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1:48 AM
sigh nothing like running out to buy a 2.5mm wrench only to find out you needed a 7/64". Can we pick a unit of measurement already?
 
 
7 hours later…
8:43 AM
@JeffSchaller well, we have...
 
8:54 AM
@jesse_b the Europlug is rated to 2.5 A, yes. But the sockets are a different matter entirely. There's a few variants of them, and I'm not sure about all, but e.g. the Schuko socket (type F) that's common in Germany and up here is rated for 16 A. And while it seems I have 10 A breakers for the sockets around the walls, 16 A breakers aren't uncommon at all.
(IIRC it's usually 10 A for lighting and 16 A otherwise, but the wall sockets and lights are on the same breaker here, so maybe that's why. I wonder if there's some regulation thing.)
And for some reason, this must be one of my favourite Wikipedia pages (at least based on how often I remember having opened it): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
@AndrasDeak real circuit breakers do both, they trip from heat (for slight overcurrent over an extended time) and with a magnetic trigger (for excessive overcurrent)
 
huh
 
there's actually a pretty nice picture of one of those in Wikipedia too: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker , and if you want to see more about them look for e.g. Big Clive's (bigclivedotcom) videos on youtube: youtube.com/results?search_query=clive+circuit+breaker
And well. If you like horror flicks, then this: Inside a fake un-trippable circuit breaker. The title kinda spoils the plot though, but nightmare fuel it is. (Also includes the cozy intro about breakers)
 
uggggh
 
... a few variants of mains sockets in use in Europe of course, not that every single country would have a mish-mash.
 
9:12 AM
@ilkkachu that reminds me of one of my favourite infographics
and no, you're not suddenly colourblind :P
 
@AndrasDeak Oh wow, that's cool. I mean, it's absolutely insane, but cool to see all together!
 
@terdon so can you tell what kind of plug they use in Russia? :D
 
hmm. Why's are the alien and the others to the right in the same group as the three mouthless ones? They don't even look the same.
Also, that would seem to say that China uses the UK plug, which I don't exactly believe just like that.
HK might.
 
@AndrasDeak Do they really use the same as the UK!? Wow. yeah, read that wrong
I've never seen that oval one on the bottom left that is apparently used all over the Americas.
 
well, not that this is so much better, and it has three-color stripes for China, so yeah. I can't read the colors there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
9:25 AM
@ilkkachu They might, actually. There was a lot of UK influence in China. They had a very nice system where the UK would sell them drugs (and had a whole campaign to get as much of the country addicted to opium as possible) in exchange for tea.
And when the Chinese started objecting, they went to war.
 
yep, one of the things that show how civilized the Western peoples are/were.
but no, based on the wikipedia map and e.g. this: electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guidance/advice-for-you/… they use something completely different. Except that one is maybe compatible with a US plug
@AndrasDeak wow, that's a first I've heard. LWN has an article, but subscribers only or wait a week: lwn.net/Articles/853717
 
sounds like a bit of a dumpster fire
 
 
2 hours later…
11:27 AM
I have now paid the Imperial Measurement tax so that I can own a 7/64" hex wrench.
although my sarcasm appears to be anachronistic, since Wikipedia tells me the standards were first defined in 1824.
 
I have to admit that it boggles my mind that anyone would think that 7/64" is a useful unit of measurement.
is that "seven sixtyfourths of an inch"?
 
@terdon You would be shocked to hear how machinists and tradesman measure things in canada/europe
 
I almost crashed my rental car laughing when I was in San Diego a few years ago and it told me "In 4 sevenths of a mile, turn right" or some absurd fraction like that.
 
"1/100th of a mm"
 
you're telling me. I went through 2mm to 3mm and realized I "needed" 2.5mm so it's just ridiculous all around. Yes, 7/64" is exactly the size of this bolt head
 
11:32 AM
@jesse_b Well yes. That makes sense. It's a nice round number and a multiple of 10.
 
well the metric system has a unit for that
 
It's the 4/7 or 3/8ths or whatever that make no sense to me.
 
