Language Overflow - 2020-05-11

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CowperKettle

02:50

@ColleenV I read about this Onfim in a paper book when I was a kid ))

The Novgorod Republic was very well-developed. It's a pity that Moscow destroyed it.

Novgorod Republic

The Novgorod Republic or Novgorodian Rus' (Russian: Новгоро́дская респу́блика, tr. Novgorodskaya respublika, IPA: [nəvgɐˈrotskəjə rʲɪsˈpublʲɪkə]; Новгородскаѧ землѧ / Novgorodskaję zemlę, Novgorod land; Latin: Novogardia or Russian: Новгородская Русь, tr. Novgorodskaya Rusĭ) was a medieval East Slavic state from the 12th to 15th centuries, stretching from the Gulf of Finland in the west to the northern Ural Mountains in the east, including the city of Novgorod and the Lake Ladoga regions of modern Russia. Citizens referred to their city-state as "His Majesty (or Sovereign) Lord Novgorod the Great...

CowperKettle

03:18

Residents living permanently in Japan's cyber-cafés - Lost in Manboo

SmokeDetector

03:58

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Linked punctuation in answer (58): Which tense is being used in 'it is moved from location A to B'? by Krishna Sharma on ell.SE

CowperKettle

04:26

user image

CowperKettle

05:02

Word of the day: to cook the books

2 hours later…

Decapitated Soul

06:47

It's more of an idiom than a word :P

Rhyming catch-phrase of the day: Fuddy duddy: one who is old-fashioned or ultraconservative.

Anonymous

07:14

@DecapitatedSoul True, but we have kind of a tradition of stretching the definition of word round these parts. Which, to be fair, can be taken to have lots of different meanings in any case.

Anonymous

We could call it lexeme of the day, but that just doesn't have the same ring to it. :-)

Anonymous

For that matter, we're stretching the meaning of day a bit.

Decapitated Soul

07:44

Alright :D

1 hour later…

CowperKettle

09:09

Early Herd Immunity against COVID-19: A Dangerous Misconception

CowperKettle

09:58

8

A: Is there data for programming language popularity pre year 2000?

Below is an attempt of ranking 'popularity' of programming languages invented in the 1980s or earlier by searching for "language programming" on worldcat. The table lists how many library items exist per year. C and C++, e.g., can unfortunately not be distinguished in this search, and there are a...

Turns out ADA was a very popular language in the 1980s

CowperKettle

10:44

I had a book about it in Russian, "The ADA programming language". The word ада in Russian means from hell or of hell, so the title read as "The programming language from hell"

ColleenV

10:55

At one point in the US, software written for the government was required to be in ADA. I forget why everyone thought it was an improvement over Pascal

Anonymous

I liked Pascal! I have fond memories of learning it when I was little.

ColleenV

I liked it too. It was more modern than C and I had a nice IDE for it... Borland I think?

emsps.com/oldtools/borpasv.htm

I had forgotten about Delphi - that was the first RAD language I was exposed to

CowperKettle

user image

AIQ

11:17

After spending 40 min on my meta post trying to convince OP that they need to improve their questions, nothing has changed - they have thrown my advice outta the window ...

have a look at the comments here

-1

Q: "This book is John's." If 'John's' isn't a possessive determiner, then what's this?

Possessive determiners are used to modify a following noun : Your book, John's book. ('Your' / 'John's' : Possessive determiner). This book is yours. Here, 'yours' isn't a possessive determiner. It's a possessive pronoun. This book is John's. Here, 'John's' isn't a possessive determiner; then w...

grammar possessives

that downvote is not mine

"@BillJ, I request you to stop your off-topic discussion, as you usually do, unless you've a better answer to my question. " - OP

"What research have you done? See here: link – BillJ "

"@BillJ, I know you're boiling inside while you can't answer my question here or elsewhere. Why do you misuse your time in useless arguments?" - OP

"I'll ask you again. What research have you done? And did you follow the link I gave you to the rules of ELL which explain what you are expected to do in the way of research? You're new to ELL, so you should abide by the rules. Btw, your rude comments have been reported to the moderators. – BillJ"

hmmmm ... This may be the time for that PrIvAtE ChAtRoOm

user435118

@AIQ what PrIvAtE ChAtRoOm?

