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6:46 AM
@AndrasDeak He forgot cd.
2 hours later…
9:06 AM
Python question. Is there reason to prefer one of these over the other?
or are they equivalent?
airbnbbanktoprint = airbnbbank[['AirbnbDate', 'Guest', 'Nights', 'AirbnbPayout', 'BankDate', 'BankPayout']].copy()
airbnbbanktoprint = airbnbbank.loc[:, ['AirbnbDate', 'Guest', 'Nights', 'AirbnbPayout', 'BankDate', 'BankPayout']].copy()
9:20 AM
I think they are equivalent, but I'd prefer the latter for explicitness. And I think the .copy() is superfluous (but it won't hurt).
@FaheemMitha right!
@FaheemMitha There are a number of other's that he forgot too, like at, id, and tr, and those are just the POSIX ones that are missing.
9:35 AM
Other things being equal, I kind of prefer the second one, because the rows and columns are explicit there.
@AndrasDeak The reason the .copy() is there is to avoid the dreaded SettingWithCopyWarning. See for example towardsdatascience.com/…
That line was followed by

airbnbbanktoprint.loc[20, "Guest"] = "Guest Name"
Without the .copy() I get the dreaded warning, for the first version, at least. I.e. [[ ]].
@Kusalananda I thought maybe he was excluding builtins.
@FaheemMitha at, id and tr aren’t builtins ;-)
I don't get the SettingWithCopyWarning with the .loc version. Go figure.
(but I take it you were referring to cd)
I’m curious about the ascribed meaning for dd (data description); ISTR a Q&A here about that but I can’t find it
I was trying to find out whether it was stated somewhere which versions returned a view, and which returned a copy, but I just got a headache.
@StephenKitt Yes, I realise that. I mean, I thought that originally. Then I realised there were other two letter commands which were not builtins (of course). Are non-builtins referred to as executables? Or something else?
Here is another unfortunate user who was also confused about it.
Q: What rules does Pandas use to generate a view vs a copy?

oromeI'm confused about the rules Pandas uses when deciding that a selection from a dataframe is a copy of the original dataframe, or a view on the original. If I have, for example, df = pd.DataFrame(np.random.randn(8,8), columns=list('ABCDEFGH'), index=range(1,9)) I understand that a query return...

@FaheemMitha ah, that's a bit surprising, coming from numpy. I guess it makes sense, since pandas data is in columns. OK, then keep the copy.
9:45 AM
I wonder if the answer enlightened him.
pandas is a bit of a mess
@AndrasDeak Try it yourself. Perhaps my computer has Gremlins.
No, I'm just not a pandas user
@FaheemMitha in POSIX terminology, they’re all utilities; built-in utilities are identified as such, everything else isn’t, and built-in utilities are also supposed to exist as executables
That would explain quite a lot, actually.
@AndrasDeak Oh, I thought you were. My mistake.
@StephenKitt I thought an executable was a bit of machine code.
9:46 AM
I can just extrapolate to a lot of pandas from numpy. Specifically the tag on SO is a dumpster fire so I avoid it like the plague it is.
@AndrasDeak Pandas inherits from Numpy. Apparently that's part of the problem.
Yesterday when reading this I experienced levels of confusion I normally associate with R.
No, that's not part of the problem. What it does after inheritance is the problem, and the huge and inconsistent API.
there was a push to remove numpy from pandas, but I think it died
@AndrasDeak I'll take your word for it. I'm not inclined to delve into it. The docs say everything is fine, but it smells like a cult to me.
@FaheemMitha in my mind, an executable is a file with the executable bit set ;-)
@StephenKitt OK, so for a builtin, where is the file? :-)
9:49 AM
@FaheemMitha it’s a utility, not an executable; but in POSIX, built-ins also need to exist as executable — note also
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding "built-in utilities are also supposed to exist as executables". Are those supposed to be two separate entities?
@StephenKitt So two separate things?
@FaheemMitha yes, an implementation in the shell, and an implementation as a distinct executable
this doesn’t make much sense e.g. for cd but it is required for UNIX certification
@StephenKitt OK. Well Debian does not have cd as an executable, though.
@FaheemMitha Debian isn’t a certified UNIX
So no UNIX certification for Debian?
@StephenKitt That's too bad.
That's a curious requirement.
9:52 AM
Q: Is there a Linux distro that's UNIX certified?

PC LudditeIs there a Linux distribution certified with the Single UNIX Specification? What are the primary reasons that most distributions don't get certified?

