/dev/chat

cas

00:20

@StephenKitt i used to file bugs against packages for that, long ago but I gave up. lots of packages have descs like "dev package for libfoo", "shared lib package for libfoo", "binaries package for foo", and i'd think "that's obvious, but WTF is foo and why might i want to install it? those descriptions are nothing more than a re-statement of the package names"

@FaheemMitha i submitted a bug report for pdsh in September with the new home page for pdsh (which is little more than a link to the github page now...the old LLNL page used to have docs and usage examples as well as the source - I got tired of not being able to link to it when I posted an answer using pdsh, so I hunted for the new homepage). The package hasn't been updated yet.

Héctor Álvarez

08:12

Hi, I'm having an issue connecting to repositories

I was wondering if this is the right place to ask, so feel free to disregard if this it's not appropriate

0

Q: Ubuntu 18.04: Clearfile isn't valid, got 'NOSPLIT'

I'm facing an issue here where I can't use apt-get, any arguments will fail such as apt-get install subversion or apt-get update. I understand this problem may arise from the proxy configuration. However I believe I've set it up properly from the settings window and other internet functionalit...

Stephen Kitt

08:45

@Tim I agree with Wildcard’s characterisation. There are two other big considerations in my mind: some languages don’t prescribe any way of handling errors, and others allow multiple different approaches.

Thus in C for example there are patterns of error transmission (not handling), as discussed earlier in the chat; in some cases the way to figure out if an error occurred is to set errno to 0 and check its value afterwards, because some functions have no way of indicating that an error occurred.

In Java, you get exceptions, checked and unchecked. What happens in practice is that most projects end up handling checked exceptions (which the compiler forces you to deal with) by re-throwing them wrapped in unchecked exceptions, so you either track everything manually or you ignore most errors.

What’s nice about Go is that error handling is explicit and expected, i.e. it’s defined technically and also part of the idiom, or even philosophy of the language. That results in well-designed Go-idiomatic libraries (or rather, frameworks) taking the existence of errors into account. For example, the Kubernetes controller paradigm defines how errors should be handled, which means developers know what to do.

Handling errors is really the same as backup though: backup is not much use if you don’t check restores, and error-handling isn’t much use if you don’t know what to do with the errors. The best Java project error-handling I know is in a set of projects which are explicitly designed to feed into an Elasticsearch infrastructure which is connected to the monitoring system (common enough) but also the issue tracker.

That means that errors which appear in the logs can easily be turned into bug reports, so they are, and problems are fixed.

That also goes with a development culture in the company where logging useful errors is the norm, and you’re in more trouble if you omitted logs which would have helped in a production event, than if you log too much — thanks to the good logging infrastructure which means that human involvement is minimised and logs are actually usable.

Michael Homer

The Error monad is the thing that does both of those things, but with all the usual issues that come up from wrapping everything in a monad

Stephen Kitt

09:01

@MichaelHomer right, and Rust’s happy path is a nice implementation of that: patshaughnessy.net/2019/10/3/…

And that too has to be baked into the language from the beginning, otherwise you end up with things like Java’s streams and futures which will get you some of the way and then leave you high and dry, so you write a mixture of nice functional-style code and then a bunch of explicit error-handling (or just sweep it under the rug).

Faheem Mitha

10:06

@cas So what is pdsh's home page? It isn't obvious. Is it just GitHub?

cas

10:22

@FaheemMitha software.llnl.gov/repo/#/chaos/pdsh - but that's not much more than a link to the github repo at github.com/chaos/pdsh

Faheem Mitha

11:02

@cas Yes, that's a pretty basic web page.

overexchange

Am stuck in resolving key server access issue

0

Q: Key server access issue - public key

Below is the docker file: FROM jenkins:2.60.3 ENV DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive USER root ARG DOCKER_GID=497 RUN groupadd -g ${DOCKER_GID:-497} docker ARG DOCKER_ENGINE=1.10.2 ARG DOCKER_COMPOSE=1.6.2 RUN apt-get update -y && \ apt-get install apt-transport-https curl python-dev pytho...

apt gnupg

Looks like... I have this issue from wan network that am sitting in Canada region

Kusalananda

13:48

@HéctorÁlvarez Does the AskUbuntu site have a chat like this? Then that would be more apropriate for bringing attention to AskUbuntu questions.

