing by rep, within the buckets I'm choosing randomly

eventually everyone who signed up will get in to the beta, but being just a little selective in the first few waves

Sam

@KevinMontrose So no unicorn consulting?

Anna Lear

We ask a badger instead, but for some reason the only answer we get is "I don't care, do whatever you want"

3

Sam

Can I ask what the number at the end of every share link is used for?

Example: [...]documentation/c%23/18/operators/30/overloadable-operators#t=20151112181457‌1148518

Kevin Montrose

date of link generation

(sort of, date of last edit more often)

Sam

18:16

Oh, right.

Kevin Montrose

used to allow copy/pasted links (into say source) to refer to the page as it existed when the link was generated

docs-beta.stackexchange.com/documentation/c%23/20/…

Chris Jester-Young

@KevinMontrose Does our client-side code use that for anything? Or is it just to make links purple/blue?

Kevin Montrose

user image

Sam

@KevinMontrose That's cool.

Kevin Montrose

@ChrisJester-Young nothing yet

Chris Jester-Young

18:18

*nods*

Kevin Montrose

@Sam I feel like every dev has had a page linked in a source comment disappear or radically restructure on them

MSDN and Oracle come to mind personally

really irritating, and we have to have history anyway sooooo... #t=...

Sam

Yeah, I know the feeling.

Will we be able to see votes (UVs vs. DVs) on examples, like on posts?

Kevin Montrose

yeah

Sam

ok

James Thorpe

19:00

I reported a bug that got fixed last night (docs-beta.stackexchange.com/questions/5/what-needs-improvement) - I'm seeing it say there's 1 flag again now (has been for a while) - are the number of flags being heavily cached and there's nothing to deal with, or is there still an issue?

Sam

@JamesThorpe Seeing the same here.

I wonder if it's a permissions issue more than anything else.

Kevin Montrose

@JarrodDixon ^

Sam

Since StackExchange.Redis has 4 flags, yet I can't see any of them.

And Dapper.NET with 8 flags, but only 1's visible.

Kevin Montrose

or heck, flags; @AnnaLear ^ could take a look

Anna Lear

yep yep, will do in a sec here

I have a lot of feelings about our current flag display

1 hour later…

James Thorpe

20:22

Anyone around to confirm something I'm seeing at the mo?

I think I may have spotted what this errant .net flag is, but it's wierd

Sam

@JamesThorpe Yup

James Thorpe

So .NET still claims to have 1 flag / 1 needs improvement, but nothing showing

If you go to this page: docs-beta.stackexchange.com/documentation/.net/14/…

and hit edit on, say, Remarks

then scroll up a bit - there's a yellow "flag" box on the "installing" example with a "handle flag" button

if you click the button, it just disappears, nothing else seems to happen.

if you discard your edit, then go back to it again, the button is back

unless it's just me...

Sam

Yeah, I'm seeing the same here

Kevin Montrose

some more fixes coming in the next build

James Thorpe

ok. I keep getting this occasionally too:

user image

Kevin Montrose

20:32

hmmm

James Thorpe

not found anything that causes it reliably yet so not reported it, but it's definitely happening. On Chrome and has happened on two different PCs

when it appears it's fixed in the top left - rest of the page scrolls behind it

Kevin Montrose

yeah, I believe it; it's positioned in JS, wouldn't surprise me if there are some bugs

probably a bug in measuring original padding or something

James Thorpe

I'm wondering if it should be there at all actually? When it's not mispositioned, it's not actually on screen anywhere?

Kevin Montrose

if the editor is displayed it should show up, though sometimes takes a round trip to get a draft list depending on how the editor was loaded

James Thorpe

ok - in that case I'm either not seeing it ever, or it's mispositioned

Kevin Montrose

20:48

random thought: what size is your browser window?

James Thorpe

Right now, 1480x820 - will play with others

Undo

What's the plan for when the next batch of invites will go out, if you don't mind me asking?

