@RichardSaysReinstateMonica, @Hosch250 helped me prepare for an interview I had yesterday and I got the internship! I just wanted to get some advice about the internship offer
It's a 12 month internship for £12,500 at 27.5 hrs a week
It will be my first experience working in a development role and I really like what I have seen of the company's projects
It's also perfect because it's not really full time so I can still continue teaching my self web development on the side and doing my personal projects. The internship is also remote which another thing that I like about it.
What do you think?
I have zero experience at the moment and I don't come from a computer science or software engineering degree
@Draken since your'e a software developer may be you can give me some advice
@MyWrathAcademia Be prepared for the following questions:
1)Why should we hire you? 2)What are your greatest strengths? 3)What are your greatest weaknesses? 4)Tell me about yourself. 5)Why are manhole covers round?
Yes I know the pay is a bit low but its 27.5 hrs a week only. Normal 12 month internships in the part of the UK where I'm from (outside London) would probably pay around £16,000 or £17,000 for 12 months
Just to confirm "squirrel away all of the money you can" means to save all the money I can during the internship?
@ArthurHavlicek I come from a non-computer science/software engineering degree and so have basic skills relative to what a software developer has in their repertoire. They know this so say they are happy to dedicate time and resources to help me get up to speed with their technology, methodology and anything else I need to hopefully grow in to a proper developer role.
Just to give you an example of my lack of experience. I recently had an interview for a software engineering role at an enterprise company. The recruiter cut the phone interview short and recommended I apply to their "four week Graduate Academy" instead
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I wish I was a musician. Why do you think I am? I do practice though
@ArthurHavlicek there will be lots to learn in the first 6 months.
@MyWrathAcademia Thats really nice, so you will be learning development. I'd think this is way worth being paid a little lower. You will compensate in salary later on. And have time to practice yourself if you enjoy as well.
@MyWrathAcademia People with any talent in music tend to do well in software. Every last person who graduated from my school had a background in music. out of 100 of us who started, only 20 finished, and all of us were musicians in some sort.
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I'm gonna reply to their email now agreeing to their request to meetup today. But is it okay if I reply to their job offer email without confirm whether I accept or not. Even though I want to accept. It's just that I've been sick with the cold so only just read their email 30 minutes ago which they sent last night?
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I don't like to rush things so your thoughts would be helpful
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica The perfect words to describe you would be "a well rounded individual", the type with tonnes of extracurriculars.
@MyWrathAcademia I handle the interns who come through our company and we're Europe based. We do minimum 6 month internships and have had a few do 12 months (On the intern's request). We used to pay 15K a year and have recently gone up to 21k a year, but we are based in an expensive capital city and it's for a full time job. 12k does seem low, but if you're living up North in the UK, it could be reasonable for an internship that is part time.
I would say it's great to have the experience on the CV and a fantastic opportunity. You need to make sure you take the time to learn as much as you can on the job.
Have you applied anywhere else and had any other offers?
@Draken thanks for your input. Yes, I'm living in Northen England. What gave it away, was it my accent :) I have applied to a handful of places and have had interviews for them. One said they are a small start up and don't have the resources to train me. The other was a big enterprise company who reacted negatively when I told the recruiter that I'm self taught without a computer science degree and proceeded to suggest I apply to their 4 week graduate academy instead
Degrees rarely tell anything I find. I've had some people without a degree who were the best developers I've ever came across and then I've had people with masters who were absolute muppets. But each company has their own way of doing things, the UK the degree isn't quite as necessary but you may still have some roadblocks without it
@motosubatsu right now I want to know whether it is okay to respond to the internship offer email in which I was invited to meet up today without accepting the offer outright?