user435118

@AIQ This comment is now removed (because of my flag)

AIQ

@Daniil I am joking. I am referring to our answers to the moderator questionnaire, where we talked about it as a last resort

when users don't change their behavior

user435118

Oh :)

user435118

Oh, the election ends tomorrow

user435118

11:23

8 days went so fast

AIQ

wise flagger

but my point is - they seem to not care at all

ColleenV

There will always be people that aren’t going to follow the advice they’re given no matter how much you explain

And that was my downvote, because the system that throttles people who are repeatedly asking low quality questions doesn’t work if no-one downvotes the questions

Once you’ve thoroughly explained how to ask, and they’ve shown they don’t care, don’t waste your breath, just downvote

AIQ

I wonder if snailcar, EM, or you are going to have a private chat with them - I don't mean to be intrusive - but maybe having a look at how you all handle it might helpful to us who have no mod experience - so when we (if elected) are in that position - we know exactly what kind of words to use

ColleenV

Not me, because I am no longer a moderator. It’s not my place

AIQ

I know - why am I using hyphens?

ColleenV

11:40

And then there’s this latest version of stupid list punctuation, so I’m done fixing it

-1

Q: You are working hard today vs You have been working hard today

I learned "you are working hard today" in English Grammar In Use book and I can't differentiate between these tow sentences below. .1 You have been working hard today. .2 You are working hard today.

Why do that? So your post gets edited and bumped? It is rude.

@AIQ There are no “right” words, and usually for someone as uncooperative as that user, it would be a mod message not a chat

We often collaborated on the wording for those

New Meta Question

0

Q: Pride & Prejudice in a Learning Platform

ELL & ELU -- are two nice platforms where we can enrich and enlighten ourselves through discussion. I've joined there recently. These two learning platforms are really useful. At the same time, I would like to say that @BillJ is one who discusses matters in the light of modern grammar. But the pr...

discussion answers on-topic-off-topic comments asking-questions

ColleenV

one mod writes it and the rest of the team looks it over and offers suggestions to give it the best chance of having an impact

AIQ

oh I see, how did you guys communicate? private message or this chat room

ColleenV

Every site has a private moderator chat room

AIQ

@NewMetaQuestion Jesus Christ this guy

ColleenV

11:50

you can not expose information like that in a public chat room like this one

AIQ

that makes sense, yes

CowperKettle

The incredible ibex defies gravity and climbs a dam | Forces of Nature with Brian Cox - BBC

ColleenV

12:08

@AIQ And the reason I said it was rude, is because they do it repeatedly...

0

Q: What is the difference between these two sentences in Past perfect continuous and past continuous?

I have learned English tenses but I get confused sometimes when I use them. And now I would like to know the difference between these two sentences. I was playing football when Ali came to join me. .2 I had been playing football when Ali came to join me.

But maybe that's not rudeness, maybe they're dyslexic and I'm grumpy

AIQ

Some users (I mean most) just want to get their sandwich and leave the site as quickly as possible. ELL is a proof-reader to them, sort of. I presume none of these users have taken a tour of the help center.

AIQ

12:31

Yeah, I remember I had a number of classmates in my undergrad, who used to show up a day before an exam and beg my best friend (who could never say no to girls) to tutor them (for free). We used to study together - so these free riders coming in would interrupt our studies, not to mention their constant nagging - omg you guys are so well prepared, we are going to fail tomorrow, please help us, you all have studied already

then after the exam they are gone

until the next exam

my point is some of our users are like this - they are here just to get what they want -they don't want to give back to the community

AIQ

12:59

Okay so, I have a question for native speakers ... When you were in college/grad-school, did you ever have your writing rephrased by your instructors/supervisors? I am referring to changing of sentences, words, phrases, etc., and not the actual content.

I don't know if my supervisor rephrased some of my sentences because they (my sentences) are just bad or because they don't like my style. They have told me a number of times that my language is not neutral and that my writing is more journalistic

I forgot the right word they used to describe it

userr2684291

Do you think there's something different about instructors/supervisors who are native speakers of English?

(I don't think this has anything to do with native speakers of English, it's about college/university in general, but in your case, you're not a native speaker of English, so you'll inevitably make mistakes.)

