/dev/chat - 2018-11-18

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user141350

7:28 AM

To all those who downvoted my question "What is Umask in Linux":

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/479452/what-is-umask-in-linux

The question was already answered and the answerer (Stephen) was awarded bounty.

Till the answer was given the question was heavily edited (above 35 edits - I don't recall when I edited a question so many times) and I sometimes edited it after some "harsh" comments, some of which I found sarcastic (by G-Man).

I invested hours on trying to improve this question on this topic that I learned about for the first time and which I find more complicated and co…

user141350

7:51 AM

Well maybe not the second but fourth or something of that sort out of hundreds of questions (above 500 I assume, in various SE sites).

11:23 AM

@Fabby Managed to get openvas working in Debian....

user141350

11:59 AM

@RuiFRibeiro I've seen part of your comment as appeared to me in preview; I think it's good you removed it. No one has to respond and I suggest you won't determine for other people here if they became harassed from my comment or not...

12:09 PM

Hello everyone

@RuiFRibeiro Cool!

Hi again, @PrabhjotSingh. Are you at home today? I'm going out now, but maybe we can talk later?

@PrabhjotSingh Hello alone!

:D ;-)

@PrabhjotSingh Are there many examples of large companies that fail?

@FaheemMitha How's your mum doing?

12:19 PM

@Fabby The situation is unchanged right now. Thanks for asking. Going to the hospital now.

@Fabby You're online on a Sunday?

@FaheemMitha Needed to download dad's thermostat manual...

(Batteries needed replacing, and there was only an installation manual, which: You guessed it:

does not provide information on how to change the ~~fucking~~ batteries

(sorry: a bit miffed now...)

@Fabby You read manuals? ;-P

12:38 PM

@RuiFRibeiro The longest manual I've ever read was Oracle 5...

If you print out all the books I've ever read next to one another,

@RuiFRibeiro I'd say: more than half the circumference of a football field.

:P ;-)

12:55 PM

@Fabby I do not reall seeing such collection of proprieraty paper manuals since Xenix days

@FaheemMitha yes, I m home. Sure, talk to you later.

@RuiFRibeiro Mostly PDF nowadays, but if you would print them all out, ... football, etc...

@Fabby Yeah, pdfs....

@Fabby Hola. +1 for Q, +1for A. unix.stackexchange.com/questions/482327/…

@Fabby Was in a party yesterday. Mostly ex-expats and filipino wives.... but lots of good red wine.

12:59 PM

@PrabhjotSingh Thanks! I thought that one would attract many more upvotes, but I have another one in the HNQ at #4 and that was a simple one.

38

A: How to make sure I'm not using any proprietary software?

vrms (Virtual Richard M. Stallman) to the rescue: sudo apt install vrms vrms and you'll get something like: Non-free packages installed on computer-name app-shortname1 Application long name 1 app-shortname2 Application long name 2 app-shortname3 ...

That's just a prayer to the god of Stallman...

:D

@Fabby I can't upvote because of no askubuntu.com account.

Some sites can't be viewed anonymously on startpage.com

@Fabby I love to hear Gracias.

@PrabhjotSingh No opvote needed

@PrabhjotSingh I know: these are the ones to be avoided as the plague.

@PrabhjotSingh ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਧੰਨਵਾਦ? ;-)

Because:

12 mins ago, by Fabby

@PrabhjotSingh Thanks! I thought that one would attract many more upvotes, but I have another one in the HNQ at #4 and that was a simple one.

1:16 PM

@Fabby Killed me again.

@Fabby Did you manage to find it?

@PrabhjotSingh Back now. Trying to do tedious paperwork.

@Fabby vrms isn't exactly reliable.

Both false positive and false negatives.

Depending on your definition of free software, of course.

For throughness, add all software in Debian contrib and non-free. If you aren't using a Debian-based system, that's harder, of course.

@FaheemMitha yeah...

@FaheemMitha but it's a funny answer and the name opf the program is funny all by itself.

@Fabby vrms is funny? How?

1:45 PM

@FaheemMitha Virtual RMS?

@Fabby Oh, that's the funny part?

Shutting down and driving now.

Maybe one day Stallman's mind will be transplanted into an android, and then there will be a real Virtual RMS.

@FaheemMitha That'll still be a real one. Only when his brain will have a running copy in a central CPU in case the android gets destroyed will it be a VRMS!

