The Water Cooler

Kilisi

03:49

I bought Red Dead Redemption 2 for my kids lat month, incredible graphics, can't wait for my kids to finish it so I can have a go.... I'd kick them off the PS4 but there's 5 of them and I'm pretty old, pretty undignified if I get slapped around

*last

Mister Positive

04:08

@Kilisi That is funny....my son and I fight over the xbox on occassion

Jane S

05:21

I know I don't get in here very often, but thanks all for putting up with me over the past four years. I have always tried to be fair, and for the most part invisible when moderating. I'm not sure how much I will be contributing to the community over the next little while, that will depend on a number of things. But I hope that SE and the communities can find a path forward.

Snow

It's been great working with you, Jane. And I've been proud to support this community.

Jane S

Likewise :) Anyway, I'll keep an eye on things as much as I can without having the access I did as a mod, and we'll see what happens. In the meantime, I plan to go play a game and shoot some electronic bad guys :)

Snow

06:06

@Kilisi You might have to wait a while - I spend months on that before I completed everything. I know it probably cost you a lot to buy it (I recall your frustrations with the internet and postage charges from before). RDR2 is excellent value for money because you can't complete it within 10 hours of gameplay.

Kilisi

07:19

@Snow yeah, wallet took a hit, but I'm old, only spend my $$ on the wif and kids these days... they've been playing rdr2... I've been building them a fort to shoot the neighbours from and and a swing... so still got a bit of building to go before I kick them off the PS4.... I want to start the game from the beginning but it only allows one player.

Snow

You're one hell of an awesome dad for those kids!

Kilisi

They're the future, got to try and give them what I can I reckon

Snow

As long as it's not a broken arm, I guess. :D

Kilisi

07:43

@MisterPositive yeah, one on one I'd stand a chance against any but the baby.... hehe... but 5 vrs one they'd just tell their mum and I'd be effed

they fight dirty

motosubatsu

08:28

@JaneS I honestly wouldn't characterize it as "putting up with you" - as far as I'm concerned you've been an exemplary mod

Snow

08:39

Well, I have about three hours left.

I'm guessing there's going to be some interim moderators assigned after Jane and I leave, I really have no idea who they will be or how they will work. Just do the best you can to do what you're doing. I have no idea when a new election will be scheduled, but I guess after a week or two.

Magisch

@Snow far as I know SE doesn't do elections near christmas or years end

I obviously don't know for sure but it might be february before new elections

Snow

There's plenty of time for a new election before the end of the year.

Magisch

Here's hoping. The ones this year happened like 3-4 months from scheduling

on beta sites at least

@Snow It's been an honor to have you and @JaneS as moderators here. From my personal experience you've been nothing but professional and skilled in taking the tasks here on

especially handling the annoying volume and brevity of off topic comments

I hope you'll return at some point in the future when SE cleans up their mess

Jane S

11:29

@motosubatsu Thank you! I just tried to get on with it and do the job you elected me to do :)

@Magisch Thank you for your kind words, it is nice to hear that we did ok :)

Richard U

@JaneS Hi Jane, sorry to see you go, but certainly understood

motosubatsu

11:44

and then there was one

Jane S

@RichardU Thank you, it was not a decision I made lightly, but I feel it's the right one at this time.

Magisch

@MisterPositive It has been an honor to have you as a moderator on this site as well. I hope the situation can resolve itself such that all of you can return and if not, best wishes anyways

Mister Positive

4

Q: Resigning as Moderator from TWP

As most of you know, Monica was removed as a moderator over the weekend by the SE staff. It wasn’t her decision, and there simply wasn't any justification for it. I scoured all the data I could over the 24 hours, listened to the chatter in the private moderator chat room, and simply could not ...

discussion

@Magisch Much appreciated. I hold out hope for the long term.

Magisch

@MisterPositive They wouldn't, but if they make you run again to regain your mod hat I'll vote for you without hesitation

avazula

@MisterPositive oh ... I'm really sorry to see you go (and every one else). Thank you for everything you've done!

Mister Positive

11:52

LOL someone downvoted my resignation post....is that a false positive?

