/dev/chat

Gilles

00:13

I've retagged most of the shortcuts questions to keyboard-shortcuts. The ones that are left aren't about keyboard shortcuts.

Is there any common theme or should we just put that tag out of its misery?

Braiam

00:28

do Linux/unix has proper shortcuts at the .lnk windows meaning? I've seen symlink, hard link, etclink but never a "shortcut"

ah, .desktops/xdg doesn't count

Gilles

@Braiam the thing that tosses a coin to see if it follows an executable when it moves? No

derobert

@Braiam How is the Windows .lnk meaning different than a symlink?

Or a short shell script...?

Now, if you wanted something like Mac OS aliases, those don't exist in Linux.

Braiam

@derobert in windows you have symlink and shortcuts...please don't mix them :(

btw, they behave different...

you can't execute a shortcut, unless you use explorer

derobert

How differently do they behave? I've never used a Windows one for anything other than, say, putting a program in the start menu, or a quick launch bar, or the desktop, or... etc.

And similar for directories, or network shares

But I'm not a Windows user, so, I'm not surprised they might have features I've never heard of

But from checking Wikipedia, and from what I've used them before, they seem more like *.desktop files

(Anyway, heading home. Finally...)

Braiam

@derobert travel well

strugee

01:05

@slm I beat Stephane \o/

derobert

Home. Now I can work on my mail server. Or play Minecraft...

strugee

@derobert what's the difference between OS X aliases and .lnks?

derobert

Aliases (at least Mac OS Classic ones) function sort of as hardlinks, sort of as symlinks.

They'll follow a file around, even if you move or rename it

So in that respect, they're like a hardlink

but they also work cross-volume

and if you delete a file, but put a new one in its place, the alias will update to the new file

strugee

ah. makes sense

derobert

and they're implemented at the filesystem API level, so they work everywhere

strugee

01:09

should have just read Wikipedia...

derobert

not just in Explorer

you can even, for example, make an alias to a shared library, and that works

strugee

interesting. little known fact: Windows (well, NTFS) actually has something like symlinks nowadays, that works everywhere

derobert

Wonder how many programs get confused from them...?

strugee

they're called junction links IIRC but the only way to actually create one is on the commandline, which means either cmd.exe or PowerShell

@derobert none, I think. they work at the filesystem level

derobert

sure, but that doesn't mean programs don't get confused. E.g., attempt to recurse a directory tree, go into infinite recursion

strugee

01:12

oh that's true

derobert

that's of course a problem on Unix too, but Unix has always had symlinks, so programs should be aware.

strugee

ah, nevermind - they're called symlinks on NTFS, too. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntfs#Directory_junctions

@derobert hasn't UNIX only had symlinks since System V Release 4?

unless you count that as "always"

derobert

I'm not sure when they were added... but that's old enough to be always :-P

Braiam

@strugee figure of speech

;)

derobert

At least for 99.9% of the programs anyone runs

Not many programs currently in use predate that...

strugee

01:17

heh

derobert

Given, that's starting to be true of NTFS as well. Though I'm not sure how widely used that feature is, especially since AFAIK there is no GUI for it.

Or maybe there finally is in Windows 7 or 8.

But I don't think XP had one

Braiam

seriously, who up vote this soft ball, I'm not saying that rep is bad but seriously, there are other even better answers that I've wrote without votes D:

derobert

It could be worse; it could be about cows.

Braiam

D:

Gilles

352

A: Help me remember a quote from Alan Kay

I will try to remember what I said, but none of the answers so far are correct (every one of them was done in the 60s and 70s before the commercialization of PCs in the 80s). However, we could start all over and try to think of new inventions in computing since the 1980s.

score: 352 for saying “I don't remember”

Braiam

01:22

oh god...

