Language Overflow

SmokeDetector

01:45

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly non-Latin answer: Someone else said exactly the same thing before you could say by adfg on ell.SE

CowperKettle

02:55

@M.A.R. (0:

Anonymous

06:10

Hello! :-)

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Thank you :-) I'm doing okay.

skill patrol

Hi there :-)

Anonymous

Have I missed much excitement? Or maybe any particularly interesting discussions?

skill patrol

Don't know, I haven't been around much either.

Anonymous

Ohh, I see. Well, it's always nice to see you around.

Anonymous

06:21

I'm recovering and will hopefully be able to spend some more time on SE this next week :-)

Anonymous

Right now J.R. and Colleen are handling most of the flags on ELL, and Earthling and Flaw are handling most of the flags over on Japanese.SE, but I'm still trying to check in each day and help out with flags if I can.

Anonymous

But they've been getting to most of them before I get a chance :-)

Anonymous

Industrious mods on these two sites!

Anonymous

But if anyone needs anything, feel free to flag, and if anyone wants to talk to me, please feel free to ping :-)

Anonymous

I'll keep checking in.

Anonymous

06:24

I appreciate the well-wishing pings I've been getting :-)

3

Anonymous

Things were just a little more complicated than they thought they were going to be, but I'm fine and I'll be back around pestering everyone in no time :-)

Anonymous

In the meantime, I hope I've managed to increase the room's smiley face quotient by a significant amount. I think that may be one of my most prominent contributions to the chat – the sheer number of smiley faces I type to you all :-)

CowperKettle

06:38

(0:

Alex89

07:12

Good morning. I would be happy if I could just talk a little bit about our SE with someone. Thanks.

skill patrol

07:24

Askaway.

Alex89

I've understood I have the maximum of 30,000 characters to post in an answer. But are there any such restrictions for questions..?

V.V.

07:55

. He and his brother hee-hawed and bumped knuckles.@CowperKettle, help with "bumped knuckles ".please. Any help appreciated.

M.A.R.

08:28

Fist bump

A fist bump, Originally called Respect in Jamaica and later the UK, (also called power five, dap, fist pound, touch, a bops, bones, spud, or brofist) is a gesture similar in meaning to a handshake or high five. A fist bump can also be a symbol of giving respect or approval. It can be followed by various other hand and body gestures and may be part of a dap greeting. It is commonly used in baseball and hockey as a form of celebration with teammates, and with opposition players at the end of a game. In cricket it is a common celebratory gesture between batting partners. == Definition == Mer...

!!greet/Atheist

Ellbot

Welcome to ELL's chat room @Atheist! Happy chatting!

Atheist

hi

M.A.R.

Hi

Alex89

Hi, M.A.R. Nice to see you.

M.A.R.

Hullo! Nice to meet you too

Alex89

08:32

There are so few questions on Sunday here( At least it's my impression

M.A.R.

Hmm, never noticed that. I don't keep track of question flow that much tho'

But considering how few spam we get according to the stats on Sundays, that observation is accurate

Alex89

Could you answer my question in the chat above (it is about number of characters in a question)

skill patrol

1 hour ago, by Alex89

I've understood I have the maximum of 30,000 characters to post in an answer. But are there any such restrictions for questions..?

M.A.R.

@Alex89 Question titles can't be less than 15 chars or more than 150 chars. I think such 30,000 character limit also applies to questions

Alex89

OK, thanks. So from 15 to 150 symbols in the title and up to 30000 in the body. It is nice.

M.A.R.

08:37

Although, if people legitimately have a lot of long posts to post, they can ask on meta.SE for an expansion and since it's probably as easy as changing a variable, SE respond positively

IIRC it's more than 30,000 in more than one site.

Alex89

I have asked 5 questions on Meta. I think it's more than enough.) I think I won't ask more, at least in close future.

And are all the answers in every single question always arranged in a chronological order? I mean the older is the answer, the higher it is placed.

M.A.R.

@Alex89 The ordering is right above the top answer

You can sort by votes, activity, and by oldest answers

Alex89

Oh, nice.

but what exactly is sorting by activity

what's the activity

M.A.R.

