The Water Cooler - 2019-09-30

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7:46 AM

@MisterPositive I don't envy you. Based on what I heard from network mods I trust far more then SE staff, this is beyond the pale and calls for civil disobedience.

One does not want to be a mod in these difficult times

8:27 AM

Speaking of which, what can us regular users do to, a. Support the remaining mods, and b. Support our departing mods?

@GregoryCurrie Well, I think the best plan of action for now is to continue to contribute to your respective stacks. It's still too early in public announcements to know what will happen next. But that's my opinion. Regarding supporting former and current mods well, I think thanking them for everything they're doing is an important thing to do.

8:46 AM

@GregoryCurrie It seems appropriate to continue supporting the users. Keep on top of the review queue and keep flagging/commenting as usual. Anything urgent, then past a link into the chatroom here.

Pointy Haired Boss

0

Q: Thank you to the moderators

I was surprised and disappointed to catch up on the events that has led to the dismissal and resignation of three of our moderators. I think that they, and all other moderators on The Workplace, past and present, should be thanked for the time and effort they've all put in guiding our community ...

discussion moderators

2

8:57 AM

I imagine that some time this week, SE will appoint one or more interim moderators from other sites to cover until an election can be scheduled.

I dont envy the CMs right now

goodwill is at an all time low

And they probably aren't directly responsible for any of this mess

Pointy Haired Boss

9:48 AM

0

Q: Is "bad worker" a taboo here?

In the past I had multiple experiences here when I addressed the issue of bad performers, bad managers or "non-contributors", and a few people have been quite negative about the topic. I never had a discussion like "yes, bad workers are a problem and this is how you solve it". It feels it is a ta...

discussion pleasegnatdontclosemegodpleaseno

3 hours later…

12:43 PM

Wow, looks like the next election will be for who turns off the lights.

Mister Positive

I am going to stick around at least until the next group of moderator's are elected or SE decides to do something else.

@Snow I hope I get a voice in who is appointed.

Is this why a bunch of people quit last year?

No.

Mister Positive

@Tina_Sea I don't pay much attention to the network as a whole. We have had, prior to this, one Moderator removed by their choice and one retirement.

I am really only interested in contributing here.

whos left?

12:48 PM

@MisterPositive It will be interesting who volunteers for that after what just happened

I wouldn't

Mister Positive

@Magisch Yes, it will. Moderation is much more demanding than I thought it would be. I hope whoever volunteers does so without taking the responsibility lightly.

@MisterPositive my condolences for managing this ship with 2 people for the foreseeable future

which 2?

Mister Positive

If things stand as they are now, it will be myself and

12:51 PM

Lilienthal and Mr. Positive

Snow and Jane have resigned, although that has not taken effect

Mister Positive

@lilienthal

who's that? I havent seen that name

@MisterPositive also interesting because that'll probably be the shortest pro-tem term ever

@Tina_Sea FWIW, you can see the mods on the users page: (that still includes the pending resignations)

workplace.stackexchange.com/users?tab=moderators

That's strange, I keep hearing the click that says I got a message but I aint seeng anything.

1:06 PM

reload the chat window

that happens on occasion

Lilienthal hasn't had any visible activity in over a month...

Mister Positive

@NotThatGuy He pokes in from time to time.

@MisterPositive Can you actually handle the flag load on your own?

Or will you ask for emergency help from SE?

Mister Positive

So far I am handling it.

I cannot indefinitely though.

If everyone can keep an eye on the Review Queue's that would be super helpful.

1:29 PM

Well, news travels.

@MisterPositive I'm sorry you are left holding the bag, you are one of the people I always respected.

Hey richard long time no see

Mister Positive

@RichardU Thank you.

I don't expect you're too overjoyed with the current situation, but it's good seeing you again

@Magisch It wasn't unexpected, in fact I saw this coming for some time, still sad to see things shake out the way it did.

It's the old saying of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, or the old ironic saying "If it isn't broke, fix it until it is"

Good will is a rare commodity, and very hard to get back once it is lost.

I hope things get better.

geez.. I turn my back for 5 mins and all hell breaks loose

1:40 PM

@motosubatsu Thats what I thought this morning

I had a solid hour of transcripts to catch up on just in the two rooms im RO in

yeah I've been out the loop for a couple of weeks.. between stints on-site for a customer and a holiday away I haven't had much chance to SE

Mister Positive

There is a ton of back story to this situation. I strongly urge you to read all you have access to ( you won't be able to see it all ) before taking any actions or forming any opinions.