Jeff Schaller

14:33

@Kusalananda chat.stackexchange.com/… suggests chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/201/ask-ubuntu-general-room -- "Normally: General discussion around Ask Ubuntu, Ubuntu & official Ubuntu derivatives"

2

Kusalananda

14:48

@JeffSchaller Good. I've never used AskUbuntu nor their chat, so I don't know the culture around there, but that would probably be the correct place for bringing attention to unloved AU questions (their Meta site could possibly also be useful).

Faheem Mitha

@Kusalananda I think all SE sites have a general chat. Though sometimes they are ghost towns.

Jeff Schaller

I also have not used it; just thought I'd push a few breadcrumbs forward

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Breadcrumbs?

So, how goes the TeXcitement?

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha reference to Hansel and Gretel where one of the kids left breadcrumbs as a trail to find their way back

@FaheemMitha nothing new since the other day's head-banging failures; went to bed early last night, so spent no time on it

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller Familiar with the idiom. Didn't quite see how it fit the context. Never mind.

Jeff Schaller

14:57

@FaheemMitha probably not the best choice of words on my part, but I'm distracted; sorry!

Faheem Mitha

@JeffSchaller I take it you don't actually use TeX for anything? Like writing letters or recipes, or making posters?

TeX does a mean poster. It makes all the other posters envious.

You can do all sorts of funky typesetting. Like arranging words in a spiral. Hard to read. But it looks cool.

Jeff Schaller

@FaheemMitha no

Faheem Mitha

That's what I thought. Of course, it's never too late to start. You could decorate your recipes with tiny drawings, drawn by TikZ.

Jeff Schaller

I used LaTeX about 20 years ago, but not since then; so it's familiar, but I'm definitely not up-to-date or expert with it

Faheem Mitha

I wonder how hard it is to draw tiny pictures of hams with TikZ.

Or hens, perhaps.

Faheem Mitha

15:37

Turns out there is a bunch of cooking packages. Not surprising, perhaps. Though perhaps it's surprising there are not more.

Jeff Schaller

17:05

when my brain was mean to my eyes: unix.stackexchange.com/questions/551063/…

overexchange

18:20

@JeffSchaller Firstly, I have no idea... the purpose of retrieving public key. Am novice in apt package management. I have no idea, why there are so many commands: apt-get, apt-update.... So, I don't understand your comment on fetching keys fromm key server

Jeff Schaller

@overexchange I could have been clearer in my comment, but I posted it as a suggestion to follow the Docker documentation for installation. It was only a comment, and may not be what you need to do.

overexchange

github.com/jolestar/kubernetes-complete-course/issues/2

Jeff Schaller

@overexchange that's exactly where I found the trail to the Docker documentation

overexchange

@JeffSchaller Lot of other stuff to learn on priority, so it would take time for me to learn about apt

Jeff Schaller

There are a lot of things to learn, indeed! Good luck!

overexchange

18:30

But am stuck here without proceeding further on this

I actually don't know, what the problem is... because I dont know the mechanics of apt package management

Jeff Schaller

well, two suggestions. First, notice that the error is from gpg and it says "no data" -- this isn't "package management" yet, just "apt-key" failing because of a gpg failure because of something else. If you suspect networking, then it'd be helpful in the question if you gave a quick overview of the network setup and whether other operations work or not. Are there firewalls between you and the keyservers? A proxy? -- all good information for the question

overexchange

Hold on...

