SE Diplomacy

Doorknob

00:32

gahhh I forgot to do my build

oh well...

user61230

07:06

I was wondering...

Air

16:51

@Doorknob @Undo @Emrakul @michaelpri @JeremyBanks @CanadianLuke Thanks for an interesting game; now we can talk about whatever we like in the chat room. Debriefing time! cc @Seth

> The game is waiting to finish as a Draw. This may take an hour

Wow... they really are running this app on a toaster

3

Undo

@Air I'm so totally going to steal that comparison

Air

@jimsug @Zizouz212 @ArtOfCode @jmac Game I has finished, now's the time to see who wants to start up Game II

@Undo I'm sure I stole it from someone else, so feel free.

RIP Brave Little Toaster. My mom recorded over you on VHS years ago and I still have not forgiven her for it.

user61230

....the game is waiting to end.

user61230

....surely (hopefully) their server isn't actually spending an hour processing this game...

user61230

Well played all, by the way.

Air

17:03

@Emrakul For the record, you're lucky Austria and Turkey didn't feel like playing it out. ;)

user61230

Truth be told, my next builds were fleets.

Air

I don't play for draws.

user61230

More ground armies would have been redundant.

user61230

I was actually debating building a fleet in Kiel or Berlin, but I figured that would be too aggressive when a draw would be easier.

Air

You wouldn't have had any more builds, mein Freund

user61230

17:05

I definitely would've had at least two or three.

user61230

Given that I'm poised to take a couple more pieces of Austria.

user61230

(It's fair that I was banking on Turkey and Austria continuing to infight, though.)

Air

A Tun-Bel
F WMED Convoy A Tun-Bel
F MAO Convoy A Tun-Bel
F ENG Convoy A Tun-Bel
A Mar-Bur
A Wal-Yor
A Tus-Rom
F TYR-Nap
F GOL-TYR

Unless you were more suspicious than I think, you were losing at least Edinburgh and possibly Holland

user61230

I moved NTH and DEN.

Air

Would have been very interesting to see :)

user61230

17:10

Which would have locked down HOL, RUH, MUN, NTH, HEL, and also almost assuredly guaranteed me BEL after one year.

user61230

It would have been interesting to play out

user61230

I definitely would have lost the Mediterranean side of things, though.

Air

If you built a third fleet, you might have gotten into Belgium eventually.

You know, when Undo accidentally surrendered, I entered invasion orders... reversed them when he came back. Lucky you.

user61230

I'd have three power to attack BEL after one year... hm.

Air

I already had ENG and Bur to support, and was getting more builds.

user61230

17:13

Your maximum to hold is four, though.

user61230

And... that would require the dedication of four units in places that don't offer much other utility.

Air

Six units can hold all of France, Iberia and Italy against ground assault. That's eight centers. Worth it.

user61230

Mm.

user61230

Yeah, you probably had the upper hand overall.

Air

Without Italy, it's not so great - five to hold five.

user61230

17:17

That's actually the primary reason I forced the draw issue this turn.

user61230

You either say "Okay, we're going to win if we work together," or "No, I'm backstabbing you now."

Air

I think we were close to even up until the point that you consider the first strike advantage. There wasn't much I could to do to stop or even slow your advance in the east.

user61230

Yeah.

user61230

Now that I think about it... I'm not sure how it would have played out.

user61230

It really depends on whether @Doorknob would have been okay demilitarizing and pushing westward with me, too.

Air

17:18

Whichever of us struck first at this point would probably have won, but I had a weakness you didn't in that I'd have had to rely to an extent on Turkey staying defensive

user61230

Yeah

user61230

I was vaguely aware that you couldn't really backstab me while giving me a full turn's warning

Air

I don't think I've played France before, but I can see why it has a slightly positive win rate.

user61230

It's commonly considered one of the most versatile starting points.

user61230

I'm not sure it's that France is more powerful, but rather that it has more options for working with people effectively?

