Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

18:01

@StoneyB Literature is about language too, so it's on-topic in our chat room!

BTW, cats are also on-topic. :-)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So are molecules.

淖韶晋

And particles. ;>

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/32560/language-abstract

@淖韶晋 \o Welcome!

淖韶晋

o/

StoneyB

That's a very abstract Chat. A Chat from which all the actual Chat has been abstracted.

Damkerng T.

18:05

Not sure why the Abstract, perhaps it's a place we're suppose to write abstracts in.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Yes.

Please don't chat there.

StoneyB

Speaking of which, has anybody ever encountered this? Gospodin Samovar suggests it's a "grammar myth", but I'm not sure it can be dignified that way.

0

Q: Concrete nouns cannot be modified by abstract ones

Concrete nouns cannot be modified by abstract ones. I cannot understand this sentence. It does not mean that I cannot understand the meaning of this sentence, rather I cannot under what it teaches. Now I want help from the members of this site. Please, explain it as clear as possible. Or plea...

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I may have to move messages to LO or Cabin.

Damkerng T.

CopperKettle's example is a good counterexample.

StoneyB

mmm ... I tend to think of grammar as very concrete, but I'm prejudiced that way.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:09

@StoneyB What stuff do we categorize as grammar myths?

Damkerng T.

I find it more challenging to come up with a counterexample of an alternate myth: an abstract noun can't be modified by a concrete noun.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. When it's a myth and it's about grammar. :-)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Good. I wanted to make sure I'll dignify it correctly.

StoneyB

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I'd think a myth in the vulgar acceptance has to have more than one adherent.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB You can never know what crap South Asian English learners are taught.

And I can tell you they're more than one.

淖韶晋

“energy drink" could pass as abstract n. "energy" modifying the concrete "drink"

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

18:12

BTW @淖韶晋 do we know you from somewhere? Or, is it your first time in this chat?

淖韶晋

first time

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

"Cold fusion"

Damkerng T.

Welcome to the room!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Oh wait. That doesn't work.

淖韶晋

"Unemployment line" may work as well.

"conspiracy theorist" if "conspiracy" is abstract, I'm unsure

StoneyB

18:18

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Sure I can. It's the same crap US high school students are taught.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB Not likely.

StoneyB

A-C: "Beauty parlor". C-A: "Family strife"

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. It's not a deliberate crap. Non-native English speakers, even then they're teachers with rich experience, adhere to some rule-of-thumbs, and this will lead to mistakes. No big deal. (Not a big deal?)

淖韶晋

"Customer service associate", ”Death wish", "Enhancement drugs", "Inflation craze", "Luxury car", “Peace rally", "Childhood toys", "Victory chant", I think the list goes on haha

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle Big deal for me since I couldn't persuade the idiot last year that 'world record' is a perfectly valid NP.

StoneyB

18:26

My question is who is promulgating a doctrine which is on its face entirely false? What misunderstanding prompted someone to advance this inanity?

淖韶晋

@StoneyB kind of related question but do you usually have this extensive of a vocabulary?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB You see, imagine you're lost on a road. You're trying to figure out how to go to north. The only option you got is speculating. What if you speculated wrong? There's no one to tell you that.

@淖韶晋 Yes. That's our guy.

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Our teacher corrected "most important" to "the most important one", because "most should always take the". See. There's some logic here, an attempt to have some guideline. I do not consider her an idiot, she is quite good at teaching.

淖韶晋

haha. I haven't heard "promulgating" or "inanity" at all

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

ELLers here have no problem in boasting about how they have mastered English easily. They, however, dunno any better grammar book than "English grammar in Use".

@CopperKettle The problem isn't the rules. It's the people that adhere to them.

BTW I don't call him idiot for that reason.

There are amusing stories behind it. :)

CopperKettle

18:33

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. The only reason I'd call an erring teacher an idiot is when they are mean-tempered.

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. haha, I've no grammar textbooks at all. I have to write grammar guides for myself for learning Chinese.

CopperKettle

@淖韶晋 Aren't there any available in English?

淖韶晋

@CopperKettle There

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle Well, the guy just lacked iodine. I can't tell anything else. He clearly had a low IQ.