;-) :D

1 hour later…

3:06 PM

@Fabby I didn't literally mean Stallman's physical brain. I meant like an electronic copy.

Assuming, of course, such a thing is possible. I incline to think not.

@FaheemMitha Yes, If US govt in Nov 2008 hadn't intervened, there could have been a long long list .

You heard Dabhol plant ? This failed long before.

This was in your state. A textbook case of stuck projects.

3:24 PM

@PrabhjotSingh You mean like banks?

@PrabhjotSingh No. But I guess I was thinking more about big international corporations.

Most of them seem to be bulletproof. Perhaps in part because if they are in trouble because of their management's stupidity and greed, the government bails them out with taxpayer money.

If half of what one reads is true, then the US banks behaved really insanely, and caused the financial crisis. And faced no consequences. Per that Matt Damon documentary, for example.

@FaheemMitha Yes. US govt pumped about 250 billion dollars in banks.

3:39 PM

@PrabhjotSingh I wonder where they got that money from.

And a lot of those people should have gone to jail. Instead, it seems they got to take part in goverment. And people call India corrupt.

70 billion dollars in AIG and 70 billion dollars in General motors and Chrysler.

One thing I noticed when living in the US is that most ordinary Americans don't actually have much money.

@FaheemMitha QE. From where they got money.

It's not unusual for people to be living from paycheck to paycheck.

Your city too is flashy. but here 70 percent live in slums.

3:41 PM

Yet their government spends money like there is no tomorrow. Zillions of nuclear missiles, a huge military, military bases all over the world.

@PrabhjotSingh It's not "my city". I just live here. Believe me, I wouldn't be here if I had a choice.

Well, I suppose I do have choices, but not good ones.

@FaheemMitha Dabhol plant has one company Enron. See WP for Enron.

And how is Bombay flashy? It's a mess.

@PrabhjotSingh Yes, I know Enron.

@FaheemMitha Enron failed miserably. I think Westinghouse too in bad condition.

@PrabhjotSingh The Enron thing was a flaming crater. Didn't they commit huge accounting frauds or something?

@FaheemMitha ;-) Not yet ;-)

3:45 PM

@FaheemMitha Yes. During Bush's time.

@PrabhjotSingh I vaguely remember reading about it at the time.

@Fabby Possibly not ever.

And you see IL&FS is too big to fail.

@PrabhjotSingh Is that so?

@FaheemMitha RBI considered it too big to fail, imo.

I stand corrected This was in Oct 2008.chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47665833#47665833

This was whooping $700B. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

@PrabhjotSingh I never really understand how these things work. Did the govt just hand the money over to the banks? Were they required to repay it?

3:56 PM

@FaheemMitha Yes. We can criticize them now. But it was necassary at that time. Govt cant escape their responsibities.

I tell you one funny thing.

During Obama's tenure some companies asked for help. But He said you came here on planes and ask for help. then they ran away.

@FaheemMitha Yes. US govt bacame shareholder in many companies.

@PrabhjotSingh Why was it necessary?

@PrabhjotSingh I don't follow. Came here on planes?

@FaheemMitha Because with failure of banks, no credit to companies was poassible. a Keynesian thing to improve aggragate demand govt must spend.

or in long run we are all dead.

@PrabhjotSingh I've heard that disputed. I don't know what the truth is, of course.

Also, a lot of people write as though the govt just have the banks the money. I hope that is not the case.

@FaheemMitha They went by helicopters. And to ask for help. Obama got irritated from this. He meant if you are in stress spend as less as possible.

Of course, everyone has their biases. And misrepresenting the facts is common.

4:10 PM

@FaheemMitha I have no formal education in economics. So don't worry.

@PrabhjotSingh By that logic, Obama should put Air Force One in mothballs. Take a look at the National Debt. And also stop spending insane amounts of money on mass murder. Potential or actual.

@PrabhjotSingh Me neither. That's my point. Not that it seems to help the professional economists. Look how the international economy runs.

Those comments about Obama should have been in the past tense. Since he's no longer President. Though I doubt the present incumbent is any better.

@FaheemMitha agreed.

I wonder how much one of those drone things costs.

I dont like apples. after AAP I gave up mangoes. Now I think I shoulg give up oranges.

@PrabhjotSingh Sudden change of subject, but ok. What's wrong with mangoes? I like them.

Though they are expensive and not readily available.

What's AAP?

4:15 PM

@FaheemMitha Aam adami party. Aam = mango.