However, if the OP of the question and the OP of the answer aren't the same, and the answer gets accepted, it sticks to the top, no matter how many votes it has less than other answers

@Alex89 Answering posting, and all the edits done after that

If I post an answer, it's my answer's first activity

Then if it gets edits, it becomes the answer's second activity

Comments don't count

Alex89

Hmm, thanks. At our site, the accepted answer also always gets to the top. So we also have that rule. But we call it not 'accepted" but simply "best" answer.

M.A.R.

08:52

Here, accept means nothing more than ''The OP found it interesting'', OP meaning Original Poster.

So there are some accepted answers that have less votes than the other answer, and there's even a badge for it

Alex89

Is that Populist

M.A.R.

Yep

Alex89

I feel sad I did not get Custodian. Yesterday I made a review, at least I think so. My edit was accepted (got 2 points). But no Custodian yet. If there are more accesible reviews today, I'll try to get it today or tomorrow.

M.A.R.

That's not a review O.o

That's an edit

You have no reviews.

Your edit was approved, meaning other users reviewed it and approved it, not you

Alex89

Ohhh... then, how exactly to make a review... could you please explain

M.A.R.

09:03

ell.stackexchange.com/review

You use that link, which should be available on the top header of the site for you

Of course, ELL is not such a busy site, so except close votes, there's usually nothing to review

I just sporadically click on that link to see one or two items available for reviewing, sometimes more.

Alex89

OK, try to get in my shoes please (a user who has 580 points of reputation) First I press the "review" button. Then I see if there are available reviews. If there are zeroes only then I just go away. But suppose it is an available review at First posts or Late answers. What should I do?..

M.A.R.

@Alex89 There are two review queues available for me that I can see, and four are greyed out, meaning I can't review them.

There are also 'recent reviews' links, which leads to a stats page

That stats page tells you who has done how many reviews today in that queue

And who are the top reviewers of all time in that queue

Don't click that 'recent reviews' links when there are items to review though.

So, now to the main show:

If you see there are items that can be reviewed, click on the review queue, i.e. ''Late Answers'' or ''First Posts''

Wait until it has loaded.

In the ''first posts'' queue, take a look at what the post looks like. If it needs an edit, edit.

If it need a comment for clarification, comment.

If it needs a downvote, or an upvote, vote it.

Then, after you've done something to the post, and first posts usually do need someone to do something to them before they conform to the (highest) standards of asking on ELL, the 'No Action Needed' button is greyed out and 'I'm done' appears

You can click on 'I'm done', when you're done.

That's how to review first posts.

Late answers are new answers from users with less than 50 rep to old questions, which might go missing from the eye because most people only watch the 'Newest' questions tab

Alex89

But yesterday I did make all the actions you have explained! So I think I made a review. I edited a late answer frow a newcomer and then I pressed 'I'm done' button. I am not used to telling lies...

M.A.R.

If you see spam which would almost always be from users with 1 rep, flag it.

Generally, be really skeptical when reviewing 1-rep users' posts

They are usually not-an-answer (NAA) or Very-Low-Quality (VLQ).

@Alex89 You can see the reviews other users have done, by visiting their profile, then activity tab, then the 'reviews' tab.

Your 'reviews' tab tells me you haven't done any reviews.

So most probably something got in the way.

Maybe an error or whatever.

Don't worry, I'll tell you next time I find posts to review, so you can review them.

By the way, review responsibly please. If you end up clicking 'No Action Needed' when the post was spam or rude/abusive, and a mod notices it, you might get a review suspension.

Alex89

09:22

Oh, thanks for that notice.

V.V.

@M.A.R.! Great thanks for a pic!

M.A.R.

Yay, so many thankses

Alex89

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/116478/… — here is the edit I made yesterday. A review edit, not a "simple"one. You don't see it in my activity, if I understand correctly?.... ell.stackexchange.com/posts/123607/revisions

M.A.R.

@Alex89 But it's not an edit you reviewed, it's an edit you proposed

Alex89

hmmm...

M.A.R.

09:32

You can review edits if they're on your posts before 2,000 rep, and review suggested edits in general after 2,000 edits

You can also review tag wiki edits after 5,000 rep

ell.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/54495

This is the link to the suggested edit review of the edit you proposed

Max and Cardinal approved it

So it was approved

Alex89

It's a little bit hard for me to understand.) I understand that I proposed an edit. Not reviewed the edit, of course. Why the hell should I review the edit?)) But I thought I reviewed a LATE ANSWER. The name of the queue is "Late answers".

you know, there is a queue "Suggested edits". But it is grey for me. And I don't even bother about it.