淖韶晋

there are

StoneyB

18:34

@CopperKettle Fersher, but that's at least based on experience.

淖韶晋

Sorry, I accidentally hit the enter key, haha. I've no money to buy textbooks either.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I never call real teachers—i.e. people who I learned one single word from—anything negative.

淖韶晋

Usually take reference from online books/guides and put them into ways I can understand.

StoneyB

@淖韶晋 Bad grammar books are much worse than no grammar books at all.

CopperKettle

A snapshot of a translation textbook. Riddled with errors. (0:

淖韶晋

18:39

"for timber supports in mine." that bugs me.

@CopperKettle what's the source language?

CopperKettle

@淖韶晋 It's an exercise from a textbook for English-to-Russian translation.

@淖韶晋 "timber supports" seemed okayish to me, but I'm not a native speaker.

I would use "wood(en?)", probably.

淖韶晋

@CopperKettle the problem with that was "timber supports in mine"

CopperKettle

ah, it should be in mines.

淖韶晋

should be plural "mines"

haha, yeah

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@淖韶晋 It's good to know some linguistic background of the people in this room. Are a native English speaker? If so, what dialect?

CopperKettle

18:42

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I'm a native english speaker

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Yes?

Nice.

淖韶晋

Hit the enter key accidentally haha

CopperKettle

They are from Pennsylvania.

Penn's Woods

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Added 淖韶晋 to the list of this room's native speakers.

淖韶晋

18:44

haha, yep @CopperKettle

CopperKettle

The birthplace of the oil industry.

淖韶晋

I'm learning Mandarin Chinese (普通话) now.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

So we got Jasper, TC, Stoney, Snail and <some Chinese stuff> as the current native speakers of this chat.

淖韶晋

ahahah

CopperKettle

(0:

淖韶晋

18:46

I originally thought Chinese was going to be really difficult, but it's proving to be a very simple language, actually

CopperKettle

Simple? O_o

My sister tried it and dropped it very soon, it was so impenetrable.

淖韶晋

Eh, it takes a lot of dedication

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

[tag:ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ]

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ No working.

淖韶晋

I'm self-teaching and my sister (who is majoring in Chinese, first year) said I could probably go right into Chinese 102 and skip 101 if I went into college right now

CopperKettle

Nice!

淖韶晋

18:50

I talk with native Chinese people learning English, and I feel any language is much easier to learn by speaking with natives rather than being in a class

But don't get me wrong - classes are still important

CopperKettle

nods

(busy reading; BBL, guys)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:13

@Dam I'm going to write some stuff in the LA (Language Abstract :P) so that you could see the template.

Damkerng T.

All right!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Oh, I thought you were asleep.

Damkerng T.

I'm around. Just not on this tab.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

K. K.

淖韶晋

I tried writing guides for Chinese in word processors, but they never look good, so I have to use LaTeX typesetting, which is becoming annoying

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:16

@淖韶晋 LaTeX is never annoying. ಠ_ಠ

BTW what part of it is annoying?

The fact that it doesn't process as soon as you type, like word processors?

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I'm new to it though >m<

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@淖韶晋 I'm new to it too! \o/

淖韶晋

\o/

I'm trying to find a more gui-based editor for LaTeX :v

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

What's your OS?

淖韶晋

Ubuntu Linux

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:21

That I can't help with. But

tchrist

What's the opposite of a rep-cap?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@tchrist cep-rap

How would you find an antonym for a sense of the coinage?

526

Q: LaTeX Editors/IDEs

What editors/IDEs are available for easing the process of writing TeX/LaTeX documents? Please state some useful features like code completion, spell checking, building final DVI or PDF files, etc. This question is undergoing a systematic refurbishment, see Let’s polish the Editors/IDEs questi...

editors big-list ide

@淖韶晋 ^

tchrist

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. A cap is a garment you wear on your head, or a device for covering up a bottle so that things don’t spill out of its top.

Perhaps a rep-plug would be the bottom version.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I personally use TeXmaker, but they say it's better for Win OS.

@tchrist rep-spine then.

tchrist

Spine?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:25

Rep-shorts?

I dunno.

tchrist

Oh right.

Panties. :)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Where are you trying to use such word anyway?

tchrist

Rep-aunties.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. To describe a mythical limit to how much you can lose through downvotes.