I swear that is a sockpuppet!

strugee

@derobert yep. there's nothing graphical, only MKLINK.

strugee

01:43

so I'm in review and there's a question that I would normally downvote but I can't (yet)

for reference:

unix.stackexchange.com/review/low-quality-posts/32430

should I say "looks good", or what?

derobert

why can't you downvote it?

you could say "skip"

Braiam

@strugee just click the "link" and vtc with the reason: Op's need to read the Arch Wiki

derobert

that's hardly a reason to close

Braiam

in AU we got someone to write "really?"

derobert

SO has its 'must demonstrate minimal understanding'...

but 'answer can be found on the wiki' is not a good close reason

I wonder, do we already have that answered somewhere? Maybe its a duplicate?

Braiam

01:49

> Which are the best Adult games for ubuntu?

derobert

wtf

spam?

Braiam

no, was actually a "valid" question, but he wanted a "list"

I'm not sure if taking a screenshot of the deleted question

derobert

deleted questions are hidden for user experience reasons... they're not secret

strugee

@derobert it's on the low quality list so it's not a real question yet. I think? dunno

derobert

e.g., they're in the public data dumps, and you could go query it out with the data explorer

Braiam

01:53

@derobert I'm more preoccupied about the-one-who-shall-not-be-named

derobert

programming on boats?

Never happened. :-/

Braiam

NSFW i.imgur.com/vlfQ3Vt.png

Gilles

@strugee VLQ means “unsalvageable, should be deleted”. This isn't a VLQ post.

derobert

Hah, yeah, Q&A is hard, let's go shopping (FOR PORN)

Read in the style of Avenue Q, of course

Gilles

@derobert no, deleted posts are not in the data dumps (unless they weren't deleted when the data dump was made of course)

derobert

01:58

@Gilles really? Last time I looked for one on the data explorer, they were there

but maybe that was a case of deleted after the dump

Braiam

man, Mandela died :(

derobert

@Gilles so yeah, appears when I search for that deleted question in the data explorer, its not there.

4

A: Filtering deleted questions in StackExchange Data Explorer

The public data dumps (which SEDE runs off of) do not include deleted posts at all. What you are seeing is old data from the last dump.

so it seems official that they don't. Wonder why...

Gilles

@derobert the data dump only includes information that's publicly available

derobert

Deleted questions are visible to non-mods, so ...

I mean, there are over 100 pages of people on SO's user page that can see deleted questions

Gilles

@derobert they aren't publicly visible, only to a restricted set of users

derobert

02:11

When it's 135 pages of users (almost all of which aren't bound by any confidentiality), and you're giving the content out under a CC license, that's still pretty public

slm

05:03

@strugee - yeah but he can get a pass on voting since he does a lot for the site in other ways 8-)

I've played with windows .lnk files they're more similar to .desktop files, but they aren't pure text, they're binary files. They're not really OS files like symlinks, they're data files to windows explorer.

2

strugee

@slm yeah, I know. (for a moment there I thought you were referring to low-quality-question guy and I got really confused)

strugee

05:36

anyone know how long it takes badges to appear?

slm

05:56

I think it depends

taxonomy badges show up daily, I believe

reviewing badges and others show up shortly after they're achieved

strugee

@slm taxonomy?

are you talking about a class or that one badge?

hmm. looks like the new topbar doesn't notify about new badges

slm

for tags

strugee

ah:

1

Q: Badge notification in the new top bar

I discovered today that I was awarded the Steward badge for edit reviews, but there was no notification of this. In the previous top bar, there were two types of alerts - red for inbox, gray for notifications (or whatever they were called). In the new top bar, I can only see the inbox. Did I miss...

slm

unix.stackexchange.com/help/badges?tab=tags&filter=bronze

@strugee - i just had this happen, I got the close review badge for 1k and there was no notification.

strugee

ahhh. I'd always wondered what the tag badges listed on the badges list were, I thought they were single badges hidden for some reason

yeah I was originally asking about badges because I was waiting for a bounty badge to show up

slm

06:10

yeah do you get those when you attach a bounty or after you assign it

the tag badges are one enticement for reorganizing the tags

when they're applied correctly we can get badges

strugee

both. I just bountied my first own question and got the Promoter badge but e.g. you get the Altruist badge when you award your first bounty

huh, how is "correctly" determined?