M.A.R.

@Alex89 Yes, as I said, two queues are available for now, and more become available as you gain more rep

Alex89

yes

M.A.R.

Reviewing Suggested Edits needs 2,000 rep.

Reviewing Close Votes and Reopen Votes requires 3,000 rep

Alex89

I know. ) Thanks. I want to talk about images. Can I post images/pictures in my questions/answers?

M.A.R.

09:43

Yes, sure

There are different tools available on the top of a post when you want to post something

I only use the image upload tool, which is hard to type

But the others I just type

BRB

Alex89

At my site (Russian one) I had some troubles with images. If the image was too large, it sometimes did not load. And I heard it's bad to use images from Internet. Someone told that you can get a penalty due to copyright or smth like that. But Internet pictures are so nice...

Oh, now I see. I can upload here a picture from my computer of maximum of 2MiB (are these megabytes?). And I also can provide an Internet link.

M.A.R.

10:02

5

Q: What does max 2 MiB mean?

When I click the button to add an image to stackexchange websites, it says "max 2 MiB" What does that mean? Is it an amount of megabits? Whats the max amount I can upload (in megabits)?

Alex89

oh, mebibytes. Thanks, M.A.R.

I'm really not strong in computers.

M.A.R.

Neither am I

Alex89

maybe not in, but AT computers... sorry, these prepositions

M.A.R.

@Alex89 'with' actually. 'at' might work

Anonymous

10:19

The MB and MiB distinction is kind of new. Well, you know, relatively speaking. I've been trying to make the distinction for a while now, but a lot of people still don't.

Anonymous

We don't usually say strong in computers. I think good with computers sounds more natural.

M.A.R.

\o @Snail

I actually never knew you were feeling ill

Anonymous

Good mroing, @M.A.R. :-)

Anonymous

I am not ill exactly. I'm just recovering from some medical things.

M.A.R.

Oh

Get well soon

Anonymous

10:23

Thank you :-) I'm doing okay at the moment. I have to be cautious in using moderator powers since I'm on medication that might affect my judgment, so I'm leaving the important stuff to J.R. and Colleen. I'm trying to help in little ways where I can, though :-)

Anonymous

3

Q: What is the difference between invention and discovery?

What is the difference in meaning or connotation of 'discovery' as compared to 'invention'? I think invention is the result of targeted search and discovery may be accidental. One definition in The Oxford English Dictionary, edition 1971, of 'invention' is: "I,1. The action of coming upon ...

meaning-in-context word-difference

Anonymous

This question got closed, but then the author edited it to make it a better, more on-topic question, and we got it reopened.

Anonymous

I'd like to see that sort of behavior rewarded with upvotes :-)

Anonymous

I thought I would share the link in chat in case anyone here agrees.

Alex89

Oh, thanks, snailplane. Hello and nice to meet you. I wanted to talk to you so much.) I am 28 years old, from Chisinau, Republic of Moldova.

Anonymous

10:27

Hello! :-)

Alex89

I love this site. It is really useful. I love badges.

Never knew that in English you say "good with computers". But now I know it.

Anonymous

I'm glad you find it useful :-) Badges can be fun. They're supposed to be there to encourage behaviors that help the site, like doing reviews or posting nice answers.

M.A.R.

@Alex89 A fact nugget everyday keeps ignorance away

user62015

I live / lived / have lived / have been living here for ten years now.

have lived or have been living

I think, have been living

Anonymous

Both options seem fine to me.

Anonymous

10:33

Live and lived seem odd, but have lived and have been living both seem fine to me.

Alex89

If the verb "to live" can be at all used in Continuous (= Progressive) or Perfect Progressive tenses, then I would choose "have been living".

user62015

First choice I think have been right?

userr2684291

@Alex89 It can.

user62015

Yes.

The bed was very uncomfortable. I ____________ sleep very well.
didn't did wasn't not

didn't, right?

M.A.R.

Yeah.

user62015

10:36

She _______ the first question but she _______ others.
answered / answered answered / didn't answer
was answer / answered answered / not answer

answered / didn't answer ?

right?

userr2684291

@user62015 I don't know what you're asking.

user62015

I was solving these questions

so got some issues.

M.A.R.

