The Water Cooler

well in the time it took me to read it and VTC it got closed, so... not a good question

@Lilienthal mod-closed it (nicely)

angarg12

good

is it possible to vote offtopic?

when I try to cast a vote I only have the options for spam and rude/abusive

@ValentinSilvestre Invite to chatroom.

@angarg12 On a question? It could be closed/on-hold already or perhaps you lack a set of permissions, though I thought anyone could flag for off-topic. If you're talking about actual votes you need something like 2k rep I think.

Morning all

@ValentinSilvestre Testing superping.

@ValentinSilvestre Normally this should have created a chat account for you which should allow you to talk here.

8:41 AM

Morning.

My money hasn't evaporated overnight. That's a good start.

@Kaz Morning!

@Nofel Morning!

@motosubatsu Morning

Q: How can I figure out typical salaries for a specific career path related to IT?

-1

Short question I'm wanting to make money as developer or related work, which decisions should I make and where should I look to get response about salaries & more? Explanation I'm actually an informatics student and work in a start-up while I'm studying, it's an apprenticeship or internship, I...

job-search salary career-development careers

Do you think this could be salvaged? OP is interested in having it reopened and made some good edits already but it still feels off-topic to me.

Is it good idea to delete a question a write a new one

2 days and no reply

@Nofel Not usually. If you radically changed the question to the point where you solved the issues the first had and want to start from a clean slate it's typically considered okay to repost.

8:55 AM

@Lilienthal it's much improved following the edits.. still not convinced it is quite there yet though. It's not so much that it's off topic but that it's far too reliant on being able to predict the future

Otherwise it comes across as dishonest.

Edits still push questions to the front page.

And you can start a bounty to draw attention to it if you want.

I still gotta wait 11 hours for bounty

@motosubatsu I agree sadly. And I'm not sure the general question would be useful to the OP.

@Nofel Then it's not 2 days old surely?

@Lilienthal I actually think your suggestion of chat was a good one - it's probably the way of getting the OP the most help

It will become 2 days tonight after 11 hours

@Lilienthal ^

8:58 AM

Hah, ok then.

I want to post whole code but it is has unique variables and might come back to, hey he posted our code there

to get help.

What does one do, when code has unique code that can be searched and your products shows up

@Nofel it's tricky.. about all you can do is redact any company or product specific terms or names

Q: Way to improve my question to be answerable

and some people are like "pls post the whole code"

@RichardU Should I reply to the email my peer sent saying things about SEO and html blosing tags

Feeds

9:39 AM

0

I wanted to get experience about career but it seem like my question was seaking a "future prediction" answer : "What carrier plan is the best for making money as a Developer?" Many edits made it better, but it seem like it's not good enough to make it helpfull for other people. How can I figure...

discussion

10:10 AM

Hopefully I will get more attention on more clear and user test on my new question stackoverflow.com/questions/45347701/…

angarg12

10:42 AM

@Lilienthal I see, thanks, I'm sitting on 1k rep right now, I will try flagging next time

11:04 AM

@motosubatsu Just posted another one, and got -1.

why

11:35 AM

@Nofel no idea I'm afraid

11:49 AM

2

A: How to handle senior developer delegating code instead of doing it?

4

Essentially you can't It sounds like this senior developer is essentially taking the opportunity to not do their work. As an intern there really isn't anything you can do about that directly. In theory the senior dev is only punishing themselves since they will have to pick up an unfamilar codeb...

@motosubatsu You may want to revise your use of "in theory" here.

There's no real "theory" to it, he is just indirectly punishing himself.

@Lilienthal Edited... it's probably just a nuance of my own language use there really - what I was trying to address was any (potential) worry the OP might have about getting the blame for the Senior dev not working with them. Hopefully it should read a bit clearer now :)

@RichardU Is that an existential statement? :)

Feeds

enderland has added Lilienthal to the list of this room's owners.

enderland has added Monica Cellio to the list of this room's owners.

enderland has added Jane S to the list of this room's owners.

12:07 PM

@ValentinSilvestre Apologies in advance for the spam, but I think you should now be able to chat here.

@motosubatsu Yeah I think your "in theory" was connected to the dev shifting the blame later, but in that case the placement of it in the sentence didn't make sense.

Oh, do you have to be a Room Owner to super-ping?

Rory Alsop

@Kaz or a mod, I think

I'm not room owner here - but think I can super ping

@Kaz - yep, looks like it

@Kaz Only moderators can super-ping.

Room owners can add people to the access list of the room.

Moderators can't do the latter.

Admins presumably can, I'm not sure where CMs would fall.

