/dev/chat

Wildcard

00:00

@Tim watch about the first two minutes of this video and tell me what you think: youtu.be/v7gKGq_MYpU?t=3

@Tim I understand what you're saying but you're generalizing.

(over-generalizing)

Tim

I like Federal job guarantee better, although I understand UBI has its own merit

If automation develops to such a degree that many people lose their jobs, then the coorporations that benefit from automation should pay tax to fund UBI

Anyway, that is not my business. I am just recently addicted to your country's politics

Wildcard

@Tim did you watch the first two minutes?

Tim

No

Wildcard

I ask because the first two minutes are not really about UBI.

They are possibly the most incisive summary of the debate about wealth inequality that I've seen.

Tim

Never have I daemonize the rich

My point is that the wealth inequality has already become unreasonable

In a coorporation, there is no cap on the salary of CEO, C...O

Wildcard

00:10

@Tim who should be in charge of defining such a cap?

And who should enforce it?

@Jesse_b by the way, xkcd.com/1925 is enjoyable reading :)

Tim

I have not analyzed these figures. But I know in some countries where there is cap, what happens in US is unimaginable

Nice talking to you. I better not to pretend that I have more leisure time.

Wildcard

@Tim that doesn't answer the question. How about a cap on how much money the government is allowed to collect from its populace? How about a cap on how many people can have kids in a given year? How about a cap on how many strangers you're allowed to make friends with? It's one thing to say "there should be a cap" and it's another thing to look at how such a cap would be implemented, who would enforce it and how, what incentives the cap would create, and what the actual effects would be.

@Tim sure, I have to run now anyway.

:)

Tim

work.chron.com/ceo-compensation-vs-world-15509.html

statista.com/statistics/424159/…

Wealth inequalities are not just within coorporations.

But I don't want to pretend that I know better than you any more

Wildcard

@Tim okay. Just don't paint things with a broad brush, that's all. There are rich people who unjustly accumulated their wealth. And there are rich people who got rich because they drastically improved the quality of life of millions of people. There are poor people who are the victims of chance. And there are also poor people who are simply unwilling to make any effort to change their situation.

Tim

00:33

No poor people really likes to stay where they are. They have lost chances from the beginning when they go to school and when they look for jobs and when they are discriminated. They are stuck where they are, and have lost hope

Some billionaire that are philanthropist and humanitarian are not actually as good faithed as you think.

They are better than those who aren't, but still not doing enough compared to how they acquired their wealth
Bill Gates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e8Yu5xJpOY

Michael Bloomberg youtube.com/watch?v=RpFxJviD7rs&t=47s

When the progressives challenge their wealth, they are scared

Wildcard

@Tim you're missing the point. I'm telling you that there is a full spectrum of possibilities, and there are real people at many points on that spectrum. You respond that some people are not so humanitarian as they appear. The point is that some are, and some are more humanitarian than they appear, and you need to recognize the variety that exists.

Tim

If you think about how they acquired their wealth in the first place, you will understand what I am saying

Wildcard

@Tim again, you are painting with a broad brush. You are describing some people, not all. The statement "NO poor person likes to stay where they are" is false.

@Tim I do understand what you are saying. It is too broad a generality. How "they" acquired their wealth also varies widely.

Tim

Consider when you are stuck in a place that you can't change

Wildcard

@Tim Okay, I'm considering it. I imagine you're considering what your response would be to that situation. So my question to you is—do you think that EVERY person would have a response to that situation identical to yours?

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, @Tim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Tim

00:45

I feel that you can't relate to some people that are very different from you

just "some"

Wildcard

@Tim indeed I can. It is precisely my point, that you are making claims about broad groups of people, that do not accurately characterize ALL of the people in the groups you are talking about.

@Tim or was that the general "you"?

Tim

Indeed I have to go now. Nice talking with you

cas

03:12

@Wildcard right, desire for profit is the only possible incentive. I bet that explains why telcos are so efficient and innovative and have such amazingly good customer service.