@user62015 You are frankly too high level for this, so I have no idea why you're asking

user62015

I agree but someone told me answered answered / not answer could be answered

So I got confused

Indian grammar not easy to deal..........ahahahhaa

userr2684291

@user62015 You solve problems and answer questions.

user62015

10:38

Yes.

user178049

Hello @snailplane . I hope you recover quickly! :-)

Hello everyone!

userr2684291

@user62015 They're wrong.

user62015

Thanks.

M.A.R.

@user178049 \o

This question is off-topic because it is about how to understand percentages. — TRomano 7 mins ago

userr2684291

@user62015 Hallo.

M.A.R.

10:42

Wut, really?

user62015

Yes @userr2684291

M.A.R.

Yes @userr2684291

O.o

Alex89

Oh, there is an available review (first post). Could I please do it if the community doesn't mind.

M.A.R.

@Alex89 Sure

userr2684291

@Alex89 Let's see who does it first.

Welp.

user178049

10:45

@M.A.R. I think the question is still unclear. 40%=40 percent. Hmm..what's the problem

Alex89

sorry, I skipped it.

M.A.R.

@user178049 I don't see how it's any different from any other comprehension problem

userr2684291

@Alex89 I flagged it and finished reviewing.

user178049

@Alex89 I couldn't do any review actually. I'm not familiar with that feature. And Im not using PC now.

Alex89

Yes, thanks. I meant userr2684291. Not user178049 )

userr2684291

10:49

@M.A.R. They're mistaken. The enquirer isn't asking about percentages but what they're referring to in the text.

user178049

@M.A.R. I think she should italicized the part that she couldn't understand. Btw, that's a good answer M.A.R!

@Alex89 Haha -..-

M.A.R.

@Alex89 I think he needs to add a couple of more r's to be distinguishable

userrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr2684291 should do it

Alex89

I love English R's. But perhaps I will never be able to realize a proper rolled [r]. I tried, but my tongue does not want to vibrate((

user178049

@Alex89 Yeah, same her. I have a stupid non-rhotic accent.

*here

Anonymous

Most accents of English don't have rolled R's.

M.A.R.

10:56

"her . . . John"? O.o Anyway, proofreading is off-topic here, and this question is likely to be closed as such. — M.A.R. 18 secs ago

Well, that was like talking to a wall. @Snail what happened to that guy's account?

userr2684291

@M.A.R. I'm gonna change it to user17804 9.

M.A.R.

@userr2684291 IMPOSTOR! I always knew you're a cute little girl

Alex89

English R is usually an approximant. But many languages have rolled, or trill R (Russian, Romanian, Italian, Arabic etc...).

userr2684291

@M.A.R. I flagged that question as part of my first review.

Anonymous

@M.A.R. They deleted their own account.

M.A.R.

10:58

O.o

user178049

@userr2684291 Damn! Hahaha

M.A.R.

@userr2684291 Review thief

Anonymous

Since it was clearly off-topic and the poster deleted their own account, I decided it was unsalvagable and simply deleted the question.

user178049

Hey, what about the Proofreading SE.. I thought the idea was a sinking ship.

Anonymous

I learned how to roll my R sounds for Spanish when I was very young.

userr2684291

10:59

@M.A.R. Guilty.

Anonymous

So it's always been easy for me.

M.A.R.

Speaking of Spanish, I love that new game Burrito Bison

Alex89

Oh, Spanish for me is troublesome. because it has two R's. pero vs perro, caro vs carro etc.

Anonymous

Yes, and the tap is a bit different.

M.A.R.

Dec 5 '15 at 21:09, by tchrist

> riroriro /ˈriːroʊriːroʊ/.
Etymology: Maori.

Also (with hyphen) riro-riro. The New Zealand grey warbler, Gerygone igata, a small wren-like bird belonging to the subfamily Malurinæ of the family Muscicapidæ.

1835 W. Yate Acct. N.Z. (ed. 2) ii. 58 ― Riroriro, a very small brown bird, with white feathers under the wings and tail.
1860 [see fan-tail sb. 3].
1884 M. A. Martin Our Maoris viii. 125 ― There is a little bird called Riro-riro in New Zealand from its note.
1939 D. Cresswell Present without Leave 32 ― The riro-riro··has a small wistful song.

userr2684291

11:00

@M.A.R. Woo, flagged another one.

Anonymous

A tap is similar to a roll with only one contact of the tongue, but technically it is not quite the same.

M.A.R.