@terdon "in 3 guffaws, turn left"
 
@jesse_b Ah yes, fair. But it's trivial to convert if the fraction denominator is a multiple of 10
@JeffSchaller Seriously though, is that instantly understandable to you guys? I mean do you just "get" that X/Nths of a mile means Y yards or whatever?
 
I've never heard a mile broken down into any unit smaller than 1/4
 
11:35 AM
If you're not talking about halves or quarters, why not give the distance in yards instead?
 
ditto the 1/4 mile; sometimes the GPS units will say something like "in 300 feet", too
 
And I would say that I long for the metric system when having to choose a wrench/socket but everything is made in china anymore so I have to use metric wrenches anyway
 
maybe you got some sort of Franken-system where it triggers the turn-report in meters but reports it in fractions of a mile??
 
@jesse_b It may have been larger. I don't remember the exact fraction, only that it was not 1/N but something more complicated like "3 fifths" or "7 eighths" or something like that.
 
@terdon they don't have millimeters so they have inverse powers of two on inches
 
11:36 AM
@AndrasDeak that's... the most convoluted description I've heard, but it's absolutely correct :)
 
@AndrasDeak Fair point. You have to use fractions if your smallest unit is an inch.
 
machinists in the US use "tenths", "hundredths", and "thousandths" which admittedly is a much better system
 
Of course, 7/64 is 0.109375...
 
@terdon well, down from inches we have "smidge" and "hair"
 
Presumably, they don't make wrenches with that level of precision so that's actually a 0.1 inch wrench.
@JeffSchaller :)
 
11:39 AM
@terdon If I had a micrometer handy, I'd love to science that, but...
 
I got one of them cheap digital micrometers from the hazard fraught and it still works 3 years later. Pretty amazing for like $7
 
yeah I was just on amazon. apparently for $13 I can get one here tomorrow
or the one below it for $151
 
"feels good in the hand"
 
The question is, if you want something that is 0.1 inches wide (or even 0.109375 inches wide) why is that expressed as "7/64" instead of "0.1"?
 
the primer bulb is going to feel good when it's in my hand and off this chainsaw :|
because the rulers are divided like Andras said, and not with your ridiculously easy 1/10's
 
11:41 AM
Do you guys who are used to this system find 7/64 instantly understandable and clearer than 0.1?
 
I struggle even with the common fractions
 
/64's are less common, but sure
 
"I need the next size up from 5/8ths...which one is that!?"
 
@jesse_b Ah OK. So it isn't confusing to me just because I'm not used to it. I was thinking maybe it's completely natural to you guys who've grown up with it.
 
5/7's! that's where terdon's supposed to turn! lol
 
11:43 AM
hah
 
:)
 
I probably would know it better if I had used it more but like I said metric fasteners are way more common here than SAE so I rarely use them
Even US car manufacturers often assemble with metric fasteners
 
the air filter bolts were 8mm but the primer bolts were 7/64"; maybe one or the other got replaced before I owned it -- which was the source of all my heartache last night
 
I love that (possibly apocryphal) story about how when the Brits and French were building the tunnel under the British Channel, when they finally met in the middle, the two tunnels couldn't be joined because one side had been using metric and the other imperial.
 
"we were using magnetic north instead of true north!"
or were they half a horse's ass off?
 
11:45 AM
@JeffSchaller What's that in 64ths?
 
I recently bought a power rack for my gym and it has huge hardware on it. The rack is made in china and the hardware measured 23.9mm on my caliper so I bought a 24mm wrench and it's sloppy. I then bought a 15/16th wrench and it too is sloppy. Turns out 24mm wrenches are the exact same size as 15/16ths
 
Ah, shame, I found a site claiming it was a hoax: hoaxes.org/af_database/permalink/chunnel_blunder
 
@terdon probably about 3 hogsheads per hour per inch
 
Which does make sense, it's such a ridiculous mistake to make.
 