@Wildcard also, posting a Lobster-man video would completely undermine the credibility of your Libertarian Theology - if it had any to begin with. (US Style) Libertarianism is sound-bite propaganda that works on Americans to get them to support bullshit ideas that harm them directly, and benefit only the rich and powerful (like "tax is theft", "regulations are bad", "the government is evil").

Faheem Mitha

06:43

@cas And also why free software projects don't exist. Since there is typically no financial incentive.

Faheem Mitha

06:57

Chapel Hill Transit (buses) became free many years ago.

Probably not a common move in the US.

The Wikipedia page doesn't cover the history, though.

Wildcard

07:19

@cas I actually have no idea what you're talking about here, but I don't particularly want to argue with a chip on anyone's shoulder. So skip it.

In other (and less contentious) news, I don't know how I got so backlogged on reading new xkcd strips. :)

This one is perfect for this chatroom. I'm trying to even imagine what sequence of events could possibly result in this: xkcd.com/1912

Faheem Mitha

07:32

@Wildcard He's responding to your earlier comment:

8 hours ago, by Wildcard

Governments do not have any incentive to keep the quality high. Once the taxpayers are locked into funding something, there is no actual penalty for doing a bad job at providing it.

That comment, if literally and generally interpreted, is an argument for having no govt managed anything.

Govt managed things can be bad, sure. India is a good case in mind. The govt is a nightmare. But I hope this isn't universally true.

@Wildcard Corrupted boot sector perhaps? Perhaps the thermometer doesn't have UEFI.

@Wildcard The general issue is that having stuff run by govts can be problematic. Having stuff run by private profit driven entities can be as or more problematic.

But I'm sure you're already aware of that.

In India, one is driven to deal with corporations because the govt is so terrible. For example, with internet. I still like the idea of municipal broadband. And similar comments apply to banks.

I used to use MTNL for awhile. It's govt owned, and has the worst customer service imaginable. It's also only alive because it's propped up by the central govt, which spends alarming amounts of money on it. Left to itself, it would have become bankrupt several times over. But, again, I still think municipal broadband is a good idea.

Wildcard

08:20

@FaheemMitha it was a continuation of my previous two comments, which might have been obvious from context but clearly wasn't.

@FaheemMitha that's true, but when you are free to go to a different such entity, it mitigates the problem to some degree. For some industries that is prohibitively impractical, but transportation is not one of them.

@FaheemMitha but why is there a second copy of the monthly energy report word doc on there in the first place? :)

@FaheemMitha there are banks in the US with horrendous customer service as it is. But you can switch to other banks, generally speaking. Some banks have excellent service.

@FaheemMitha yep, that's the sort of concern I have when I hear people proposing, "Let's just have the government run our healthcare, since they're doing such a great job of managing everything else they're in charge of." Not. And there is one sector where they DO manage the healthcare, which is for veterans, and they do an absolutely terrible job of it.

cas

@Wildcard just because YOUR government has been completely taken over by corporate governments doesn't mean that all governments are, or that it incompetence and malice are inherent to government-run services. In parts of the world where the govt hasn't yet been completely hijacked by corporations, govt-run services are efficient, and effective. corruption and lobbying are whittling away at that, but the fight is far from over.

the fight may as well be over in the US because you've all been brain-washed by corporate interests that the government is your enemy. it's not. corporations (and the 0.001% who own them) are the enemy - and by refusing to take back control of your government, refusing to even believe that government CAN be a weapon on your side, you're giving up. You are ceding the power of government to corporate control who now have two huge sticks to beat you down with.

Michael Homer

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/new

cas

governments, of course, aren't all good. or all bad. they can be a force for good or a force for evil. it depends on whose interests they serve. they can serve the interests of the people. or they can serve the interests of malevolent artificial entities that run on the substrate of the legal system rather than silicon....and not only run on it, they adapt and modify their substrate to suit themselves.

oops. I wrote "corporate governments" above in the first sentence. I meant "corporate interests". although, technically, both phrases are accurate when talking about the US.

