Well, my phone decided to do a system upgrade in the middle of the night, which means I woke up too late. That together with 5h sleep seems to equal not being able to read and understand text properly today. Hence removed comment above. Apologies in advance to anyone ending up on my wrong side today.

Does anyone know what is with the Debian elpa- packages?

I suppose these are packages which are from the ELPA archives. But is there a good reason for prefixing them with elpa-?

@FaheemMitha To avoid name collisions, presumably.

And to highlight that they're emacs packages from elpa?

@terdon Name collisions with what?

@FaheemMitha Normally the name would include python.

@FaheemMitha lists.debian.org/debian-emacsen/2015/08/msg00008.html

but not reasoning given there

@StephenKitt huh?

@FaheemMitha with other packages that might exist now or in the future and could have the same name, I guess.

@FaheemMitha that’s when the decision was made, but it doesn’t explain why

@StephenKitt I forget, are you an emacs user?

@FaheemMitha yes

@StephenKitt Ah. I'm having problems with the elpy configuration. It says stuff isn't installed when it's installed.

Well, mostly using the Debian packages.

@StephenKitt And yet you didn't run in the elections and instead abandoned me to a bunch of vimites!

I guess my options are (a) toss out the Debian packages (b) ask for help with the Debian packages.

I'm kind of biased towards Debian packaging, but sometimes it's more work than it's worth. Thoughts?

@terdon vimites?

@terdon that wasn’t mentioned in the election questionnaire ;-)

@FaheemMitha take a guess :)

@FaheemMitha for ELPA I use the package manager inside Emacs, not elpa- packages

@terdon I know what you mean. It's just unexpected phrasing.

@StephenKitt Yes, I see. Is that better, then? I mean, less painful?

Well, I'd have gone for vimists, but that sounded too harsh.

@terdon They both sound like something from a political rant.

@FaheemMitha I don’t know, I haven’t used the packages; I’ve never had any problem with the Emacs package manager

I'm talking on #emacs. I guess i could ask them too.

But if the Debian packages are broken, shouldn't they be fixed?

@StephenKitt I see.

@FaheemMitha yes, and the best approach there is to file a bug

@StephenKitt Hmm.

@StephenKitt Was you reason for using the ELPA package directly because you thought they would work better? Or something else?

@FaheemMitha you can’t complain about Debian packages being buggy if you don’t want to file bugs

@FaheemMitha ELPA packages didn’t exist

@StephenKitt Oh

@terdon Hey!

@Kusalananda It's OK, some of my best friends are vimites.

@terdon Ok. Well then, emacsoite (emacsiote?).

@Kusalananda I think that's spelled discerning.

@Kusalananda I was going to say disciple of the Church of Emacs but I like terdon’s version better

el-terdon

terdon.el

terdon.elc

@terdon I beg your pardon, good sir! I'll thank you to refer to me as an edite. You can think of it like "erudite" but without the IM-speak of "ru".

@Kusalananda I prefer El Térdon, and a mariachi band.

@JeffSchaller lol

@StephenKitt Was chatting with the folks on #emacs (freenode). I guess I'll submit a Debian bug report. Sigh.

I'm also now seeing the error mentioned in github.com/jorgenschaefer/elpy/issues/1521

Hmm, it looks like #emacs isn't going to be helping me with debugging.

Has anyone here switched to Python 3?

Debian bug report for elpa-elpy

Hello, anyone here got some skill for mail on ubuntu?

Turns out that configuring mail on a server isnt as easy as I assumed heheh

@Martijn Exim, or something else?

Exim is pretty easy. There's a whole setup by the Debian maintainers.

And the maintainer answers questions too. Or used to.

It's been awhile.

Well, I shouldn't say pretty easy, perhaps. But there's a documented process.

I have Ubuntu, try a few tutorials, all not working. I purged postfix, trying clean now

Is there a way to get more info, this isnt telling me much?