It works.. if I run apt-key adv --keyserver hkp://p80.pool.sks-keyservers.net:80 --recv-keys 58118E89F3A912897C070ADBF76221572C52609D on my ubuntu machine

$ apt-key adv --keyserver hkp://p80.pool.sks-keyservers.net:80 --recv-keys 58118E89F3A912897C070ADBF76221572C52609D
Executing: /tmp/apt-key-gpghome.lHZ4HKJQps/gpg.1.sh --keyserver hkp://p80.pool.sks-keyservers.net:80 --recv-keys 58118E89F3A912897C070ADBF76221572C52609D
gpg: key F76221572C52609D: 7 signatures not checked due to missing keys
gpg: key F76221572C52609D: public key "Docker Release Tool (releasedocker) <[email protected]>" imported
gpg: Total number processed: 1
gpg:               imported: 1

so this is not working when I run amidst building image

https://forums.docker.com/t/gpg-key-for-docker-repo-fail-to-fetch-from-key-server/24253/2 says: "Problem was solved via: Changing the network settings inside VirtualBox from: NAT to Bridged adapter!

It’s definitely a problem with the network configuration."

Jeff Schaller

since you're creating a docker container, then maybe the problem is with your docker networking? Also good to add the above and the docker n/w info to your Q

overexchange

what commands like? ip <options>

Jeff Schaller

I am not going to be able to solve your problem or answer your question; I'm trying to help you write an Answerable question

overexchange

18:44

@JeffSchaller it worked after I deleted all containers in Exited state

Jeff Schaller

@overexchange hurray! I'd suggest you either self-answer or delete the question, so that no one wastes their time trying to answer it.

overexchange

As am not good technically in this area... I would better delete the question

@JeffSchaller am I suppose to raise query in U&L for below issue:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 docker-engine : Depends: libsystemd-journal0 (>= 201) but it is not installable
                 Recommends: aufs-tools but it is not going to be installed
                 Recommends: cgroupfs-mount but it is not going to be installed or
                             cgroup-lite but it is not installable
                 Recommends: apparmor but it is not going to be installed
                 Recommends: yubico-piv-tool (>= 1.1.0~) but it is not going to be installed

Jeff Schaller

@overexchange certainly it'd be on-topic, but I'd strongly recommend you explain your environment -- including OS version and whether (as I suspect) this is a Docker setup; if so, then the dockerfile

overexchange

it is a dockerfile

Jeff Schaller

simply searching for one of those messages leads me to github.com/moby/moby/issues/20698 which has several suggestions, so your question could also include any relevant information along those lines

funnily enough, another result is from Ask Ubuntu, whose accepted answer is a link-only answer pointing to a Digial Ocean page :(

There's also a reasonable SO question

the fact that so many of these posts are years old concerns me; back to that comment about creating brand-new containers with EOL software

Faheem Mitha

19:06

Nice article about Rees-Mogg and Brexit - bylinetimes.com/2019/11/07/…

Probably not written by a British person.

I'm not familiar with this periodical. I just came across in during a random search.

overexchange

Is jenkins 2.60.3 using ubuntu trusty?

Jeff Schaller

@overexchange your dockerfile is!

overexchange

apt-get install docker-engine=${DOCKER_ENGINE:-1.10.2}-0~trusty -y

deb https://apt.dockerproject.org/repo ubuntu-trusty main

Jeff Schaller

I'm not an expert here, but when I follow my nose in Docker land from "FROM jenkins:2.60.3", I go through openjdk:8-jdk-stretch eventually to "debian:stretch" -- not at an Ubuntu base. But again, maybe I've misstepped somewhere.

overexchange

19:23

jenkins 2.190.3

overexchange

20:03

@JeffSchaller best practices for Jenkins setup.. do you have any reference?

Jeff Schaller

I don't, but I suppose you could do worse than wiki.jenkins.io/display/JENKINS/Jenkins+Best+Practices

overexchange

20:18

udemy.com/course/jenkins-from-zero-to-hero

This should be one stop shop for me

Jesse_b

20:42

Is there an SE site where questions about google sheets formulas would be on topic?

seems like superuser might accept it

Jeff Schaller

@Jesse_b if you're using a program, SO

superuser.com/tags/google-spreadsheets/info points off to webapps

Jesse_b

I think google sheets is only a web app?