Hi @motosubatsu

@MisterPositive That's about 2 hours of required reading for all

@MisterPositive doing some catchup reading now

@RichardU 'sup

1:47 PM

@Magisch the details are unimportant. I've spoken about the problems, others have, MM quit over them, then there was the twitter fiasco, et cetera et cetera et cetera. You don't need to read the full diagnosis to see the disease.

Mister Positive

@RichardU You are entitled to your opinion but making a decision or action plan in this case is not a wise choice IMO without all the information.

I can't really do anything

Even reading everything there is to read about it publicly leaves me with a distinct lack of information outside of the conviction that SE handled the whole thing rather poorly

3

This is pretty much the core of things.

97

Q: Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel

On Friday, half an hour before Shabbat and two days before Rosh Hashana, Stack Overflow Inc. suddenly revoked my moderator status on all sites where I had it. I found this out while handling flags, when I suddenly got notifications for Marshal and Deputy badges (which moderators are ineligible t...

discussion featured moderators

3

@Snow Gee now, doesn't that look familiar. It's almost as if I was railing about stuff like that months ago

@Snow yeah just read that.. paints a pretty damning picture. Monica and I haven't always agreed over everything but I've never known her to be anything but reasonable and fair-minded, reading that I can see why yourself and Jane took the actions you did. Pretty sure I'd have done the same!

1:55 PM

Like I said. you don't need a full diagnpsis to recognize that there's a serious disease

Then of course, there's the five year ban someone else earned.....

Mister Positive

@RichardU That was a bit different, and this person asked for the ban....

@MisterPositive not according to what that person told me. We still talk

Mister Positive

@Magisch yes....and I have re-read some of it. ITs a lot.

@RichardU interesting...but not relevant to this.

@MisterPositive it's part of a greater pattern.

Mister Positive

@RichardU ah, ok. I will give you that as it relates to SE

1:59 PM

While no single drop of water is responsible for the flood, enough of them causes one, nonetheless

I'm still on numerous other help sites, as well as social media, and the disdain for SE is growing. This one is already on Facebook groups.

@MisterPositive you probably have more insight into it then any outsiders ever have

@Magisch he may, but as I said, I predicted this coming well over a year ago from, the new "code of conduct" to various other things SE has done to "crack down" on behavior. Well, it's never long before that is weaponized. I saw Tech Republic take a nose dive and said that this place is going to do the very same thing.

The only thing that shocks me about any of this is that it took this long to come to fruition. I read the post and was not surprised by one word of it, having been on the receiving end of the very kind of witch hunt that Monica now finds herself in.

2:52 PM

Even if we don't understand the full story, some of us feel comfortable trusting the mods that have left.

Shall we all move to Quora?

(Maybe that should be a question in meta :) )

Mister Positive

3:11 PM

168

A: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?

Monica is my captain. There is no one else I would rather follow in this community - she is the perfect embodiment of “leading by example”. She has been a leading light and community builder on every community she's led, and more than a few that she hasn't. The value that's she's added to the pl...

2

@MisterPositive Maybe you should take a bit of a break for a little while?

2

Mister Positive

@GregoryCurrie I am ok for now. ;-}

I'm keen to see workplace become the setting for Mad Max :D

3:27 PM

Mad Max was a good film. "Pearl Harbor" (the one with Ben Affleck) is probably a better fit.

@Snow or that scene in Team America where the puppet just vomits for several minutes straight?

The best scene in the entire film.

Mister Positive

puppet's can't vomit silly

You really need to watch that film.

Mister Positive

um.....not my cup of tea

3:39 PM

@MisterPositive don't let them push everything on you. Take care of yourself first.

Yeah, you need to send a request for assistance to the CM team. Don't do all this yourself.

Welcome back Richard (for as long as you're here). It's good to see you. Life has been extraordinarily boring without you.

@Snow Thank you. I'm very busy these days. Work and life are both full up.

That's good (well, better than being down anyhow). Time for me to sign off though - I have no idea what the morning will bring (but it probably won't be any different than today except for more downvotes).

Mister Positive

@RichardU Thanks. So far I am ok.

4:16 PM

14

Q: Has anyone sued SE for changing licensing?

There seems to be a lot of current drama flowing from the post Stack Exchange and Stack Overflow are moving to CC BY-SA 4.0 and related activities. It seems like some authors who published under 3.0 are upset about the change to 4.0 (oversimplifying). It would seem to me that each of those auth...

discussion legal licensing creative-commons

oof

Mister Positive

@rath That was quickly closed.

@MisterPositive you can't expect SE to tolerate strategizing how to sue them on their own platform though :D

4:36 PM

Huh... it's actually unclosed now. A change of heart?

@Magisch oh, it made the point. That kind of move is Xanatos Gambit.