@terdon or the Brits were boring one lane and the French the other? :)
@jesse_b 23.9mm?!? now you need an actual (...looks it up...) micrometer wrench set?
"I used my micrometer to measure the micrometers"
 
11:50 AM
I'm in a meeting; has anyone mentioned that Mars orbiter yet? :P
 
The rep website says it's 15/16ths but I just don't like their tolerances
might have to super glue a strip of aluminum can to the wrench to shim it up
 
@AndrasDeak makes me feel a bit better about my weed-whacker failures, so thanks! :)
@jesse_b or to the bolts, so that they're a reasonable size
 
true
the wrench was like $8 :/
 
@AndrasDeak Ahahahaha, I had forgotten about that one. Brilliant!
> The primary cause of this discrepancy was that one piece of ground software supplied by Lockheed Martin produced results in a United States customary unit,
contrary to its Software Interface Specification (SIS), while a second system, supplied by NASA, expected those results to be in SI units, in accordance with the SIS. Specifically, software that calculated the total impulse produced by thruster firings produced results in pound-force seconds.
The trajectory calculation software then used these results – expected to be in newton seconds (incorrect by a factor of 4.45)[15] – to update th
 
things like that make me wish we had some kind of enhanced AI overlay system so you could tag those bolts with a big red flashing warning for the next guy (or yourself in a few years)
 
11:54 AM
@JeffSchaller have you seen the overlay systems they have now?
 
@jesse_b nope, just my imagination
 
I saw a video some guy made where he can put his camera over his home network and it has little pop-up labels for what all the ports go to and things like that, looks pretty cool
 
I could see some sort of QR-code hack where it goes to an image URL. definitely useful
 
Of course I can't find it now
 
 
1 hour later…
1:07 PM
so boring afternoon, poooooww
 
LEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOY AFSHIN
 
how are you jesse
 
sick. I keep getting some sort of stomach bug
 
ahhhh, me too, I mean I'm sick too
sore throat for 2days, feeling maybe I got Corona
so saaad
hope you will become fine very soon
 
@terdon because there are only 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 notches on any ruler; same logic applies here s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/images.linnlive.com/…
@jesse_b that could also be the plague, just saying
hope you both get well soon
 
1:11 PM
I have a ruler that measures in 64ths
 
I mean "rather than 0.1, 0.2 etc"
 
@AndrasDeak hey Andras, thanks a lot, I hope it was only my sickness but.... 🤕
 
On the bright side, if you do have covid and all you get is a sore throat, that's probably a good thing.
 
comparatively speaking
I don't want to bring down everyone with plague facts :D
 
Eh, if someone told me I could get through it with a sore throat, I would love to have it and have at least a basic level of immunity.
 
1:16 PM
OK, one plague fact: a while back it wa said that 30% of people with the so-called long covid (chronic fatigue, shortness of breath, cognitive issues) were asymptomatic or with mild symptoms.
 
wait, how is (3 symptoms) ... "asymptomatic"?
 
@JeffSchaller asymptomatic when acute
 
I'm no biologist, so go slow :)
 
not catching it if possible is still a better option
 
ahhh, so initially no (or mild) COVID symptoms but then long-term effects?
 
1:17 PM
yup
but I don't have a reference for that one
 
I had a similar discussion this morning (regarding kids & COVID) -- how hard it must be to declare "long-term effects" when it's barely been a year
I just assume that most studies are a bit more rigorous (lengthier, and some decent number of control vs subjects)
 
@AndrasDeak Hence my specifying that I would only have a sore throat and nothing else :)
 
1:35 PM
@terdon more likely it was 3/4 or 7/8. And well, those sort of make sense. Almost. "One half" is quite natural, and "One quarter" is a logical next step. But the in-between values, with the denominator changing at every step so that it stays normalized, hrrr.
If they went 1/64, 2/64, 3/64, 4/64, etc. it'd be fine. But since it's 1/64, 1/32, 3/64, 1/16, etc., it ... seems a bit difficult.
 
I don't know whether to blame an over-zealous math teacher who wanted the fractions reduced, or the ruler-makers who wanted to label the 8th's marks by the /8th's
 
@AndrasDeak there was also a "fun" little piece of news here a while back that a study (in the Lancet, no less) had found a third of corona-patients had psychological/neurological issues six months after. Mostly anxiety and mood disorders, and there was nothing about the why, but detectable and diagnosed issues anyway.
 
@ilkkachu It was definitely not 3/4, that one is natural to me. 7/8ths maybe, that doesn't tell me much but I think it was something even weirder.
 
if it was something with a prime denominator then, yeah, wow.
 