Faheem Mitha

09:08

@Wildcard I don't actually disagree with what you are saying, per se. But such arguments can be interpreted broadly as - govts suck - let's hand it over to private entities. Language can be tricky.

@Wildcard Hmm. Still probably better than having private insurance companies grow fat at the expense of the taxpayer. And it's also true (I think) that US health care is among the most expensive in the world. Aren't there mechanisms for holding govts accountable? And not just voting.

Yes, I've heard horror stories about the VA too.

I'm not familiar with how the US system works, but if the govt messes up health care management, isn't there a finer grained way for making them accountable for performance other than (say) a presidential election every 4 years?

@cas I generally agree with what you say, but isn't the AU govt pretty much run by corporations too?

Kusalananda

10:55

@MichaelHomer You're being too subtle 🙂

Jesse_b

11:58

leeeeeeeroy jeeeeenkins

overexchange

14:16

@JeffSchaller answer says.. mix of Debian and Ubuntu.. is Debian different from Ubuntu?

Jesse_b

@overexchange Ubuntu is based on debian but debian is not based on ubuntu

Jeff Schaller

@overexchange I lost the context for this (which answer?), but Jesse_b has it. Short answer: "yes", although hearing that an answer says that you have a mix of Debian and Ubuntu is ... not good, in my opinion.

overexchange

14:43

@JeffSchaller this is the context

1

A: Unmet dependencies in base packages - jenkins dockerfile

From the provided output, your specific issue is that the packages you want to install depend on libsystemd-journal0, and you have no configured repositories that provide that package. It seems you have a mix of Debian and Ubuntu repositories inside that container and that is likely the source o...

overexchange

14:57

Is yum package manager for redhat preferred over apt for Ubuntu?

Because in production many companies are preferring redhat 7.1 over Ubuntu bionic...

What can be the issues in package management for Ubuntu running in production?

Jesse_b

@overexchange: I'm not sure any of those questions are quantifiable

I do believe it's true that more companies use RHEL over Ubuntu but their package managers probably have little to do with it. RHEL has better support

even saying it has better support is likely subjective. Sort of a betamax vs VHS question

overexchange

Using RHEL needs license unlike Ubuntu.. for usage in production. Isn't it?

Jesse_b

@overexchange sort of

overexchange

33

A: Main difference between Ubuntu and Redhat?

After many years using both, I can say that the real differences are: H/W vendor support for various server hardware subsystems like: latest FiberChannel drivers iSCSI offloading support 10Gbps Ethernet online firmware (BIOS, NMI) updaters SCSI storage accelerators Software SCSI drivers (lik...

Preferring redhat... Based on the experience

Jesse_b

Every company I've worked for used rhel/centos

And every linux appliance I've ever heard of is based on rhel/centos

overexchange

15:08

11

A: Main difference between Ubuntu and Redhat?

Main Difference is Ubuntu is based on Debian system. It uses .deb packages. While redhat uses it own package system .rpm (red hat package manager ). Redhat is free but it is charged for support (updates), when Ubuntu is totally free with support for desktop users only professional support is cha...

Free license but support is chargeable

For both Ubuntu and redhat server edition

Jesse_b

Well no, RHEL is not free except for personal use by developers

However centos is basically the same thing and is free

overexchange

Centos use yum PKG mgr?

Jesse_b

also important to note that redhat =/= RHEL although that's sort of a nitpick because everyone knows what you mean

@overexchange yes

overexchange

Ok

terdon

15:36

@Jesse_b We use Ubuntu, actually. But I think only because our main sysadmin knows the Debian world (I don't think he's even ever strayed away from Ubuntu), so it was far more painless for him to just use Ubuntu server installs.

