The Water Cooler

jmac

02:58

Sorry guys, I think I may have created a slight problem:

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, 10 mins ago, by Shog9

Hey, everyone: go upvote this

That's pinned in the tavern. Expect there to be upvotes. I don't really know what the purpose of it was, but I think Shog is trying to prove a point (not sure what that point is at the moment)

Jim G.

03:29

10

A: When should I start saving/investing for my retirement?

Start now. It's a lot easier to save now than it is to start to save later.

@RhysW: Here's a great example of the "Back It Up Principle". Consequently, it's earned a +10 from the community. ;)

4

A: When should I start saving/investing for my retirement?

Start as soon as you can and make your saving routine. Start with whatever you feel comfortable with and be consistent. Increase that amount with raises, income gains, and whenever you want.

@RhysW: ^^^ Here's another one. :)

-2

A: Should you always max out contributions to your 401k?

Definitely not. You are too young. Let me explain: Your money will be locked up for at least 40 years, and you will have to navigate some really quirky and trap-laden rules in order to get money for simple things. Let's say you want to buy a house. You won't be able to leverage the 401K for ...

^^^ Here's a different opinion. :)

jmac

06:39

@jmac It turns out that his goal was to put a question I wanted in the hot list by advertising it in the Tavern. It doesn't make much sense to me in the context, but I think that it indicates the huge gap in understanding between many SE sites and some of the SE Community Managers on hot questions and the traffic they bring.

jmort253

07:05

@jmac The point he's trying to make is that you can't selectively pick what questions are hot, just like we can't game any other aspects of community building.

RhysW

08:23

@jmac It seemed a lot less effective than gnats attempts to get people to vote though :P

CMW

:-)

RhysW

@JimG. hah, that one seems downvoted by people who disagree with the opinion though, not because the answer is a 'bad one'

RhysW

08:57

0

Q: How can I get my boss to understand that results matter just as much as appearances?

A recent problem is that my boss is more worried about how our actions make him appear to the rest of the company than he is about the actual results of our work. For example he is willy to deliver a poor product on time so that he looks good in the eyes of his superiors (having lots of on time...

my first question in a long time

RhysW

09:10

We really need to add a new section to our FAQ, just realised our 'What can i ask about page' never says what you CAN ask about, only what you CAN'T ask about, might be the source of some confusion

RhysW

09:27

@jmort253 do you still have those links to the workpalce blog trello board? cant seem to find where i saved mine

jmac

09:55

I don't understand why this Michael character has come on to a meta question and decided to be, errrr, curt with me?

Take a look at the stats you give in your 'cleaning up' answer. It appears that of the top 7 answers (which I consider good answers), 6 of them gained votes while the question was being targeted for cleanup. That is the sign of a good answer to the question that the community approves of, not a flood of noobs randomly clicking buttons. I think the question was good too, and I think the fact that it's listed as +72 in your stats but at +79 now bears that out. It looks like a good question with good answers at the top, with a little bit of chaff at the bottom. — Michael Shaw 57 mins ago

@RhysW Correct this post and propose it to our soon-to-be-elected mods:

10

Q: Editing the Help Center

It looks like our FAQ link now redirects to a help center. I don't think it has the same information as it used to (it would seem, not 100% positive). This is apparently universally rolled-out across all SE sites according to this meta post. Personally I find it much more difficult to find what...

discussion faq-content help-center

RhysW

10:14

@jmac ok...hey jmac im gonna edit a post, i propose these changes to you :P

@jmac holy cow thats a lot of text in that convo chain

can slowly watch where i am reading by which ones get +1'd in that chain

jmac

@RhysW Those are pretty one-sided upvotes Rhys. I don't know if I approve.

How do I know if you become mod you won't do the same thing again?

RhysW

10:31

@jmac I vote where i agree, stop posting agreeable things :P

@CMW might want to update your answer a small amount to my now edited question

gnat

10:57

@jmac what this guy calls "a little bit of chaff at the bottom" is, like, about 20 answers of 28. That "chaff" simply overwhelms the wheat, luckily about dozen of these "answers" are now removed

Alex M.

hiya

RhysW

Hey there both gnat and alex

...gnalex perhaps

Alex M.

lol

Hugo Rocha

12:24

Gnalex? lol

morning

Alex M.

morning

RhysW

Hey hugo :P

CMW

@RhysW I still think my answer fits your question but I will add a couple words here and there :)

hey hugo and gnalex

enderland

12:44

7

Q: How can I approach career development with a boss who doesn't seem to support this?

