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Pandya
Pandya
06:03
Hi! May I ask a question something like "What are the distribution-independent (or package-manager independent) ways to install and update packages other than compiling from source?" on site?
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
@Pandya Um, sure, but I don't quite see how you would be able to avoid building from source if you don't want to use a package manager at all.
Pandya
Pandya
@Kusalananda Hmm. That means there is no such way I am looking for. Btw, how pip install etc. works?
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
pip is specifically for Python software. In the same way, cpan is specifically for Perl.
Some frameworks (languages etc.) have their own "package manager" for libraries/modules/etc.
Pandya
Pandya
@Kusalananda Yes, I want to know more about them.
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
cabal is the same, but for haskell, etc.
Pandya
Pandya
06:17
And docker can also do something?
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
Docker is just a way of wrapping an application or service up in a container.
(waves hands)
Pandya
Pandya
I saw a way to install package using docker
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
Yes, you start with a basic container template, then install the things you need in it. It's not really different than installing things on any other system (in the end).
People use apt to install stuff in Docker containers.
... or whatever else is needed to get prerequisite software installed.
@Pandya You have a question, but you haven't mentioned your issue.
Pandya
Pandya
@Kusalananda No issue I just want to know how those way works
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
If you ask your question, be sure to give a bit of context. It's quite broad otherwise.
Pandya
Pandya
06:23
What nature of question should be.
I mean how pip, docker etc. works or what are package-managers by languages etc...
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
pip and Docker are not really comparable. You may use pip to install Python things in Docker.
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
06:39
@Pandya Why don't you want to use a package manager?
In general that is the best way to go.
Pandya
Pandya
06:50
Btw, [Not related to above discussion] have again crashed my system blaming apt. This happened me third time.
apt removes many useful essential packages as sudo apt install -f
@FaheemMitha I am thinking if possible to get packages without depending on distributions. some times some packages are not found in repository or not Updated.
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
07:06
@Pandya That's true. But in those cases a local install is reasonable. What examples did you have in mind?
Note that backporting more recent versions, or even modifying the packaging slightly for more recent versions, is not so hard.
@Pandya That shouldn't happen.
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
07:30
@FaheemMitha -f means "force"? Well, then.
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@Kusalananda No, it stands for fix.
Pandya
Pandya
07:50
@FaheemMitha I tried to install libcairo2 from deb (using dpkg) and that failed to install. So I do apt install -f which removed lots of packages which resulted in broken desktop environment ans essential apps
(Though libcairo2 is installed but I wanted to update)
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@Pandya Why were you trying to install libcairo2? And what is your distribution?
If you have weird behavior, it often arises from package mismatching.
You could post a question.
Pandya
Pandya
08:05
@FaheemMitha To update. Distribution is Trisquel which I run on my Desktop Computer. I use Debain on my Laptop which doesn't have any issue :)
Updating this package to solve this issue/bug (read third last message)
Btw, I am planning to leave Trisquel :(
Will live with Debian and probably try Guix :)
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
08:21
@Pandya Smart move. I would stick to Debian.
@Pandya You need to be careful when updating packages manually. It can easily break your system.
Pandya
Pandya
@FaheemMitha I also stick to Debian as I said I use it on my Laptop.
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@Pandya Ok. And if you have any issues, you can post it on the site. But it's better to avoid issues. And the best way to avoid issues is to be careful when you do things like updating packages manually.
Pandya
Pandya
Yes :)
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
Base packages are best left alone. They can break a lot of stuff if you mess with them.
Pandya
Pandya
But I am disappointed with how apt brakes the system with --fix option! :(
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
08:26
@Pandya It's not apt's fault. It's working with what it's given.
Pandya
Pandya
One should carefully use it
Sometimes autoremove option can also damage
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
If you install packages on your system which don't belong, apt is not going to be able to magically fix it.
@Pandya That should also not happen. If it does, you could and probably should document and try to understand why it happened.
Pandya
Pandya
But why apt removed lots of packages?
@FaheemMitha Yes, keeping watch on log files may work
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
Debian isn't perfect, and there are packaging bugs. If you find them, you should report them. Though there is no guarantee the maintainer will pay attention. Often they are not interested, and labor is in short supply.
@Pandya Apt tries to make your system consistent if it finds it inconsistent.
This process isn't guaranteed to leave the system in a usable state.
Pandya
Pandya
@Kusalananda how do I know what are various package managers like pip, cpan, cabal etc as you mentioned?
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
08:49
@Pandya How are things in your area? We're now the epicenter of the virus in India.
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
@Pandya What do you mean by what they are? Do you mean "how do I get to know that they exist?" or "how do get to know how they work?"
 
