The Water Cooler

12:31 AM

@Magisch If only one moderator is needed, I'd rather it be you. If you run, I'll vote for you. You'll be a good moderator.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

3:21 AM

0

Q: Does a data analyst need office macro programming skills?

Suppose one wants to work as a data scientist. How important it is to learn Excel or Libre office programming (macros), or is it enough to learn R or Python well? My question is, how should someone determine what skills are relevant to focus on learning, when preparing for a new career?

skills

4 votes to reopen, can we get a fifth?

motosubatsu

10:05 AM

@MisterPositive not decided yet.. there's a possibility that I might be taking on some significant extra work IRL which is a factor and honestly I'm still unconvinced about the future of SE-moderator relations

Magisch

mind you, if you run and win and then need to become less active they can call up someone else

unless it happens several months after

Lucas F.

11:15 AM

Good day everyone

I have a quick question regarding the phrasing of a question I'm about to ask

How should I refer to somebody who is mentally handicapped? Is there a more politically correct expression?

I read a similar question, where several people strongly suggested not to use the words "mentally impaired", yet offered no alternatives

motosubatsu

@LucasF. hmm.. tricky one, can you say what the condition is?

Lucas F.

@motosubatsu Back then, you would have referred to this person as "a simple mind", which is certainly not politically correct these days

I found the term "intellectually disabled", which may fit somewhat

The general description of that person is that he struggles to understand complex instructions, and generally has problems to focus on one task.

For example, he could be told "Bring this package to the 5th floor, room A512"

And a while later, he'd be found somewhere else in the building, playing with his phone

When asked what he is doing, he'd say he doesn't know. When asked where the package is, he says he doesn't know.

motosubatsu

11:38 AM

@LucasF. intellectually disabled sounds reasonable enough - some might prefer the word "challenged" but I think disabled may be more appropriate here as it will convey that the person's condition may bring certain workplace protections

Lucas F.

I have to admit I know next to nothing about disabilities

I used to work with a blind person for several months, but he always just referred to himself as "blind"

As for mental disabilities, I have heard all kinds of terms being used, such as "mentally handicapped", "mentally disabled", "neuro-atypical", etc.

motosubatsu

@LucasF. yeah it's not an area that lends itself to an easy answer - especially since some, erm, unpleasant folks use various terms in ways that can be hurtful

Lucas F.

I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm just a little scared people would think that of me

Such as "This person used this term and that's bad and that person is bad! We should call him out for obviously hating people with disabilities"

motosubatsu

@LucasF. I think you'll be okay.. having read your question it seems to me that you approached the topic with a great deal of sensitivity and respect

Lucas F.

@motosubatsu Thank you, I did as much research as I could to use the terminology that at least some larger institute considers appropriate

motosubatsu

11:46 AM

(and for what it's worth that's is coming from the perspective of someone who falls solidly under the neuro-atypical heading)

Magisch

@motosubatsu Intellectually challenged has a huge insulting undertone

intellectually disabled does not

in my perspective

Lucas F.

The Irish NDA claims that "mentally handicapped" is a term no longer in use (which is what I would have used originally), and suggests "intellectually disabled" instead

motosubatsu

@Magisch interesting.. there may be a cultural/regional difference at play here, I've frequently seen "challenged" promoted as a less insulting term here in the UK

Lucas F.

The language used here is certainly a lot "rougher", given how the US have aimed to become a lot more politically correct in their language. Similar movements have gotten a lot less traction here

Magisch

all the euphemisms (handicapped, challenged, slow, etc) are at least around here seen as dismissive and insulting.

Lucas F.

11:50 AM

Terms such as "simple mind" are widely accepted among the population, even if they'd be considered insulting in the US

motosubatsu

@Magisch good to know.. certainly "handicapped" and "slow" are here too but I will be sure to avoid "challenged" in international contexts as well, tbh it's not a term I used overmuch anyway

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

12:35 PM

@LucasF. It's sad that you can no longer use actual, clinical terms, isn't it?