淖韶晋

if you need the bottom, I would assume rep-floor

tchrist

Perfect!

Thanks!

淖韶晋

19:26

no problem

:>

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

TeXmaker, I think, does have an Ubuntu version though.

tchrist

My brain isn't working too well in English. Last night I spent four hours with it in Spanish and this morning I spent three hours with it in Portuguese.

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. yep, I just installed it

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@淖韶晋 So quick.

淖韶晋

@tchrist, mental thoughts in different languages?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:28

@淖韶晋 Meditations.

淖韶晋

ah.

tchrist

@淖韶晋 Are not all thoughts mental ones?

淖韶晋

haha, probably should have just said "thoughts"

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

You sir, were being redundant in using redundant redundancy.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

19:56

in English Language Learners, Feb 13 '13 at 18:35, by Mistu4u

@StoneyB, With all due respect Sir, Do you always speak so ornamental language like now?

LOL

Hullo @Stoney. I've failed to find anything useful in the first chatroom's transcript.

StoneyB

How will learners master English if we give them nothing but Dick-and-Jane cliches to emulate?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB They don't learn. That's the thing.

StoneyB

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I am shocked, shocked, I tell you!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB Well, only in the first two months, at least. :)

StoneyB

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Who was around in those days?

淖韶晋

20:03

Ugh. I'm unsure if this one Chinese sentence I made is right because of the placement of 了 - “移居美国以前，他住在了中国。” / "Before moving to America, he lived in China."

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB Wendi, Mechanical @Snail, Cerberus, Kiam, and I caught sightings of you.

2013/2/17 @Snail was sighted.

Oh, and Mitsu4u

StoneyB

MechanicalSnail only lasted a couple weeks. Kiam's off running two other sites, and Mistu hasn't been active for over a year, but the other guys are still around.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Most of the transcript for Feb 2013 is "this chat is empty, just like now".

StoneyB

We were too busy answering questions.

In the site's first three months we wrote nearly 3000 answers, half of them by just 16 people.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

20:20

Wow.

StoneyB

5 of those 16 are still active: Me, J.R., FumbleFingers, Wendi and Snail.

Anonymous

I didn't know about ELL before it launched!

Anonymous

I wasn't following English.SE at that point, although I had posted a dumb question or two, I think :-)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@snailboat I saw your "what's this 7" question the other day.

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. A lot of my questions tend to be kind of silly, because I most often ask things when I'm confused :-)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

20:33

That smiley.

Anonymous

:-)

Anonymous

Sorry, it's a really old habit I've never broken. I tend to type smileys when I'm smiling, and I'm a nervous smiler!

StoneyB

@snailboat You caught on quick - you were one of the 16.

Anonymous

@StoneyB I was actually excited when I saw there was a site for people learning English :-)

StoneyB

I don't think you had a keel in those days, though.

Anonymous

20:34

I would engage in vehicular polymorphism more often, but I don't want to confuse people again :-)

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Your new form is quite symmetrical!

StoneyB

Aww ... I was looking forward to the snailcycle.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@snailboat :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Take that. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

Anonymous

@StoneyB A couple folks were lobbying me for snailhovercraft a little while back.

StoneyB

Perhaps a snailgue?

Anonymous

20:37

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Wow! You were saving my smileys all this time!

Anonymous

I had no idea.

StoneyB

[How long before he picks this whole thing up and moves it into the other room?]

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB That's @Dam not me. I governz the Cabin.

淖韶晋

Ew, this Chinese sentence is weird: 我一分钟以前刚刚看到他！

not sure about two time-related words stuck together.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

An answer \o/ ell.stackexchange.com/questions/75001/…

淖韶晋

20:43

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

LaTeX typesetting makes this guide look good, haha

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

What?

淖韶晋

(i keep on hitting the enter key accidentally :< )

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. imgur.com/xl1SBr7 here's what I have so far :p

Anonymous

@Usernew No, she was saying that "It's not (pronounced like 'yatch')" :-)

Anonymous

In yacht, the ‹ch› portion isn't pronounced.

Anonymous

The word rhymes with hot.

tchrist

20:53

Well, with baht certainly.

