/dev/chat - 2019-12-13

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3:01 AM

If you just got a bunch of announcer badges:

34

Q: Missing publicist badge?

I've had a link on my webpage to one of my StackOverflow answers for a long time now. For fun, I track it with Google Analytic events, so I know for sure that I've received more than 1000 clicks. Yet I haven't even gotten a booster badge for it. Here's a screenshot for the click events from Goog...

support bug status-completed publicity-badges

3:12 AM

Many (29?) pages of badge awards: unix.stackexchange.com/help/badges/54?page=1 ... maybe a Meta.UL posy is warranted?

3 hours later…

6:18 AM

More bad news in the UK. Seriously, some good news would be nice.

I mysteriously got a bunch of Announcer badges, all at once, and 6 of them for U&L.

1 hour later…

7:48 AM

-1

Q: I'm being attacked by a Click Robot cycling addresses

Edit 1 hour later 1,000 clicks Just got 1,000 clicks after 1 hour: I hardly get badges and U & L tonight in an hour a robot is creating like 6 of them. I appreciate the new hat but it is distracting: To make matters worse whilst typing this question I got a yearling badge which might rea...

8:19 AM

@Kusalananda Oh, I see. Weird. Thanks for the link.

Oh, I see that's the same thing Jeff was talking about.

I thought SE had throttling mechanisms for this sort of thing.

8:42 AM

@FaheemMitha Now also found the real reason, so I posted an answer.

9:04 AM

@Kusalananda I see. So these badges were awarded because SE "fixed" something?

@FaheemMitha Yes, exactly.

@Kusalananda Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

9:30 AM

Unexpected errors arrive unexpectedly: It was not possible to perform this tag search at this time due to an unexpected error.

(on the main site)

(now fixed)

1 hour later…

10:53 AM

It was never going to be easy. The cause still continues
https://twitter.com/tribunemagazine/status/1205292303709024256

4 hours later…

2:29 PM

I policed my own comments just now. Terdon would be...slightly less disappointed than usual. ;)

2:40 PM

:-)

2:53 PM

Wat it do @Kusalananda

Oh, nothing special. Recovering after a long day of teaching shell scripting in Stockholm.

Nice. Although you spend most of your days teaching shell scripting to guys like me :p

@Jesse_b I prefer answering random questions here. Trying to pass on too many concepts in one go is tiring.

@Kusalananda Yeah I've given a few classes on bash and it's always exciting for me at first but then as I start doing it I dig too far into each concept and realize there just isn't enough time

Especially when you get stuck with one or two people having issues with concepts such as "variable".

3:06 PM

I could spend a whole day talking about parameter expansion

@Jesse_b Want to read my slides? I might want to update them for the future.

@Kusalananda yes!

dropbox.com/sh/m0vc71xhw7anq2u/AABA1ll6gnC90uWrrBPQ1sRDa?dl=0

I'm not sure the target audience but it may be worth mentioning something like:

> All created variables disappear when the script terminates. * Unless explicitly exported

3:23 PM

(hold on, became busy)

3:34 PM

@Jesse_b The target audience was Ph.D. students in Life Sciences, i.e. biotech- and biomed-related sciences.

Most of them had no previous programming experience (unfortunately). This was the last day of three. The previous days were all about introducing the command line and some basic commands.

Some of the material is repetition of that (globbing, for example).

Yeah it's probably best not to include any more caveats than necessary then :p

They did fairly well actually. I did quite a lot of showing things live in a terminal.

The slides are way better than the ones I put together though. I may use them if I have to give another class :p (As long as you don't mind)

@Jesse_b I would not mind if you used material from them.

Are they open source? :p

3:42 PM

I'm state funded. All code etc. that I produce for work is open source.

Hey, thanks for pointing to U&L! I was scrolling through wondering "I wonder if the 'real life people' will be in the company, or if he'll mention U&L".... and there it was!

"answers from experts (or at least real people)" :)

There's no "source" for the slides though. Did them in Google docs.