@Kaz Depends on how north we are talking here. I'm a Leicester lad myself, so well aware of the price differences :P
@MyWrathAcademia Of course it is, but you always have to be careful as they are also able to take the offer off the table, it takes care to handle these things
@MyWrathAcademia absolutely.. you can say you want to think over the offer before giving your decision - obviously as Draken says they are also free to offer it elsewhere in the meantime. No need to apologise in that timeframe <24 hrs is fine
if you aren't you could apologise for being unable to meet up - mention some nebulous "other plans" that prevented you seeing the email until this afternoon
When I arranged an interview with them for yesterday I told them I didn't have a phone because well my phone broke. However I now have a phone, will it seem odd or look bad on me if I call them out of no where after them thinking that I don't have a phone?
one thing to double check in your offer paperwork is that the £12.5k is what you get for the 27.5 hours (not that they are saying it's £12.5k pro-rata'd)
@motosubatsu I think I will call them now and explain that I was sick and spent this morning/afternoon getting and setting up my new phone which I ordered after our video interview last night. Just to confirm again before I make the phone call, could this backfire in anyway on me?
@MyWrathAcademia wouldn't have thought so.. it's reasonable, life happens - and their "hey want to meet tomorrow" was very short notice as these things go
@MyWrathAcademia Congrats. That looks like a reasonable offer. A little bit lower than a junior position, but then it's not full-time, they are taking more risk than with a junior position anyway, from their perspective, and it is remote, which is an incredible benefit--you aren't spending a bunch of money and time (and time is worth money) on transportation.
If you get an offer for full-time, you should definitely try to bump it up to at least 60,000.
@Hosch250 it's a pretty decent offer for those hours.. it works out a little over £18k (in full time hours) which is about right for an entry level role.
@motosubatsu No, that would be a fair wage for a full-time junior dev in my area. Granted, my area is a bit more expensive than some (St. Paul, MN), so that might be a little high for northern England.
It's pretty standard for a city rate, I've gathered--not super high like silicon valley.
@motosubatsu I called but they have left the location proposed for the meetup. He did say he will call back in an hour to confirm a time tomorrow to reschedule the meetup
I started at roughly $60k as a contractor, moved up to $65k full-time 3 months later. Now I'm at $85k a couple years later, and I wouldn't be surprised to be about $100k a few more years down the road, which is about the same as a skilled union worker in my area--and they get benefits too.
I have benefits, but not as good as my parents (union pipefitter/welder).
Even if it wasn't a good offer, I'd probably have recommended that you accept it. Internships are about as scarce as teeth on hens in my area.
I ended up doing an unpaid internship with an OSS project--I couldn't graduate without doing one.
My brother is also struggling to find an internship. He's going for finance, which is impossible to break into without contacts because nobody wants to trust someone to handle money without someone to vouch for them.
I knew I wanted to learn the data modelling etc. but just didn't know the word for that side of software development until you mentioned learning the software architectural side
@MyWrathAcademia That's a huge field. You'll never be finished learning it, TBH. But you definitely can reach a point of being good enough to build and deploy a system.
@MyWrathAcademia Be polite and terse. Two of my acceptances were just a "yes" over the phone. One was simply signing and returning a document.
@MyWrathAcademia I actually know someone who works at a bank and uses it :)
Something along the lines of "Dear Sir/Madame: Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you; please contact me if you need any additional information. Sincerely, My Wrath."
If you want to explicitly call out that you noticed something, feel free to drop it in. Something like "I'm looking forward to starting on MM, DD, YYYY." to confirm that you noticed the start date.
Hi <firstName>, Thanks for your email. I've been ill with the cold so I'm just reading your email. I'm very excited to have received an internship offer and I'm happy to accept it. As explained on the phone apologies for being unable to meet up today, I was sick and spent this morning/afternoon getting and setting up my new phone which I ordered after our video chat yesterday. I look forward to out meetup tomorrow, Kind regards,
@Draken Re: Degrees. I agree. I've had to teach kids with degrees how the real world works. An instructor of mine had this bit of sage wisdom:
"Anything in the business world that is up, running, and actually works, would get an "F" if turned in for college credit, including the internet itself"
@MyWrathAcademia sorry, had to get some work done... wasn't ignoring you.
Hi. Sorry to lose you before I even knew you, but on the other hand, I don't blame you for leaving. I'm considering it myself--just keeping one account around for chat.
Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you. As explained on the phone apologies for being unable to meet up today, I was sick and spent this morning/afternoon getting and setting up my new phone which I ordered after our video chat yesterday. Please contact me if you need any additional information I look forward to out meetup tomorrow, Kind regards,
I just got off the phone with the person I will be reporting to. They say that I could make it a full time internship instead of part time but they remember me saying that I didn't want to jump into a development role straight because I preferred to get up to speed.
