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8:00 PM
@PrabhjotSingh I doubt they are nearly as limited as almost any other job
The more people there are the more of those jobs are required
a single mechanic can only work on so many cars, a single plumber can only unclog so many pipes, etc. More people = more demand
Other jobs scale much higher but those jobs don't have much scale at all
But we are a country of 120 crore, people do these works. But jobless too.
Here people have family kirana shops, now Supermarkets are crowding them out.
Well overpopulation is another issue
Technology upgradation leads to jobless society very often
I have heard Amazon will now destroy grocery shops in US.
@PrabhjotSingh technology invented the original job
before technology there was no concept of a job
People in early agrarian works were employed. Now economists may say this latent unemployment. But with scientific/industrial revolution they destroyed jobs.
8:10 PM
@PrabhjotSingh How did it destroy jobs if it created more than it destroyed?
@Jesse_b Not the most interesting of jobs. But they seem to pay reasonably well. At least in the US.
@FaheemMitha Welding interests me, not so much the others. Construction interests me though and that's another trade skill that probably wont go away anytime soon
@Jesse_b Working with materials might be interesting to some extent. But I think it really depends on the individual. Humans vary a lot.
From some point of view, both architecture and sculpting are working with materials.
@Jesse_b If industrial revolution created one job in Europe, this destroyed thousands of jobs in Asia. In colonial times, there were famines. These were killings by colonial regimes.
@FaheemMitha For sure, working with computers is extremely uninteresting to so many, but I think it all depends on aptitude as well. You aren't likely to be interested in something you can't excel in
8:13 PM
@Jesse_b Yes, aptitude and interest are positively correlated, of course.
@PrabhjotSingh And now asia has almost all the jobs...technology is what allows humanity to expand and grow it's numbers therefore growing the number of available positions
Without the industrial revolution we wouldn't have nearly the population we have now so there would be far less jobs available
@Jesse_b do you know people in rural area how much they get? You see a few there and you think people are well
@PrabhjotSingh I don't understand the question. How much they get paid?
@Jesse_b Industrial revolution was good cuz this promoted scientific temper. Bad this destroyed jobs.
@PrabhjotSingh I disagree, it created jobs
8:19 PM
@Jesse_b How much people in rural area get daily ? 200 to 300 rupees.
@FaheemMitha industrial revolution created or destroyed jobs? Your thoughts please.
@PrabhjotSingh I'm not sure how that's relevant. It's also cheaper to live in a rural area than a city but I can't speak to the cost of living in India. How did the industrial revolution really impact India though? What jobs existed there before it that didn't afterwards?
@PrabhjotSingh It did both, of course.
What is the percentage of unemployment in India currently?
@Jesse_b Adam Smith and Marx both support this fact.
@PrabhjotSingh Karl Marx? The clinically insane communist?
8:22 PM
@Jesse_b The industrial revolution doesn't apply to India. That was a European thing. Actually, more a British thing, at least initially.
Govt has not released employment data for two years
@FaheemMitha I agree but I didn't really want to say that. I am trying to understand why @PrabhjotSingh thinks it was bad though
India would probably have industrialized, but the British arrived and destroyed everything.
@PrabhjotSingh In 2017 it was 3.52 percent, of over 1 billion
@Jesse_b What was bad?
8:23 PM
@FaheemMitha What is origion of word 'loot'? How it became English word ?
@FaheemMitha the industrial revolution
@Jesse_b Those are typically not meaningful statistics anywhere. Particularly not in India.
@Jesse_b Which one? The British one? Or do you mean industrialization generally?
@FaheemMitha whatever @PrabhjotSingh is referring to as the enemy (of communism?)
According to Chomsky, people forced into industrlalization didn't object to indsustrialization per se. They objected to being made slaves. And industry was used as a tool to do that.
@FaheemMitha @Jesse_b Here is a link .
8:25 PM
E.g. people were driven off their farms and forced to work in factories.
I'd say there is some truth to that.
In general, industrial development is a mixed bag, at least in theory. But it often develops in abusive ways. Captalism plays some role in that.
@FaheemMitha And famines weren't because there was no food but because colonial people let them die
3.5% of India being unemployed means 1292135000 people are employed. Do you think those jobs would exist if it weren't for modern industry. More importantly do you think the world would have the means to even sustain that many people were it not for modern industry?
I'd say economic systems are more the issue here, not industrial/scientific development per se. And capitalism is a very dynamic, but also a very dysfunctional system which is increasingly poorly suited to being the main system that runs the world. But that's hardly much of an insight.