OT but I'm loving the term "super-ping"

12:32 PM

@motosubatsu things have changed so much. While I love the fact that every answer is at your fingertips with the advent of the Web, I do wonder how much this has killed creativity

@RichardU lmgtfy.com/?q=how+much+has+the+web+killed+creativity :D

@motosubatsu yeah, pretty much.... (((sigh)))

It's funny, all that time I spent in "survival mode" has made me pretty darn creative.

@RichardU Depends how you use it.

Like anything, it's a tool, and can be used towards productive ends and non-productive ends alike.

12:54 PM

@Kaz I don't disagree. I just assert that instead of being used as a tool, it is too often used as a crutch. What I like about SO is that your questions will be absolutely savaged if you haven't done your research. IMO, that's part of what keeps the quality up.

1:11 PM

Why wasn't I added to the list of this room's owners? This is SO unfair...! <stamps feet, kicks water cooler, bubbles rise alarmingly>

Q: Is Certified Scrum Master valuable?

1:34 PM

Hmmf. Anyone know whether the Scrum CSM/PSM certificates have any value at all?

18

What is the value in Certified Scrum Master certifications? I'll be quite honest in saying that I've never put a lot of thought into such certifications, but it seems like if you are interested in Agile and wanting to deepen your understanding, that the two day class + test is a worthwhile inves...

agile scrum certification

Hmmm.

I'd kind of question certification when you can learn pretty much everything on the internet. I guess certification is useful on a resume though, which at least proves you have some kind of knowledge.

1:57 PM

@Pete I see what you're saying but a certification offers at least some level of proof that you have learnt those things - whether over the internet or elsewhere

@motosubatsu the only thing a certification proves is that you had the means to take a class and get a piece of paper.

Yep. Which is why it's good for a resume or your LinkedIn profile. I don't have a whole lot of formal certification - I learn what I need from the internet at the time when I need to learn it. Same as most folks, I think.

I remember back in the day when everyone was scrambling to get an MCSE, which we started to call MCSEs "Minesweeper Consultants and Solitaire Experts"

2

@Pete give me a self-taught hacker over a college hack that's had every last bit of common sense and creativity educated out of them any day of the week.

I think I held a MOS certificate at some point. Not even worth mentioning these days.

(I don't know why I mentioned that)

@Pete What MOS? Infantry? Combat medic? Hovercraft engineer? :)

2:11 PM

@RichardU It varies from cert to cert but in many cases you're right. Still even some of the really shitty certs that require little more than knowing how not to stab yourself in the eye with the pencil the gave you to fill out the exam paper at least prove that :D

MOS = Microsoft Office Specialist

@motosubatsu Yes, but the overarching issue is the fact that a new cert comes out, HR idiots think it means more than it does, everyone rushes out and gets one except for people who have been doing the job for years and don't see a need for it, the cert's value becomes nil, HR stops making it a requirement, rinse, repeat

Masked Man

@Pete I used to think what's the big deal in searching answers on StackOverflow, until I found out that knowing what to search for and what to do with the search results is a precious skill by itself.

@MaskedMan - Yes, knowing the search terms is pretty key. Teach a man how to use Google and he'll be intelligent forever....

(as long as safe-search is enabled...)

@Pete I'm finding google to be less and less useful these days, with everyone trying to optimize their placement and some questionable practices by the company itself, I'm going to other search engines.

2:25 PM

Is it unethical to down-vote questions where the OP has bumped an old question with the sole purpose of gaining votes?

for getting programming answers google largely translates as a way to search SO

I've always used Bing myself. But then most of my questions are related to Visual Studio/stackoverflow.

@pete I never thought I'd be praising Microsoft, but yes, Bing is better for most of my searches.

I just have a mis-trust of Google as a whole, I think.

I have no objective evidence, but my experience of Bing, the few times I've accidentally ended up using it, was that Google was just better at finding me what I was looking for.

2:33 PM

Hey guys

what you think of this email

I had ask ABC help with X yesterday but no reply was given to me, until now (25 hours later) and I believe you must have asked him for pair programming. I sense he has an insecurity raising issues like SEO and HTML closing tags, which shows he has no idea of how self-closing tags works and what they are.

Is that ok

how do i end this

@Nofel I am concerned that he is raising issues like SEO and HTML closing tags, due to the nature of closing tags works and what they are. might be better

Point out that he's an idiot without saying it directly

Yeah, that sounds way too strong and judgemental for something you're writing down.

Especially if it's about a colleague or client.

I am writting to manager

"when I raised SEO issues when getting things from Company he mentioned in meeting “We don’t need to worry about validation”. I am open and welcome to communication."

@Nofel the point is to get the manager to investigate. That's why you say "I have concerns" or "due to the nature of". You don't want to seem aggressive or judgmental.