slm

we form a consensus and then start retagging things

strugee

right, I meant by the system

slm

when you have a A that is under the correct set of tags you can get the badge

strugee

as in, how does the system know when a retag is "correct" enough to warrant you getting closer to a tag badge

slm

06:14

yeah i don't think those happen but once aday

strugee

ah

slm

the tag badges usually don't show up until after the tally (at least that's how I've noticed it)

so i'll get a bunch coming in when the next "day" starts on the site

7pm EST currently for me

strugee

makes sense. I think your thing about everything else being processed quickly was right, btw. I got the bounty badge ~5 minutes after

slm

tag badges and the legendary badge are probably the hardest ones to get

b/c you basically have to be good for a long time to get them

strugee

I'd argue that "read the FAQ" is the hardest

slm

06:18

obviously gilles is the only one to gold in 3 of them, but you need 1k over at least 20 answers

that's what i've been working on + the legendary one

strugee

hahaha. of course Gilles would have them

slm

FAQ, funny

he only has 3 golds of tags

the epic me gilles and steph have that

those are tough b/c you have to get 200 points 50 days

strugee

in all seriousness though I agree with your assessment on difficulty

that's insane

slm

then do it 3x (150 days) for the legendary

i'm almost there for that one

another 1-2 wks

strugee

I don't have that much time, much less that much knowledge :P

slm

06:21

yeah it's interesting how Jeff Atwood knew to build the site engine to me

having the levels and gamifying it works

but it basically is designed to teach you how to function within a given site

strugee

yeah omg I'm really driven by the reputation

slm

so they're getting you to do the work the way they want but you think you're playing a game of sorts

yeah the key is to answer

strugee

yeah. although I think no one really considers this work. the interesting thing is that everyone knows that they're "playing the game", but not really. and yet they still opt in

slm

i can't tell you how many times i see many that just leave comments

i used to be afraid to take the comment and expand it but do it regularly now

i'm generally in/out during the day, during lunch, and then most of the night i switch in/out

strugee

to be honest I'm totally That Guy(tm). mostly because someone's already written an answer but I know something obscure that they haven't considered

slm

06:25

the community is a big part of it too, i like chatting w/ everyone here too, so it becomes social too

strugee

or I just don't know enough, so I comment

slm

yeah i think most ppl fall into that category, also some ppl don't want to look stupid/wrong so a comment is less dangerous, also some ppl don't want to be bothered with writing up the answer

strugee

I really like U&L, because the community's small. I mean, I'm not against expansion, but it's nice getting to know most of the regulars. on SO, that's impossible, seems like

slm

same here

i stopped going to SO/SU/AU for that exact reason

strugee

speaking of new users: have you seen unix.stackexchange.com/users/53838/sumit-gupta?

slm

06:26

i find stuff there and will fix things as i come across it but that's it

strugee

he seems to be just restating things already posted

slm

nope

strugee

as an aside: my math teacher does this programming unit where we do Python alongside regular math and so he was introducing us to stuff and his advice for solving problems was: "Google for it and look for the results from Stack Overflow. Stack Overflow has the best answers." and I was just like, the internet has been won

wrt the new user: you don't think so?

slm

hadn't seen him

i agree w/ you though

strugee

oh, ok. I misunderstood

slm

06:31

that's funny about your teacher saying that

i generally find it annoying when ppl try to answer Q's w/ accepts esp. when it has been +32'd

if it's wrong fine, but the file system /bin /sbin is dumb

strugee

yeah. we were doing matrices at the time, and he introduced Python lists as "how you do matrices" and I died inside

slm

he's probably trying to participate but hese ar the wrong Q's to try to answer.

strugee

can we do anything about it? I don't know what the SE-approved way to deal with this is

slm

down voting is one thing.

we can try messaging him

strugee

should I flag for removal?

slm

06:39

the user or answers?

strugee

I was thinking answers but either works

slm

He's not operating outside the scope of the site, i would go through the A's and if it's low value then DV

strugee

ok

slm

see if he gets the msg. I'll leave him a comment explaining why i DV

strugee

I left one on the /bin /sbin answer

slm

07:26

@strugee - i've been noticing some weird behavior w/ this account too

unix.stackexchange.com/users/53838/sumit-gupta?tab=summary

I flagged one of the A's about it.