Huawei has a Linux? Weird.
I wish they'd put it on my phone.
10:09 AM
n.b. "built-in utilities" must exist, but "special built-in utilities" don't, and which is in which category may surprise
4 hours later…
2:15 PM
Do we have consensus on whether to represent keyboard letters always as uppercase characters? I found this latest edit, by @AdminBee, confusing in this regard and would like to revert it. Maybe I should take it to Meta?
I’m not sure I’m entirely consistent with my keyboard edits, but I’d rather indicate the actual case in the key... I also have a keyboard somewhere which is labeled in lower case.
But this would be better discussed on Meta, yes, especially if the goal is to establish a ground rule.
Thanks Stephen, done.
@Quasímodo In that case, ideally I would roll it back to revision 2. Mentioning keys instead of command(s) doesn't seem particularly useful to me.
(Except I wouldn't really do that, I'd find it somehow disrespectful, especially to the reviewers that accepted the proposed edits).
@Quasímodo Personally (there is no policy on this I am aware of, so I'm just speaking as a regular user) I think we should always use lower case unless we actually need upper case. It is simply less ambiguous: i) if you use a capital letter for something like Ctrl+A it might be misinterpreted as Ctrl+(Shift+A) and ii) upper case I can be confused while i cannot. Conversely, lower case l (L) can be confused.... so maybe this isn't a very good point.
And having written this, I realize that I have never seen Ctrl+a and always see Ctrl+A. So maybe none of my points are very good.
Sounds like we should take this to meta :)
2:31 PM
@terdon here’s a counter-example:
A: How to copy from CLI without a GUI or a mouse

Stephen KittIn such circumstances, script is very handy: it runs a shell, recording all the output. In your example, before entering the chroot you'd run script temp_file.txt and then sudo enter-chroot etc. On exit from the chroot, you'd exit again to exit script, and you'd find the text you wanted (al...

@StephenKitt Well, I said I have never see it. I don't tend to read your answers :P
And looking through my posts containing “Ctrl” shows I am rather inconsistent in this matter...
I suspect I will find the same in mine.
Hmm. No, I seem to pretty consistently use caps.
A: Clear / erase a mistyped password in a terminal

terdonAnother choice: Ctrl+W : Delete everything till the first white space, basically, delete the last word. Genrally useful shortcuts (don't work for password prompts): Ctrl+A : Go to the beginning of the line Ctrl+E : Go to the end of the line Ctrl+K : Kill everything from the position of the...