@PrabhjotSingh Aam adami party?

Yes, I surmised that Aam was mango.

@FaheemMitha You refer to someone orange here.

You mean these people? aamaadmiparty.org/signup

@PrabhjotSingh Oh, you mean the Orange in the White House?

@FaheemMitha Yes. who tweets GREAT people of America!!!!!

And Fake News.

4:18 PM

@FaheemMitha except Fox news.

Does AAP have something to do with that dodgy Hazare character?

To be clear, dodgy is not a compliment.

@FaheemMitha This is full of his followers.

@PrabhjotSingh Ugh.

That guy is just a stalking horse to try to destroy what's left of Indian democracy.

He sounds quite scary.

Like a Bizarro version of Gandhi.

@FaheemMitha Urban mediocrity needs these actors. And star culture here is alive and kicking.

@PrabhjotSingh As usual, not following.

What I read is that he wants some kind of unaccountable body to override Parliament in the guise of combating corruption. Sounds like a fast track to a dictatorship to me.

Though of course, I don't know what his actual agenda is. Nor do I know who the people behind him are.

4:23 PM

@FaheemMitha Those who dont understand history, economics and politics. they often become romantic. and then these actors came.

@PrabhjotSingh Romantic?

@FaheemMitha These people want knee jerk things. Do away every public or good thing.

@PrabhjotSingh You mean like quick fixes? Let's fix things with a wave of a magic wand? Like demonetization?

@FaheemMitha Your favourite Ms. Roy wrote many columns in Outlook.

@PrabhjotSingh Oh. About Hazare? I doubt she is a fan.

4:25 PM

@FaheemMitha Yes. btw recent EPW has an article about demonetization.

@FaheemMitha She is a critic.

@PrabhjotSingh I see. Good article?

@PrabhjotSingh Any particular articles you consider are worth reading?

@FaheemMitha outlookindia.com/blog/story/id-rather-not-be-anna/2594

@PrabhjotSingh Thanks.

One probably significant thing about Arundhati Roy is the amount of displeasure she attracts, at least online. I've practically never seen any positive comments on her articles.

Most of the responses tend to be pretty stupid, though. I'm puzzled why anyone would think that setting some unaccountable body over the Indian legislature and judicary or whatever is a good thing. Do they understand how democracy works? Do they know what separation of powers is? Do they have any understanding of civics at all?

@FaheemMitha When Hazare's movement was on, everyone was supporting him. Everyone felt they should seem to supporting him. But this one . Never supported him.

@PrabhjotSingh But this one . Never supported him.?

Everyone supported him? Are they all mentally deficient?

4:37 PM

@FaheemMitha This was the very reason of Mr. Hazare's movemnt's success..

Since this is India, possibly.

@PrabhjotSingh Yes, I know.

A very bad idea. Is it really not obvious?

@FaheemMitha Ms. Roy.

@PrabhjotSingh What was the reason?

@PrabhjotSingh Oh, her. Well, yes.

@FaheemMitha Yes. hazare himself dosen't why how did he protest.

She's quite smart. I don't know if I agree with everything she says, but it's nice to read someone who is not a complete moron.

@PrabhjotSingh What makes you think that?

4:41 PM

@FaheemMitha Now you can see what his followers are doing in different parties. AAP in particular.

@PrabhjotSingh I have no idea.

@FaheemMitha Kejriwal has not appointed an anti corruption ombudsman.

they were protesting for ombudsman then if you recall.

@PrabhjotSingh Vaguely. Sounds like you follow it more than I do.

thehindu.com/opinion/lead/id-rather-not-be-anna/…

This was i looking for.

and this. firstpost.com/politics/…

Adios.

@PrabhjotSingh Going somewhere?

@PrabhjotSingh Just for the record, do you agree with Arundhati Roy about Hazare?

And here is a response - clearvisor.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/…

But this article doesn't address the central issue. What will stop this new body from being as awful as the other similar bodies already in India? Will it be staffed by philosopher-kings? And who will appoint them?

> Finish your sentences first. Read the Jan lokpal bill. Then talk.
If you can’t trust the Government to be non corrupt, who are the committee members? God? to stay non corrupt forever? How can you be sure that without any supervision, the investigation, surveillance and prosecution will be trustworthy forever? How many Governing bodies do you want?