Somebody stop this userrrr guy

Alex89

Isn't Spanish tap R (as in pero or morena) like Persian (Farsi) R?

M.A.R.

Your question is about how to understand numbers, @haile. That's what's wrong with it. It's not about the English language. It is about as off-topic as a question can get here. And take care not to insult me next time. Ad hominem attacks can get you banned. — TRomano 4 mins ago

@Snail you might wanna look out for that post

Anonymous

In a trilled R, air builds up behind the tongue and causes it to move away from the roof of the mouth repeatedly. If this happens fast enough, you end up with a single-contract trill.

M.A.R.

11:02

It's turning into a drama

Anonymous

On the other hand, a tapped r involves rapidly moving the tongue to the roof of the mouth and then rapidly away, but it is not driven by a buildup of air behind the tongue.

Anonymous

So technically, a single-contact trill can be distinguished (in terms of articulatory phonetics, if perhaps not always in terms of auditory phonetics) from a tap or a flap.

Alex89

Thanks, snailplane. If you don't mind, I want to ask another question about English phonology. I kind of like it. Is there in English at least one word (or more) which starts with a ZH-sound? It is like S in 'vision' or 'pleasure', or French J.

userr2684291

@Alex89 dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/zhuzh

But I can try and list them all...

Alex89

@userr2684291 thanks. Pfff, I've never heard before of 'zhuzh'. But I certainly don't know even 10 per cent of all English words.

userr2684291

11:08

@Alex89 pastebin.com/raw/BZkCfZZ6

Most of them aren't really English words.

But this isn't a complete list, and it's not really reliable, haha.

M.A.R.

Zhoosh

Zhe

Dzo

Anonymous

The set of rules for where sounds can go in a language is called phonotactics, and in general English phonotactics prohibits that sound in that position. You can find it in loans from other languages, particularly in names.

Anonymous

We usually only use it in the middle of words, like confusion.

Anonymous

But you can hear it in borrowed names such as Zsa Zsa Gabor.

Alex89

In Russian, we have quite a lot of words starting with ZH (Ж). But it's retroflex at us... And, logically, Russian SH (Ш) is retroflex as well. They need the tongue to be curled backwards, if I explain it correctly. English R also needs that tongue to be kind of backwards, but it's approximant and Russian Ж and Ш are fricatives. I am surprised that Russian hasn't any plosive, or stop retroflex sounds. Languages of India have a lot of them.

Anonymous

11:17

We can also hear it at the end of a few loanwords from French, such as rouge.

Anonymous

English has a great many ways to pronounce R sounds. It varies depending on where the speaker grew up, but also varies from speaker to speaker.

Alex89

I like English phonotactics. I don't know if I can express myself correctly but I think English is a mild language. It seems better than French or Italian, not speaking about such 'rough' languages as Arabic.

user62015

@M.A.R. The boss said that you have to let me use this computer.

have to

must

Why have to what is wrong with must?

M.A.R.

Huh, forgot the distinction

5

Q: What is the difference between “have to”, “must”, and “should”?

Is there any difference between have to”, “must”, and “should”? If there is some difference between them, when do I have to use (nor not use) each of the constructions below? have to do something must do something should do something

grammar modal-verbs obligation

user62015

Okay.\

user178049

11:22

@user62015 to my imperfect ears, I think "allow" sounds better than "let".

M.A.R.

> Modal paraphrases come in handy in English when we need a past tense or a negative in the sentence, because modal auxiliary verbs have very limited syntax -- they require all negatives to follow them, and they are not inflected for tense.

He has to leave now. = He must leave now.
Normally, in the present and in the affirmative, they're identical.
But with a negative, there are two possibilities
He doesn't have to leave. ≠ He must not leave.
The first one means he has no obligation to leave,
but the second means he has an obligation not to leave; i.e, he must stay.

Alex89

@snailplane I once tried to watch the film 'Van Helsing' in English. I noticed that Van Helsing himself pronounces a 'correct' (standard) English R. But other characters, e. g. Dracula and female vampires pronounce it rolled. I was quite surprised by that.

M.A.R.

So I don't know what ridiculous pseudo-rule your book/teacher has made for it @User6

userr2684291

@Alex89 It adds character. :>

user62015

I am solving an exercise and I downloaded from internet

Anonymous

11:25

Rolled R's are not incorrect.

Alex89

Also in the game "Far Cry 3" Citra has a rolled R. I played it at the end of 2016.