Magisch

@MisterPositive It's hard. I want to upvote the post because I respect your reasons for it but I don't want to upvote the announcement of a great loss for the site. I upvote those anyways in the end but someone might come down on the other end of that consideration

Mister Positive

Its perfectly fine at this point. It can be down voted to oblivion at this point.

signing off for now. I may pop back in from time to time, but for now, for me, this isn't fun anymore.

avazula

@MisterPositive take care of yourself. Hoping to see you soon if that suits you.

Mister Positive

@avazula thanks. still super happy your were elected. I hope it continues to be a rewarding experience for you.

Pointy Haired Boss

16

Q: Resigning as Moderator from TWP

As most of you know, Monica was removed as a moderator over the weekend by the SE staff. It wasn’t her decision, and there simply wasn't any justification for it. I scoured all the data I could over the last 24 hours, listened to the chatter in the private moderator room, and simply could not ...

discussion

Richard U

11:59

@MisterPositive I respect your decision

avazula

@MisterPositive same for me, you're a great mod. We'll see how it goes but for now I'm blessed to have these amazing mod colleagues and frequent users.

Mister Positive

@RichardU Thank you sir.

Magisch

@avazula I too think it's great you got elected

(totally not biased btw)

avazula

@Magisch :) I think you'd be a great mod FWIW

motosubatsu

@MisterPositive I posted on your resignation thread but in case you haven't seen it.. thanks mate.

Jane S

12:02

@MisterPositive I got one too, it doesn't matter.

Richard U

Sadly SE seems to want to eat their cake and still have it. You cannot simultaneously have a community participation site, and have tight control over it.

Mister Positive

@JaneS Not even a little.....

Mihir

12:22

Hi, wanted to ask for some advice but don't think that normal questioning on stackexchange site would allow it as it is specific to a particular career, so deleted the question? Can someone answer it here if possible?

motosubatsu

@Mihir not sure I can help personally - although I've done some low level C/C++ my career hasn't really gone in that direction of late

I do think that there's still a viable career path there though, but it's not the easiest thing to break into - there aren't perhaps the volume of openings you'd see in higher level languages and there's often the chicken vs egg problem of needing experience to get a role

as for where to look at applying - the answer is basically there in your own question. If you're interested in writing code for OS or network stacks then the obvious place to look for roles, internships etc would be the OS or networking vendors. Be it a Linux distro, Microsoft, CISCO etc.

and doing what you have (i.e. contributing to projects such as FreeBSD) is valuable experience too.

Mihir

I understand this experience problem, and its geniune too. Can't I cover this experience gap through means of some internships(if possible to get)? Also how big barrier is a country in getting a job? I mean like when I surf the net, I hardly find (or to be precise nothing) any openings in my country.

Also thanks for the details! Was dying to discuss this

motosubatsu

12:39

@Mihir internships are a great way to start covering the experience gap. Country could be a bigger problem - since there's probably a smaller number of companies globally offering the sort of work you're looking for then that reduces the chances of one being located where you are.

It's not impossible certainly - but it definitely can add a significant barrier to overcome. If you really want to follow this sort of work and there isn't anyone in your country offering it then you'll either have to hope for a remote role or move

where are you located if I may ask?

Mihir

Yes, although finding internships would have the same problem but may reduce the problems due to experience. I am surely not gonna leave working on all this in any case but hearing this all day makes me mad, and even except that its true that its necessary to have some work in hand. I am ready to move/remote work/freelance or anything.

I am located in delhi/inida

India*

Richard U

@Mihir the best way I have found to transition is do do freelance work on the side, or to do volunteer work. You get experience that way. The laws in India may be different though, so check before you do either

Mihir

I have been surfing through sites like upwork/toptal/fiverr/truelancer although never really tried to start. I will start it asap considering it helps. Although how would law effect this? Like all it should effect is taxes etc?

Richard U

12:58

@Mihir taxes, yes, and also if there are laws limiting what you can do outside of work

@JoeStrazzere Hi Joe!

Pointy Haired Boss

1

Q: No more active ♦ moderators. How should we keep the site in order?