I really enjoy my current job. The team is friendly, my manager is friendly, and the work is challenging, interesting, and fulfilling. Because of this, I have no interest in leaving this company or necessarily quitting my current position. The thing is, I don't feel like my manager is interested...

career-development management

how is this any different than this

4

Q: My boss seems evasive about my career path... should I raise this?

I've been working for a large website for just over two years now, firstly as a web designer, and then, for the last nine months, as a front end developer. I made that change by announcing, about a year ago, my intentions to my boss that I wanted to go into full-stack development, with front end ...

management career-development

CMW

@enderland The underlying fears seem deeper with the second question, but the strategies are probably the same

enderland

@jmac maybe the SE team is paranoid about layoffs? :P

Chad

1

Q: How can I show my boss that aiming only for quick wins is causing more problems than it solves?

A recent problem is that my boss is more worried about how our actions make him appear to the rest of the company than he is about the actual results of our work. For example he is willing to deliver a poor product on time so that he looks good in the eyes of his superiors (having lots of on time...

management deadlines

I swear we have had this question at least once before and had some good answers too it but I do not have time to find it right now

CMW

@jmac I wonder if I should point out, that the answer 'no' to that question by no means acknowledges anything. It's basic inference-implication-fallacy

just to make it interesting

gnat

13:06

when I see SO questions like this - stackoverflow.com/questions/21850907/… - I always ask myself, why are SO guys so poor on upvotes

Hugo Rocha

@gnat good question. Maybe the answer is the same as why the folks around here do not like to log anything

RhysW

@Chad if you find it please let me know! :P

Hugo Rocha

maybe... maybe... <<<< really maybe; Laziness? :P

RhysW

a history of SO things gnat told us to upvote: stackoverflow.com/users/1645826/…

CMW

@RhysW a history invisible to the naked eye

RhysW

13:10

apparently they care less about serial upvoting :P

CMW

(i.e. it may be something only the profile owner can see?)

RhysW

ahh i guess you gys cant see that page

basicaly its blocks of 10 upvotes all on 1 question, spannig my last 4 pages

CMW

:D

Hugo Rocha

It's more than meets the eye?

CMW

thumbs up

RhysW

13:19

nonononono, they plan to integrate bing with visual studio. nope. thats it, i quit, time to stop being a developer

2

CMW

how in the world would that have any effect on a developer?

Hugo Rocha

@CMW It seens you are looking for "LINQ". Let me find that for you... in BING!

CMW

@HugoRocha That would assume you actually use visual studio...

;-)

Hugo Rocha

But I do use :P

i use vs in here, with notepad ++ and context

at home I use context and flashDevelop for scaleform

CMW

by the way, let's get @RhysW 's question HOT! he & I need the rep :D

Hugo Rocha

13:27

and vs for this and that :D

also blender, flstudio, and a lot of stuff...

ripple, intel xdk...

and of course, not excluding my engines

I like trains. And engines.

CMW

oh well... :)

I like engines too

and trains

guides.rubyonrails.org/engines.html

:D

Hugo Rocha

hahahahahahha

true

Hey CMW

it seens you are using ruby on your apps

you should totally drop that and use JQuery

RhysW

@CMW its already half way up the hot questions list

@CMW because i use visual studio as my ide?

CMW

@RhysW That sucks then :D

RhysW

:P .net developer

i wonder if i will be able to turn the bing feature off somehow

CMW

13:37

@HugoRocha Why should I drop a whole language for a framework? :)

@RhysW maybe in your hosts file

just redirect bing's domain to google's IP

or the one of duckduckgo

Hugo Rocha

88

Q: When is "use jQuery" not a valid answer to a JavaScript question?