Anonymous

But they can be a bit of an affectation if they're used by a speaker of an accent which normally does not roll their R's, and in that case it will stand out.

user62015

Can I upload the file here? @M.A.R. @snailplane Or only can upload images here?

M.A.R.

@user62015 You can't upload files, but you can upload them to, say, Dropbox

Anonymous

You can only upload images here, as far as I'm aware.

user62015

11:27

Yes. I agree.

Anonymous

@M.A.R. Can you ping me again if you see things getting out of hand over there? I left a comment and removed a little bit from the comments section.

M.A.R.

I agree with your agreeing

@snailplane Thank you, yeah, I saw it.

Anonymous

My phone battery is going to run out soon, and then I might not be offline for a little while.

Anonymous

Whoops, misnegated.

M.A.R.

This is a quiet site anyway

Anonymous

11:30

And then I might be offline for a while.

Alex89

It was very nice to talk to you, snailplane. I am impressed. I want to sleep a bit now. But in the evening, I'll probably be here again.

Anonymous

It only seems quiet because J.R. and Colleen do such a good job moderating :-)

userr2684291

@M.A.R. Quite.

Anonymous

Have a good night, @Alex89!

M.A.R.

@snailplane I didn't get it, and I then chose to interpret as 'I might not be offline for a little while, but for a long time'

Anonymous

11:31

Hopefully not that long :-)

Anonymous

The place where I'm resting is not near my usual computer.

M.A.R.

But near your unusual computer?

'But' is an awesome conjunction

user62015

@M.A.R. there?

Anonymous

@Araucaria Whew, the conversation on this Q&A got really long! I think it might need some cleaning up, but for now I'm not really in the right place to do it.

Anonymous

@curiousdannii CGEL doesn't do pron (because it's a grammar book!). — Araucaria yesterday

Anonymous

11:43

This isn't entirely true!

Anonymous

See CGEL p.1613, which is generally in agreement with what John Wells writes in the LPD.

M.A.R.

Yeah o.o

Anonymous

I usually cite the LPD rather than CGEL in discussions about the allomorphs of the, but I have a mini-bibliography written up somewhere, if I can find it.

Anonymous

The distribution of the two allomorphs is one of the places where phonology overlaps with morphology, so it's one of the bits where CGEL actually covers pronunciation.

Anonymous

(Or should I say three allomorphs?)

Anonymous

11:47

@M.A.R. I am definitely near my unusual computer! Well spotted :-)

user178049

"Mortarboard:Earn at least 200 reputation (the daily maximum ) in a single day." Why at least, when the maximum is 200??

"At least"

Anonymous

You can only earn 200 points in a day from upvotes.

M.A.R.

12:02

@user178049 Because accepts and bounties don't count

As Snail said, you can only get the rep from 20 answer upvotes.

But someone might earn 215 rep because of an additional accept

Anonymous

M.A.R. is really good at answering questions like that one about how the site works.

user178049

What happen if someone unaccepts an answer? Will the answerer -15?

Anonymous

Yes.

user178049

Thanks @snailplane @M.A.R. . Now I get it.

V.V.

Hi, hope you're all OK.

M.A.R.

12:15

@V.V. Hi

@snailplane ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

user178049

Hi @V.V. !

Anonymous

> With the definite article the, the weak form /ðə/ is generally used before consonants and /ði/ before vowels: /ðə ˈpeəʳ/ (the pear) and /ði ˈæpl/ (the apple). There is, however, a certain amount of variation: some speakers use /ðə/ throughout – and there are also those who have this as a strong form. (CGEL p.1613)

Anonymous

This is generally in agreement with what John Wells writes in the LPD:

Anonymous

> The English as a foreign language learner is advised to use ðə before a consonant sound (the boy, the house), ði before a vowel sound (the egg, the hour). Native speakers, however, sometimes ignore this distribution, in particular by using ðə before a vowel (which is in turn usually reinforced by a preceding ʔ), or by using ðiː in any environment, though especially before a hesitation pause. Furthermore, some speakers use stressed ðə as a strong form, rather than the usual ðiː.

Anonymous

On ELL, most students will likely be taught the traditional distinction between ðə and ði, and it's both simple and certainly a fine way for learners to pronounce things, so I don't see any problem with teaching it that way. We do have to acknowledge, though, that native speakers don't always follow that pattern.