Pointy Haired Boss

0

Q: Taking a sabbatical as a Physics undergrad and getting a coding/data analysis job

I am not very sure if this is the right place to ask the question, but I can't find a more appropriate site. Any information regarding this would be useful. I am a 24 years old Physics undergrad from Spain. I studied a different degree for three years —Chemistry—, but I ended up switching to Phy...

discussion specific-question

Joe Strazzere

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica What actual, clinical term would you suggest?

Magisch

I'd think "intellectually disabled" is a rather neutral, clinical like term, which is why it is being used widely

Lucas F.

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I'm not involved in politics. I know some conservatives take offense that the terms we've all been using since we were children are all of a sudden, which is a reasonable stance. I mean, most people don't mean offense when they say "a mentally handicapped" person, but they're sometimes portrayed as such.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@Magisch that's wildly inaccurate description

Lucas F.

12:41 PM

I don't want to offend, and I don't take offense when none was intended.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@LucasF. I'm autistic, and both of my children have problems as well. I'm no fan of these terms getting constantly bandied about, and people taking offense just to take offense.

@JoeStrazzere Whatever term applies. These overly vague terms, geared at being inoffensive just cause trouble. Take Autism for example. I find the term "On the spectrum" completely useless.

Lucas F.

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I understand what you mean. I personally oppose this culture of "everything is offensive", especially when something is a harmless joke.

I personally could not care less if someone would make jokes about my nationality, wear their hair in a certain way or eat some specific food that is typically associated with another ethnic group.

avazula

chimes in I'm disabled (autistic) and have been educating myself on the matter recently. From what I've read, the decent thing to do is to call disabled people ... disabled. Nothing less, nothing more.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@LucasF. I make a good deal many jokes at my own expense, and I have been dinged for using the term "autistic shrieking", because people might get offended, and when I mentioned that I, in fact am autistic, I was condescendingly told that I didn't know what was offensive

Lucas F.

I miss the time when politics was about actual issues, like how homelessness can be reduced, how to combat climate change and what kind of foreign policy a country should have, and less about how offended people are

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

12:46 PM

@avazula Disabled means useless.

avazula

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica darn that's harsh.

Lucas F.

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I find it strange how some people feel offended on behalf of others. As if it's necessarily for at least someone to feel offended.

avazula

Why wouldn't you be allowed to make fun of yourself as long as you don't mess with other people?

Lucas F.

@avazula I assume because other disabled people "may" take offense at how he uses the term "autistic shrieking"

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@LucasF. and that is the most insulting thing of all. If you get offended on someone else's behalf, you are saying that they are not capable of knowing what is offensive to them

avazula

12:48 PM

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I'm not talking about the terminology, I'm just saying that's how most people with handicaps want to be called. Disabled, for me, pretty much describes how often society doesn't take our difference and needs into account and is rather focused on one category of people and leave the others behind.

In that sense, it's society that isn't suited, not us.

Lucas F.

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I have the same opinion. I think people are able to speak for themselves.

motosubatsu

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica really? the DSM V uses the term. I'd say that's pretty "clinical"

Mister Positive

@motosubatsu Read my answer to Joe's question for some additional perspective.

Lucas F.

If many disabled people say they dislike the term "crippled", I respect that and avoid using that term

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@avazula Handicap is the better term. A handicap is an impediment, if something is disabled, it no longer works

Lucas F.

12:49 PM

However, if abled people get together and decide that now it's offensive to disabled people to call them "disabled people", then I oppose that.

avazula

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica so it's correct English to say handicapped people?

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@avazula, yes until someone get's a hair up their backside over it.

Lucas F.

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica According to the Irish NDA "people with disabilities" is a proper term

I think at some point this whole discussion devolves into discussing terms so similar that any perceived difference between them is too miniscule to matter

avazula

well I guess in Ireland it's how we should refer to them (us) then...

motosubatsu

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I wouldn't try that in the UK btw.. "handicap(ped)" is considered so offensive here that the government explicitly tells people to avoid it

Lucas F.