Air

17:20

@Emrakul The only way I could have done it is just as you moved out of range. I.e., this next season, I'd have had to move to threaten Edi just as you moved out of NWG.

user61230

True, but if you'd rejected the draw proposal my next move would have been NTH.

Air

Yeah, calling that vote was a good move. Bit of a game of chicken, unless Austria or Turkey were stubborn, you'd smoke me out.

If Turkey had voted no and I voted yes, would you still have moved NTH?

In that case you could have "forgotten" to order the fleet out of NWG, too

user61230

For me not to move NTH, you would have had to vote before Turkey, voted yes, and then Turkey would have had to vote no.

user61230

In other words, because Turkey voted before you, NTH was a guarantee.

Air

Interesting. I might have arranged it with him if he hadn't been careless with his espionage earlier.

user61230

17:24

It might have been up to Turkey to decide the winner at that point, then.

user61230

I'd be fighting a losing battle in a three-front war, and without your alliance, Turkey would be the only other option.

user61230

Whoever Turkey picked was guaranteed to win.

Air

That's why I like playing through the late game, in general. You can have a surprising amount of influence from what looks like a losing position.

If Turkey was slow to mobilize and didn't build fleets, I might have been able to lock him out of ION... I'm not actually sure what the stalemate line options are there.

user61230

That's true...

user61230

Turkey probably wouldn't have chosen to ally with you, to be honest.

user61230

17:27

The logic being: "I ally with France, they steamroll Germany, and... then what? They draw peaceably with me?"

Air

I dunno. The alternative is the same. And you might be underestimating how much more powerful you appeared to be than me.

user61230

....that's fair. My army got a little silly toward the end.

Air

Yeah, the trade-off of not having to deal with much of a naval opponent was you racing through the mainland.

This was a bit of an artificial game though in terms of how mixed the experience levels were, one of the reasons I don't mind moving on - we've all seen how it works now.

user61230

Yeah, that's also true.

Air

France's options at the start were really stressful for me, actually, but once I got going I really appreciated the ability to go heavy fleets.

user61230

17:31

It can turn sour pretty quickly if negotiations don't go well early on.

user61230

Also, as an aside, you shouldn't have signaled that you intended to play for a solo victory that early in the game ;)

user61230

I wouldn't have been nearly as suspicious

Air

Oh, when was that?

user61230

All of my moves were predicated on "If I were France trying to backstab Germany..."

user61230

Uhhh.... let's see...

Air

17:32

ah, that's the way I like it!

Trust no one!

Seven Fox Mulders sit down to play a board game...

user61230

[grins]

user61230

Okay, seriously, where was this... there was something very specific you said that put me on edge...

user61230

Oh, hold on, first of all, were the messages that Turkey forwarded to me actually written by you?

user61230

They seemed just a bit too knowledgeable and precise to be a feint.

user61230

(That's not the point where I got suspicious, though that certainly didn't help.)

Air

17:36

I think so? I'd have to check the wording

user61230

> I think we're headed for a race, tbh. You have a slight head start but it's still early.

Air

Oh, that. I was assuming you'd already caught on by that point that I play for keeps.

That message was actually intended to put you at ease.

user61230

> Do you want a safe game or an interesting one? [to a proposal that would have been a seriously bad plan for me]

user61230

Fall 1901

Air

Oh, no! I loved that plan! That was great!

user61230

17:38

Yes, for you! ;)

Air

I'll have to look it up, I forget what exactly it entailed

Ohhhh yeah. The "Bourbon!"

user61230

Mm!

user61230

...looking back on this, we put a ton of thought into literally every move

Air

Yeah, I had every intention of following through on that - it would have been such a mind screw for the rest of the board.