M.A.R.

12:23

@000: just because we disagree on the triage outcome of your problem doesn't mean you need to disparage us on our English comprehension. :-) I can see that you are upset about all this, but that doesn't mean your question is any more on topic. Sorry! — Martijn Pieters ♦ Apr 13 '15 at 17:34

Wow, being a mod is hard.

Anonymous

@Araucaria Oh, you got to adding the comment before I did! Thanks :-)

M.A.R.

@user178049 Please don't use a space before punctuation mark. This isn't French. Also it would still ping V.V.

Anonymous

I had to get to a computer to start typing this stuff up.

V.V.

I don't mind, MAR.

user178049

@M.A.R. Oh, sorry. I thought it wouldn't

M.A.R.

12:27

@V.V. I mind :) I've actually grown over-sensitive to such trivial things

user178049

@snailplane Thought I know the "thee" sound produces "stress". I still don't know the reason why native speakers do so. What is emphasized when I say "thee"?

*though

Araucaria

@snailplane Thanks for setting me straight on that (I hadn't checked, to be quite honest). I think I was trying to make the point that Wells' LPD or similar is probably the kind of authority we need for pron. But, happily, the clout of CamGEL will probably provide the necessary authority for professional skeptics! :-)

user62015

Can we use "recently" with present perfect tense?

Or just past simple

Anonymous

And that's a good point, IMO. I go to the LPD first :-) Actually, I don't have the other major pronunciation dictionaries myself.

Araucaria

@snailplane Me neither. Btw, do you know how to get superscript in comments?

Anonymous

12:33

@user178049 Just so you know, I'm not ignoring your question, but I don't think I can answer it adequately for you right at this very moment. I think an answer needs to address several fundamental ideas, like what stress is and the difference between types of English vowels.

Anonymous

@Araucaria I found a page on Wikipedia and copied the "r" from there en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_subscripts_and_superscripts

Anonymous

peəʳ

Anonymous

Stack Exchange doesn't support superscript in comments, but Unicode seems to have a little superscript r you can use.

Anonymous

I'm always a little nervous using those Unicode letters because I'm not sure if they work on everyone's computers.

user178049

@snailplane Nevermind :-) I'll to look it up by myself.

I mean "I'll try"

Anonymous

12:35

So it might actually be better to stick with the parenthesized r, I don't know.

Araucaria

@snailplane Ah that works:D (Just tried it out). The computers at work quite often don't recognise any IPA at all! :/

Anonymous

I have wished for a superscript schwa many times :-(

Anonymous

Unfortunately, Unicode doesn't seem to have one of those.

Anonymous

I mean, parenthesizing a schwa is just as good as writing it in superscript, as long as you tell people what you mean by it. But when I'm typing up a source, I always try to preserve the original typographical conventions if I can.

Anonymous

@Araucaria We managed to get small capital Q into Unicode, though! We need it for Japanese phonemic transcriptions, as it's conventionally used for the moraic obstruent archiphoneme.

Anonymous

12:40

I was super excited about that :-) But it'll be a little while before it's supported on people's computers.

Araucaria

@snailplane Just found by experimenting that the superscript schwa from the second line in the second para from this page works in comments: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C6%8F

Anonymous

Oh! Wow!

Anonymous

Thank you so much :-)

Araucaria

Nice to be able to return the favour!

Anonymous

ˈaʊt lænd ə ǁ –ᵊr

Anonymous

12:42

It works! :-)

Araucaria

:-)

@snailplane I wish we had small caps on SE ...

M.A.R.

@Araucaria fsymbols.com/generators/smallcaps

Araucaria

@snailplane I think genre is often cited as the only Englishy word (obviously its a loan originally) to have zh in a syllable onset.

@M.A.R. Wow! That's very cool indeed!!!

sᴍᴀʟʟ ᴄᴀᴘs ʀᴜʟᴇ!

I can properly mark up quotes from OED now! :) And use them instead of horrible ITALIC CAPS FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF NEW TERMS!

Anonymous

@Araucaria Oh, great example! I thought there was at least one common word I was forgetting.

Anonymous

Let's ping @Alex89 so they can see the genre example.

Anonymous

12:58

@Araucaria Another reason to cite LPD in this case is because Wells mentions the possibility of a glottal consonant in /ðə ˈæpl/.