Jeff Schaller

although webapps.stackexchange.com/tags/google-sheets/info says "Don't use it for the Google Drive Excel files editor"

the tag info confuses me as to whether it's on-topic or not

5,459 questions, up to an hour ago, so I'm guessing "ok"

Jesse_b

I think I just figured out what I needed on my own :D

Jeff Schaller

sometimes a little friction is good :)

Jesse_b

20:54

=CONCATENATE(TEXT(A20, "mm/dd/yy"), " 7:00")

Jesse_b

21:21

I think I broke regex

this pattern: ^.*[0-9]\s

Matches this text: word word_word 30

Jesse_b

21:32

I'm an idiot

Kusalananda

21:51

@Jesse_b ...

Jesse_b

wat it do

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b I asked my 35th question today. I should celebrate.

Jesse_b

I saw

To bad you went to the darkside and it was about zsh :p

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b Nah, zsh is cool.

The amount of really bad shell code I've seen for doing things that is really easily done in zsh...

Like finding the most recently modified files.

Jesse_b

The shell used doesn't excuse bad code

You should be able to write good code in any language, albeit it may be longer code

Kusalananda

21:56

People seems to usually solve that one by piping ls -t to head.

Oh, and I just got the "date badge". Does that mean I'm allowed out on dates?

Jesse_b

hah

Kusalananda

Hmm... There's only three of us though.

Jesse_b

Well those are exactly the three I expected to see

Kusalananda

I'm assuming they're all spoken for too. As am I when I think about it...

Jesse_b

I'm only 36 upvotes away from a date badge myself :p

Kusalananda

22:02

Which one are you working on now?

Jesse_b

How is your girlfriend doing @Kusalananda?

@Kusalananda I'm not specifically working on a badge but I won't feel whole until I get my gold bash badge, I'm at 834/1000 now

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b Oh, she's doing just fine. Going through a bit of a tired patch at the moment, but the other day she was cooking food and making a chocolate cake. And she's been rearranging things (not furniture) in the apartment. All from the comfort of her Permobil.

Michael Homer

@Jesse_b 166 away from accidentally hammering something closed

Kusalananda

@MichaelHomer :-) Happens to the best of us.

Jesse_b

@Kusalananda Nice. Cooking can be a very uplifting thing.

Kusalananda

22:06

The big downside with being a moderator is that I always close questions with my votes. It's no longer a community decision when I do it.

Jesse_b

I still don't like being able to edit without a vote.

Well most times it is convenient for small things like adding code blocks and such but it would be nice to have the option to send to vote

Wildcard

@Kusalananda I wonder if there is a feature request to allow moderators to cast non-binding votes?

Yep: meta.stackexchange.com/q/41062/307622

Michael Homer

Stéphane Chazelas

566 3 8

text-processing bash regular-expression sed shell io-redirection process

Jesse_b

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Wildcard

@MichaelHomer wow, so just make a second profile, build it up to enough rep to cast close votes (but not enough to get gold tag badges), and then you can cast your close votes instead of directly closing questions...seems kinda convoluted. :)

Kusalananda

22:11

@Wildcard Good points there. As a moderator, it's hard to participate in the community (voting).

Jesse_b

Yeah ever since @JeffSchaller became a mod the close vote queue has been going out of control

Kusalananda

@MichaelHomer Yeah, that's allowed as long as there is no sock-puppet voting happening between the accounts. I don't really like it though, it a bit schizophrenic, and somewhat confusing.

Jesse_b

@Kusalananda And are there any actual checks in place to ensure there is no voting?

Kusalananda

@Jesse_b It's easy enough for us to see.