The population of the world is estimated to have been 682,000,000 prior to the industrial revolution
@PrabhjotSingh That's certainly true of India, at least.
8:28 PM
We surely have more than 682,000,000 jobs worldwide currently
5 mins ago, by Prabhjot Singh
@FaheemMitha What is origion of word 'loot'? How it became English word ?
@PrabhjotSingh I don't know. I could do a search, but so could you.
I think it's of Indian origin, but I'm not sure.
early 19th century (as a verb): from Hindi lūṭ, from Sanskrit luṇṭh- ‘rob’.
We stole so much from India we even stole your word for theft.
@Jesse_b I see.
@Jesse_b We?
I'm not sure what the point is though
8:31 PM
Had British not come here, loot couldn't have made it to English.@FaheemMitha
@FaheemMitha Us evil westerners (even though I am not anglo saxon, but I am white so all these things usually get projected onto me)
@Jesse_b US too was a colony. You can correct me
@Jesse_b Evil is a theological term. Not really useful.
Though I agree that often it's appealing.
@PrabhjotSingh Yeah every country is the result of evilness and genocide
@Jesse_b Not every country.
8:33 PM
@FaheemMitha I think that is debatable
Just depends on how far you want to go back
Everyone is a son or daughter of this planet.
Pick a country at random and you are sure to find a story of some group conquering some other group in order to take control of that land
@Jesse_b To different degrees. But without a perfect knowledge of history, it's impossible to say much.
@FaheemMitha True, I can say that I've yet to know of a country that wasn't founded on genocide
@Jesse_b India doesn't have a particularly violent history.
It did have multiple invasions, some of which are recorded in history, but nothing like what the Europeans did.
8:39 PM
@Jesse_b I beg your pardon.
What the British etc. did in North America, for example, is fairly unusual in recorded history in both scale and savagery.
Not unprecedented, of course.
@FaheemMitha Romans, huns, mongols
May not have been that common but certainly not unusual
Both the Europeans were unusually systematic and vicious killers, by historical standards.
@Jesse_b The Romans didn't do anything like what the Europeans did. They invaded many countries. They never tried to wipe out entire populations.
They used artillery. They had steam engine.
There was also a fair amount of intermarrying. For example, there were multiple invasions of the British Isles.
8:41 PM
@FaheemMitha I mean history is decided by the victor so I'm not entirely sure what is true but we supposedly didn't intentionally destroy the natives either
Not that what we did is just in any way but it's said that a great number of them died simply from the disease we brought
@PrabhjotSingh Who, the Romans? Yes, they were quite industrialised by the standards of the day. Probably the closest equivalent to the British and Americans in the Ancient World.
@FaheemMitha No, British.
@Jesse_b The British Roman invasions are quite well documented. You can read about them if you want.
@FaheemMitha The Romans has a lot, but not steam engines...
8:43 PM
Well, there was the notable example of Carthage...
@FaheemMitha :D :D :D
They sowed Carthaghe's ground with salt.
@Fabby I wrote that before seeing Jesse's link. But that's a very famous and terrible example.
Bonjour @Fabby
(It's still a desert 2000 years later)
They rebuilt it as a Roman city later. But it was so terrible that it's still remembered today, even in popular culture, to some extent. And that was when Rome was a Republic.
8:45 PM
@PrabhjotSingh ਸਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ
One does not lightly wipe an entire civilization off the face of the Earth.
Britain was also invaded and taken over by the romans so british people are likely mostly of roman descent
@PrabhjotSingh French is not my native language though, just my second or third, depening on how you count...µ
@Jesse_b At least the Welsh are...
@Fabby How are you? So still overtime?
@Jesse_b Well, yes. But they didn't make any attempt to wipe out the native population.
8:46 PM
The English are more French, Viking, Teutonic, ...
I don't know if you've read any of Rosemary Sutcliff's books, but they're quite good.
@FaheemMitha Again there is very little evidence that we intentionally wiped out the native americans
the fact that they still exist is kind of proof of that
@PrabhjotSingh Nah... Week-end!
She was technically a children's writer. But she was quite interested in Roman Britain.
E.g. the Eagle of the Ninth.
@Fabby you can get in trouble in 6 languages but get out of trouble in 4 languages. And french is not one of them
8:47 PM
@Jesse_b That's completely untrue. There is a ton of evidence.
@FaheemMitha Can you produce some?
@Jesse_b "We" as in "some Spanish or Italian 500 years ago" ...