How many JavaScript questions can be answered with "use jQuery"? Looking at JavaScript questions, all too often the answer seems to be "use jQuery," sometimes in as few words. We can end up with answers which feel more like plugs getting the asker to try jQuery (the Silver Bullet) than a concise...

discussion answers javascript

RhysW

haha

@HugoRocha never, its always a valid answer

Hugo Rocha

I know

I should drop UDK and use Jquery instead on my personnal projects

such query

CMW

much jay

Hugo Rocha

well, I'll be off to xaml today

see you guys later

RhysW

13:43

@CMW youll get the rep, ill get my answer :P

questions askers dont usually get a lot of rep unless the title is something scandalous

CMW

14:02

@RhysW you could just replace all instances of 'my boss' or 'my manager' with 'Mark Zuckerberg' :)

Chad

14:49

@RhysW They care if you serial upvote a person not a question and its answers

So if you were to go look at all my questions and answers and only upvote 7 or 8 of them then the serial voting script would kick in

Michael Shaw

@jmac: I'm disagreeing with you, not "being curt".

RhysW

@Chad ahh that makes more sense

Hey there michael

Michael Shaw

@gnat: On that question, the top 7 or so answers are good, long, and pretty heavily upvoted. I'm not against removing chaff, but I don't think you can say that the chaff is overwhelming the wheat when you'd have to scroll down the page awhile to see any.

RhysW

@MichaelShaw I believe gnat means overwhelming in number, not necessarily in visibility

i.e 20 out of 27 is an overwhelming amount compared to the 7

CMW

Is answers ordered by votes always the default?

RhysW

15:00

its the default yeah, unless users change it

CMW

I mean there are other orders, making the 'scrolling down to see chaff' argument somewhat weaker

ok

RhysW

I wonder why CM's need to be fluent in japanese

CMW

for SE?

RhysW

yeah

CMW

maybe to M the japanese C?

RhysW

15:09

does SE have a japanese C?

CMW

well at least there is a japanese language SE

RhysW

(facepalm)

was just looking at the requirements and the japanese is the only one i couldnt grasp the reasoning for

CMW

:-)

applying?

RhysW

i don't speak japanese

CMW

I meant at SE in general, not for that particular position

jmac

15:13

They are looking for a Japanese CM, perhaps to handle a Japanese SE, or perhaps just to help moderate certain communities?

@MichaelShaw You are a new user who is very aggressively telling me that you're not making assumptions when you are (very clearly) doing so.

RhysW

@CMW ahh, i doubt im up to standards for SE

4

A: Any update about this site?

Stack Overflow em Português is our first* foray into localizing Stack Overflow into languages other than English. The good news is that the private beta is going well. Look forward to hearing about public beta in the new year. For more on the reasons for picking Portuguese, listen to a recent ...

jmac

@MichaelShaw Curt isn't the right word since you're pretty wordy in general, but some of the things in there certainly are. e.g.:

If you think that's what I think, then you either haven't read my answer to your question, or you didn't understand it. If you didn't bother to read it, I would invite you to do so. If you didn't understand it, then I would appreciate if you would say what was confusing or unclear. I don't know why you are talking about speculating: I have talked about the fact of replacing 2 developers, not my speculations. The answers to the question you object to have been approved by the community, with the top 7 answers having upvote counts from over a dozen to over a hundred. — Michael Shaw 7 hours ago

specifically the "If you didn't bother to read it, I would invite you to do so." which tingles my internet sense for passive aggressiveness and rubs me the wrong way.

I spent a fair amount of time reading through all your comments and taking the time to respond to you. In return you tell me I didn't read your answer? That doesn't rub me the right way. It isn't trying to have an honest discussion, it's just trying to win an internet argument.

I took the time to sit through and read (carefully) everything you said, and rather than try to drop to playing a game of internet ping-pong (read: point-counterpoint) I took the time to get to the point I was making rather than a sidetrack.

3

RhysW

If there was ever a person to take the time to read, comprehend, and then compose a response to someones comments in a constructive way, its jmac

Chad

I found a closed dupe

15

Q: How to Deal With Unreasonable Expectations?

My boss is asking for unreasonable levels of productivity from me. Our product is a lower quality than the majority of other products in this area, and the owner isn't willing to go through the expense to upgrade our product. I've compiled and delivered a collection of ways we could improve our ...

work-experience

jmac

At any rate, your participation in TWP or its meta is welcome of course (in so far as you follow the rules), but I strongly request that if you want to have a discussion, you respect the other person. Rule #1 of the SE sites is play nice

RhysW

15:25

@jmac rule 1 is actually dont talk about SE

jmac

@RhysW Nah, I get miffed a whole boatload. I'm just good at either: a) editing them before I hit post, b) deleting them after I hit post, c) putting out so much content you'll never ever find them (mwahahahaha)

RhysW

@jmac the end result is the same :P

side note, wanna teach me japanese? :D

jmac

Rule #1: Don't talk about SE
Rule #2: There are no rules
Rule #C: Play nice
Rule #♨: ???
Rule #5: Profit

gnat

@MichaelShaw we're probably viewing it using different tabs. My default tab is active (I guess this one is preferred by many regular who re-read posts, checking new / updated answers first) and in that tab, lots of good answers are pushed deep down to the bottom of the page. Try that view if you're interested; if your rep also allows to see deleted answers, it's going to be even more painful

jmac

Japanese lesson #1: The character in the 4th rule represents bath houses.