12:51 PM

It's different worldwide, I assume

avazula

I don't like the "with disabilities" because it kinda implies I could let my handicap aside. Which I obviously can't :D

Lucas F.

Different terms are accepted by different cultures.

avazula

@motosubatsu o_o

Lucas F.

The term "simple minded", for example, is probably highly offensive in some parts of the world, but generally accepted here

Mister Positive

For what is worth, I just try to refer to people by their chosen name. I avoid gender and any other attributes as its typically not necessary.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

12:52 PM

I am old enough to have witnessed the use of the term "crippled" replaced with "handicapped", because "Crippled" was offensive, then "handicapped" replaced with "disabled" because THAT was offensive, then disabled became offensive...

Mister Positive

In the US, simple minded is highly offensive.

FWIW

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@motosubatsu yes. The UK doesn't have free speech. I'd likely get arrested in ten minutes of landing

@LucasF. I don't understand why :simple minded: is offensive.

It's very descriptive, and helpful.

That very accurately describes my youngest

Lucas F.

I don't know. I'm not in the position to judge whether or not it offends some people

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

My youngest cannot put together complex concepts. She has had a traumatic brain injury, and that affects her processing. The best thing to do when talking to her is to keep things simple

Lucas F.

I personally don't know anyone offended by it, and I know some people to whom this description may more or less fit

avazula

12:55 PM

Offense is very difficult to judge.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@avazula offense cannot be given, only taken

Lucas F.

@avazula Agreed, and also there is the question to which regard offense should even be cared about

avazula

erhhh

Lucas F.

If I were to play Devil's Advocate, I could claim that any arbitrary phrase or word is offensive to me.

Would this be a "valid" reason to forbid that word or phrase?

avazula

I think at least we have to try to use the terms the people in question they want us to use and correct accordingly if we make a mistake

Lucas F.

12:57 PM

How many people need to "feel offended" for something to become "offensive"?

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

I think someone wrote a book on the subject of sanitizing speech

Lucas F.

@avazula That's a reasonable stance, although again the question arises how far you'd go in doing so.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

Lucas F.

I could, for example, claim that the sound of vowels is offensive to me.

avazula

@LucasF. well at least you try?

Lucas F.

12:58 PM

How far would one go in trying to accommodate me? Would one ban all vowels around me?

avazula

@LucasF. vowels don't have any negative connotations attached to them. "Disabled" has. I think there's the difference.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@LucasF. I made that point about autism, because so many "advocates" argue about the terminology...

Lucas F.

@avazula This is my point. They are negative to me. Is one individual's offense not enough?

At which point does it become enough?

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@avazula is the word "Aspie" offensive?

Lucas F.

"Being offended" is a very subjective experience, and it is nigh impossible to make sure nobody feels offended.

avazula

1:01 PM

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I've seen some people be offended by it for two reasons: one being that it separates Aspergers people from autistic people (whereas both are on the ASD spectrum) and the second being because of Hans Aspergers' business with the nazis.

Lucas F.

Words can be taken as offense, even if no offense was intended. The word "gay" can be used as an insult, though it doesn't necessarily need to be. I know plenty of people who use the term "gay" to refer to male homosexuals, without meaning anything negative by it.

@avazula The Nazis? Really?

I find this modern fascination with national socialism and the apparent desire to connect anything and everything to national socialism to be quite absurd.

avazula

@LucasF. There are two things here: most offending things are used massively to discriminate a whole group of people. If there's something that's only offending to you, then talk about it to people. The vowel example is a bit exaggerated to me but yes, communication is key: if those people truly care about you they'll do their best to accomodate. If they don't, then why would you want to talk to them anyway?

Hans Asperger

Johann "Hans" Friedrich Karl Asperger (, German: [hans ˈʔaspɛɐ̯ɡɐ]; 18 February 1906 – 21 October 1980) was an Austrian pediatrician, eugenicist, medical theorist, and medical professor. He is best known for his early studies on mental disorders, specifically in children. His work was largely unnoticed during his lifetime except for a few accolades in Vienna, and his studies on psychological disorders acquired world renown only posthumously. He wrote over 300 publications, mostly concerning a condition he termed autistic psychopathy (AP). There was a resurgence of interest in his work beginning...