@Fabby Try taking a look at "A People's History of the United States", particularly the early chapters.
@FaheemMitha There is some evidence that some people intentionally traded good contaminated by pox.
Presumably you are aware that the first thing that Columbus did when making landfall in the "New World" (in Hispaniola) was commit acts of violence and murder?
@Fabby That was a minor issue.
8:49 PM
@FaheemMitha Aztac?
@FaheemMitha Yes...
@FaheemMitha Yes but was the intent to completely eliminate the natives? Or just make them bend to his will
@Jesse_b There is also a fair amount of information on Wikipedia, if you want to go looking for it. I warn you, don't try reading it if you have a week stomach.
@Fabby This has also been disputed
@Jesse_b Oh, yes. Definitely.
8:50 PM
And we think we've progressed, but we're still as (un)civilized as the Romans.
As I understand it, the American natives were not very cooperative.
Think about this. Why did the colonials import (via kidnapping) people from Africa, when they had people in North America that they could enslave?
The only thing we can do is not to commence any acts of violence ourselves...
However, I'm not going to turn the other cheek: I'll hit back and I'll hit harder and ensure they don't hit me in the face again! :D ;-) :D
@Fabby Anthropologists are now trained to never allow native tribes to come in contact with modern clothing/blankets because they don't need to be intentionally contaminated. The clothes you wear every day will kill most native persons because we have developed immunities they don't have
The answer, as I understand it, was that the Africans were more cooperative.
@Jesse_b You could start by reading the early history of the Colonies. It's really horrible.
@FaheemMitha I know it was horrible but I'm just saying almost all history is equally as horrible
8:52 PM
Like I said, there is a fair amount of stuff on Wikipedia. And links. I haven't read much about it because it makes me feel ill.
Also almost all history is simply a collection of lies
@Jesse_b We were just discussing that. Comparing to the Romans, for example.
@Jesse_b Yeah... And Syphilis has been proven to exist before Columbus came back!
@Jesse_b Agreed, but we were discussing jobs getting out of colonies because of Industrial revolution.
@Jesse_b Ever read "the man in the high castle" ?
8:53 PM
The Romans are a fairly good choice, because they were very brutal, their history is comparatively well documented, and they didn't really try to hide much. They didn't think that there was anything wrong with conquest, for example.
@Fabby I have not
Disease was certainly a contributing cause, but in many cases, they just murdered the Natives. In the 17th century, for example.
@Jesse_b A "What if" book if the Third Reich and Japan won the war and divided the US in-between themselves.
@Fabby A rather unlikely event. That was never the idea.
But one must allow Dick his fancies.
@FaheemMitha Still fun to read...
8:55 PM
@Fabby I think they made a movie about that
@Fabby I guess. Never really been a fan. But he seems to be a big hit in HW these days. Albeit in a rather eviscerated form.
@FaheemMitha HardWare?
@Jesse_b It's a TV series. Possibly Amazon. Maybe a film before that.
@FaheemMitha Oh yeah that sounds right
@Fabby Hollywood, sorry.
8:56 PM
@FaheemMitha It is? Lemme lokk that up!
@FaheemMitha :D :D :D
if you talk about HW in /dev/chat, it'll be interpreted as "the stuff you can kick if it goes wrong"
@FaheemMitha Didn't the Indians gain their independence by not being violent?
(just not cooperating with the British Government any more)
@Fabby Well, that wasn't why the British left.
At least, that's what I understood from Gandhi
@FaheemMitha They got sick and tired of you lot , gave up and left???
:D :D :D
One factor was that Gandhi and his allies managed to make Indians think of themselves as Indians. Nationalism, in other words. But there were a whole bunch of other factors.
@Fabby No.
@FaheemMitha I guessed as much.
Why did they leave?
We still have contempt of court and criminal defamation. @Fabby @FaheemMitha
8:59 PM
@Fabby It's complicated.
@PrabhjotSingh Yeah...
Civil disobedience is still disobedience...
I suppose you are aware that even though the British ruled/owned India, they didn't do so by themselves.
They had a lot of help. Guess from who?
That's what the yellow vests is all about in France, Belgium, and now The Netherlands...
@FaheemMitha Indian collaborators?
The Maharadjas?
@Fabby Yes, the Indians who worked for them.
@FaheemMitha That's how any gummint Government works.
As long as people believe in the government, it works.
9:02 PM
And one of the things that the Indian resistance managed to do it make Indians think of themselves as Indians, thus weakening the bonds between the British and their Indian employees.