RhysW

15:27

@jmac Precisely

@jmac I think you are pulling my leg

jmac

No, it really does. I mean, it's a symbol, not a chinese character, but ♨ does mean bath.

RhysW

woo, now i can go to japan and tell everyone to ♨, world domination here i come

jmac

The chinese characters would either be 温泉 (onsen, hot springs) or 銭湯 (sento, public bath)

No, you can go to Japan and find places to bathe. Which is also a handy skill.

reading is in lesson #3.

(not really)

gah, 12:30

bed time

RhysW

haha, lesson 1 complete, cya later jmac

Though im actually considering learning japanese, so ill be able to pester you in two languages soon

Michael Shaw

15:56

@gnat: Fair enough. Although given your description, I'm not sure I want to start using painful mode...

Jin

hello

CMW

hi

RhysW

Hey jin!

Jin

hello. i bring good news.

RhysW

Ooh, we do like good news

Jin

16:00

we've been working on the css conversion of the design Stéphane presented

we may launch the site today! (3-4pm EST)

2

I'm going over for final rounds of css fixes right now

RhysW

Today!? No way! That's some of the best news we've had since we saw the designs!

Jin

Stéphane has been working hard!

CMW

awesome

(what offset is EST again?)

RhysW

If there is a complaints / satisfaction process, i'd like to abuse it to give him as much praise as is possible

CMW

-5?

RhysW

16:02

Many thanks to Stéphane, and the rest of the team

@Jin Do you know if he will be turning up here on the site to 'launch the ship' as it were?

I'm sure many people would like to thank him

(again)

gnat

@MichaelShaw in regular questions, not littered with garbage answers, I find this mode most convenient. "re-read posts, checking new / updated answers first"

Jin

@RhysW ha once the site launches we'll post a announcement post on meta.workplace.

you can also report any css bugs you see once the site is launched

RhysW

@Jin would you prefer these to be reported in one question on meta.wp or as one question per css bug?

Jin

@RhysW one post per issue, tagged with "design" and "bug" so it'd be easy to track

RhysW

gotcha, i meant to ask earlier, i presume the new css will also affect this chat room?

Jin

16:11

@RhysW yep. maybe not right away, but this room's theme will change.

RhysW

ahh cool, im curious to see it all come together now, the designs really blew me away

Jin

StackWorkplace

@StackWorkplace, The Stack Exchange network

1.9k tweets, 87 followers, following 0 users

^ twitter account will get a visual update too

and email newsletters

basically, all beta look will be updated to the new one

RhysW

wow, when you graduate a site you really pull out the stops

CMW

:-)

Jin

it's all about consistent branding!

RhysW

16:18

true, means if the workplace blog goes ahead, as we keep trying to make it do, we will have a high standard to match it to!

Jin

I wish Stéphane would be here for the launch. (He lives in France so it's late for him over there).

I'll be launching the site on his behalf. All praises/complaints go to him :)

RhysW

yeah 3-4pm est is 8-9pm here in the uk, so imagine itll be even later in france, will have to make sure to thank him if i see him

Jin

@RhysW where are you in UK?

RhysW

Just a little to the side of London

Jin

@RhysW great, FYI: stackexchange.com/london

Stéphane is attending that party. If you're free, please come

RhysW

16:23

Yknow, I just might!

Thanks for that, I was unaware there was an event happening

CMW

stackexchange.com/berlin sadface

Jin

@RhysW our London office is mostly for sales, but we'll have NYC employees flying out there for the open house party

@CMW maybe one day... :)

CMW

:)

maybe a POST instead of a GET will magically make it happen

RhysW

Awesome, will have to hope there is still a spot left

CMW

that's how the internet works, right? REST and all?