I could change it to full time after a month if I wanted or stick with 4 or 6 months when I am prepared to handle all responsibilities of a proper developer without needing my hand held all the time
Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you. As explained on the phone apologies for being unable to meet up today, I was sick and spent this morning/afternoon getting and setting up my new phone which I ordered after our video chat yesterday. Please contact me if you need any additional information I look forward to out meetup tomorrow, Kind regards,
Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you. Apologies for being unable to meetup today. Please contact me if you need any additional information. Kind regards,
@Hosch250 so is the above more terse version better
Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you. Apologies for being unable to meetup today; I look forward our meeting tomorrow. Please contact me if you need any additional information. Kind regards,
Sounds great, although the meetup can't be rescheduled for tomorrow because the CEO was in my city for only today. It's alright because now I'm joining them we can meetup another time
> Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you. Apologies for being unable to meetup today. Please contact me if you need any additional information. Kind regards,
Thank you for extending this offer. I look forward to working with you. Apologies for being unable to meetup today. Please contact me on my new number (07...) if you need any additional information. Kind regards,
I never thought about this seriously until now but I probably prefer working for a startup than an enterprise company because its a young start up and as one of the batch of employees I could rise up the company ranks quicker than in an enterprise company and also the flexibility of a startup is important.
What other benefits are there to working in a start up?
Oh yeah i could also help shape the direction/history of the company, which would be great if it became a super successful company in the future
My last company was around for about 50 years and various owners under the same name before the last one; now they are just a department in a parent company and will likely be entirely merged eventually. They were around before the internet.
My current one has been around for a number of years (20-30, I think), and is small. Not really a startup, though; we'd like to grow, but we're in consulting, so there's only so much growth available anyway because there's only so much work.
@MyWrathAcademia the most important advice that I can give you is to get along. If you are personable, and hard-working, people tend to give you plenty of leeway. Or, as an old boss used to say "If someone is weak in a skill, I can always send them to a class, but if they're an a-hole, there's nothing I can do, and I don't want them"
Oh yeah I forgot to mention that they offered to provide me with a new laptop, which is unexpected because they know I already have a laptop. Is it normal to be provided with a laptop in a new job/internship. Is this laptop a work laptop leased to me by the company or should I assume it is my (second) personal laptop?
@MyWrathAcademia It's standard, and NEVER put anything personal on it, if you can avoid it. It belongs to the company, and anything you put on that, including passwords to your private email, can be accessed by the company.
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica thanks for this piece of advice. I will keep it in mind. Luckily I am naturally personable due to my star sign but it's still good to know that.
@MyWrathAcademia the most important advice that I can give you is to get along. If you are personable, and hard-working, people tend to give you plenty of leeway. Or, as an old boss used to say "If someone is weak in a skill, I can always send them to a class, but if they're an a-hole, there's nothing I can do, and I don't want them"
@MyWrathAcademia It's standard, and NEVER put anything personal on it, if you can avoid it. It belongs to the company, and anything you put on that, including passwords to your private email, can be accessed by the company.
@MyWrathAcademia also, never worry about not knowing something, everyone is faking their way through life, right up to the CEO. We are always learning, all of us. Never be afraid to take on new tasks and making mistakes.
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica wow so I should not even use my personal emails on that work laptop. How does everyone else check their emails, order stuff from amazon, or even check their bank account while at work etc.?
@Hosch250 very true.. in my first (post uni) job I was sales, sales-tech-consult, network engineer, sysadmin, coder, tester, 1st line support, 2nd line support, the list was endless, you did what was needed when it was needed
@MyWrathAcademia Yes, do not do ANYTHING personal on your work laptop, use your own, or use your mobile phone. The company has the right to ANYTHING on your professional electronics.
@MyWrathAcademia exactly. I tend to plan for worst case. There are no edge cases or risks if you keep the two separate. For example, even if you're just checking your bank balance. If the bank's website is compromised, and it infects your work computer, you're done.