Allow the thread, and deal with that nightmare, shut it down, and you get accused of hiding something

@RichardU I thought TvTropes links are against the law...

or should be!

(whoops, not a link, just a reference, I was an idiot and looked it up)

@rath I found a loophole. I didn't link to it

@rath... another trap ;)

:D

but seriously, the Xanatos Gambit makes sense here

@rath back in the 1990s, when I used to troll, I would lay such traps. Gave the various admins such a hard time

In my defense though, I was young, and needed the money.

well, I didn't need the money, but I was young

It's sad, but if SE continues it's current course, they are not going to be around too much longer. There are other help sites with less drama.

4:42 PM

I was thinking about that actually, since all the new content is getting CCv4'd, what is preventing a third party from copying existing content and promising the moderation policy the people want?

It's practically already done (dozens of SO clones), ethically and legally it's absolutely fine so long as the license is followed, and morally, well - what's to stop disgruntled users from cloning "their" site and offering an alternative moderation policy?

I'm not saying someone should do it, or that I'd want to, but it seems counter-productive to antagonise your user-base so strongly in this licensing context

Hope that's not a ban-hammer I hear knocking on the door, just my honest and immediate thoughts on the subject

Well I guess it would have to be a "hard fork" (or a No Deal Clone); you couldn't pull new content because you'd also be importing the same moderation policy you claim to abhor. And without easy new content, the clone site would just starve

@rath There was a time when Tech Republic was dominating the internet help sites. Then they changed their COC, and people walked.

People like to be helpful, but they also like to have fun while they are doing it.

The reason so many of my posts get the up votes they do is because I throw my dry, sardonic sense of humor into them along with good advice.

Sites that are most successful have COCs that are clearly defined, and free of micromanagement.

The old "be nice" policy was more that adequate, because that means that EVERYBODY has to be nice to EVERYONE ELSE.

Then things changed, and I got kicked out for a while for using the term "autistic shrieking", despite the fact that I'm autistic. Various people stared getting offended on the behalf of other people, and much silliness ensued.

Mister Positive

4:57 PM

@Magisch No I don't

Pointy Haired Boss

3

Q: Deciding to take a break

I've decided to take a break from Stack Exchange. The reasons are probably pretty obvious, but the details can be found on this Meta about another Meta post I made which was deleted by staff. Knowing myself, I'm sure I'll be lurking and will come back in not too long, but for the time being I don...

@MisterPositive yeah, but the mere fact that it got up was enough to kick over the hornets nesst

@MisterPositive yeah, one day he will learn that once you are in a hole, it's a good idea to stop digging

Wow, first day back, rep capped again

having a mod election at this time will be interesting

@MisterPositive I read your post in Meta. Please be careful, you don't want to get put in the position of being in a cross fire

@Magisch I'm getting out the popcorn

Mister Positive

5:33 PM

@RichardU thank you for your concern. I deleted it as I really am not sure what I am going to do at this time. Until then I will continue to serve as best I can.

6:06 PM

wth happened guys?!

Mister Positive

@DarkCygnus you have some reading to do sir.

112

Q: Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel

On Friday, half an hour before Shabbat and two days before Rosh Hashana, Stack Overflow Inc. suddenly revoked my moderator status on all sites where I had it. I found this out while handling flags, when I suddenly got notifications for Marshal and Deputy badges (which moderators are ineligible t...

discussion featured moderators

speechless

There are also MSE posts and others on other Networks

I can't believe what I'm reading, seems like the Apocalypse

just... wow...

Mister Positive

@DarkCygnus I am still sorting it out. If everything stands there will be two moderators left.

458

Q: Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?

The last weeks and days have seen some erratic behaviour by Stack Exchange Inc., such as likely illegal changes to the content license and the firing of an upstanding community moderator with no explanation except copy-pasted responses (leaving many to believe it was for no good reason). It would...

discussion support moderators community

2

6:27 PM

Yeah, it’s messed up. Where once we had dialogue with the site admin, we don’t any longer. The details might come out, but it’s horrible behind that curtain.

The meta room over at MSO has been frozen, and the meta Q asking about it locked

well, the staff answer to it anyways

CoC change, CEO Change, the Advertisements Test, ....

Just came to my mind that it seems that Masked Man somehow saw this coming, can't help to also recall some of Richard's words

I am still shocked... I'll log out for now as I can't concentrate on my work, but will keep posted... let's hope this is not the end.

7:24 PM

@DarkCygnus I'm used to being an Ignored Expert

We old farts know a thing or two. I watched Tech Republic, and later User Friendly go down this hole, and I was really hoping that SE wouldn't.

8:05 PM

It's going viral....

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21113344

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