If they stop believing they invent guillotines and stuff..
That was one factor.
@FaheemMitha OK, with you so far. And the rest?
Then there was a lot of stuff that came from alterations in global societies, particularly in the West.
@Jesse_b do you live in a state where there still is a death penalty?
@FaheemMitha Yeah...
9:03 PM
@Fabby No, If people at large choose defy basic rights, necessities, no govt, court or parliament can get them rights etc.
Ho many are there still that do this/
@Fabby Not sure, the death penalty being legal is almost irrelevant in the US (other than texas) because no states (other than texas) actually execute criminals anymore
Because of industrialization, the British were also becoming more educated, and therefore a more democratic society. Relatively speaking.
So there was increasing questions about the legitimacy of the Empire.
@Jesse_b Oh! Learned something new!!!
Also the United States was becoming more powerful, and wanted more of a say in how the world was going to be run.
9:04 PM
@FaheemMitha @Fabby Death penalty yes. Marital rape No law against it
And the Second World War accelerated matters, as I understand it.
@PrabhjotSingh Ah!
Yeah, was same in Belgium until a few years ago...
It was because of a kludge of laws...
they modernised that old stuff.
Just took them 100 years to do so... :D ;-)
It damaged the British quite severely. And also British popular opinion after the war was more "demotratic", at least for some time. And there was increasing questioning about the justification for British tyranny, seeing as they had just defeated German tyranny. At least, that's how the British public looked at it.
@Jesse_b So it still exists but gets converted to life in prision then???
@FaheemMitha Interesting...
@FaheemMitha Yes, Many British supported idea of freedom. We have an Annie Baisant Road after her.
9:07 PM
Of course, the British in some ways are still a very backward and undemocratic people, so this is all relative.
:D :D :D
@Fabby Naw people are put on death row often but very rarely does an execution actually occur
@PrabhjotSingh Yes, and many in the 20th century British intelligensia wasn't particularly keen on the Empire.
@Jesse_b I don't understand: they're so long on death row that they die of natural causes?
that's similar to life in prison...
@Fabby Often times yes, doing some research it appears executions happen more often than I thought but the vast majority of people put on death row are never actually executed
9:09 PM
For example, the Fabian Socieity, and the circle of people surrounding them. E.g. Shaw, Wells, Russell, the Webbs, and so forth.
Anyway, like I said, it's complicated.
@Jesse_b I know electric chair and lethal injection are used, but IMHO, they should get the Guillotine back, make it into a reality TV show and then it'll be gone in just a few months...
>:-) ;-)
@FaheemMitha Is there anything that is easy in India???
@Fabby I think the electric chair has been outlawed everywhere
So there are not extra judicial killings ?
So people don't die of hunger ?
Hah I guess I'm wrong about that too
9:11 PM
The British have always had capable and remarkable people. You have to give them credit for that. Well, in the last 500 years, or so, anyway.
But even texas has banned the electric chair
@Jesse_b You see? Us Europeans have a few wrong ideas about the US...
florida still allows it though
@Fabby Dunno.
:D :D :D
9:12 PM
@Jesse_b In third world where there is very low supply of electricity?
Sex is complicated in India, eating is complicated in India, travelling is complicated, but that one is just because it's so big!!!
I don't think anyone knows the reason for major global events. It's always a mix of factors. I suppose you could visit Mountbatten in Hell and ask him what he thinks.
@Fabby @PrabhjotSingh is eagerly looking forward to your putative visit to India.
@FaheemMitha RBI, Railways who started this.
The electric chair was a cruel invention of thomas edison to prove how dangerous A/C is as he was trying to push D/C
@PrabhjotSingh Pardon?
9:13 PM
It ends up not working in most cases
@FaheemMitha yeah...
@FaheemMitha RBI is creation of British, a very credible institute of ours
@PrabhjotSingh Oh.
@Jesse_b Unlike the Guillotine...
@Jesse_b Did you know why the Guillotine was invented???
It was because the job of executioner was very specialised and very well paid and with a lot of demand and little supply something had to be done to make executions more economical!
@FaheemMitha If he comes to Mumbai, he must tell two months in advance so that I can get my train reservation done. If he comes Delhi, I can reach there tomorrow.
9:16 PM
@Fabby There you go. Did you get that?
@PrabhjotSingh I'll have to plan to travel inside India
2 weeks Bengaluru, 1 week Mumbai, 1 week Delhi...
@FaheemMitha why don't you come to Delhi?