Also, if you can put things in the form of a question, that's even better.

no he doesnt know what closing tags are

I wanna end it with things like he won't consult me but would rather change my code and mummble about pair programing

he dont know BS

2:41 PM

@Nofel "I am concerned that these changes he is making without consulting me may impact my code in unexpected ways"

This will get management's radar up and asking questions, which is what you want

can i add a example

of saying

"like difference between self closing tags and elements

As you are leaving for holidays, Can I ask his full cooperation rather then you asking him

can i add that

@Nofel Since you are dealing with a BS artist, you need to be more tactful than direct, let management ASK what your concerns are and THEN tell them. You want it to look like you really don't want to say anything, BUT, since you forced it out of me.... then unload, but get THEM to approach YOU

Hi,
I asked ABC help with X yesterday but no reply was given to me, until now (25 hours later) after you mentioned pair programming to him. I am concerned that these changes he is making without consulting me may impact my code in unexpected ways

thats it?

something good and nice to end

something that sound me like i am paraniod with him?

So this guy has been told to pair-program with you, but has basically refused to? Or is there a mis-match in the expectations of the collaboration schedule?

no

He is whining to pair program

shit head even dont know abot inline or clock element

and talks about SEO where input type is left open

LMAO

and while a task of his was handed to me, I spend 1.5 days and now giving up

he and manager was mumbling about it

on back

@RichardU so

anything else

2:53 PM

I'd be inclined to forget about your current email and simply address the level of his skill-set with your boss. You should try to get to the core of the issue, not just the current symptom.

how do i do that

@Pete

"Hi, I've been working with ABC on this XYZ piece of work and I have some concerns relating to his level of skill/approach (delete as applicable), could we discuss this with a view to moving this project forward in the most efficient manner. I'd love to work with him, but I also really want to deliver this piece successfully."

Something like that. Of course, I don't know your situation.

Well I do wanna show my manager his reply after 25 hours

whereas he could have saved me 24 hours

of misery

the rest is rest

I'd raise this in a discussion with your manager. Otherwise you might be seen as ranting. Try and make a positive out of it, leading with complaints isn't always the most productive way to start a discussion.

ok

and how do I tell him that what I was doing is done by me

It need to pass onto him

as he is more familiar with it

3:03 PM

"He" = your manager, or your pair guy?

manager

So while I was going out, he asked any progres. I said yes but I need to know why is it happening

he said it is better to pass it on to him i said yea

so when I came back, they were muttering about something is low voice

after which that bullshiter msg me

satying sorry, i read ur msg yesterday

evening

fucker cant see a blinking window asking his help

sorry for bad words

sometimes messaging apps crash, or fail to notify for some reason. If you didn't get an answer, it might have been an idea to chase via email.

It didnt

lately he had been to arrogant

coz he is trying to do my thing

maverick

A: Is it unethical to not hire somebody because of their body odor?

3:37 PM

92

Interestingly enough, I have had this very same concern expressed, more than one time, to me! And so, I can tell you "from the other side of the fence," that I was absolutely unaware of it. And that, once quietly and tactfully informed of it, I spent considerable time pondering what to do. A...

....

When did we turn into LPT?

@Lilienthal LPT?

yeah @Lilienthal LPT?

Q: Can I use meta to ask which answer I should accept?

Life Pro Tips

Feeds

-1

I have a question where I'm not sure which answer to accept. (How do I list an internship on my resume?) Initially when the question was asked, there were only two answers to chose from, which meant I didn't have many options for an accepted answer. Later my question was bountied, which led to ...

discussion specific-question on-topic-definition meta

That answer isn't even remotely related to the workplace nor does it actually answer the question.

3:43 PM

@Lilienthal No, but I feel like it's probably a useful answer. Personally, I'm quite lenient on answers (when done well) that try to address the underlying problem, instead of the specific question asked.

4:57 PM

@Lilienthal you would be surprised at how often odors come up as a management issue.

Q: What to do when my boss tells me to use something illegally?

5:59 PM

1

There is a software product I use that has a professional version, which costs money, and a community version, which is free and less capable. Also, the end user agreement for the community restricts use to individuals and non-profits. When my boss was transitioning into management, he split his...

legal software

Please Kill this ^

Wow, over 200 useful flags

@SoylentGray Why? That is a very common issue

Its not a real question. It is I do not like my managers decision so I want to go around him

I really miss the NARQ close reason

@SoylentGray well, when your manager tells you to do something illegal or unethical, I would expect so.