@JeffSchaller :-)

3 hours later…

6:42 PM

To Berxit or not to Berxit. That caused Labour the election

I saw the word trending last night

The practically correct thing to do is to remain in EU and reform it.
The politically correct thing to do is to accept the referendum.
Labour wanted to give people a second referendum to decide again, but people are tired of Brexit.

Breakdown: Corbyn's Labour Suffer Huge Election Loss Over Brexit

Neoliberalism party also lost seats. It is more about Berxit than being moderate or too far left

It is also hard for Labour and Corbyn to work against the smears and lies spread by the main stream media.

7:00 PM

boring

user image

2

Be politically awaken, plz

@Tim that's no fun.

@JeffSchaller: What do you think about the tesla truck

@Jesse_b I'm ... impressed. I never throw stones at designers because it's a skill I don't have. But I wish Tesla success at making a difference for our (future on our) planet.

I think it's a troll

7:05 PM

Do I think a 5-yr old drew it? Yes :)

it's just a prototype though and they often look outlandish

Labour did well in yesterday's UK election. They got more votes (in absolute numbers) than when they won in 2005. Unfortunately, that did not help.

@Kusalananda: no love for my posix compliant tee solution? :(

@Jesse_b outlandish might be the right word; I saw a reference to Mars in connection to it

@Kusalananda That brings up electoral system, last but not least

7:06 PM

@Jesse_b I'm not overly fond of writing directly to /dev/tty

sulks in corner

Electoral system can't keep up with mobilization of population, and should be retired, IMO

@Tim If the same system was to be used in Sweden, our labour equivalent would have 80% of the seats. But we don't so they have about 30%.

I am not for electoral system, even if it favors what I favor

Makes voting complicated and unpredictable

@Jesse_b There there, at least it's POSIX compliant.

(if POSIX even mentions /dev/tty, which I've forgotten if it does or not)

7:11 PM

@Kusalananda But most importantly, it works

pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/basedefs/…

@Jesse_b It does mention /dev/tty! pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/…

@Jesse_b :-)

I got slowed down by trying to do a word search.

rev is not POSIX though. ;-)

ping probably isn't either

or tee

or stackexchange.com

@Jesse_b pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/tee.html

nice

7:46 PM

@Jesse_b pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/nice.html

2

@Kusalananda lol

8:41 PM

Anyone know where I can get a dict file that includes only common english words?

nvm something like this will probably work for me

JButryn-MAC-01:~ root# touch /usr/share/dict/mywords
touch: /usr/share/dict/mywords: Operation not permitted

9:07 PM

@Kusalananda: Have you run into this issue with your mac?

@Jesse_b I'm looking at it now. Hold on.

@Jesse_b On macOS, / is basically read-only. If you check the mount output, you'll see that all writable location are mounted on /System/Volumes/Data. I would suggest that you use /opt/share/dict instead (that is also available under /System/Volumes/Data) or /usr/local/share/dict (likewise). It's some clever use of stackable filesystems.

[desktop] % touch /opt/file
[desktop] % ls /System/Volumes/Data/opt
file
[desktop] % ls /opt
file

It's a way for Apple to protect the macOS base system. Users are not supposed to tweak the base system, so they provide a writable "layer". That allows them to reliably update the base system underneath the users' "view" of the system.

The /opt and /usr/local hierarchies are for you to write system-wide stuff into.

I want to put it in /usr/share/dict/ and I am now on a mission to override apple's protection

if I have to disable SIP to do this I'm leaving it off

It's gotten incredibly cumbersome since catalina

Well, it's your machine. You do whatever you feel is right.

9:30 PM

I want to light it on fire

sudo burnit --totheground

Mac should either respect root access or create their own underlying operating system to run on

9:50 PM

I wonder why people ask for "one-liners"

they must not know about scripts

10:03 PM

@Jesse_b I believe I have pondered about that too.