Araucaria

@snailplane Yes, quite true. I don't think anyone regularly uses /ðə/ before vowels without a hard attack. That would sound really weird.

Anonymous

I know Wells is not on board with the explanation I'm about to give, but the way I think of it, in /ði ˈæpl/ we avoid hiatus because the transition from /i/ to /æ/ creates a small (non-phonemic) glide. For speakers who have /ðə ˈæpl/, it's probably really [ðə ˈʔæpl], because [ʔ] resolves hiatus.

Anonymous

And we need it because the glide is not produced between [ə] and [æ].

Araucaria

@snailplane I think I agree with you on that. How do you know that Wells isn't on board with that?

Anonymous

He has a blog post somewhere where he discusses the idea of these epenthetic glides, but I don't have a link handy.

Anonymous

13:03

Let's see if I can google it up.

Anonymous

Oh, here's the post I'm thinking of: phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/08/linking-semivowels.html

Anonymous

I've never been particularly good at phonetics, but I think in this case that the idea of glide insertion is at the very least useful as a concept to explain the distribution of [ʔ].

Anonymous

You can find it in other positions when speakers need to avoid hiatus, for example when they say a rather than an but need to say a word that begins with a vowel, for example because they changed their minds about which word to say.

Anonymous

And I think that explanation can be useful for learners.

Anonymous

Maybe restated with a bit less jargon :-)

Araucaria

13:16

@snailplane Yes, I was aware of the dubiousness of linking w and j. But there's a slight difference in this case because we see an alternation between the two weak forms of the (as we do with to and a(n)) which definitely is sensitive to whether the following segment is a vowel or a consonant. So the idea that the glottal is there to stop a vowel to vowel transition is motivated in this case, it seems to me - even if there is no hard evidence for intervocalic glides

.... in other environments. :-)

I think there is some motivation for linking w and j, because in rhotic Englishes, at least, it only appears to occur in instances where intusive /r/ doesn't occur ...

@snailplane And I think that /w/ and /j/ are sensitive to the oncoming vowel. So a syllable onset /w/ need only be higher and more rounded than the following vowel, it seems to me. So in *what* we can have a really quite wide apperture between the lips, but in *woops* it has to be very close indeed because /ʊ/ is already very close and the apperture very small. Same applies to /j/, it seems to me. So when John says " the supposed “[ʲ]” in my arms merely represents the point of maximum upward excursus of the tongue body as it moves from [a] through [ɪ] towards [ɑ]. How could one possibly de…

user62015

@M.A.R. @snailplane What option will you choose here?, I choosed "must have"

You might have told me it was his birthday. I would have bought him a present.

might have

must have

would have

Answer says might have

You ______ told me it was his birthday. I would have bought him a present.

M.A.R.

Actually, 'should have' sounds best, but it's not even given.

Araucaria

@snailplane ... because as w and a j are basicaly always slightly higher back or front vowels than the following vowels. But, of course, that's just my own wild conjecturing ... I'll ask John when I see him this summer, if I can get him alone for long enough, that is.

user62015

13:31

I agree

userr2684291

@user62015 s/choosed/chose/

user62015

Oh @userr2684291

Sorry

But what do you think about must have?

userr2684291

@user62015 What does the following sentence imply – that the person knew about it, or that they did not?

@user62015 From "I would have bought him a present." you can infer that they hadn't known about it, and they didn't buy anything.

@user62015 So none of your propositions works.

M.A.R.

@userr2684291 'work'

userr2684291

@M.A.R. Both work.

M.A.R.

13:42

Using it as singular sounds weird to me

userr2684291

@M.A.R. dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/quantifiers/… I don't know how correct this usage note is, but: "In formal styles, we use none of with a singular verb when it is the subject. However, in informal speaking, people often use plural verbs."

M.A.R.

Meh, I've seen both, but always prefer plural

userr2684291

@M.A.R. They're interchangeable to my ear.

M.A.R.

!!flip/my ear

userr2684291

@M.A.R. Nice try, though. :>

@M.A.R. ɹɐǝ ʎɯ

M.A.R.

13:48

O.O

!!wiki/ear

Where art thou? q-q

userr2684291

@M.A.R. Did you know you can italicize emoji? 😂

Araucaria

Ciao all!

skill patrol

Cya pal

M.A.R.

14:08

@userr2684291 which is like punching it in the emoji

userr2684291

14:31

@M.A.R. Punching what in?

Transcript for