@terdon For what it's worth I normally just shut off the audio on my GPS because I rarely find it useful. I just want to see an arrow and a distance in text that I can quickly glance at any time I want
 
1:44 PM
you should have turned back and recorded it on the next attempt just to make sure :D
 
@jesse_b Oh yes, me too. But I was driving in an unfamiliar car, in an unfamiliar city of an unfamiliar country, so I wanted all the help I could get :)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:39 PM
why doesn't echo recognize --
 
$ echo --
--
works for me
 
that actually is it not working ;)
> The echo utility shall not recognize the "--" argument in the manner specified by Guideline 10 of XBD Utility Syntax Guidelines; "--" shall be recognized as a string operand.
 
3:58 PM
of course, the encylopedic:
856
A: Why is printf better than echo?

Stéphane ChazelasBasically, it's a portability (and reliability) issue. Initially, echo didn't accept any option and didn't expand anything. All it was doing was outputting its arguments separated by a space character and terminated by a newline character. Now, someone thought it would be nice if we could do th...

> On those echo implementations that support options, there's generally no support of a -- to mark the end of options (the echo builtin of some non-Bourne-like shells do, and zsh supports - for that though), so for instance, it's difficult to output "-n" with echo in many shells.
 
echo makes a pretty good weed wacker @JeffSchaller
I don't think printf has ever wacked a single weed
 
@jesse_b also the only UNIX-y car (though I heard it's been discontinued)
 
the toyota echo? that was my first car
 
and as usual, I'm decades behind:
> manufactured in Japan by Toyota from 1999 until 2005, when it was replaced by the Belta.
 
that thing was unkillable and believe me I tried
 
4:03 PM
@jesse_b maybe I should buy one and put a string line at the end of the transmission
 
your weedwacker probably has more horsepower
 
4:28 PM
@JeffSchaller The Belta Echo?
Belta Charlie Echo
 
@Kusalananda The Belta Echo :)
 
 
3 hours later…
axk
7:49 PM
Can someone recommend a good article describing the linux networking stack? In particular I want to know when the kernel has finished initializing, right before it runs init what components to run networking over wifi are still missing assuming the drivers for the wifi are statically compiled into the kernel or is it just missing configuration of the netowrking interface?
or there are some other user-space components loaded by init that sit between the networking in the kernel and user processing doing TCP/IP communication?
user processes* doing TCP/IP communication
 
That... sounds like it could be a good question for the main site, @axk. Your "in particular..." at least, which seems specific enough.
Sorry, I can't recommend an article because I don't know the first thing about this.
 
 
1 hour later…
axk
9:13 PM
@terdon, thanks, will post a question
 
@ilkkachu Chinese sockets are essentially the same as Australian ones, but upside down. I don't think that map is right at all
 
@MichaelHomer fwiw it has US sockets upside down as well although the code here allows for them to be installed either way
hospitals, government buildings, and most industrial applications require that the ground prong be up though
 
@jesse_b yeah, I gather there's no actual requirement which way round you put them, but they're invariably the way shown in the picture here & in Australia. In China it's the same socket, but usually the other way up, which is surprisingly off-putting. Everything just plugs straight in though with no adapter
 
@MichaelHomer are your sockets recessed into the outlet like european ones?
 
not usually
 
9:19 PM
interestingly we have a plug here that I bet would work in NZ
the NEMA 10-50
I think the european plugs being recessed is a really good idea. A lot of electrocutions happen from a plug that gets partially unplugged and something falls between it and the wall causing a short
children have even been electrocuted just from unplugging them because their fingers can be small enough to get in there while the prongs are still making contact with the conductors
ah the australian plug will fit in a NEMA 10-50 outlet but the 10-50 plug wont fit in an australian outlet because the pins are a bit bigger
 
It looks a bit fat for a normal socket, maybe one of the high-amp ones
 
Yeah it's used for like welding machines, plasma cutters, etc
@MichaelHomer: Do you have separate outlets for equipment like that or do they just plug into standard outlets
 
10:05 PM
@jesse_b yup
of course this makes them really bulky, but it's worth it
 

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