Jesse_b

@terdon Yeah I know it's used and apparently it is pretty widely used for web hosting as well but I just have never personally had experience with it being used at the enterprise level

terdon

I was quite surprised when I joined, I was expecting a Debian or a RH/CentOS or something. However, after almost 5 years or so, I have to say that the experience of running Ubuntu Server LTS versions as production machines has been quite pleasant.

@Jesse_b Yes, absolutely. This is the only time I've seen it used in a professional setting.

Jesse_b

@terdon It does seem like the people using ubuntu are more passionate about it than RHEL users

@terdon: While you're here, what would be the process for having the link between OSX and macos removed or at least reversed?

The tags*

macos is the current OS, OSX refers to an old version

Faheem Mitha

I just want to let people here know that strips other than xkcd do exist.

And yes, I'm guilty too.

terdon

@Jesse_b best open a meta post

Jesse_b

15:50

@terdon Thanks, I'll do that later. I've always wanted a reason to post on meta :p

My back has been hurting for a week straight now and I haven't been able to work out properly, I'm literally losing my mind

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller So, using distributed version control yet?

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha nope

I had to look up what that even is :p

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b Sorry, I meant to address that to Jeff. I guess I really am half asleep.

@Jesse_b But surely you are using Git? I thought you were.

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha yeah

git via github

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b That's what I thought. Why did you say no?

Jesse_b

15:59

> A distributed version control system (DVCS) is a type of version control where the complete codebase — including its full version history — is mirrored on every developer's computer. Changes to files are tracked between computers.

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b Yes, I know what it is.

Jesse_b

I'm not intimately familiar with github but that doesn't sound like it

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b Git is a distributed version control system. GitHub is a web site.

Jesse_b

fair enough, I never claimed to be smart :p

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b ?

@Jesse_b You should do yoga.

Jesse_b

16:08

@FaheemMitha I'm doing squats because if my back wants to be a little baby I'll give it something to cry about

front squats until I can't front squat anymore and then back squats

Faheem Mitha

16:32

@Jesse_b That doesn't sound sensible to me.

Seriously, I'd check out a yoga class. Possible pilates.

A qualified yoga instructor should be able to give you advice about what specialised work you should do.

One-on-one yoga instruction is probably very expensive in the US, so I'm not suggesting that.

A common cause of back problems is simply back muscle weakness.

Because those muscles often don't get exercised properly. Also, muscles need to be stretched, at least occasionally.

Sitting in chairs a lot doesn't help.

Oh, and incidentally, I used to regularly get back muscle pulls (or something like that), before I did yoga. It hasn't happened since I've been doing yoga regularly. Though I'm not claiming my fitness regimen is adequate or anything.

Very painful. Used to have hobble around for several days before it got better.

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha facebook.com/…

I can assure you weakness is not the problem :p

I actually think I have a fairly common problem for people my size which is that the back muscles get so big they start to separate from the rib cage and it hurts for a few weeks while it heals

I'm not against yoga though

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b Weakness comes in different forms. Inflexibility, for example. I was using the term loosely.

Jesse_b

16:47

I'm way more flexible than I have any business being

Faheem Mitha

And weight lifting isn't actually particularly good for the health, in my opinion.

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha Well most doctors would disagree =)

Faheem Mitha

It's also quite likely to cause injury. At least, beyond moderate levels of weight.

Jesse_b

Sure anything outside of moderation isn't good

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b I don't think consulting doctors for health advice is particularly useful.

Jesse_b

16:48

I don't completely disagree but I would consult them before a non-doctor

Faheem Mitha

One reason I prefer yoga is that it doesn't (traditionally,at least), use resistance weights. You just use the weight of your body.

And if you can't cope with that, you're probably overweight.

@Jesse_b It's quite rare for a doctor to have any interest in their patients health, in general.

Most of the time, they're blatantly uninterested.

Jesse_b

Yoga is certainly good for people and people with injuries, but so is virtually any form of weight training

and body weight training is still weight training

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b The thing is that it doesn't typically stay moderate.

@Jesse_b I wasn't talking about injuries. I was talking about strengthening weak muscles, and increasing flexibility.