@Anthon - keep an eye on this account: unix.stackexchange.com/users/53838/sumit-gupta

at a minimum they're posting answer on Q's that have accepted A's + they're Q&A's that are already highly voted up A's.

slm

07:45

@Anthon - he's also in the chat room watching!

@sumitgupta - hi!

Anthon

09:23

@slm I had noticed many late answers for that user yesterday, but they looked ok. I googled one today unix.stackexchange.com/a/103815/33055 and found it is a literal copy of a post from 2008-12-14 on forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-85446.html

(Hate it when these kind of lists don't have ID's for the individual posts.

Hmm, no possibility to flag as plagiarizing without mentioning source...

@kevdog777 go easy on the uppercasing while editing. SCP as a command should be scp on this site

(that is lower case and backquoted)

Kevdog777

@Anthon the SCP is not code, is it? Because I use a program called WinSCP to connect to my Virtual machines, that is why I uppercased the letters

its not a command, in this case

Anthon

it is not just code that is put in backquotes. Also paths ( /usr/local/bin and commands ssh)

I would not use the name as used under windows for a some program as a reference. "scp" is the name on Linux

Kevdog777

how do you see it as a command? Like how can you 'scp' to a machine? I thought it was a more secure way of connecting to a machine other than FTP

Anthon

Uppercase is less easily recognised than lowercase, especially with serif fonts (based on psychological experiments). Apart from that it gives the idea from shouting.

you copy files using the scp command

Kevdog777

OK I see now, looking at this page (infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/xfer/scp.html) - I know its not a nice looking page, but kinda explains it. Thanks for explaining, I honestly didn't know it was a command

Anthon

09:38

No problem, it also a protocol, but when people talk about using ftp they most often mean the program, not the File Transfer Protocol (FTP) it uses.

I would only use SCP if they explicitly talk about the Secure Copy Protocol in contrast e.g. to FTP

Kevdog777

See, I would help the OP if I knew they were using SCP (the program, like WinSCP, etc.), as I use it everyday to connect to my VM's. I am not a 100% user on Linux, as my main OS is Windows Vista. So I am still learning on Linux

Anthon

(and of course one should not write FTP protocol, that would be an example of the RAS syndrome)

Kevdog777

RAS?

Anthon

I recommend that when there might be doubt, don't assume the protocol is meant. And yes of course the OP might have the understanding and use a series of programs based on the the Secure Copy Protocol. but combined with the legibility issue I recommend leaving things at scp

BTW it easier to change "... scp ..." into "... scp ..." than into "... SSH ...": just select the word and hit Ctrl+K

Redundant Acronym Syndrome

RAS syndrome

RAS syndrome (short for "redundant acronym syndrome syndrome"), also known as PNS syndrome ("PIN number syndrome syndrome", which expands to "personal identification number number syndrome syndrome") or RAP phrases ("redundant acronym phrase phrases"), refers to the use of one or more of the words that make up an acronym or initialism in conjunction with the abbreviated form, thus in effect repeating one or more words. A person is humorously said to suffer from RAS syndrome when he or she redundantly uses one or more of the words that make up an acronym or initialism with the abbreviation ...

Kevdog777

"personal identification number number syndrome syndrome"? haha

Risto Salminen

10:12

Can someone clarify to me why did Raphael Ahrens choose to "Edit" my edit suggestion to this question rather than just pressing "Approve". That's because I didn't notice any difference between my suggested edit and the "edit" that Raphael did.

Anthon

@RistoSalminen you don't want to backquote in the title of a question

Risto Salminen

Ah, I see.

Anthon

have you looked at the revision history (link above Raphael Arens name)

That is where you can see what was actually done.

Risto Salminen

That's exactly what I did, but I didn't notice that he only changed the title.

Anthon

I actually missed that when I approved unix.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/32468

Risto Salminen

10:20

Yeah.

Well, as I can see, the only thing he did was indeed that he removed those backquotes from title.

So it's clear for me now.

But still, I have seen many questions with backquoted strings in title, and I thought it shouldn't be wrong.