@PrabhjotSingh Tomorrow I'm going to talk to the person who wants me to go to Greece with her.
then I can push out my vacation until after my last project is finished and starting to plan around my vacation.
Now it's just too much of a hassle for everyone else.
9:18 PM
@Fabby Yes, you said Greece or Jordan if less than one month.
Need a drink! BRB
@PrabhjotSingh Yeah, but I can do those any time...
@PrabhjotSingh Busy. Also, I have no particular reason to go. Also, I've heard bad things about it.
India is going to be a once a lifetime experience...
@FaheemMitha Delhi is bad???
@Fabby Anyway, I took a crack at answering your question. Though one could write a book on the topic.
I thought it was one of the jewels of India...
9:20 PM
@Fabby One hears bad things about it, yes.
@Fabby Jewels?
@FaheemMitha your Hindi is good?
@PrabhjotSingh Most definitely not. It's terrible.
Actually, I tell people I don't really speak it, I fake it.
@FaheemMitha Yeah like Humayun’s Tomb...
@FaheemMitha me too.
@Fabby That's just a site.
9:21 PM
I can say Namaste and Dhanyewaad and that's it.
And guru and yoghi
(I suppose those are Hindi words, bit don't really know)
So whenever Fabby comes I have to bring my cousin along.
@PrabhjotSingh To marry me away???
:O :O :O
:D :D :D
@Fabby So that He can act as my translater.
@Fabby I hope you are actually planning to come, because otherwise @PrabhjotSingh will be bitterly disappointed.
@FaheemMitha Even if he doesn't come, I have hope that someday I will see my brothers. @FaheemMitha @Fabby @Jesse_b. Hope never dies. And what is the end of meet? To leave. Then too we hope that we will meet again. Life is like a vehicle. We meet fellow travelers.
9:28 PM
@PrabhjotSingh Sounds like something from the hitchhikers guide to the universe
@PrabhjotSingh I see you're getting poetic again.
@FaheemMitha again?
@PrabhjotSingh I think there were earlier instances.
@PrabhjotSingh Yu speak English and I can understand HInglish pretty well.
@FaheemMitha About tables in LaTeX?
9:30 PM
I once had to translate between a Frenchman speaking English and an Indian speaking English and ...
... they didn't understand one another!
@Fabby What if we both speak Engrish?
@PrabhjotSingh Yes, I think you were being poetic about LaTeX.
Though this is perhaps not the right room to be so.
@FaheemMitha Man, I've been wanting to come ever since Naveen invited me over to play chef at his house for a week, as long as I don't insist on cooking beef!
@Fabby Who is Naveen?
@Jesse_b It does...
9:32 PM
@FaheemMitha Naveen is Indian. I know him.
@FaheemMitha A colleague and a nice guy...
@Fabby And lives in India?
@FaheemMitha He works at our facility in Bengaluru.
@FaheemMitha I would be disappointed because he owes me 400 rupees.
@PrabhjotSingh :D :D :D
You'll get your 5€!
9:35 PM
@Fabby Ah, yes. Bangalore.
OK gents: going to wathc a movie and probably fall asleep halfway thought it.
@Fabby in my town there are no Europeans, it would be useless.
@PrabhjotSingh There are no banks neither?
It's going to be easy for me: just drop the last two zeroes from rupees and that's the price in €
Falling asleep!
Movie and sleep!!!
@Jesse_b Got a new title for tomorrow 's .Tex document. Hitchhikers guide to Universe.
9:53 PM
@PrabhjotSingh 42
10:15 PM
@Jesse_b what is 42?
@PrabhjotSingh The meaning of life the universe and everything
@Jesse_b but why a number? Any citation.
Life, the Universe and Everything (1982, ISBN 0-345-39182-9) is the third book in the five-volume Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy science fiction trilogy by British writer Douglas Adams. The title refers to the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. The story was originally outlined by Adams as Doctor Who and the Krikkitmen to be a Tom Baker Doctor Who television six-part story, but was rejected by the BBC. It was later considered as a plotline for the second series of the Hitchhiker's TV series, which was never commissioned. A radio adaptation of Life, the Universe and Everything w...
10:38 PM
@PrabhjotSingh It's a joke. Once upon a time there was a chap called Douglas Adams.
And he wrote a book.
Well, several books.
11:18 PM
@FaheemMitha I remember you said that when I wrote that I have a question. But 42 is beyond my comprehension.
@FaheemMitha you read what Freud has written about jokes?
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