Lucas F.

@avazula My point is that "being offended" is used as a blanket statement to dictate to others how they are allowed to express themselves.

And I know who Hans Asperger is.

avazula

@LucasF. There's an article in my country's constitution: Freedom of oneself stops where those of the others begin. Respect comes first. If you can't respect the premises someones gives you then I think that is disrespectful.

@LucasF. I specifically linked the part to the nazi involvement. The onebox doesn't show that. Sorry

Lucas F.

@avazula I think the first part of this statement could be used to justify both sides. What gives me the right to restrict your right to express yourself freely?

avazula

1:08 PM

@LucasF. Well, if I offend you in any way and you tell me I did, I'll apologize and adjust. If I really can't, I'll disengage.

Lucas F.

As for respect, I'm unsure if one could put into law that one has to respect one another. I generally treat others with respect, but I dislike the idea of being forced to act in a certain way.

avazula

Nobody likes that

But sometimes we have to temper ourselves if what we do hurt others

Lucas F.

The more general problem seems to be the desire of personal freedom and how it opposes our desire to feel "safe".

@avazula And I agree, to a certain extent

I don't enjoy hurting other people, nor do I do it on purpose

But there is an invisible line in the sand at which I have to say "I'm sorry that you feel hurt, but I will stick by what I said/did"

Because I feel like we should not indirectly empower those who feel the most offended. I think that this creates a very unhealthy social dynamic.

Mister Positive

1:29 PM

@avazula This is what I try to keep in mind. I try to avoid labels at all costs.

Joe Strazzere

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica Okay. So basically, you are complaining about "politically correct" terms, but not offering an alternative. I understand.

Mister Positive

Hello @JoeStrazzere I hope my answer was of use. I am not quite the writer LIL is.

Magisch

afternoon everyone

Mister Positive

@Magisch Morning....on cup number 2

Magisch

!!/coffee @mister

Mister Positive

1:37 PM

si

Magisch

smokey isn't in here

:(

Mister Positive

coffee, the nectar of the gods

4

Magisch

I'm partial to mint tea myself

medically questionable quantities of mint tea

Mister Positive

4

Q: What are the day-to-day activities of Moderators?

Now that moderator elections are upcoming, it would be nice to know: just what do moderators do? How much time per day does it take? What are you expected to do each day? I know that moderators move comment threads to Chat. I understand that they have "moderator super powers". But I honestly do...

discussion moderators

@Magisch Two answers there for anyone interested in running

Magisch

I already read them

but thank you :)

Mister Positive

1:41 PM

@Magisch oh. NP

Magisch

I check meta and twp a couple times a day

Mister Positive

Are there any DBA types here? Specifically SQL Server?

Magisch

not specifically DBA but I work a lot with sql server

avazula

chimes in

Mister Positive

so what are the thoughts on the use of Schem's?

schemas rather

I tend to agree with the views here: brentozar.com/archive/2010/05/why-use-schemas

Joe Strazzere

1:46 PM

@MisterPositive Both answers were very helpful. Thanks!

Mister Positive

@JoeStrazzere No problem, I hope you decide to run. You helped me a lot in my early days here and I think you would be fantastic as a moderator.

Magisch

@MisterPositive in my workplace everything is piled under dbo, but when I make new structures I use them

Mister Positive

I can see some value if implemented properly. Very limited though.

Magisch

for most purposes it's basically syntactic sugar for DB editors

Mister Positive

@Magisch yep. And most developers don't get the use of a schema.....

not all, but most

Magisch

1:51 PM

Maybe my use case is too small but while I use schemas in new creations, it is more for clarity when I write queries to see more easily what is connected and the broad categories of tables, views and functions. For segregation of perms I usually do seperate databases

so I use them if at all as some sort of syntactic sugar

motosubatsu

@MisterPositive I mostly agree with Brent there.. in probably 90%+ databases out there they aren't needed and provide little more than naming convention sugar. Although I think he underestimates the benefits of them used properly, just because a tool isn't something that you use on every job doesn't mean it's not the absolute right tool for some jobs

Magisch

I could see the use if I designed a multi company integrated app of some sort that used individual level or group level permission strutures

Mister Positive

@motosubatsu Agreed. If schema's were used properly at the beginning of a new project. Adding them to an existing db/app not so much.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@JoeStrazzere sorry, had to head into work.