It rhymes that way for me, too, of course. I just know it doesn’t for everyone.

Anonymous

Who doesn't it?

tchrist

People who have the CLOTH vowel there.

淖韶晋

IPA /jɑt/ for AmE

Anonymous

I gave IPA yesterday, but it seemed to be ineffective :-)

淖韶晋

haha

tchrist

20:54

Like most Commonwealth speakers and some Americans.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Copper I'm hitting the realm of dreams. If you had further questions, just ping me in chat.

The point is proving that zero-article 'noble gases' exists, not that it's more common.

It's certainly more common among chemists, my intuition says, but chemists don't speak for the whole language.

tchrist

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Would you like to hear the difference between reverie and reveille?

:)

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@tchrist As a sleeping potion?

tchrist

Reverie is dreamland, while reveille is the bugle that wakes you from it.

But they differ only in the liquid.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

As a turk, it's always challenging for me to pronounce stuff with more than two <r>'s.

tchrist

20:57

The rest of the sounds are the same.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Since when are you a Turk?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I just end up softening it into something incomprehensible.

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. like "irriversible"?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@tchrist Good question. Lemme check.

Yesterday.

@淖韶晋 This one is a minor foe.

tchrist

agriculturer

arbitrarily

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Mix it with <l>, and there comes heaven.

Irrelevant

Entrepreneur

淖韶晋

21:00

in arbitrarily, "rar" sounds a bit like "rare"

tchrist

cranberry-gatherers

淖韶晋

@tchrist

tchrist

extraordinary rendition

hydrochlorofluorocarbon

淖韶晋

now you're just pushing it

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Roller

tchrist

21:01

mourning ground warbler

pentaerythritol tetranitrate

Anonymous

Why would yacht and hot end up on opposite sides of the ʟᴏᴛ-ᴄʟᴏᴛʜ split, though? They both end in /t/

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. here's a fun one: dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane

tchrist

refrigerator

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@淖韶晋 Mind you, we're trying to find all my weaknesses overnight.

@tchrist Not this one. Since I'm a chemist.

tchrist

reverberatory

rhyparographer

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

21:03

@淖韶晋 Not this one either.

淖韶晋

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. using "we're" like that is odd, you can't say "we were" with "we're"

tchrist

vertebrarterial

淖韶晋

rewriter

tchrist

retropresbyteral

StoneyB

parergon

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

21:04

@淖韶晋 But I meant 'we are'.

Overnight is the adv. that doesn't fit.

tchrist

prothonotary warbler

淖韶晋

oh

overnight sounds like a noun there

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. web.csulb.edu/~nhall2/dissimilation_paper.pdf

tchrist

remurder

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

But I'm too lazy for correct use of stuff right now.

淖韶晋

21:06

martyr

rereleaser

StoneyB

rear admiral

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Rerelease O_O

tchrist

Murderers’ Row

淖韶晋

recorrect

Anonymous

In table 2 in that paper, all of the words from reservoir on up sound perfectly normal to me with the /r/ elided.

淖韶晋

21:08

resurrect

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Sleep tight!

淖韶晋

resurrector

tchrist

riroriro

reperforator

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@tchrist win

淖韶晋

you cannot tell me riroriro is a word

tchrist

21:09

> riroriro /ˈriːroʊriːroʊ/.
Etymology: Maori.

Also (with hyphen) riro-riro. The New Zealand grey warbler, Gerygone igata, a small wren-like bird belonging to the subfamily Malurinæ of the family Muscicapidæ.

1835 W. Yate Acct. N.Z. (ed. 2) ii. 58 ― Riroriro, a very small brown bird, with white feathers under the wings and tail.
1860 [see fan-tail sb. 3].
1884 M. A. Martin Our Maoris viii. 125 ― There is a little bird called Riro-riro in New Zealand from its note.
1939 D. Cresswell Present without Leave 32 ― The riro-riro··has a small wistful song.

淖韶晋

oh my lord

tchrist

@淖韶晋 I most certainly can. And have.

Twice even.

淖韶晋

wait

Anonymous

> [The table] also omits Worcestershire sauce, because subjects had around a dozen different pronunciations of this word.

淖韶晋

rotisserie

referrers

terrier

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