Jesse_b

Well I don't think Stéphane would do it and those accounts are both named the same with the same picture to make it easy enough to see but other people with malicious intent would likely make it more difficult

I guess there really couldn't be anything in place to check though except for the extreme case where they upvote so many questions the system automatically overturns it. They could just use separate IP addresses, and upvote multiple users, including themselves, doing such conservatively enough to not get flagged

Kusalananda

22:21

@Jesse_b We can see voting patterns to some degree, but we can't see individual votes. Yes, there are automatic checks for catching some things. I'm not sure it's based on IP addresses.

You basically have to put more effort into cheating than to answer/ask questions to successfully fool the system.

I mean, it's easier to gain reps by not cheating.

Wildcard

22:34

If most people turn into muderers all of a sudden, we'll need to push out a firmware update or something.

Jesse_b

22:46

@Wildcard I don't agree with the concept of this though

Wildcard

@Jesse_b do tell.

Jesse_b

Some people are in fact murderers, and other people wouldn't consider themselves murderers but would easily hack into critical systems that could cause life or injury but would never directly harm a person. They get a detachment by so called "cyber" crime

If murderers learned that you can easily manipulate self driving cars to kill people they would likely do that

and therefore you can't just ignore bugs based on the fact that people are good

Kids drop bricks on the highway killing people all the time

Wildcard

@Jesse_b I honestly doubt it. Most murders are...there's some specific word for it which I forget, but basically most murders are committed as spur of the moment actions in anger.

Jesse_b

Most is not all though

Wildcard

@Jesse_b citation needed.

Jesse_b

22:49

Five teens charged for murder after throwing rocks

►

Wildcard

@Jesse_b "all the time"?

:)

Jesse_b

I've read at least 3 different cases of it

seems to happen about once a year

abc11.com/…

2017 Interstate 75 rock-throwing deaths

The 2017 Interstate 75 Rock-Throwing Incidents were a series of Rock and sandbag throwing incidents from two highway overpasses by teenagers along Interstate 75 caused two deaths in separate incidents in 2017: one in Michigan and one in Ohio. == Michigan rock throwing death == Kenneth White, 32, was killed on October 18, 2017 when a 6-pound (2.7 kg) rock thrown by a group of five teenage vandals among which was Mikadyn Payne, crashed through the windshield of the van he was riding in on Interstate 75 in Michigan, in Vienna Township, 80 miles (130 km) north of Detroit. Other cars were also damaged...

Wildcard

@Jesse_b it's true you shouldn't ignore bugs just because most people are good, especially when it comes to cybersecurity.

At the same time—programmers spend the vast majority of their time dealing in edge cases.

It is important to remember that most people ARE good.

Jesse_b

@Wildcard I'll rely on that for most things but not matters of life and death

Wildcard

@Jesse_b I feel we're actually in agreement, and we're talking past each other somehow.

Let me try to clarify my own position, because I think it's a little more nuanced than what you would get from that xkcd.

I think it is scary as hell to trust highway safety to programmers of self-driving cars.

Jesse_b

22:53

and also scary as hell to trust to most other drivers on the road :p

Wildcard

Basically, this: xkcd.com/2030

@Jesse_b to some degree, yes, but not NEARLY as scary.

Jesse_b

@Wildcard I honestly think it's even more scary

I get what you're saying I'm arguing against the comic more than you

I think it's unfair to say that painting a line in the road is the same as directly killing someone in a car crash though

Wildcard

When something goes wrong manually, people can mostly apply some intelligence to make things work anyway.

Jesse_b

It's much easier to go to an empty road in the middle of the night and completely detach yourself from what you're actually doing while you're simply painting a line in the road

Wildcard

When something goes wrong automatically, it goes wrong ALL OVER.

@Jesse_b that's true.

@Jesse_b yes, but my stance (not the comic's point) is that human drivers are MUCH more likely to drive safely in spite of misdrawn lines than self-driving cars are.

One time in Mexico City I looked out the window from the second floor and saw something wild. There was a relatively short one-way street that was about 8 lanes wide, between two two-way streets (i.e. between two "T" intersections).