2 hours later…
terdon
terdon
10:48
> The test that you have is better written without the deprecated -a as.
@Kusalananda is -a deprecated? Where is that documented? I don't see it mentioned in help test on my bash.
Pandya
Pandya
@Kusalananda Which are those? Yes, how to know they exist and brief on their functionality. (Whatever and However it can be asked on site Haha)
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
@terdon POSIX (test): The XSI extensions specifying the -a and -o binary primaries and the '(' and ')' operators have been marked obsolescent. (Many expressions using them are ambiguously defined by the grammar depending on the specific expressions being evaluated.) Scripts using these expressions should be converted to the forms given below.
pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/test.html
("APPLICATION USAGE")
terdon
terdon
@Kusalananda Huh. Thanks!
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
Thanks for the edit, too!
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
11:36
I was nudged that direction in a comment by Stéphane; could have been an Answer, actually. Pretty sure they showed how it could be ambiguous.
Tim
Tim
11:56
Good morning
speaking of packages, I was wondering about a basic question in programming in general
0
Q: What does module reuse mean?

TimIn Essentials of Programming Languages by Friedman, if I am correct, Chapter 8 discusses something similar to the module system in Standard ML. 8 Modules In this chapter, we introduce modules as a way of satisfying these needs. We will need a good way to separate the system i...

programming-languages
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
10
A: What's the purpose of adding a prefix on both sides of a shell variable comparison to a string literal?

Stéphane ChazelasThe important thing to understand here is that in most shells¹, [ is just an ordinary command parsed by the shell like any other ordinary command. Then the shell invokes that [ (aka test) command with a list of arguments, and then it's up to [ to interpret them as a conditional expression. At t...

terdon
terdon
@Tim you're overthinking it. "Reuse" doesn't have any special meaning. It just means "use something again".
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
@JeffSchaller Thanks for that. Pathological examples are helpful to see.
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
@Kusalananda pathologically helpful, that's me!
terdon
terdon
A "module" is basically a program, and it is good practice to write code that can be used in more than one place, i.e. that can be reused.
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
12:03
@terdon A module is one way to refer to a bit of code that you intend to recycle. It's a sort of local version of a library, I guess.
Sort of "my library".
terdon
terdon
@FaheemMitha Yes, I know. In other words, it is a program.
One that is often called by other programs to do things, which is why you want modules to be reusable and not written so that they can only be used in one specific context.
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
@Kusalananda's user card has rounded up to 200k, so pre-emptive congratulations! Guessing you'll hit the mark very soon, given that you're at 199,793 now
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@terdon Depends what you consider to be a program.
A program is commonly considered to be something that you can run, with inputs and outputs, though I don't know what its technical definition is, if any.
A library is more a collection of stored "routines".
If anyone cares, India is taking a real beating with the virus. And things look likely to get worse. Much worse. And we're right in the center of it all.
Currently wishing I was somewhere else.
terdon
terdon
12:19
@FaheemMitha I'm trying to help Tim not get into semantics, let's not get into semantics.
Faheem Mitha
Faheem Mitha
@terdon Ok. Wasn't trying to cause confusion, just giving my perspective.
Wonderful, Maharashtra is calling out the CAPF.
I think that's the Indian equivalent of the National Guard.
Tim
Tim
If you read the first quote in my post on cs.SE
the first point is about decomposition and dependency
the second point is about namespace
the third point is about separation between interface and implementation
the fourth point is about "reuse"
I have been trying to match the points to some real word programming languages
till I am lost when reaching "reuse" again in Section 8.3
terdon
terdon
@Tim It just means "use again". It isn't a special term, no special meaning. It's the same word as in "reusable wipes" or anything else. Nothing special.
Tim
Tim
Section 8.3 raises a point to decouple dependency of a program on the modules which it uses
I guess it is the same purpose of dynamic loading in C?
I also guess that libraries in C satisfy all the points of modules?
In Java, "package" satisfies namespace and dynamic loading, but without interface?
terdon
terdon
None of this has anything to do with the meaning of the word "reuse" which simply means "use again".
Tim
Tim
12:30
In Python, "module" and "package" are the same as "package" in Java?
My purpose is to understand the different concepts beyond possible overloading of terminology
terdon
terdon
@Tim Then why is your question asking what the word "reuse" means?
Tim
Tim
can more gurus please help
terdon
terdon
Anyway, I'm not a programmer and don't know the first thing about Java, so I can't help with these other issues. All I can tell you is that "reuse" isn't jargon, it's just a normal word.
@Tim Maybe try in the chat room of the site where you asked the question where presumably more programmers hang out?
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
12:53