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica I like the sound of taking on extra roles. It means theoretically I should gain more skills than if I worked at a large enterprise company
@Wrath it's a double edged sword, you can end up not being able to concentrate on an area you really want to as you get pulled into things outside your job description as the company requires
@MyWrathAcademia That is a huge advantage to working for a small company, or a small division in a company. You get exposure to many technologies, and get to pick up many skillsets along the way. In My case, I am competent in a wide range of skills.
I learned some of it from reading various Workplace posts, some from snooping on my work computer, some from reading my contract, and some from experience.
I was told they plan to get into AI soon so I better start brushing up on my algorithms. Learning many technologies from full stack to AI will allow me to know exactly which path I want to build a career in down the line
Also with a startup like I mentioned you get to know of the company's plans before they do it. In enterprise you only know something when it's time to get involved
@RichardSaysReinstateMonica that's hillarious. The machine is clever which I think mimics human intelligence more rather than just being able to crunch numbers or make yes or no decisions
It's an interesting conclusion certainly and a good way to determine it with a high probability of success
But a child (who had never seen a dog or wolf before) would learn in the exact same way and I don't think we'd call it clever
Although there is something to be said for the way animals recognise faces which is fascinatingly complex given how much "work" goes in for a computer to do the same
I remember learning about it at uni (this is before passport control became all automated obviously)
@MyWrathAcademia also, never worry about not knowing something, everyone is faking their way through life, right up to the CEO. We are always learning, all of us. Never be afraid to take on new tasks and making mistakes.
But what I am a bit worried about is the amount of time it will take me to learn new things. I'm a bit like Richard Feynmann (I'm not bragging) in that I take a bit longer to learn something but I gain a very good understanding of whatever I (take my time to) learn. How do I balance learning new technologies fast and also having a deep understanding in them?
In other words, I don't just want to use new technologies (i.e. be a code monkey) I want to understand them well enough for them to become intuitive.
If you want to go above and beyond what is required for the thing they want you to do, you may want to study up at home in your spare time, but they should allow for enough time for you to get to grips. Everyone learns at different rates and most companies do understand that - provided you're somewhere good
You might learn them fast to get up to speed with what's required for immediate delivery but then go back and retroactively study around and build up your knowledge base when you have a bit of a break between tasks in the day
@MyWrathAcademia one thing I would often do, is attack a code snippet and see if I could improve it. My personal best was reducing sixty lines of code down to five
@Richard, but sometimes you get into that tech and want to learn more than is just required for the job
I needed to learn basic Lua for my current role - but only snippets here and there. I started out just looking up the required info as I needed it, but then I saw opportunities where I could speed up processes and stuff so when I had nothing on at work I would just play around with it more and more until I became pretty good at it and now can figure out a way to do most things with it
> I've tried the lane-keeping for probably less than two hours, and it was fairly terrifying. Especially on California concrete freeways, which are prone to having lots of left-over paint from prior lane lines, with the most recent lane markings often times being barely more clear than ancient lines, the car was easily confused. And if there was a concrete barrier with no shoulder, the car just got as close as it could, scaring both me and passengers.
I got involved with my current company doing data entry. Then spreadsheet modelling. Then VBA/automation. Then Back-Office implementation. Then I took over our Investment Ops for a couple of years, then project management, and now I'm de-facto CTO in charge of IT, tech, data and analytics. The key is to make sure you keep learning and adding whatever value you can.
@Kaz that is the approach, learn the job, expand the job, make the job YOURS, then re-define it in a way that maximizes benefit to you and the company.
The company says its convenient for me to start on Monday next week but that it's up to me when I want to start. I must admit that I'm worried about not being strong enough in mainly JavaScript and Java (html, sql and css too) so I'm considering asking to start a bit later while I read up on them a bit more.
Should I delay my start past next week because I don't feel I am competent in JavaScript and Java, in order to spend more time learning them in my own time as I have been doing for some time now, or should I not worry about this? And if so, how late of a start is reasonable?
I'm asking because It might be embarrassing if I don't know advanced parts of those languages
No, it won't be embarrassing if you don't know advanced parts.
And this week should be enough to brush up on the basics.
I'd say go ahead and start Monday, but if you push it back, don't push it back by more than a week. If you hit trouble, just search the web and find the solution to your answer.
I basically didn't know any web stuff when I started.
I learned it all online as needed. Intellisense helps.
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