Actually we need a Canonical my manager made a decision I think is bad how can I get the decision changed question

@RichardU Its not illegal #1

I think we should have a "WTF" reason

6:05 PM

its illegal to sell software designed using it

its not illegal to use the software to develop

this is the problem with licencing questions here they are so complicated people want to make them more narrow than they are

especially when the professional version has features that are really nice

which is the real problem here

And why it doesnt belong on TWP

@SoylentGray fair enough

he edited it.... " Also, the end user agreement for the community restricts use to individuals and non-profits"

Actually it6s not illegal to sell software designed using it. You just need to pay the piper to do it

@SoylentGray GNU licenses are a nightmare to navigate

And that is a strawman because that is not true

I jsut need to quit SE all together

@SoylentGray what's not true? The bit about GNU licenses?

They're slightly less complicated than the rules for dragon poker.

6:27 PM

" the end user agreement for the community restricts use to individuals and non-profits" is not true

There are caveats that allow for small teams to use the community version for development.

@SoylentGray I always used freeware when I could.

@RichardU Eclipse works and has some pretty nice support for .net

but its no Visual Studio

7:08 PM

@SoylentGray 4 close votes. if we ping Enderland or Lilenthal, they'll close it now.

@Lilienthal this is actually almost word for word from training I received to address the exact issue in a management training course I was sent to. — Richard U 3 hours ago

Hmm, this still feels very strong to me @RichardU, though I can see how it's very matter-of-fact.

I'd much prefer the wording used here but I suppose the downside there is that you turn it into an entire conversation.

I do like how straightforward your phrasing is though, I'm kind of on the fence about it now. I'll remove my comment and your reply, you may want to edit the source behind the quote into your answer.

Q: What to do when my boss tells me to use something illegally?

@Lilienthal That sounds like a good idea

@Lilienthal The course recommended this approach as the best one because it is such a hard issue to deal with. The reasoning is that "noticeable odor" is the only way of addressing the issue without being insulting. You are deliberately avoiding saying "you smell" or even that the odor is bad. You just address the issue in what is really the least offensive way possible.

actually, I think I'll add that.

4 close votes for this one!

3

There is a software product I use that has a professional version, which costs money, and a community version, which is free and less capable. Also, the end user agreement for the community restricts use to individuals and non-profits. When my boss was transitioning into management, he split his...

legal software

can we get a fifth? ^^^^^

7:34 PM

@RichardU Yeah, please do, that's a good point.

Also, no need to prefix "edited to add" to your edits. We have an edit history for that. ;)

Re the illegal software question: I'm not sure it really is off-topic. "What options do I have here?" is what we usually suggest people write instead of "What should I do?".

Hah, that was actually edited in. That makes sense.

@Lilienthal done

@RichardU Cheers. And heh, I hadn't realised this was nearly a year old.

7:51 PM

Got another question for the workplace community, wanted to see it would pass the 'sniff' test before committing as a formal question. I was assigned a task in my organization to implement a new initiative. I have consulted my immediate coworkers regarding the word as well as my immediate supervisors. I have a fairly clear idea of what to do and how to do it. But earlier today at a new employee workshop, I recognized that one of the speakers was named the new initiative documentation as a....

very senior leader of the organization. My question is, would it breaking the metaphorical chain of command to ask this leader for informal advice on how the project was envisioned by him/her?

If I were to go through the proper channels, it would take about 5-6 levels on the organizational flow chart to contact him/her.

Correction: change "implement a new initiative" to "begin preliminary work on the framework to implement a new initiative" In other words, a slice of what is commonly known as a project prospectus.

Another correction... change "regarding the word" to "regarding the work".

Q: Why are "shopping list" questions bad?

8:17 PM

@Lilienthal We should not be telling people to ask what options they have... that turns it into a shoppinglist question.

45

My question was closed for being a "shopping list question", even though it was absolutely on topic and programming related. Why?

support stackoverflow questions closed-questions faq-proposed

@FrankFYC What is the actual question you want to ask... as in sum it up in one short line

My question is, would it breaking the metaphorical chain of command to ask this leader for informal advice on how the project was envisioned by him/her? - is very company dependant

You already know the answer is yes you are breaking the chain of command anyway...

@FrankFYC So you could say I want to break the chain of command and ask him some questions. What can i do to minimize the blowback from doing this?

8:39 PM

There isn't a strong culture of a hierarchy, it is an academic institution. But certainly, this would not be within the norm to reach out and solicit advice from senior leadership.

Actually, that reminds me, I should also ask this on academia SE.

8:53 PM

@SoylentGray You are correct, first is "Should I reach out?" If so, "how"?

We can not tell you should you.... we can answer that question that I listed though

it varies some companies are more serious about it than others and some managers more touchy about it than others

@FrankFYC And actually the academic componet makes me think its probably more on the OK side, but again different managers have different sore spots

You manager may be more touchy about it

also if you ask the how can i minimize the fallout question, you are going to get information that may help you decide if you should or not just as part of the answer