Mister Positive

@avazula What are your thoughts?

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

1:58 PM

@avazula the Nazis wore pants too, but I'm not about to walk around naked.

avazula

@MisterPositive I don't use them and never have, so I won't be very useful here :/

Mister Positive

@avazula NP

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@JoeStrazzere and I did offer alternatives, such as "handicapped", which is far more accurate. Mentally retarded, when it fits, is a descriptive, as is simple.

avazula

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I just said what I knew about the subject.

Mister Positive

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica What is this in response too.....

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

2:00 PM

@MisterPositive It's about Hans Asperger, and the fact that he did work with the Nazis.

Mister Positive

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica Right, I get that, but I am missing the context...

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@MisterPositive ah, the fact that some people take offense to the term "aspie", and others, prefer it.

Mister Positive

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica oh, gotcha

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

@MisterPositive yeah, I'll probably beg off early today. Today is the last day for about 20 people here, the place is about as cheerful as an oncology ward.

avazula

And so Richard asked me whether the term was offensive so I told him the reasons I knew for some people to find the term offensive.

Richard Says Reinstate Monica

2:03 PM

@avazula Sorry, I'm in a bad mood over the firings, I apologize if I am coming across too agressively.

TTFN people, I'll be back next week. :( this is a very sad day here

Mister Positive

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica not a fun place to be

Magisch

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica take care

Mister Positive

Gotta run, happy Friday all!

avazula

2:17 PM

You too!

Joe Strazzere

4:45 PM

@RichardSaysReinstateMonica okay

Lilienthal

5:37 PM

FYI, I've updated my answer on our day-to-day with some average numbers for typical actions. I think it might help to give some sense of scale, but keep in mind that this is with a fairly limited time expenditure (for that see my and @MisterPositive's estimates on our time spent).

Magisch

5:49 PM

I notice y'all don't mention the extra-site activities

in this brave new world (tm) of stack exchange to be heard the mods will have to carry and assert the feedback and will of their community in pre-launch feedback rounds of many thing in the mod team and chatroom

not wanting to do that as a current mod is fine, you didn't sign up for it. But I think the site needs a couple mods that do

MSE has lost most of its relevance for feedback, and it seems outside of user interviews (which do not regularly target core users) the only feedback mechanism that these sites of ours have left seems to be things that are shared with moderators for feedback before release. In the past as with the hububb about the featured tag policy and others it has been the voices of network moderators who have ensured our feedback was heard and acknowledged. Especially smaller sites need some moderators who

use this last avenue to make the voices of their users heard.

Lilienthal

6:25 PM

Why do you think the site needs that? The site needs people who help out with moderation tasks. That's what we hold elections for. What the network (community) needs is a different matter but no less up for debate.

I believe you're also ascribing too much power to what the moderators can do. Based on recent developments I have doubts anyone community-facing can do what it is you're envisioning.

Magisch

@Lilienthal Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but it seems like normal users have pretty much lost their voice as far as feedback goes.

If I take a deliberately positive outlook then it still looks like moderators will have to shoulder more of the burden of making the company listen

And our site needs this because our interests matter nothing to them. They are so focused on SO and other high traffic sites that we won't get consideration unless our mods fight for it. Huge changes are coming to the network, and huge changes are coming to how moderators operate, not via the new mod agreement, but via other ways (like the supposed moderator council making new policy-level decisions for conduct handling). In order for these changes to work positively for us and in order for

the company to consider us (the TWP users) in what they do, we will need voices. It seems like the company has pretty much abandoned MSE as a way of collecting feedback, but they do not seem to have abandoned the moderator team and chat room. It's not like you have substantially more influence then before, but everyone else has none left.

gnat

would someone with 15K+ rep please protect that "disabled co-worker" question? It seems to attract passers-by answers looking rude by our site standards

Magisch

I think non mods can only protect after a day @gnat

at least, I dont have the button

Mister Positive

6:41 PM

@Magisch I gotta say, I do the bare minimum outside of this site....

you have to keep up with Moderator related stuff, but I don't participate outside of the Moderator pages, SO, TWP, and Meta.