I dont minder debugging, bug "Disconnected" isnt much to go on :')

@Martijn So you want to use postfix, not exim? You should start by saying that.

Eh, to be fair, I dont know where one ends and the other starts

Im a programmer, wanting to learn more about servers. I have server experience, but nothing about email

My VPS came with postfix, so I went with that. I've now created a extra user which I (think I ) now should be able to use, yet it gives 'auth failed'. I can log into a shell so the UN/PW combo is correct

@Martijn Debian defaults to exim. I'm not sure what Ubuntu defaults to.

@Martijn Are you testing by sending non-local mails? Do local mail (on the same server) work?

Exim is fairly easy to set up on Debian. There's also a book you can buy. I have it here. I stole it from this guy I was working for.

External mail servers often require that you authenticate with them before allowing to use them as relays.

Well, technically stole, but I don't think he cares/cared.

Though the online documentation is also quite reasonable.

I've never used postfix.

@Kusalananda Well, they should. There's enough spam in the world already.

@FaheemMitha You could try spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.

:-)

@derobert I fail to see the relevance of that statement. To anything, really.

With the possible exception of Monty Python.

And why it's called spam!

@FaheemMitha Except, it hits at the actual origin of the word "spam" in electronic media terms.

@derobert Hold the spam.

@FaheemMitha SORRY, COULDN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE VIKINGS.

@derobert Sorry, my Monty Python isn't up to scratch.

Hah, that wasn't a quote from the skit. Thought probably close...

Bloody Vikings.

@derobert ?

@FaheemMitha That's from the skit...

I'm sure YouTube has a copy

@derobert Oh

Dammit, the order of stream redirections always confuses me. Could someone please check my answer here and let me know if I'm saying something silly?

I'm trying to make sense of setq vs set. Emacs Lisp. Sigh.

@MichaelHomer thanks for your flag on meta. You might notice that it was dismissed as unhelpful but that's just because the only options we have for comment flags are "delete" (the comment) and "dismiss" (which appears as "declined" for you). Nevertheless, the flag was helpful and has been forwarded to those better positioned to deal with it. I just wanted to let you know in case you saw it was declined and wondered why.

@terdon Redirection are acted upon in a strict left-to-right manner. Not right-to-left.

I haven't tested the code in the question. Will do so soon.

@terdon, It was my understanding that it's right-to-left as well, but I think tee's output is getting mixed up. I'm getting intermingled output with my prompt, which makes me think (initially) that it's a timing thing.

@Kusalananda Are you sure about that? I know I can reproduce this easily and I know I have read that redirections are right-to-left, but I always have trouble finding a reference.

> "Redirections are processed in the order they appear, from left to right."

@JeffSchaller Ah! Crap. Where's that from?

gnu.org/software/bash/manual/html_node/…

I believe that the tee might mess things up a bit. Still testing.

dammit!

can't find the POSIX reference off-hand; I'd expect to find one

I think this is it:

> If more than one redirection operator is specified with a command, the order of evaluation is from beginning to end.

It's the second tee. If the second tee is changed to cat >, it works as expected.

Shell & Utilities - Shell Command Language - Redirection

So unless your shell is parsing Hebrew commands, :)

It's as if the output from the second tee is fed into the first.

Well, the output from the second tee does go to standard output, and standard output is redirected to the first tee.

So that's you answer.

right

@Kusalananda Yeah, that part of my answer was right. It's the order I always get wrong.

:-) I only read as far as "right-to-left"

And the output of the second tee goes into the input of the first tee since the redirection of stdout is done before the redirection of stderr in that command.

@Kusalananda Ah! Yes, that's right. The 2> >(tee err will effectively convert stderr to stdout and since we've already redirected stdout to out, the file out gets both streams.

Hmm... there ought to be something fun one could do with this...