Jesse_b

22:58

I think in order for self driving cars to at least be semi safe they have to use more than just radar. All cars will have to emit wireless signals that broadcast as much information as possible including rate and direction of travel, announcement that brakes will be applied, announcements that steering will be adjusted, alarms that there are obstacles ahead or behind, etc

Wildcard

The lane lines on the one way street were drawn in a zigzag. And nobody cared, and nobody crashed.

Jesse_b

and that sounds unamerican to me

Wildcard

@Jesse_b agreed completely about that.

@Jesse_b last I read, AI is incapable of crossing a busy four-way stop sign intersection.

Because nobody actually follows the right of way laws about that. There is communication and agreement between people, and we make it work. Practically using telepathy.

Jesse_b

@Wildcard I think eye contact has a lot to do with it. You can sort of tell someones intentions by looking at them in the eyes at the intersection

If the machines start reading my body language I'm moving to the desert

Wildcard

@Jesse_b bingo, exactly. Which requires human intelligence and judgment.

The zigzagging lane lines were a real eye opener for me. Very funny, but also interesting.

@Jesse_b I also think self-driving cars are solving the wrong problem.

Fundamentally, the "API" of our traffic laws was 100% designed around human understanding and judgment, and was never designed to be automatable.

Trying to set up a bunch of machine drivers that could still safely interact with human drivers, regardless of the ratio of human drivers to machine drivers, would require a very different setup.

Kusalananda

23:03

@Wildcard Well, part of what they do is safely stopping a car when the driver is, for whatever reason, unable to maintain in control of the car (heart-attack, falling asleep, etc.) This I think in a good thing.

Wildcard

I think the overuse of cars is a peculiar Americanism, that we have managed to export to other parts of the world.

@Kusalananda that sounds fine to me. I'm talking about the entirely unattended driving, which is a goal for some people.

Kusalananda

@Wildcard Yeah, that's convinience.

Wildcard

But I think that trains would be a LOT more scalable for broad-scale transportation of people.

Kusalananda

@Wildcard That and buses.

Wildcard

Way better than planes OR cars for city-to-city travel.

@Kusalananda to some degree, yes. Buses are fundamentally similar to cars, though. Trains really aren't—they have a track and they have to travel on the track.

Tim

23:08

In support of public transportation, I think it should further be free

Jesse_b

hah

Tim

municipal transportation at least

including subway

Jesse_b

hah

Who pays for it then?

Wildcard

@Jesse_b hear, hear.

Tim

the buses and trains can get support from playing ads

Wildcard

23:10

Actually, though, "free" local transportation in a downtown area CAN pay for itself in terms of increased foot traffic and therefore patronage of local stores.

@Tim bleah.

Tim

can get support from saving from costs and pollutions of private cars

Wildcard

@Tim that's an externality. It's a nice thing to avoid, but it doesn't fund anything.

Tim, have you ever read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"?

Jesse_b

@Tim not a half bad idea but I think at best they would only pay for less than 1/10th the cost

Tim

Read: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

Jesse_b

the outside of subway trains has little valuable real estate for advertisements because it is rarely ever seen and the internet has greatly reduced the cost of advertisements so I would imagine they could sell every square inch of the train and it would still be less than daily ticket revenue

So taxation doesn't make it free it just means you pay for it once a year, and everyone who doesn't use it also pays for it

Tim

23:13

In some cities that had free public transportation, it gets discontinued because of homeless people

Michael Homer

Driverless trains

Tim

But that is a different issue and shouldn't be the reason to cancel free public transportation

Jesse_b

There is a word for making people pay for services they don't want

That word is theft

taxation is theft

#1776

Tim

Recent "mobs" in NYC subway and in Chile subway were because subways are not free and people can't afford them and get arrested when jumping turnstile or asking for and receiving free swipe

Wildcard

@Tim why not?

Kusalananda

23:15

@Jesse_b Only if you count yourself as not belonging to the community towards which the taxes go.

Tim

@Wildcard homeless people should be given a place to live, that is unrelated to free public transportation

Jesse_b

@Kusalananda I don't count myself part of the public transport community.