In the past few days, y'all have witnessed the terrible action Stack Exchange's done: They dismissed Monica, one of the most beloved and respected moderator and community members. Following that, all three remaining The Workplace moderators have since declared their resignation. (Snow, Jane S, Mi...

discussion moderation

Joe Strazzere

@RichardU Hello!

Richard U

13:11

@JoeStrazzere Things have gotten a bit sticky as of late, I see.

Joe Strazzere

@RichardU Apparently.

Sourav Ghosh

13:27

cv-pls websites it's job-searching. Where to search email math tutoring jobs?‭ - studying‭ 2019-10-01 13:04:27Z

Magisch

@SouravGhosh already vtc that in the fp queue, sorry

Pointy Haired Boss

14:01

0

Q: Why was my comment deleted, but not the replies to it?

I posted a highly upvoted comment which was not asking for clarification on the question, so I understand why it was deleted. But why weren't the replies to my comment deleted also? This is not the first time I have seen this happen. It is confusing when there are replies to a comment that doesn...

discussion comments deleted

Snow

Ok, that's pretty much all of the mods demodded now. @JaneS - You're the only one left. If you didn't submit your email, that's fine, it's good to have the coverage.

Magisch

Yikes

Kaz

14:18

@RichardU Nice to see you back. I was worried I'd never run into you again ^^

@enderland You too!

Richard U

@news of the current crisis reached me. I am here to help, if I can

Snow

A bit like Homelander. :D

Richard U

@Snow My advanced age and failing health precludes me from engaging in that character's cupidity.

In all seriousness, I think that SE should try to mend fences, and that is not something the user-base can do for them.

Kaz

@RichardU Based on most of the public posts I've seen so far, relatively few disagree with what SE are trying to accomplish, but instead with their attitude and actions and how they seem to be going about all of this.

@RichardU While you're here, any chance I can get some non-SE contact info? You're on my list of people I'd like to stay in touch with.

You too @enderland

Mister Positive

My diamond is now gone, and so am I for awhile. I will check in after a bit of time has past.

2

motosubatsu

14:33

@MisterPositive laters

Richard U

@Kaz email is [email protected]

@MisterPositive if you want to get in touch. [email protected]

@Kaz There's a saying "Whatever you did is what you intended". The means are what matters. Just ends can never be achieved by unjust means. If they were willing to toss Monica on the basis of "futurecrime", then that bodes ill for all of us.

The beginning of the end was the new COC of about a year ago, which replaced some very clear, very easy to follow rules to the clandestine ones now in place. I warned that something like this would happen.

@enderland ah, word got back to you too, eh?

enderland

Indeed it did

Kaz

@RichardU Pretty much my position too. But I do always try to hold out hope that it was just well-intentioned misunderstanding that can be walked back.

I feel like there's an ~~Avengers~~ Autists Assemble meme to be made here ^^

Richard U

@Kaz Hopefully. But the ball is in their court now. I hope they take this seriously

@Kaz Only if I get to be the "Token evil teammate"

Kaz

@enderland If you want to get in touch, I've made [email protected] for the purpose.

Richard U

14:42

@enderland how's the family? Good, I hope.

enderland

pretty good, kiddo started sleeping mostly through the night which is... well, awesome

Snow

That's great, glad to hear it.

And hello @JoeStrazzere I hope you are well as well.

Joe Strazzere

@Snow Hi. I'm okay. Dealing with a dad who won't be around much longer. Fortunately, Hospice is very helpful.

enderland

sorry to hear that @JoeStrazzere

Richard U

@enderland that is good. Remember the first rule of parenting: Your kid has their own rulebook.

Snow

14:47

Man, sorry to hear that. Hope that you help him to be as comfortable as he possibly can be.

Joe Strazzere

@enderland Thanks. We knew it was coming, so no surprise.

enderland

@RichardU I'm pretty sure we won the kid lottery as far as easy parenting goes, so far at least

Richard U

@JoeStrazzere sorry about that. I went through that with both my parents and my brother. Good luck.

Joe Strazzere

@Snow Thanks. He's lived a good life and is ready to go. Hopefully, he can go comfortably and at home.

Snow

Nice how a few resignations bring a few of the old guys back. Shoulda done this a long time ago!