Kevin Montrose

we've got a couple features in dev I'd like to get deployed first: proposed change comments, "others editing/handling flag/responding to request" notices in the editor, and flagging improvements

maybe sneak some inbox stuff in too

so probably a week - week and a half

James Thorpe

ah - I have to actually hit save draft to make it appear, sorry - didn't realise that. In that case, the bug is that it's randomly appearing in the wrong place before I've hit save draft. Let me see if I can make it appear in the wrong place again, then see if it get put in the right place when I save the draft

Kevin Montrose

next wave will probably also be around 100 C# and .NET folks

James Thorpe

20:59

Right now it seems like I can't click the edit link right next to an example - I get Uncaught ReferenceError: changesMade is not defined, then depending on screen width I either don't see (when wide) the editor appear at the bottom, or I get (when narrow) an in-place markdown editor right where the example is, and in this situation repeatedly clicking the edit makes more copies of the editor toolbar buttons appear:

user image

Kevin Montrose

derp

didn't think that bug got deployed, gonna see if we can't build now...

Sam

Is there a way to edit one of my proposed changes for a new topic?

Atm I can't find any way to edit this.

Kevin Montrose

if you're looking at the draft you can retract it... though now that I think on it, I bet that UX isn't exposed on the proposed change page

one sec

@Sam docs-beta.stackexchange.com/documentation/c%23/drafts/330

Sam

Great, thanks.

Kevin Montrose

yeah, need to expose that... making a note

Sam

21:04

How did you get that btw?

Kevin Montrose

looked up the route in the codebase -_-

Sam

Right, nothing I could've done then.

Is it worth writing up a bug report?

Kevin Montrose

sure, gives us a place to mark status-completed when a fix goes out

James Thorpe

Sam raised a question earlier about links to subheadings in things like remarks sections: docs-beta.stackexchange.com/questions/38/…

Sam

@KevinMontrose Ok

James Thorpe

21:08

I'm currently looking at this page: docs-beta.stackexchange.com/documentation/c%23/18/…

If I click edit next to the operator precedence header, it "fails to load the remarks subsection"

So, should those be editable like that, with the permalink showing next to it, or is there a bug in that <h> tags are being presented as editable/permalinkable, when in fact they shouldn't be

Sam

@JamesThorpe Same here

Kevin Montrose

subsections in Remarks should be editable

Sam

Lol, found more bugs

Sometimes I wish I could just post screenshots with bug slapped on.

James Thorpe

Those sorts of reports wouldn't go down well in our bug tracking system :)

Kevin Montrose

another round of fixes just rolled out

James Thorpe

21:17

that fixed the example editing

Anonymous

When the site launches presumably the beta documentation content will be migrated. Are the q/a posts also going to be migrated (to a meta), or will they just be deleted?

James Thorpe

the "handle this flag" button in the middle of editing is still there though

Sam

Oh, nice

Text MD is rendered on edits now. \o/

Kevin Montrose

@JeremyBanks some select Q&A posts may be migrated, most of them are getting tossed though

pre-release bug reports aren't worth saving I don't think

though they'll probably end up in a data dump like a shutdown se 2.0 site

Anonymous

Makes sense, thanks.

Sam

21:20

How will rep/badges be migrated (if at all)?

Kevin Montrose

Q&A rep won't be migrated (meta.SO doesn't have rep, so there's nowhere to migrate it to); Documentation rep will make the jump, but we have to design & build it first so I can't really say what it'll look like

Sam

Okie dokie

Anna Lear

@KevinMontrose we could/should probably migrate some feature requests and whatnot at the end of beta, but it won't affect rep or anything, as you said

Kevin Montrose

yeah "select Q&A posts"

like, if big decisions were made or features documented or norms established

Anna Lear

oh, I should've read up

James Thorpe

21:23

@AnnaLear surely all the requested features will be in place by the end of the beta :)

Kevin Montrose

bug and feature-request... not so much

Anna Lear

whistles innocently

Kevin Montrose

some discussion is definitely possible

Anna Lear

@KevinMontrose I can see being extra selective about those, but there could be things like "we still want to do this, but it ain't happening in beta at this point"

Kevin Montrose

it's possible, sure

you could also just build the features faster @AnnaLear ಠ_ಠ

Anna Lear

21:25

what a crazy idea

Sam

@KevinMontrose So will all contributions prior to rep being introduced be backdated?

Kevin Montrose

yes

James Thorpe

argh - I think I just saw what was causing that flag box to popup, but it's now been possible to handle the flag in the latest build so someone evidently now has done and I can't reproduce it

Sam

ok

James Thorpe

So I'd been seeing that there was 1 flag needing to be handled, and up above I described being able to see a strange box when editing a topic with a button that does nothing.

well, in the latest one, it was still there

however, on the main topic page under the needs improvement, the same thing was now present with a "handle flag" button, which took me to the same box, but with 3 different buttons on it

I'm guessing that the original "handle flag" button that appears when editing should be replaced with the 3 buttons?