Magisch

@MisterPositive I'm doing a you and channeling my best-case outlook for how things could go, and in that world, having someone who will fight to make the company listen is what we need

there are like 20 people who I would reasonably trust with the tools to handle flags and time out people

Mister Positive

@Lilienthal I agree with you on this.

@gnat done.

@Magisch Thanks!

Magisch

I can't force that we'll elect someone who will do that, but I'll organize my vote after these priorities and will keep beating that drum :p

Mister Positive

@Magisch I would not have it any other way, but I will keep letting people know they do not necessarily need to do that.

If they choose to, great. Its not mandatory. We need a Moderator HERE.

Magisch

right

I'm fairly confident quite a few people are capable of that

Mister Positive

6:48 PM

I am heading out for a long weekend. Take care everyone!

Magisch

take care

:)

gnat

@Magisch this probably means SE somehow broke adjustment that was made for our site few years ago. Back then they made a per site setting allowing our 15Kers protect immediately. Now it's probably gone, along with many good things ^(

@Lilienthal for our site, there was an adjustment allowing 15K users protect immediately. Most likely reason is mobile, I think I tested this (at site where I have enough rep to protect) and it indeed lacked the option to protect. Other possible reason could be there were no answers from users with less than 10 on-site rep - in this case 15K users can't protect — gnat Feb 9 at 19:35

Magisch

ah well

DarkCygnus

7:34 PM

damn

please burn that thing

Lilienthal

@Magisch I don't dispute that normal user appear to have lost a lot of possibility for feedback. What I'm disputing is your belief that the... abnormal :) users still have one on the topics you presumably have in mind. I also don't believe it should be a crucial element of our site's election but I believe the community is rather divided on that particular element.

DarkCygnus

Wonder why they targeted Matthew

@Lilienthal mind deleting that?

@Magisch I suggest we stop the rollback and instead delete that

Lilienthal

Yeah I'm working on it

That's the largest edit war I think I've ever seen...

Magisch

I cast a delete vote too

Lilienthal

Nuked from orbit.

3

Magisch

7:40 PM

can you get rid of the chat post too

the onebox has rather offensive symbols in it

Lilienthal

Yeah, good call. Removed your onebox @DarkCygnus.

all done

:)

so...

:)

thanks

DarkCygnus

7:42 PM

that image reminded me... Happy Valentines LOL

Lilienthal

The rather, uh, colourful image posted by the OP on that question?

You must have an exciting Valentine's Day :)

DarkCygnus

yes xD

kinda thematic that user who vandalized the post

Magisch

... lets not dwell on that

:p

DarkCygnus

Wonder why they posted an actual question first

perhaps to do the edit after?

Magisch

my guess is they got frustrated with the feedback they got and wanted to enact revenge

@DarkCygnus you planning to run in the election?

Lilienthal

7:54 PM

Reading through the history that question took a really wild turn for no discernible reason. The OP interacted in comments and appeared to reach an overall conclusion then defaced the question, threw out an n-word comment and things spiralled out of control from there. Quite bizarre, but on the whole not a user we would like to welcome in the community I think. :|

gnat

9:20 PM

this asker seems to have a very interesting life. Like Hans Moleman maybe, workplace.stackexchange.com/users/114624/…

Player One

11:41 PM

Maybe, they could also easily be questions about the same bad company that the OP has had for ages, wants to ask now that they've found this site, and has split into separate questions so as not to be too broad. The fact that they've been asked one hour apart from each other is weird, but maybe the OP is worried about being accused of spamming or something.

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