@Emrakul Partly because nobody else was feeling chatty, I think

user61230

I really liked the idea, actually, and I'll probably not be playing as safely in the future

user61230

17:42

because playing safely is booooooring

Air

Losing Munich would have been very risky for you but, to be fair, you pretty much had a lock on Scandinavia

High risk/high reward

user61230

It probably would have hurt me in the long run

Air

Might have. I didn't follow it too far forward because there was so little information at that point.

user61230

Actually, looking through the order history, I think I might (?) have lost a unit there.

user61230

It took a turn or two longer than I expected to lock out Scandanavia because of Russia's fleet

Air

17:47

Well, if you'd agreed, I might have ordered A Spa-Mar hoping Italy would aggress. I was also considering risking the loss of Marseilles though. And you took three SCs that year so there's no way losing Munich was going to cause you to lose a unit.

Two of them were guaranteed.

user61230

...oh, whoa, you're right

user61230

Now I'm trying to remember why I wasn't thrilled with the plan

Air

Your NAP with Austria at the beginning is what really put you over the top, after England and Russia's opening mistakes.

That was a very good deal.

user61230

Yes, I was exceedingly happy with how that went.

Air

Austria tends to be pressured enough early that a German/Austrian alliance isn't often a great boogeyman for opponents to use as motivation for opposing alliances.

user61230

17:52

I actually had a much more subtle purpose in that...

user61230

Austria would seek an alliance with either Russia, Turkey, or Italy.

user61230

Given that we were nonaggressing, they would act in place of me to discourage attacks on my border.

user61230

That gave me the tolerance I needed to attack when it was right for me rather than having to defend off the bat.

user61230

In all three cases, I only have to worry about either zero or one encroaching attacker. Austria picked Turkey, which meant I was pushing back against Russia.

Air

I wish I could remember my first game of Diplomacy. All I can clearly recall is that I was Italy and I got wiped out really quickly.

user61230

17:54

This was my first game

user61230

I don't remember anything about it.

user61230

This was the first game that I actually took seriously

user61230

I think I was actually also Germany in that game.

user61230

18:11

So. @ArtOfCode, @jimsug, @Seth, and @Zizouz212 have expressed interest in a second game of Diplomacy.

user61230

Also, iirc, @jmac was interested a while ago, but was busy at the time.

ArtOfCode

@Emrakul Woah that was a long time ago.

user61230

Are you guys still interested in another game?

ArtOfCode

Yep.

user61230

Yeah, the current one just finished

ArtOfCode

18:12

Aye, I saw that

user61230

Neat.

user61230

@Doorknob, @Undo, @JeremyBanks, @CanadianLuke, @michaelpri, @Air, @Myself: there are probably going to be a few openings in a second game if you guys are interested.

user61230

(I'm just coordinating interest at this point. I probably won't play myself, but can help get people together and get the game going.)

Canadian Luke

@Emrakul As much fun as it was, I don't think the game is for me. I appreciate being given the opportunity to play though. Thanks again

user61230

Fair enough! Thanks for playing, and I hope it was fun!

Seth

18:24

I'm not sure I can make the commitment anymore.

user61230

Mkay!

Seth

Keep me in the loop, but I probably can't make it.

Air

I think I'm going to pass on game II, unless needed to fill out 7 spots.

My phone battery hates me for using it to check on Diplomacy every day (and sometimes my data usage too)

michaelpri

22:20

@Emrakul I actually initially chose to form an alliance with Russia, but then Russia and Turkey were teaming up against me when Turkey offered (I think he offered) to be allies and push back against Russia. I would've been gona sooner if I hadn't accepted that.

@Emrakul I'll join if you need to fill a spot, but I don't wanna take somebody that is new's spot.

user61230

23:05

Oh, wow, there really was a Juggernaut.

user61230

That's fascinating.

michaelpri

23:18

> You might think you're in an alliance with Russia. Guess what Russia sent me?

"Austria wants my help attacking you early. I replied in support, but I'm actually moving all my forces into position attack him, as you'll see. I shall defend you by crushing him!"

user61230

....now I'm confused.

user61230

@JeremyBanks, @Doorknob... what happened in the beginning there?

michaelpri

Turkey sent me that in Spring 1902

user61230

23:32

Weird.

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