:D

RhysW

16:26

Ahh and it's right by trains, perfect

"You're going! Your order is complete."

Jin

ah hmm change of plans. one of our core dev is out today. so the launch may be pushed back couple of days. which gives me more time to bug check

sorry for the premature announcement, i should've checked with him first. but the site is definitely launching soon! i'll keep you guys posted

RhysW

@Jin No harm no foul, thanks for keeping us posted!

@Jin side question, do you know how many people (roughly) will be attending the event in London?

Jin

16:46

@RhysW hmm I have no idea. at least 100+ i think

I heard the new London Office is quite big

RhysW

I'm curious, why does SE need a sales department? Presumeably they do things other than just these sites then

Jin

@RhysW we have a job listing site: careers.stackoverflow.com

we basically have two products in the company, Careers and the Q&A side

RhysW

ahh forgot about the careers side

Doesn't SE also make internal systems for companies? I.e i imagine a large company would be more than happy to have SE design their knowledge base for employees built on the SO model for example? Or did i mishear that from somewhere

Jin

17:02

@RhysW no. we used to have a hosted SE service, but we stopped that a while back.

RhysW

ahh, im probably thinking of that then, thanks for all the info though!

Jin

people thought if they had the same software as SO, their Q&A site would be just as successful :)

but they don't realize, it's not about the software or design, it's all about the community.

8

RhysW

though the software does help the community to come together

so they basically only had a part of the equation

The variety in the community has got to be one of the biggest helping factors

Jin

@RhysW yeah agreed. it still amazes me how fast stackoverflow loads with its traffic.

enderland

18:00

@RhysW I don't think we have to worry too much about our blog taking off :P

Chad

18:50

@Jin I would go to the party but that is like noon here and I have to work... not to mention its like 1500 for a plane ticket

And I am leaving for vegas the next morning and I really do not want that jet lag for a weekend in Vegas

Jin

@Chad that's why I'm not going either!

Michael Shaw

19:06

@jmac: I don't know what assumptions you think I'm making. I made the response you quote after you had apparently just threatened to flag my answer (when this didn't make sense), and you had just told me that I'd said the opposite of what I'd said in my answer. Neither of those would make sense if you had both read and understood my answer.

@jmac: I have also read all of your comments carefully, and I've tried to respond to every point you make. I have asked three separate times whether you thought my answer was unclear or you didn't understand it, and I have yet to receive a response.

Chad

@MichaelShaw Comments are not for chat like that... so it is better that you are here.

2

@MichaelShaw My problem with your post is this In the question you link, there is an assumption that having a culture of punctuality on a software development team is indispensable - Actually it is a requirement being forced upon the OP by his management as a result of poor performance of the team...

Telling the OP to ignore the directives of his management is akin to telling the op to get himself fired...

And "Have you stopped beating your wife" is a badanalogy there.

jmort253

20:07

@Jin @RhysW - Here's a good example of why having a Q&A site within the SE network is a good thing.

brightjourney.com/q/daily-habits-hacks-make-effective-business

Jin

@jmort253 that site took our data dump. most content were generated from the old onstartups.se site

enderland

22:13

@RhysW I was talking to my coworker today about how annoying the "value" vs " time spent" comparison often is in software dev

I added a "close form" button which took all of 30 seconds and was great eye candy

but the "this is causing obscure data errors" bug which is going to take a lot longer to fix is going to require a ton more time and receive on accolades :)

enderland

22:30

-2

A: Should I enquire about my staff's private life?

Even though personal and work habits and styles are always related and affect one another, I think his personal life should be out of bounds of anyone's concern in the workplace. I would be more inclined to set expectations, objectives and benchmarks he will be measured against, even put him on ...

deletion bait?

CMW

@enderland has a couple of VLQ flags already

enderland

22:49

... why? This doesn't really answer the question meaningfully other than "here are my thoughts!" — enderland 24 mins ago

Patricia.

23:02

@jmort253 @RhysW @Jin Well SE shut down that community of 18K users. The Area 51 thread: discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/12807/…

I'd say the community is doing well having relaunched. 99% of all new questions are providing excellent information... brightjourney.com/q/get-pr-publicity-startup brightjourney.com/q/validating-business-idea-inexpensively-fast brightjourney.com/q/best-way-use-5000-budget-grow-startup brightjourney.com/q/getting-mobile-app-found-app-store

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