Tim

A lot of protests are ongoing in NYC and Chile for free subway

Wildcard

@Tim that is a nice idealistic view, but not practical. If there are homeless people on your free public transportation, then it won't work as intended. Also see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport#Disadvantages

Tim

I saw it. There must be solutions without canceling free public transportation

Wildcard

23:17

@Tim that is unrelated to whether it's a good idea or not. It just means there are people willing to protest in favor of it politically.

Tim

I support free subway, nonpolitically

Wildcard

@Tim I don't disagree with you, but assertion of the existence of solutions does not solve the problem.

Tim

These two should be separate social issues

Not one's existence leads nonexistence of the other

Wildcard

@Tim why? The money, politically, all goes into the same pot. So spending taxpayer dollars on one thing is in direct competition with spending it on something else which is arguably more valuable.

The most direct solution to this is to stop spending taxpayer dollars, and let people direct their funds where they choose.

Tim

@Jesse_b this is republican talking point

Wildcard

23:20

@Tim not really. It's Libertarian.

Jesse_b

@Tim 1776. American talking point

Kusalananda

@Wildcard Right, I'm in Tim's camp here I think.

Jesse_b

"Give me liberty or I will kill you until you die"

Michael Homer

"Definitely don't give liberty to those people over there, though"

Kusalananda

@Wildcard That would lead to a lot af people not being able to afford very much.

Wildcard

23:22

@Kusalananda the basic contention with government-funded anything is that there are people in favor and people against, but nobody gets to choose not to fund whatever-it-is.

Tim

@Wildcard NYC invests a lot of money to install turnstiles and other equipments. Even the ATMs don't work properly. NYC also invest a lot in hiring cops to capture fare evasion. All this money can be used to fund free subway transportation

Jesse_b

@MichaelHomer The system was less perfect at the start but it was still better than the alternative

Wildcard

@Tim you're assuming that the common goal of the people administering the NYC subway is to have a clean, efficient, workable mode of public transportation.

Kusalananda

@Wildcard The inverse is that poor people don't have a choice in what they need to spend money on, and so lots of services quickly become unaffordable.

Such as schools and hospitals, and transportation.

Wildcard

Rather than e.g. to get re-elected, or to make money, or to get everybody's agreement that the subway is underfunded and that's why it's running so bad, or just to do as little work as possible.

Governments do not have any incentive to keep the quality high. Once the taxpayers are locked into funding something, there is no actual penalty for doing a bad job at providing it.

Tim

23:24

People's request can't be ignored, and their power can't be underestimated

twitter.com/tictoc/status/1192607704239476741

Wildcard

@Kusalananda not so. Schools and hospitals are HIGHLY regulated with insane contradictory regulations. This, in combination with the insulation from price on the part of the consumer, leads to skyrocketing prices.

Tim

twitter.com/democracynow/status/1190982712842215424

Kusalananda

Right. I should not get involved with discussing US government funding, because I know nothing about it. I'm just a Swede brought up with taxed-paid schools and hospitals.

Tim

A lot of billionaire also should pay their fair share. They can earn thousands of dollars in an hour without having to do anything.

Wildcard

@Tim how much, exactly, is their "fair share"?

Kusalananda

23:30

I, for example, pay maximum of about USD 200 per year for medication, regardless of that medication is. I know a guy who has leukaemia, his pills cost something like USD 150 per month (if not more). He still pays a maximum of USD 200 a year for them though. I'm quite happy to let my taxes go to that.

Tim

See Bernie's plan

Wildcard

@Tim that's not an answer.

Tim

His campaign does better analysis than I can

I am not a professional politician,

Wildcard

@Tim frankly, they don't.

Tim

They do

Wildcard

23:31

@Tim and professional politicians are not economists and are often clueless or worse about economics.