AIQ

@userr2684291 ummm I am asking about native speakers having their writing corrected/changed -

userr2684291

@AIQ I thought you said you attended college/university in your home country?

And I further assumed you used your mother tongue there... and that you probably did a paper or two there.

AIQ

I attended college in my home country; I am doing my master's in NA

no no

userr2684291

13:14

@AIQ You had to speak/write in English or some other language you're not a native speaker of in college?

As I said, you could judge from your own experience in college, and this has nothing to do with someone being a native speaker of English (in case that's what you meant by "native speakers").

It does have a lot to do with it when you're not a native speaker.

AIQ

@userr2684291 English.

Lectures were in my native language but English terms were used ... I don't know how to explain this. "Unemployment rate" was said like that - but whether it would increase or decrease was said in my native language

Everything had to be written in English

though

@EddieKal @ColleenV @snailcar

> As native speakers, when you were in high-school/college/grad-school, did you ever have your writing rephrased by your native speaking instructors/supervisors? I am referring to changing of sentences, words, phrases, etc., and not the actual content.

userr2684291

This doesn't have anything to do with their first language being English. You just need someone who attended college.

CowperKettle

user image

userr2684291

Arthropods = insects.

Unbelievable, really.

AIQ

@userr2684291 I think you are missing the point. I know that writing of non-native speakers are quite likely to be corrected by native English speakers (exceptions like M.A.R. don't apply). I am asking whether a student's writing (who is a native English speaker) is usually corrected or changed by their native English speaking professors.

userr2684291

13:33

@AIQ You're missing the point: if a student is a native speaker of German, and their supervisor is as well, and they speak and write in German, the answer to your question wouldn't be any different.

I kinda gave up on repeating my explanation above, which is why my point might not be as clear there.

AIQ

@userr2684291 Yes, and that is what I asked in my original question (in my original question I didn't mention English)

In Germany, do students write in German? I don't think questions are written in German - otherwise how would international students who don't know German write the answers?

Surely, two versions (different languages) would not be cost effective

userr2684291

There are normally two versions of the course, of course, if not just via consultations.

AIQ

You are saying that in a Business department (or any other) all 70+ courses have two versions - one in English and one in the native language of the country? And that would then apply to all other departments and faculty in the university? No.

userr2684291

It depends on the university, but yes. It depends on the demand and such, but I can't speak for all universities, just those I attended.

Mostly it's just some courses, from what I've experienced. And when you reach graduate level, since there are fewer students, more courses are available in English. Some are taught only in English, indeed.

ColleenV

13:51

@AIQ I'm not sure I understand the question. I think it is quite natural for someone reading another person's writing to rephrase things or make suggestions for ways to improve it, regardless of whether they are writing in their native language or a foreign language.

Their motivations for doing it probably vary, but I try to look at it as them trying to help me write better.

I've always been a pretty capable technical writer though, so I didn't really experience enough correcting that it annoyed me. Probably because my Dad is a perfectionist and apples don't fall far from the tree ;)

AIQ

@ColleenV I think you got it. But think of it this way - you and your supervisor are both native speakers - what makes their writing better than yours (not talking about content - but about language - sentences, style, etc.)? I mean I know when I get corrected it's because their writing is superior. But what is it like for you?

ColleenV

Sometimes it's just a difference in perspective and that's valuable. There are hundreds of ways to write things in English that are correct and no "best" way for every reader

If I disagree with their correction, I ask them why they think that's bettter

AIQ

I see.

ColleenV

and sometimes I just don't argue because it's their class and I want to get a good grade and it's not that important to me

As a recovered perfectionist, I learned to be less attached to my idea of the best way and accept that someone else's way is ok too (even if it's not as good as mine!) ;) I'm happier now

I think I was on the opposite side of your situation where I am the one persecuting people by correcting their writing even though it's fine.

AIQ

@ColleenV This is what my supervisor keeps telling me - they keep telling me that "AIQ, stop trying to be perfect, just try to be good and finish fast - the best thesis is a complete thesis"

ColleenV

14:00

@AIQ The idiom of the day is "Pick your battles" then

AIQ

I did a labour econ course with them - where I did really well. And now that I am doing my thesis - they seem to know my behavior very well. Being a perfectionist is a curse - it impedes progress

at least for me

ColleenV

Your thesis is not to demonstrate your English skills, it's to communicate your research clearly.