2

Richard U

14:48

@enderland Just remember, that the second one learns from the first. Our little trickster learned from her big sister, BIG TIME. Threw us for a lop.

Joe Strazzere

@RichardU Thanks. Went through it a bit less than 2 years ago with my mom. This time is harder.

enderland

@Snow to be fair, was more Monica getting thrown under the bus ;-)

Richard U

@JoeStrazzere I know. It's tough to lose that connection to your past.

Snow

@enderland Well, yeah. And a lot of the moderators at the same time.

enderland

Yeah....

Richard U

14:50

I don't like seeing people treated unfairly, and that was beyond the pale

3

Magisch

15:27

I wonder what they thought would happen

Richard U

15:49

@Magisch they thought that they could act with impunity. I've seen it happen elsewhere online and IRL as well. People, when they run an organization that requires volunteers often start treating them as they would employees.

DarkCygnus

17:41

Huh, crowded chat today :)

0

Q: How to maintain composure when someone happens to be in situation of Monica?

This can happen in any workplace especially in those workplaces where democracy and community-centric mindset suddenly gets invaded by autocratic and top-down mindset. This can happen to anyone and I know I don't have enough composure myself to remain calm and so cool as Monica did. What are the...

psychology

Interesting...

Snow

17:59

Interesting question indeed. I’m not sure how to make it more relevant to this site though, but it’s good as a concept

DarkCygnus

Neither do i

Richard U

I can edit it. It's actually very similar to what I went through at that company that did me dirty

DarkCygnus

I think it's stable now :)

Oh... wait... I forgot we were on restricted mode .... *rolling back *...

(jk)

Richard U

I tweaked it a bit more, and changed it from democracy and community run to "collaboratie"

errr, that's collaborative

Richard U

18:26

@DarkCygnus I think one reason this situation got me so irritated is that it was much like what I faced on the job one time.

DarkCygnus

18:40

@RichardU I still can't believe all of this to be honest

Richard U

@DarkCygnus well, I'm sure it's inspired by recent events, but that doesn't make it less honest a question

I'm still going by the old "Assume good intentions" rule.

@DarkCygnus I think one thing we can all do at this point is not feed into the hostility

Give serious answers to all questions, even troll ones. If it's not a troll, then you've helped someone. If it is a troll, then you haven't fed into it.

DarkCygnus

Yes, that is why I tried to help a bit regardless I am disappointed by SE

Richard U

@DarkCygnus Remember, the point of a troll is to get a reaction, if the troll doesn't end up throwing the site into chaos, then the troll was unsucessful

DarkCygnus

How to troll a troll

Richard U

@DarkCygnus I used to troll back in the 1990s, and became quite good at it. Principally, I was going after online bullies, and neo-nazi groups. I would draw fire away from their intended victims, then mess with them. I also know how to spot trolls, and take away all of their fun.

Kilisi

19:22

@RichardU I can actually picture you as a large green chap hanging around a bridge charging toll on travellers.... don't know why, it's the name

Richard U

@Kilisi LOL

DarkCygnus

19:50

@Kilisi something like this maybe?

Kilisi

@DarkCygnus Ahaha, na.... more the conventional stereotypical huge green chap with the beer belly and a club as big as himself

Richard U

20:17

I always imagined myself more like this.....

Kaz

Oh hey, @RichardU @enderland, on a happier note:

Sep 12 at 19:16, by Kaz

I quit my job on Monday, and gave my MD 48 hours to persuade me not to. He doubled my salary. Consider me persuaded ^^

Richard U

@Kaz KAZ FOR THE WIN!

Kaz

Now just wait 'til we get to the equity conversation in 6 months time :)

@RichardU We've come a long way from this:

231

Q: I'm about to automate myself out of a job. How do I approach my boss to discuss this?

I work for a small-ish company (~15 employees). I've managed to automate myself out of 80% of my job, starting in 3-4 months. I would really like to stay with my company, but my best analysis suggests that there simply won't be (enough of) a need for me. If our growth rate continues, that 20% wi...

job-change

Richard U

@Kaz yep, the big secret about automation is that it doesn't eliminate work, it actually creates more, just at a higher volume and level

enderland

21:10

double salary? :o

Kaz

@enderland I was underpaid.