A to-the-point comment on that article. :-)

5:38 PM

@Fabby my first Unix-like programming environment was DJGCC (as it was known then) in 1992 I think; my first Unix was HPUX in 1994.

My first HP UX exposure was sit and watch the Uni's HP UX being rebooted by the operators because I crashed it.

@Fabby ha ha nice

(well, kinda crashed it: only my program was running in RAM and everyone else's war running in swap)

And I was told I was lucky as my privileges weren't revoked...

>:-)

@Fabby @StephenKitt First exposure to Unix and 2nd course of C, 1988, HP/UX.... I regularly wrote scripts ro lock all the dumb terminals around me except mine.... ;-P

Late teens lol

That got my first job.....

6:43 PM

@FaheemMitha I don't like Hazare 's movement because these people think everything would be hunky dory after appointing an ombudsman. But not because of Ms.

One more thing some people supporting him here in Punjab were against PDS. Anyone who wants to do away public system I don't like.

@PrabhjotSingh Ms? The plan isn't an ombudsman. The plan is for some kind of new institution. Which isn't part of the constitution.

And some people do get it. See the comment I quoted above. There are others like it.

E.g.

> You are saying lokpal will have power with transparency & accountability???? to who ????? it is going to be and independent body even above the Prime Minister, please think what ll happen if there is some body even above the prime minister (head of the govt.) Govt. ll change after 5 yrs.. what about lokpal members????

That makes similar points to the comment I quoted above.

@FaheemMitha lokayukta in angrezi is ombudsman.

Much of this really comes down to separation of powers. Which is a big deal in the United States. I don't know if it is so much in India, even though I believe that the Indian constitution is at least partly based on the US one.

@PrabhjotSingh Ok, but ombudsman implies a person. Not an institution. Probably quite a large institution.

@FaheemMitha Yes two or three I found sensible. Others are innovative (laughing ).

6:58 PM

@PrabhjotSingh Two or three who?

@FaheemMitha read how independent their justice system is. thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-opinion/…

@FaheemMitha comments are good rest are non sense

@PrabhjotSingh Their? You mean the US?

@FaheemMitha SCOTUS too have played to the gallery.

@PrabhjotSingh They're certainly not independent, if that is what you mean.

And this one too:

> the moot point is- how can one be sure that the new system will be fool proof? if our existing systems have failed because of ‘corrupt people’ , the new lok pal can also fail for the same reasons. so why not look at bettering the existing systems instead of inventing something new?

There might be uncorruptible people in India. But how do you determine who they are? Even assuming they are qualified?

And what is so great about a FIR anyway?

This one is a detailed survey - cyclopsincognito.blogspot.com/2011/08/…

@FaheemMitha Yes, there could be non corrupt people. But you see capital is not afraid of anything / anyone. Non corrupt may be future Citizen Kane.

7:06 PM

@PrabhjotSingh I don't follow. Citizen Kane?

You mean the film?

@FaheemMitha yes, film.

@PrabhjotSingh Not sure what point you are making.

Ombudsman could be taken to cooperation 's board after retirement.

@PrabhjotSingh cooperation 's board?

You mean they would be rewarded afterwards?

@FaheemMitha yes got it

7:09 PM

My point can be summarized by the old Roman proverb.

> Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

This is from Juvenal. Those lines were written around 2000 years ago.

I know only muscles' name in Latin.

But the world remains much the same place as it was then.

"Who will watch the watchmen?"

That's an approximate translation.

Yes, things may change completely but nothing would change in fact

And to bring this even vaguely in line with the room topic, here's Richard Stallman on the topic - stallman.org/watchmen.html

Starred

What is difference between Virtual Richard M. Stallman and Richard Stallman here in your link . @FaheemMitha

7:26 PM

@PrabhjotSingh Huh?

I didn't know Robert Chassell had died last year - fsf.org/blogs/community/goodbye-to-bob-chassell

@FaheemMitha Richard Stallman. I listened him before. But I didn't know his name. I remember he said open source term has weakened Free software movement.

@PrabhjotSingh Surely you know who Richard Stallman is.

He's Free Software's Patron Saint.

@FaheemMitha There was somebody controversial Edgar Hoover in US .

@PrabhjotSingh Yes, the FBI Director. What about him?

Switching browsers now.

@FaheemMitha He got information about everyone. And that he was aganist Macolm X and Martin Luther Jr.

7:34 PM

@PrabhjotSingh He was a bad person, yes.

I'm missing the context.

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