And that is actually ambiguous...
Maybe we can fall back on readline? Control-G in .inputrc means "press the control and g keys at the same time", not "press the control, shift and g keys"
Same in the emacs world with things like M-X or whatever. That means the x key not a capital X
Ah but my Emacs says C-x etc.
Even C-l in the tutorial, with a comment “(That's CONTROL-L, not CONTROL-1.)”
@terdon That's actually convenient because terminals don't distinguish Ctrl+Letter from Ctrl+Shift+Letter.
2:39 PM
@StephenKitt oh.
(Well, not by default, that is.)
@Quasímodo yeah
Oh wow. I only just noticed you have an accent on your i, @Quasímodo!
Yup, many miss that. Luckily for me mentions work even without the accent!
Why, by the way? Why Quasímodo and not Quasimódo?
It's a proparoxytone in my language.
2:44 PM
Really? What language is that?
Portuguese. But oh lord, it's not. I guess the only use of that accent is to make typing harder then :)
Come to Unix.SE /dev/chat! Learn about linguistics, gardening, and cookery!
@Quasímodo That would have been surprising. In Spanish it's Quasimódo as well.
Amazingly that Wikipedia page has an example of a proparoxytone: ”Características”
Yeah, I had to look it up too, and it turns out it's a Greek word! Didn't know it in Greek either :)
2:48 PM
The Greek police are on their way to the UK to confiscate your Greek papers
(I didn’t know the word either, despite English words being overwhelmingly proparoxytonic when possible...)
Huh. Sounds like Quásimódo to me here: pt.forvo.com/word/quasimodo
Ah never mind. That's in English, apparently.
Hmm but the Italian and French ones in that page sound like Quasímodo to my ears though.
@Quasímodo French doesn’t really have tonic accents
(which causes no end of trouble for French people trying to speak languages which do)
@StephenKitt Wow, learning many linguistic things in /dev/chat indeed.
@StephenKitt Yeah. But it sounds like it does unless you pay very close attention. Before living in France, I would have sworn that it is tonic and they tend to stress the last syllable but that isn't actually true.
2:56 PM
Okay, it's settled, the Orthographic Vocabulary of the Portuguese Language says it's Quasímodo.
@terdon according to fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_tonique#Le_cas_du_fran%C3%A7ais there is a mild tonic accent on the last syllable of a syntagma
which matches my experience, as far as I can determine just now
but many French speakers speak in a monotone, or always with the same inflexion, at the level of a sentence
@Quasímodo Ah! Conclusive evidence, at last!
3:14 PM
@StephenKitt Gotta love how there are nice, clear cut rules:
> toutes les syllabes (sauf quelques-unes, parfois)
"all syllables (except some of them, sometimes)" sheesh
@terdon French is an exceptional language ;-)
Yeah, unlike English, for example, that has nice and clear unambiguous rules with narry an exception in sight.
In French, it’s impossible to know all the rules and their exceptions; in English, it’s impossible to know how to pronounce every word.
@StephenKitt At least in French a native should be able to pronounce any word, even new ones they've never seen before, correctly. In English, not a chance.
@terdon my point exactly ;-)
3:17 PM
Yep, I was agreeing.
For those of us not born into French, its pronunciation makes no sense at all, but I understand it seems natural to you guys.
Isn’t that the case for most languages though?
Dunno. Spanish is wonderfully simple: what you see is what you get.
Same with Greek, there is never any question about correct pronunciation: everything is in the spelling.
English is mental.
Dunno which of these is more common though.
one of my favourites
Can't beat that one.
ah yes, and lieutenant
but not in the US :-P
3:19 PM
@StephenKitt Nah, that's fine unless you're British :P
I actually only found out that this is the normal pronunciation in the UK this year! I had always thought you had lieutenant and leftenant, since I'd seen both in print, and you'd pronounce each as written.
The crazy thing is that even though French pronunciation is largely consistent, even many French people forget the rules, and you end up with “merçi” for example...
Ah, what's the rule there? The i doesn't make the c hard?
So there's no need for the cedille?
@terdon e, i, y make the preceding consonants soft, so merci, ici etc.
yeah, that
but it’s common to see them written explicitly as merçi, içi, which is a sort of slow slide towards mersi, issi
after all, ç looks like s
3:23 PM
Now why did you write issi and not isi?
Is that your English or your French?
@terdon because “isi” would be pronounced “izi”
Ah, right.
wow it’s insanely hot in Greece just now!
Yeah. I am so effin' jealous!
Can't wait until the 11 when I'm flying over and I get to wallow in sweltering heat.
I am wearing long sleeves and even had a little heater on this morning in London.
Granted, in the kinds of temperatures that would make @Kusalananda complain about the heat, but 18 degrees is cold for me, dammit! And 20 in my room is unpleasant.
Here it’s 15°C in the morning, 20°C in the afternoon, alternating rain and sunshine
My garden is a jungle
3:37 PM
@StephenKitt Woah, really? In August? That's awful!
Apparently not the first time I've been surprised!
Jul 20 '18 at 10:47, by terdon
Huh. I wouldn't have thought Lyon was that cold. OK.
@terdon at least we haven’t had too much flooding
1 hour later…
4:53 PM
@StephenKitt sounds awesome
I'm not crazy about rain, but I could do without 35 degrees
And can we agree that "proparoxytone" should refer to some kind of molecule rather than a linguistic concept?
I could do with 35 degrees right now.
5:24 PM
35 C sounds like a good start to me :)
you must live in Phoenix
Because he rises from the ashes?
Shit, that was in bad taste. Too many fires around at the moment. :/
This is the view from my parent's house in Arhens right now. There's a fire nearby:
And, of course, my geeky self couldn't help but see:
6:02 PM
@terdon sorry to hear/see! That looks a bit like rain coming down from an ash cloud?!? Is Arhens a new or alternate spelling of Athens (the only city I know in Greece)
6:19 PM
snort. Um, yeah, let's go with "alternative spelling" and not with "terdon can't spell his home town".
lol! well, Google was coming up with it, so I didn't know :)
Arhens sounds Dutch to me
Yeah, there's a city named Arhens, I think, but my only connection to it is that the letters t and r are next to each other on my keyboard...
Hmm no. I must have imagined it. Could have sworn there was something called "Arhens" or very close to it.
@JeffSchaller That's something, at least :)

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