Maybe they think "one-liners" are somehow quicker?

That could be it. It's not altogether bad logic as a one liner is usually less commands

I suspect they just have some animosity towards shell scripts and think executing commands on the command line are somehow not the same

Sep 22 '17 at 17:47, by Kusalananda

@AaronHall That goes for any language you don't understand. It is perfectly possible to write clear and easy to understand Perl code. If everyone could just please stop trying to craft "one-liners" with it all the time.

Jan 19 '17 at 11:15, by Kusalananda

Don't get me started on "one-liners".... "Oh, this is a handy one-liner! I'll put it in a script so that I don't lose it." (Creates script with one single line of cryptic bash code)

Ah, here's the one I remember writing.

Jun 13 '18 at 20:55, by Kusalananda

@Kiwy No, I mean that I dislike "one-liners" for the sake of forcing a beautiful script into a single line. It makes it feel and look sloppy. If a command requires multiple lines, then let it have multiple lines, for example in a (temporary) script. I'm thinking in particular about all those poor awk scripts, and the odd sed script, but also various shell loops and other things that people request saying "I just want a (quick and dirty) one-liner for doing XXX".

I guess starring old messages doesn't make them show back up

bash <<EOF
echo foo
echo bar
EOF

compromise?

@Jesse_b A fairly good compromise.

It's technically a one liner (the bash call) with a redirection.

it's a one liner that spans multiple lines. It's almost like putting them into a script and executing that :p

10:12 PM

@Jesse_b Yes.

If this was prompted by the question I think it was, that user should just enable quotas.

Actually it wasn't but I just saw that one. I saw a question in the reopen queue that was asking for a one liner

The user in the following question has been very bad at letting us know what they are doing (but we've started to work it out now). I'm still a bit stumped at what is causing their issue. I'm fairly certain it's something about the setup of the local or remote system that hasn't been mentioned yet.

0

Q: how to implement a wait until prompt appears before exection of cmds?

How can I wait until a shell prompt appears before further commands get executed (in a bash script e.g?) on some hosts I can do ssh user@host echo "test"; and it would login, and when ready execute echo "test" - but it looks like it doesn't work on every host. I would like to wait for the # or $ ...

linux bash ssh gnu-screen

That one is out of my league though. I was just thinking how would you even know what a user is doing with disk. I know you can find files owned by the user but what if they have permission to change ownership or what if they modify an existing file that belongs to another user to make it significantly larger

The title of that question is also totally misleading.

You're referring to the other question still. I see.

Yeah. I bailed out of the prompt question a while ago though. I don't really understand what OP is trying to do either

10:18 PM

I'll not say more about that I think. It's pretty clear that a user is filling up disk, and that this is an issue. Quotas would handle that.

Yeah I also get irritated with the "Lets say if we cannot do X because of Y" responses

If there is a legitimate reason you cannot do something it shouldn't be that hard to explain what it is

My theory is that OP thinks there is some simple command that can be run to check for it (Hence they are asking for a one liner) and that setting up quotas will be harder

10:43 PM

Yeah, I was right. unix.stackexchange.com/a/557140/116858

10:55 PM

I am comparing using rsync to transfer files to external hard drive connected locally via USB 2 and remotely via wifi+USB2 (connect the external hard drive using USB2 to another computer in the same wifi as my local computer).
How much times slower if I use the second way?
I transfer 25M bytes, rsync shows USB2 approach has speed 18M bytes/sec while wifi+USB2 approach has speed 1M bytes/sec. Are the two figures about right?

I prefer wifi+usb2 over usb2 because my one of local computer's usb ports is broken, and the one that is working is used by my external wifi adapter

USB2 has a theoretical speed of 60 MB/s, so 25 MB/s seems correct for writing directly to a USB2 drive (or possibly a bit on the slow side).