 Computer Science

General discussion for cs.stackexchange.com
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
13:44
@JeffSchaller Also it's my birthday!
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
@Kusalananda outstanding! the random numbers are really lining up for you today! Happy Birthday!
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
13:58
@JeffSchaller I just recently passed 10m "people reached", so random chance is randomly kinda aligned.
Jeff Schaller
Jeff Schaller
14:15
and 97% of your way to the Illuminator badge (lucky 13 to go!)
and in 2 days, you'll have been a member for 8 years, 8 months, and 8 days (crazy eights!)
Tim
Tim
happy bday!
terdon
terdon
14:43
Heh, I noticed @Kusalananda's 200k yesterday and got all excited before realizing it was just rounding up.
Happy birthday though!
 
1 hour later…
Isaac
Isaac
15:51
@Kusalananda Happy bday ! Any celebration planed for tonight?
 
2 hours later…
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
17:44
@Isaac Thanks! No, not really.
 
3 hours later…
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
20:26
@Isaac I spent most of the evening reading a study of the Beowulf epic, and some texts about a fight between the Norwegians and Swedes on the ice of lake Vänern (not far from where I live) in the 6th century. I now also appear to have more cat hair in my beard than actual beard. I'm not aware of how that happened.
Isaac
Isaac
20:55
@Kusalananda @Kusalananda Yes, Beowulf, the English speaking christians living in Denmark, yes, no kidding. If that is a gift to yourself, go for it !!! Hmmm, but I do not know anything about lake Vänerm (nice, AltGr q gives ä). I'll search a bit on Google. I'll assume that your cat is Yellowish or White, otherwise the cat hair would be a lot more visible in your bear :-) .... In any case, yes, have a pleasant birthday night with a good book and your cat on the lap.
Andras Deak
Andras Deak
@Kusalananda happy birthday! Did you get a custom avatar as a present? ;)
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
21:12
@Isaac That whole Beowulf thing was a distraction from one of the current questions on the main site...
Cat is brownish. I just don't look at my own face very often.
Isaac
Isaac
:54369632 Interesting, lake Vänern is 145 Km long (largest lake in Sweden and the largest lake in the European Union), not a small lake !!. Interesting, the lake battle even has a Wikipedia page:
Battle on the Ice of Lake Vänern
The Battle on the Ice of Lake Vänern was a 6th-century battle recorded in the Norse sagas and referred to in the Old English epic Beowulf. It has been dated to c. 530 CE. == The epic Beowulf == Beowulf is an epic poem that refers to the conflict, but not to a battle on Lake Vänern. In Beowulf, the Swedish king Ohthere (Ottar Vendelkråka, who is often called the first historical king of Sweden) had died and his brother Onela (Áli) had usurped the Swedish throne. Ottar's sons Eanmund and Eadgils (Adils) had to flee to Geatland and seek refuge with the Geatish king Heardred. This induced Onela to...
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
That's the one.
Isaac
Isaac
Yep, where Eadgils slew Onela and became the king of Sweden. Am I using the correct names in swedish? Or do you speak Norwegian?
Michael Homer
Michael Homer
@terdon This is, of course as ever, both false and true simultaneously
@Tim §8.3 is talking about dependency injection, in ML style by invoking the module with arguments so that you can instantiate the same module with different dependencies at different times
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
21:31
@Isaac I would use the Swedish names, but this is so long ago that I don't even remember having come across it history lessons at school. For school kids, Swedish history more or less starts with Gustav Vasa, or possibly Olof Skötkonung (the first Christian king of the country).
Before then, it wasn't really Sweden (as in unified).
Isaac
Isaac
@Kusalananda Thanks for your time, I don't mean to entertain (use your time, if that is the right word) any longer (unless you want to talk), please have a good night.
Kusalananda
Kusalananda
@Isaac Good night to you too.

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