AIQ

I keep painting the same painting until I get it right - I have wasted a maximum of 37 canvases behind one single painting

lots of money and time wasted

ColleenV

I read somewhere once that the Amish leave purposeful mistakes in their crafts

because no-one except God is perfect (or something like that)

You should try finding a small imperfection, and leaving it

and admiring it as a reminder of how being perfect is hurting your progress

AIQ

thanks for the great advice

no seriously I mean it

ColleenV

14:04

I understand where you're coming from

I am still working on being more easy going about stuff like that

and it's been 30 years

AIQ

and you are an engineer

perfection is in the profession

I mean you have to be perfect

ColleenV

Not really, engineering is about being good enough

perfection is too expensive

AIQ

for me it all started with painting - now it has taken over all aspects of my life - I mean the ones that I care about

ColleenV

If a bridge needs to be able to hold 100 cars at once, we design it to hold 500 cars and say good enough

we don't design it for as many cars as could possibly be piled on it

Artist suffer from the curse as well

probably more so because art is about your vision for something

and engineering is more about making something work

What it comes down to, is at what point does repeating something again result in negligible progress toward improvement

AIQ

When I was in undergrad, I helped a friend build their architecture project/model - their professor was shocked how I had done it better than the rest of the archi class.

CowperKettle

14:09

Putin has just said that the national "off work" period ceases starting tomorrow. Just in time, when we have reached 11 000 new cases per day.

ColleenV

You can't teach attention to detail

2

@CowperKettle Is that good news or do you feel it is too soon?

CowperKettle

@ColleenV It's bad news. He shoulders off all responsibility on the governors of regions.

AIQ

@CowperKettle But the said governors are still free to make their own decision, no?

ColleenV

14:24

I think it's better for local government to make most of the decisions, but that assumes the local government is less corrupt than the national one and people have more control at the local level

and that's not always the case

CowperKettle

@AIQ Yes.

So basically nothing changes, aside from the fact that it would be harder to appeal to the federal level for help.

AIQ

lol Oh lordy, another "there's a difference, but I can't quite put my finger on it" question. But I'm gonna try anyway. :)

CowperKettle

14:53

user image

1 hour later…

SmokeDetector

15:55

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (94): What is most common name of pants used for exercise? ✏️ by Earth Nature on ell.SE

CowperKettle

16:51

You can't plant flowers if you haven't botany

ColleenV

Well I guess I should just throw in the trowel now before I waste more time...

hmm probably should have been:

I guess I should throw in the trowel now before I waste any more thyme...

4 hours later…

ColleenV

21:04

I stumbled across this again. Not sure if y'all are aware of the ELL Greatest Hits page...

2

Q: ELL's Greatest Hits Page

I saw the Stack Exchange's Greatest Hits blog post linked on EL&U's meta, and found that ELL has a "greatest hits" page. This page links the most frequently found questions on ELL by people searching the web (that we have data for). The list is pretty interesting, and it might be a good idea to c...

discussion questions answers

A lot of those questions are quite thin on detail though...

33

Q: What is the difference between "me neither" and "me either"?

I want to know the difference between "me neither" and "me either", are both correct?

difference conjunctions negation

2 hours later…

userr2684291

22:40

Oh, there's that "anonymous and low rep unique positive feedback count". I always wondered where that went.

: )

I'm happy it's stored somewhere after all.

Anonymous

I've been happy to see how a lot of people have been contributing to the site recently. I have a good feeling about ELL right now :-)

Anonymous

And, despite some negative things happening in my life and the world right now, I also have some good things going on. I hope you all can find something positive right now to think about.

userr2684291

Aw. I can, I just submitted my paper/code, and that means I can relax for a few days!

@Mazura: Links are never answers. Period. — Lightness Races in Orbit Jun 27 '15 at 19:55

I looked up period in Lexico, UK version, and they label it as North American, so now I'm wondering if that's something Brits say regardless, meaning "no discussion".

(I know they say full stop as well in that sense.)

Anonymous

23:38

I'm just imagining some might say it, but it might be perceived as a bit of an Americanism.

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May '2011

Language Overflow

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