$ sudo rsync -a --delete --stats -h /tmp/tt '/media/t/My Passport/tmp/'
Number of files: 22 (reg: 13, dir: 9)
Number of created files: 22 (reg: 13, dir: 9)
Number of deleted files: 0
Number of regular files transferred: 13
Total file size: 27.51M bytes
Total transferred file size: 27.51M bytes
Literal data: 27.51M bytes
Matched data: 0 bytes
File list size: 0
File list generation time: 0.001 seconds
File list transfer time: 0.000 seconds
Total bytes sent: 27.52M
Total bytes received: 314
sent 27.52M bytes received 314 bytes 18.35M bytes/sec

1 MB/s is 75% of the maximum 802.11b data rate.

So that seems correct too.

$ sudo rsync -a --delete --stats -h test 't@olive:/media/t/"My Passport"/tmp/'
Number of files: 22 (reg: 13, dir: 9)
Number of created files: 20 (reg: 12, dir: 8)
Number of deleted files: 1 (reg: 1)
Number of regular files transferred: 12
Total file size: 27.51M bytes
Total transferred file size: 27.51M bytes
Literal data: 27.51M bytes
Matched data: 0 bytes
File list size: 0
File list generation time: 0.001 seconds
File list transfer time: 0.000 seconds
Total bytes sent: 27.52M
Total bytes received: 318

Thanks. I am trying to back up 300GB files on my local computer to the external hard drive. It takes 6 hours when using local usb2.0 approach. If wifi+usb2.0 approach is 18 times slower, is it correct it is going to take 6*18 hours?

That sounds right.

If this is something you'd been thinking of doing often (like hourly backups), the first backup will take a long time. If further backups are done incrementally, they will be a lot faster.

If you are intent on using rsync, look into using --link-dest for doing further backups later.

Personally, I would (and I am) using restic for backups.

That further reduces the data transferred by deduplicating it.

Or borgbackup for that matter.

11:06 PM

They are on my todo list since I heard from you a while ago. I haven't tried them out yet.

Neither creates backups that you can actually browse (they create a sort of "backup repository"), but both allows you to restore files from a "backup snapshot" (which is what a single backup is called).

Not being able to browse is kind of inconvenient

isn't it

restoring takes time

does it?

Restoring everything would take time. Just fetching a single file would be quick.

Or a single directory.

Not being able to browse, do you mean still allows to traverse into any directory using cd, and see what files under it?

without restoring?

Not being able to browse, do you mean only not being able to open a nondirectory file?

You could ask the software to list the contents for a particular snapshot, and even compare snapshots to see what files where changed and how much was added or removed in a particular snapshot, but that would be through using the restic or borgbackup commands.

Usually, backups is for archiving. When you actually need to use the backup, you probably know what you're looking for. Then it's just a matter to restore the file from the latest backup snapshot, and if it's not there, try the slightly older one etc.

11:13 PM

Thanks.

I'm using restic to back up two macOS machines and three OpenBSD machines to the same backup repository. That repository is about 130 GB big, in total. The combined size of the files, if I was to check out every backup snapshot separately, would be several TB.

Using the same backup repository means a large file on one of my macOS machines which is also present on one or two of my OpenBSD machines would only be stored once.

Does deduplication slow down backup? How much does it slow down compared to not deduplicate?

Do the two tools back up several TB as 130GB for you? That is quite a lot saving of space. If I don't have duplicated files, do the two deduplication backup tools still save space?

Omkar the AWK Ninja

How are you guys doing today?

sad

how about u

@OmkartheAWKNinja 'BEGIN{print "I am fine", $1,$2,$3,"?"}'

11:21 PM

@Tim Possibly a little bit. But it also speeds things up when you don't actually have to transfer data.

@Tim As I said, that's if I wanted to check out each saved backup separately (as if I did a full backup every single time).

@Tim You are always sad, have you considered trying psychedelics?

Omkar the AWK Ninja

just bored.. Nothing to do on Friday night

@Tim Also, a file does not have to be exactly the same as another file for deduplication to be effective. restic, at least, will look at chunks of files to see if separate chunks are already stored in the backup repository.