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha Debatable, the thing is your body becomes stronger, even your bones and ligaments. So as your progress you can still increase weight in moderation even though the weight you lift would not be moderate for someone without as much training

Faheem Mitha

If you have an injury, you should be careful.

@Jesse_b Shrug. I think it's still relatively likely to cause injury. For example, if a weight falls on your chest, it doesn't make any difference how much training you've had.

To be clear, I've done moderate weight training myself. And I don't think it's a bad thing per se. Just people get over-enthusiastic. Particularly men.

One witnesses scary sights in gyms.

I'm too lazy to get that worked up myself.

Jesse_b

16:54

@FaheemMitha I don't bench press with suicide grip. I also don't really bench press heavy or often (with a barbell) because of a shoulder injury

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b Suicide grip?

Jesse_b

Without wrapping your thumbs around the bar, every single time I've seen someone drop a weight on their chest it was because they use a suicide grip

I've also never seen anyone injured from it believe it or not. There was a guy that dropped 600 lbs on his chest/neck and walked away from it

Faheem Mitha

BTW, is that you in the photo?

Jesse_b

it is

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b I see.

@Jesse_b Ok, I thought so. Just checking.

@Jesse_b That's surprising.

Jesse_b

16:57

There are certainly a log of ego lifters that will lift way too much weight because of their ego but I don't suffer from that much (although I certainly have been guilty of it)

I also have my own personal gym in my basement so there isn't really anyone to show off to

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b Ok.

Jesse_b

s/log/lot/

Faheem Mitha

Ideally one would do moderate strength training, with resistance weights or otherwise, in combination with flexibility training. But I suspect that's relatively rare.

Most people do one or the other.

Personally I find gyms excruciatingly boring. But that's my problem.

Jesse_b

I do a lot of mobility work. My physical therapist was amazed at the range of motion I have in my shoulders, he said it's even better than most people who have never had a surgery but I have had two

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b You had shoulder surgery? Sorry to hear that. What happened?

Jesse_b

16:59

I think most people do but it really is incredibly addicting once you get into it for a little bit. I have physical withdraws from not exercising

@FaheemMitha webmd.com/pain-management/labrum-slap-tear

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b I did it for years relatively seriously. I never felt addicted to it.

And of course, one needs to exercise. But there are different ways of exercising.

(I did get noticeably larger, though.)

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha You can get bigger than most people realize just from body weight exercises too

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b body weight exercises too?

You mean, using your own body's weight?

Jesse_b

Push ups, pull ups, and sprint runs will put a significant amount of muscle on basically every major muscle group in your body

Well front squats seemed to help but back squats are no good

overexchange

17:40

Networking guys... please provide your inputs... on need of using multi host networking in this scenario

0

Q: Do I need to create multi host network in docker?

For the below docker-compose building docker file dynamically: version: '2' volumes: jenkins_home: external: true services: jenkins: build: context: . args: DOCKER_GID: ${DOCKER_GID} DOCKER_ENGINE: ${DOCKER_ENGINE} DOCKER_COMPOSE: ${DOCKER_COMPOS...

Faheem Mitha

18:24

This probably isn't quite the right place to ask this, but does anyone have an opinion on Edit with Emacs vs Atomic Chrome?

Probably the Emacs SE site would be more on topic.

Jesse_b

@FaheemMitha I would imagine people on the emacs site would recommend emacs over other things, I'd never heard of atomic chrome before just now but it looks cool

@FaheemMitha: Are you proficient with emacs?

Faheem Mitha

@Jesse_b They're both interfaces between Emacs and a web browser.

@Jesse_b Not really. But I use it. Why?

Jesse_b

In my experience it has a steep learning curve, if you aren't already proficient in it, it would seem better to use the easier atom tool

overexchange

@FaheemMitha using vim and emacs is waste of time...