(when clicked)

the yellow box has now gone when editing the topic, and the "handle flag" button on the main topic page is a 404 (presumably because it's been handled, but it's still being displayed because of caching)

Kevin Montrose

21:30

no, the intention is that you handle it with draft you're already working on, but I'm guessing that's sort of unclear

flow is:
- go here: http://docs-beta.stackexchange.com/documentation/.net/14/introduction-to-net/25/installing
- click edit (anywhere)
- that loads flags, to offer the option to handle them with your edit
- submit edit

the 404 sounds like a bug... I'm aware of one with flag handling

James Thorpe

So what was the "handle this flag" button? It just disappeared when clicked without appearing to do anything?

Kevin Montrose

it added a bit to the draft that said "I'm handling this flag with my draft"

but yeah, confusing

James Thorpe

ok

Kevin Montrose

should probably replace the "handle button" with explanation text; something like "you are handling this flag with this draft" or something

James Thorpe

right

Kevin Montrose

21:33

@AnnaLear ^ or whatever you think makes sense there

I think... @Shog9 proposed the behavior first?

James Thorpe

FWIW, the 404 I'm seeing is from this page on the handle flag button

Kevin Montrose

yeah, it works for me but I'm betting the bug has to do with you owning some draft or change somewhere

will take a look

James Thorpe

ah ok

right - had another tab open with an edit in, discarded that and I can see it again now, and have the 3 buttons back on the inline flag

Kevin Montrose

ah

yesterday, by Kevin Montrose

the universal [status-

Anna Lear

hmm

Shog9

21:49

IMHO, default behavior should be to handle flags, so should not be a button; opt-out with checkbox maybe.

Kevin Montrose

9 vs Lear: Fight

Anna Lear

ehhhh I don't hate that

depends on when the flag handling happens - on draft approval or on draft submission

Kevin Montrose

marked handled on submission, if rejected the flag is reopened

Jarrod Dixon

@KevinMontrose yep, or something in the proposed change review that asks the reviewer "does this change handle these flags?"

or maybe checkboxes next to each flag? allows selecting which flags get handled

that was how i originally envisioned it cc @Shog9 - a proposed change would put the onus on the reviewer to answer "which flags are still valid?"

or "which flags have been handled by this change?"

Kevin Montrose

tricky to convey "don't reject an edit that doesn't fix all the flags" in that model; which is weird if the editor never even saw the flags

Anna Lear

21:58

we'd exclude "other" flags that the editor wouldn't have seen

Shog9

Sure, but yes by default - assumption should be that if you saw the flags then you fixed them unless you say other wise

Anna Lear

I kinda like the idea of potentially handling some flags and not others - but that can also be handled by dismissing invalid flags individually

Kevin Montrose

right now we record the flags you saw and clicked a button next to

reported problem is "just clicking handle, then popping the editor up" is a tad confusing

should at least replace it with some explanation text

Anna Lear

I'll play around with a few flows and see what looks good

Sam

Is there much point in linking this text to the summary tab?

user image

Kevin Montrose

22:16

I suppose not

@JamesThorpe that shouldn't 404 anymore, though I doubt it'll prompt properly for handling the flag either

Sam

22:53

Is there going to be a post where we can chip in ideas for rep from contributing to docs?

Adam Lear

@Sam feel free to start one

Sam

Ok

Sam

23:29

And done. The post's kinda small for what it represents, but I couldn't think of anything else to include.

Kurtis Beavers

I'm sure more will be contributed to that post soon.

Sam

Yeah :)

What's the "worst" tab for?

And how is worse-ness measured?

Adam Lear

23:44

in tears

6

(but seriously, I don't actually know off the top of my head)

Jon Chan

is there a way to participate in the beta on prod yet?

Adam Lear

@JonChan docs-beta.stackexchange.com. It's a private beta like any other.

you should also have an email from Kevin from a few days back that has instructions

Sam

@AdamLear Alright, np

Adam Lear

@Sam that also sounds like a great topic for a meta post :) (mostly so I don't forget to look it up later, and others might have the same question)

on that note, heading out for a while. dinner time.

Sam

Yeah, I'll probably write something up tomorrow, it's getting late here.

Enjoy your meal.

Adam Lear

23:55

thanks. later!

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Documentation Beta

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