Anthon

I am not sure if you actually see them or not, I don't think I ever added that (or bold/italics).

obviously Rafael did not think it to be a major infringement otherwise he would have indicated your contribution was not useful (and you would have missed your 2 rep).

Risto Salminen

That's true.

slm

12:35

@RistoSalminen @Anthon - Anthon is right, back ticks shouldn't be in titles, but I've seen them too. If you see them edit the post and fix them.

@Anthon Yeah @strugee altered me to the posts. I saw your meta Q Good Q and good response from Gilles. Not sure if I like keeping the content as fully quoted but I guess that's how it should be handled.

Utkarsh

hi ever1

askubuntu.com/questions/361781/… is it true?

slm

13:08

@Utkarsh - seems plausible to me.

derobert

13:45

@Utkarsh the upvoted answer is

Risto Salminen

@slm Thanks for increasing my knowledge about SE again ;)

slm

14:12

@RistoSalminen - just paying it forward from someone that showed me

Vinood NK Maheshwari

14:52

hi i need a cool hacker

its very urgent pls help me

strugee

16:21

@VinoodNKMaheshwari unless you mean hacker as in the classical sense - as in, the Jargon File and UNIX and esr - you are in the very wrong place.

slm

@all - something to be aware of

2

Q: What to do about copied content

I was pointed out in chat that some user might have strange behaviour. I had actually ok-ed Late Answers from that user and had another look at one of them. This text is copied verbatim from http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-85446.html ( post from 2008-12-14). Should I flag this ...

discussion plagiarism

strugee

16:39

why was his question removed? don't get me wrong, it seemed not well formulated, but more a candidate for closure rather than deletion

derobert

@Gilles "Plagiarism is only about content, not ideas,…" wait, what? In an academic paper, it surely is about ideas as well.

strugee

@derobert he probably meant "plagiarism here"

derobert

If you find a neat approach to solve a problem from Bob, you ought to give credit to Bob for the idea, even if you write your own version of the code...

strugee

yeah, that's true. I think it's just phrasing (his assertion after saying that is correct)

derobert

"If you find the same solution explained in different words, that's not plagiarism." ... well, it might be. Its hard to say.

strugee

16:48

yeah, probably go on a case-by-case basis

derobert

That paragraph is seems to fail to differentiate between what's actually plagiarism, and what's plagiarism we can easily detect and deal with

strugee

man, I wish I had 10k so I could view meta.unix.stackexchange.com/questions/2548/…

derobert

strugee

@derobert heh, thanks.

derobert

When I was searching around on meta.SO for info about if deleted questions are included in the data dump, it appears that is the accepted workaround...

find a random 10k user and ask for a copy

strugee

16:54

that seems flawed

I mean, it seems like if it's widely accepted to do that then why should you hide it in the first place?

Gilles

17:08

@derobert yes, because academic papers are about presenting novel ideas: anything you write in an academic paper is assumed to be new by default, so you must acknowledge any pre-existing idea

On SE, we don't guarantee originality of ideas and don't require citations

I've added a note to my post

derobert

@strugee I think its some variation of "deleted questions are generally junk. Junk ads negative value to the Internet."

strugee

18:39

unix.stackexchange.com/questions/40901/… mentions multiple questions. should I flag as unclear what you're asking or too broad?

derobert

19:01

wow... wtf is the question there...

And someone upvoted that!

strugee

I know, right? so which one is it?

I can see it going either way

derobert

Who knows, maybe it'll turn out to be closed as silly typo?

Some of your configure flags contain a typo with vs. wth. — Ulrich Dangel Jun 16 '12 at 0:03

wait, just saw the date on that. It's ancient.

strugee

yeah, but it's probably still on the unanswered list. worth closing, I think. (plus it uses the [install] tag)

derobert

if you're cleaning up a tag, just retag it to remove

strugee

yeah, ok

Gilles

20:24

I'd like to make a community ad for zsh

I suck at graphical design, however

anybody got ideas?

Tshepang

22:59

@slm amazing answer there @Gilles

derobert

23:22

@Gilles empirically, photos of Dennis Ritchie work best

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