@Kusalananda by "full backup", do you mean copy without deduplication, e.g. by cp?

@Tim Exactly.

11:24 PM

@Kusalananda I can imagine that takes more time to find out deduplication. Not sure how much time it takes to deduplicate compared to how much it doesn't have to transfer

@Jesse_b I can't afford any. You can buy them legally in Denvor, correct?

I never have thought about trying any either

@Tim There is a bit of extra data that has to be transferred back and forth for the deduplication to work, but it's just hashes of data, so it's not much. Instead of just theorising, you could try it. You don't have to back up your whole machine at once, just try it on a small-ish directory.

psychedelic mushrooms have been decriminalized but that doesn't mean they are "legal"

Here magic mushrooms are legal if you eat wild ones straight out of the ground, but not if you pick them first

@Tim And I'm sure both restic and borgbackup will look fiddly to work with at first (restic is the saner of the two IMO, but borgbackup also provides compression).

I am sad because the coorporate media tries to smear Bernie and Cenk using any possible chance they can. No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes in the past. As long as they correct their mistakes, they should be fine

11:29 PM

@Tim I think it's really unhealthy to focus on things like that so much. I'm not a religious person but one of my favorite quotes is:

> God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

Bernie has the best judgment throughout his political career. Yet his past was not perfect either. The media is way more lenient with his opponents

I'll be back when the room doesn't do politics again.

I can't vote while you can. If I can convert a trumpster, that is a victory

Okay. I will stop. Sorry

The only time I ever voted was for Kusalananda and Jeff to become mods

Although I think not in that order

@MichaelHomer do you mean legal to pick them using mouth, but not using hand?

11:38 PM

Interesting point. There would be a period between them coming out of the ground and you swallowing them in which you would technically be in possession of them

@Jesse_b Thanks for helping me realize the difference between legalize and decriminalize

Medial marijuana should legalized

@Tim You're not allowed to possess them, prepare them, or grow them, but you can consume them

Eating wild mushrooms is... not a good idea, though

Every year I see a bunch of people on my facebook going hunting for those morel(?) mushrooms. They seem like a cult

The people that are into that are REALLY into it

@MichaelHomer That seems strange?

I think that's actually the law for all drugs though. I've never heard of anyone being charged for taking a drug, only possessing it

I'm no lawyer though, or even a credible person

11:43 PM

I have never thought about trying any of those things you suggested.
I saw some videos where marijuana helps to calm down patients and veterans, and relieves their mental and physical pains

That changes my view on some drugs

If magic mushrooms can do similar, why not legalize them?

On the other hand, regular medicines are very expensive for nonrich people

I also change to agree that taking any drug is a public health issue, and should be decriminalized

especially after reading about Hunter Biden and people of color

Well that didn't take long

@Tim It's not a deliberate carve-out, just how things lined up

Are you in the US @MichaelHomer?

no

I feel like you've already told me that before :p

Have you read about his profile? @Jesse_b

11:52 PM

@Tim I looked at it a few minutes ago and didn't see a location listed

Maybe that has been taken down

My profile has never had anything in it

very sneaky sir

Your profile said you are not CIA.

Still no autobiographer badge :(

11:55 PM

@MichaelHomer: I found you :P

michael.homer.[hidden]

Damn I hope everything is okay where you are

Yes, I used to be on the board of Palm and I died in 2009

?

Michael J. Homer (February 24, 1958 – February 1, 2009) was an American electronics and computer industry executive who played major roles in the development of the personal computer, mobile devices and the Internet. == Life and career == Homer was born in San Francisco on February 24, 1958 and was awarded a bachelor's degree at the University of California, Berkeley.He was hired by Apple Computer in 1982, where he served as the technology adviser to the firm's chief executive, John Sculley. He followed with a position as marketing vice president at GO Corp., an early pioneer in creating software...

Oh no I found your account on another site and it lists your country

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