For understandable, historic reasons.

But I'm no longer the person I was when I started out, or in the same position.

enderland

Salaries in tech are quite awesome at this point. it's a gravy train if you figure out which one is the gravy vs the leftovers

DarkCygnus

Anyways, x2 salary is something great :)

Kaz

The last 3 years especially since that post, my role and responsibilities and integration into the strategic direction of the company have increased massively, and my pay hasn't kept pace.

DarkCygnus

congratz

Kaz

21:17

So I needed to re-base my compensation, and I saw the confluence of various factors and events, acted at what I felt was my point of maximum leverage, and it worked out rather well ^^

Good thing too because I didn't actually have another job lined up to go to yet :)

enderland

Hopefully you were mainly leaving for being underpaid then?

Kaz

@enderland I love literally everything else about my job and what it's doing for my career.

enderland

Ah, great!

Kaz

That's why it took 3 years of complaining, vocally, about my pay before I was willing to take the risk that I might have to actually quit.

But yes, at a certain point the gap becomes so egregious that it needs to be resolved, one way or the other.

enderland

I really dislike the information dissymmetry around that type of thing too

Kaz

21:23

@enderland Well, like I said, there were understandable reasons. I spent the first 2 years with the company being a dysfunctional mental wreck.

Every day wake up and flip a coin to see if I'm even going to make it out of bed.

enderland

oof. hopefully you are doing better, that type of depression (I assume it was depression?) is awful

Kaz

But for the time when I was in work, I was brilliant. And they were tiny and able to be flexible.

Jane S

@Snow It is a case of an out of date email address for me, sorting it out now.

Kaz

And then I got better, and starting 3 years ago it was at the point where, if I didn't tell you about it, you wouldn't know. And now it's basically not an issue at all.

But obviously coming out of a situation like that, it's understandable that they would be, let's say, cautious, about things would turn out.

And then I have no degree and no qualifications, so it's really hard to comp me to any kind of industry standards.

And my job is so diverse and ever-changing, that even agreeing a title for it is difficult, let alone asking a recruiter to benchmark it.

enderland

I love hearing the way you are describing things now

@JaneS :wave:

Jane S

21:28

@enderland Hey there, Enderland! :)

Kaz

So yeah, given my new value to the company (replacing me right now, while not impossible, would throw a massive wrench in our strategic roadmap for the next 2 years), I was pretty confident that if I forced the issue, we could break with where I used to be, and re-base my compensation based on where I am today.

Honestly, pretty amazing 3 years :)

And I'm still only 25. Just getting started. My boss retired at 39 and I have every intention of beating him.

enderland

ah, a fellow FIRE person?

Kaz

@enderland Of a sort. 20 years in the city, very senior individual in the Pearl Group private equity buyout (and later re-floating). I reckon he walked away from that with £10M, and board seats at about 6 different companies.

enderland

oh, well, that's one way to do it hahaha

10M makes it easy

Kaz

Got involved with my company as a sort of retirement project within a year or so. That was 7 years ago now.

Which is the other reason I really didn't want to risk having to walk away. I sit next to him all day, literally his right-hand man. That's exposure and experience you can't buy at any price.

Rhys

21:38

just read the news, congrats Kaz

Kaz

@Rhys Cheers.

Rhys

seems i popped in at a turbulent time, thats a lot of mod resignations

Richard U

@Kazm oh good lord, I'm more than 2x your age

Kaz

@RichardU Well hey, somebody's gotta keep the torch going for the next generation ^^

Richard U

@Kaz Ah, gather around the fire, and I shall tell you of the times of old, times of paper punch-cards, cassette-tape drives and floppy disks

Kaz

21:50

@RichardU Now you definitely sound like my dad ^^

Richard U

@Kaz Well, at least I don't sound like your granddad

Kaz

@RichardU Not quite. He was a codebreaker at Bletchley Park, just a little before even your time.

Richard U

@Kaz That's great. BTW, if you really want to sharpen your skills, try to do as much as you can without going online for help, There was no online help when I learned programming, and I think it made us sharper

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