Tim

There are more than one person in his campaign

They can analyze together

Economists are not reliable either

Wildcard

@Tim they may have access to more numeric details than you do. But the conclusions are so very unworkable, that it is not true to say that they do better analysis than you can. I'm sort of complimenting you. ;)

@Tim I never mentioned economists. I mentioned economics.

@Tim and they can get wrong conclusions together, too.

Michael Homer

1 min ago, by Wildcard

@Tim and professional politicians are not economists and are often clueless or worse about economics.

Wildcard

@MichaelHomer right, true.

Michael Homer

it's literally the last thing you said

Tim

23:33

@Wildcard Better than let the billionaires continue their extravagant life style, while claiming the struggling people are lazy

Wildcard

@MichaelHomer yes, I used the word. I didn't mention any economists nor economists as a group, but I could have made the point more clearly.

Michael Homer

...

Wildcard

@Kusalananda right. In the U.S., colleges and universities hike up their tuition to astronomical figures far in excess of the actual value of the "education" they deliver. If students had to pay up front they would never do it. Instead, they get "student loans", which can take decades to pay off, and in the frequent cases where the student never does pay off the loan, the taxpayers foot the bill.

Kusalananda

@Wildcard We also take student loans, but that's for housing, food and text books. The tuition is free.

I'm actually just about to pay off my loan completely, and my gf did so last year.

After that, I have no loans whatsoever.

Tim

@Wildcard sorry for speaking to you without softening my tone

@Kusalananda Congratulations!
Do you have to pay the medical expenses for your diabetic cat? Just curious to what extent the medicare for all equivalence in Sweden can cover.

Wildcard

23:45

@Tim this is wildly inaccurate and places a greater importance on the use of emotionally charged language than it does on reaching rational, workable conclusions that can be applied to the benefit of any part of the society.

In other words, you are using rhetoric to disguise (or justify) the lack of workability of the economic solutions you are proposing.

Kusalananda

@Tim Yes, unfortunately. We do have a pet insurance though, and that helps. Vets are not part of the same machinery as human doctors.

Wildcard

@Jesse_b I hope you've read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"? You'd really love it. Robert Heinlein, you know.

Tim

@Wildcard I don't do the analysis myself. But I think reducing military expenses and taxing the rich more will fund a lot of things that you can't imagine

Wildcard

@Tim I agree with reducing war expenses. As for "taxing the rich more," it might sound emotionally appealing as a proposal, but when implemented it doesn't have any of the intended effects.

(That point is debatable, of course, since you haven't stated what the intended effects actually are.)

Tim

To a billionaire and millionaire, what can receiving more money do to their lives?

To poor people, what can receiving more money mean to them?

Wealth inequality has reached unreasonable extent

Wildcard

23:52

@Tim why don't you go and give ALL your money to homeless people, then?

@Tim improve their standard of living, of course.

What you're doing is saying that people some people are living in unacceptable conditions, we should penalize people who have a lot of money.

Tim

@Wildcard Whom do you assume I am? :)

Wildcard

The result of that philosophy is to have more people living in unacceptable conditions.

@Tim you have a computer. You have time to chat on the internet. You are therefore living in luxury compared to some people.

Michael Homer

9 mins ago, by Wildcard

@Tim this is wildly inaccurate and places a greater importance on the use of emotionally charged language than it does on reaching rational, workable conclusions that can be applied to the benefit of any part of the society.

Wildcard

(typo in earlier message, should have said "because some people are living...")

Michael Homer

8 mins ago, by Wildcard

In other words, you are using rhetoric to disguise (or justify) the lack of workability of the economic solutions you are proposing.

Just something to reflect upon

Wildcard

23:54

@MichaelHomer I don't know why you're quoting my comment. I asked a question, I haven't made a proposal.

Michael Homer

Unsubstantiated assertions flying all over around here

And I feel like Tim is, yet again, being used for sport

Wildcard

@MichaelHomer yet again? I don't understand.

Tim

@Wildcard This is not penalizing or demonizing the rich, this is to make the society fairer

Why so many american don't have the guts to defy the rich and powerful, but bully and daemonize immigrants?

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