You can just show that... You invested lot of time understand meta programming to customise emacs

Vcode is good and sufficient

Jesse_b

ed is the only accepted editor

3

Jeff Schaller

18:52

I entered the room at the right time! :)

@FaheemMitha sorry to say, I am not, although your words echoed in my head last night as I considered a semi-drastic change to the LaTeX file...

Faheem Mitha

19:11

@JeffSchaller Well, starting is easy. I recommend Mercurial.

It takes about 5 minutes to learn the basics. Less, if you're a fast learner.

Though of course Git is the flavour du jour.

And in local news, the Supreme Court announce a disastrous verdict about the Babri Masjid case. Though I doubt anyone here is familiar with that.

overexchange

19:49

How to recognise, if any docker hub repo is official?

For example: hub.docker.com/r/appcontainers/jenkins

Jesse_b

@overexchange What's your definition of official?

Well disregard that

@overexchange If it was "official" it would have the "Official Image" tag, for example: hub.docker.com/_/couchbase

There is also a "docker certified" tag to denote an verified publisher

Faheem Mitha

20:46

Well, just finished a session with Atomic Chrome.

It works. Though it's weird to edit an Emacs buffer that can't be saved.

overexchange

22:01

@Jesse_b Ya.. the official image tag is not assigned

am trying to make centos setup for jenkins master/slave

within docker

Kusalananda

22:40

@JeffSchaller I once saw a book called something like "Mastering Ed", written by a guy called Ed something (no joke!). I can't seem to find it on the interwebs easily, do you have a link or memory of it?

Jesse_b

Only thing I can find is "Ed Mastery" but not written by an Ed

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b Ah, no that's it! I was wrong about the Ed guy apparently. Hmm... whereever did I get that from then?

Jesse_b

@Kusalananda Would be a lot cooler if his name was ed

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b That's true. I'm fairly certain there was an ed thing by a guy called Ed. But this is the book I was looking for. Much thanks!

Jesse_b

no worries, always up for a challenge to improve my google-fu

overexchange

22:50

I have RHEL 8 instance on AWS

Can I install docker enterprise on this RHEL instance?

docs.docker.com/install/linux/docker-ee/rhel

from license aspect of docker

Kusalananda

@overexchange Some of these questions of yours should be on the main site, where people may actually answer them properly, not in chat where you're at the mercy of whoever happens to be here.

Jesse_b

That hyper terminal question is making me nostalgic about hyper terminal now

Kusalananda

Never used it

Hyper- anything makes me shiver.

Jesse_b

it was really good for working with network devices because you could do character and line delays, without that if you try to paste a large amount of information in it would often get corrupted before it goes through

The only other terminal emulators I've found with the same features (for windows anyway) are paid software

Kusalananda

Remembering "HyperCard" for Mac, and the dreaded HyperSpec of Common Lisp.

Jeff Schaller

23:03

@Kusalananda Huzzah to Jesse_b's google-fu :)

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b You probably have to have a some sort of "paste buffer" and the feed the buffered data at the right speed, or something.

@JeffSchaller Yay for Jesse's Google-fu!

The book is in the cart.

Jesse_b

@Kusalananda Yeah that is pretty much it. It probably isn't the best way to do it but in my earlier days managing network devices the way we backed up switch and router configs was just saving the show running-config to a text file and if you needed to revert to it you just ctrl+c and ctrl+v it back into the device

the worst was the DOD maintained (and probably still does) this insane ACL that they would distribute on a CDROM and you would have to copy and paste that into all edge routers

Thing was easily 140k+ lines, pretty much all were blocking individual IPs instead of ranges

We actually had to upgrade the RAM in our routers in order to support it

Jeff Schaller

@wildcard I feel like I've made a lot of progress on the checklist, so I'm ready for a reality smack-down! There's still some work to do, but if you'd like to take a look and let me know if I've really gone off the rails somewhere, I'd appreciate it. Take a look at top of the Google Doc we shared for a link to a PDF and a question.

(the latex code is pasted at the bottom of the doc, in case you want to repro locally)

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