I know there's something or other that's read in the opposite direction to what you expect. Or what I expect, anyway. And I am pretty sure I read about it here in one of either Gilles's or Stéphane's answers, so I'm also sure it's correct. If only I could remember what it was!

It is a rather neat trick. The standard error stream basically takes a trip through an extra command.

One could use it to uppercase errors by replacing the second tee with tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'

@terdon the part that always sticks sideways in my head is that the redirections, being parsed in order, apply to the updated destination, which is why cmd > /dev/null 2>&1 sends stderr to /dev/null instead of stdout

that's my best guess for your confusion, anyway

@terdon Some sort of operator precedence?

I made a tool to visualise pipelines & redirections, which I think does it correctly, so you can plug a command in and check what it shows

e.g. a 3>&1 1>&2 2>&3 3>&- | x sends stdout of a to the terminal, and stderr through the pipeline

But hmm, something is wrong with that. Thanks for the test case!

@MichaelHomer a 2> >(c) | b is wrong too, I think c's stdout winds up at b. Have to test...

yeah, it does, at least in bash

@derobert I think I fixed that already, but there's still another issue for terdon's command

Actually, hang on, no

Another one for the list

Pretty sure complex redirects are just a confusing way to write pipe(2) and dup2(2).

(and I guess open)

dup2 especially is the confusing one

@MichaelHomer cat <(echo hi) another test case for you

Ok, terdon's command is now correct at least. Need to sort out pipes... those are actually pretty tricky to represent

a <(b) is just weird on there. It doesn't seem to understand process substitution as a parameter

Or maybe I'm misreading the chart...

The blue line is how it represents it

But the stdout to TTY is still wrong the same way as for the echo

Yeah. There is an extra stdout.

@MichaelHomer Where's the code for that? Just idle curiosity.

@FaheemMitha It's just a web page, you've already got the code

Version control I need to put somewhere, unless you can git clone directly from there

@MichaelHomer You mean... Javascript?

@MichaelHomer Directly from where?

@MichaelHomer if you'd like to cry, a 3>&1 4>&2 2>&3 1>&4

@JeffSchaller Yes, that's exactly right! That's what keeps tripping me up.

@MichaelHomer You're a Kiwi?

(no offence intended, all NZers I know take pride in that denomination)

@FaheemMitha view-source:homepages.ecs.vuw.ac.nz/~mwh/pipevis/…

@MichaelHomer Works great! Favourited!

Hello Vorlon

Ah! Good to see you!

You remind me to ask for a holiday in August!

>:-)

Yes, People here are looking forward to it.

How are you? Still working on holidays?

@PrabhjotSingh Vorlon?

@Fabby No, I can't git clone from there.

@FaheemMitha Yes, what else would it be?

@derobert This one is actually working fine, it just draws the fd3 & 4 arrows on top of each other

@MichaelHomer Ah... well... that's sort of not working then :-/ Before it also was having an issue if you piped it somewhere, but that seems fixed now

a 3>&1 4>&2 2>&3 1>&4 | b has that pipe labeled fd3, not sure what that is trying to say

Ok, this doesn't work: a 3>&1 4>&2 2>&3 1>&4 1>&2 | b

@derobert Fixed this one too, though the layout leaves something to be desired

@MichaelHomer Dunno. So, you must have this under version control somewhere.

@FaheemMitha Fabby says that he is a Vorlon. I think this means warrior.

This has been tempting me to attempt a Perl/Graphviz version. If only graphviz has a -Tansi or similar...

(I guess that last one could be working if everything is drawn on top of each other...)

@PrabhjotSingh It does? I think it might be a Babylon 5 reference.

@derobert Version of what?

@FaheemMitha Yes, possibly. He made us fools.

@PrabhjotSingh What?

@FaheemMitha You can copy-paste!

@PrabhjotSingh Still working way too long!

(Just finished, going to sleep now)

@derobert And this one too, I think. The cat <(echo hi)/a <(b) one has some conceptual problems I'm not sure how to address so it is still off