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Anonymous

23:10

What do you all think about reopening this question?

Anonymous

0

Q: how to pronounce words 'baths' in actual conversation?

I was confused by the pronunciation of consonant cluster 'ths' at the end of the word. For example: the cluster 'ths' in word months, according to ESL teaching videos on Youtube,video for months' pronunciation on youtube can be pronounced as /ths/(which is the pronunciation listed in most of the...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's not saying that.

Anonymous

It's saying that there's a choice: if it's a preposition, then it must have some sort of ellipted object.

Anonymous

That's because traditional grammar demands that prepositions be transitive.

Anonymous

Or it could be an adverb.

Anonymous

23:12

Traditional grammar classifies (what we call in post-Jespersen grammar) intransitive prepositions as adverbs, so if there's no ellipted object, then it must be an adverb instead.

Anonymous

But it doesn't pattern like an adverb, so that's an iffy analysis.

Damkerng T.

I think things like ellipsis or phrasal verbs must've existed before Jespersen's books.

Anonymous

Right.

Anonymous

But the author is explaining why both the elliptical PP and non-elliptical AdvP analyses don't work, one at a time.

Anonymous

The part you quoted doesn't address the AdvP analysis, but he does that further down.

Anonymous

23:15

Well, there wasn't really a good analysis of phrasal verbs in traditional grammar, to be honest.

Anonymous

And Jespersen actually probably predates the concept.

Anonymous

Now that I think about it.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I thought I've already voted to reopen it. Did I click the wrong button or something?!

Oh, I see! I voted to "Leave Open".

Anonymous

I don't see any reopen votes. Ah, I see.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Thanks! Now it's in the reopen vote queue.

Damkerng T.

23:18

@snailplane Yay! :D

Anonymous

I could reopen it unilaterally but I'm reluctant to override the community without, well, consulting the community and seeing if people agree first :-)

Damkerng T.

Can you vote like other users now that you're a moderator? I don't know if the user-interface for moderators is different, and in how many ways.

Lawrence

@snailplane Seems to be a genuine, detailed, researched question. I'd vote to reopen if I could.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. No, I can't vote to reopen. I can reopen, but I can't vote :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Good thing I'm not a moderator, then. ;-)

Anonymous

23:24

So I have to be careful how I use my close/reopen ability, but if I feel strongly I can do either one without anyone else voting.

Anonymous

Thing is, though, I think moderators are supposed to follow the community consensus, so when there's doubt, I want to talk to people in the community and see.

Anonymous

So if I feel like there's community support for reopening, I can outright reopen it, whether or not you voted. So @Lawrence, I can take your opinion into account, even though you can't reopen yourself.

Anonymous

I feel fairly certain @Araucaria would vote to reopen if he were here.

Damkerng T.

Speaking of which, we haven't seen Araucaria for a while.

He must be busy with his conditional paper. :D

Lawrence

@snailplane :) . Before you reopen it, let's discuss the given close-reason: "Basic questions on spelling, meaning or pronunciation are off-topic as they should be answered using a dictionary. ..."

Anonymous

23:28

@Lawrence This is a question on pronunciation, but I don't consider it basic, nor do I consider it answerable by a dictionary.

Anonymous

Dictionaries generally give what is called a careful pronunciation.

Lawrence

... I think the question could do with an edit to give it just a slight nudge. It's almost there, as it is.

Anonymous

They don't necessarily apply rapid speech rules, consonant cluster reduction, assimilation, and so on.

Lawrence

@snailplane Adding that to the question would be a sufficient nudge.

Damkerng T.

"how to pronounce words 'baths' in actual conversation?", grammar aside, is a rather good title, I think. -- The part actual makes it clear, at least to me.

BTW...

Lawrence

23:32

To me, the complexity lies in the OP's search for an explanation, not a statement of simple fact.

Damkerng T.

Word of the Day: remunerative

Anonymous

@Lawrence I think I might put my reasoning in a comment instead.

Anonymous

> I am going to reopen this question. Dictionaries generally present what is called a careful pronunciation, not necessarily taking into account fast speech rules, consonant cluster reduction, assimilation, and so on. It is clear to me from the title that the OP wants to know about the actual pronunciation, not the careful pronunciation we use in theory. They might be the same in this particular case, but that information belongs in an answer, not in a close reason.

Anonymous

Something like that?

Damkerng T.

Looks good to me. :D

Lawrence

23:37

@snailplane I'd be happy with that. I feel that the question should be allowed on Learners, and it's just a matter of trying to work out exactly why.

I thought pronouncing the ths cluster in "months" as just s was non-standard, particularly with the american-accent tag.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Personally, I think this kind of question is exactly the right kind of question on ELL.

Anonymous

Poor OP, though. They wrote /th/, which doesn't make any sense.

Damkerng T.

nods

Lawrence

@snailplane It's called Learners for a good reason :) . Such things can be corrected in the answers.

Anonymous

English has two phonemes represented by the digraph ‹th›, and these are transcribed /θ/ and /ð/. Since forward slashes indicate a phonemic transcription, it's not possible to transcribe both with one symbol (or one digraph).

Anonymous

23:41

@Lawrence Yes, I agree :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane More unfortunately, I think they picked the wrong video on YouTube.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Also unfortunate!

Lawrence

@snailplane As a non-linguist, I wouldn't have noticed a problem with that /th/ (no vowel?). Looking at the question again, I don't see any reference to /th/ - there is one to /ts/, though.

Damkerng T.

There is /baths/ in the question.

Anonymous

> can be pronounced as /ths/

Lawrence

23:45

@Max I already add a link for months — Henry Wang 14 hours ago

Anonymous

But it doesn't make sense to write /th/, because we have two different phonemes represented by ‹th›, so it doesn't tell you how to pronounce it.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence Which, IMHO, is not a very good choice.

Anonymous

One is voiced, the other voiceless. Breath has the voiceless sound, while breathe has the voiced sound.

Kinzle B

Hello, fellas!

Damkerng T.

Good morning! @KinzleB

Lawrence

23:46

@KinzleB Hi!

Kinzle B

You are all early birds! :)

Anonymous

We have a phonemic contrast between them, as in thistle versus this'll, so if we're giving a phonemic transcription, we need to say which sound is used.

Damkerng T.

Oh, you know I'm a night owl. :D

Lawrence

@snailplane Heh. I see. It should have been obvious, in hindsight. :)

Anonymous

@KinzleB Hello again! Welcome back to ELL chat. It's currently almost five in the afternoon where I live (California, in the United States). As it happens, I am a bit of an early bird, but it's not early at the moment :-)

Anonymous

23:49

@Lawrence Native speakers often don't notice we have two different ‹th› sounds, because we never had to pay conscious attention, and the way we think about language is very much influenced by our orthography. Non-native speakers all need to know the difference between the two, though, so it's very important.

Lawrence

@snailplane Somehow, I thought you were in Japan - I was wondering why their trains weren't going to schedule. :)

Anonymous

Oh, the land of trains on time! :-)

Anonymous

I am currently in California.

Lawrence

@snailplane Yes. It's 'obvious' how /th/ sounds - it sounds the way it should! :P

... Nevermind that the pronunciation changes between words. :)

Anonymous

@Lawrence Yes, we literate native speakers all know how to pick the right sound without thinking about it when we see that digraph :-)

Anonymous

23:51

Just like we know when to use the and when to use the, even though they're spelled the same way.

Kinzle B

@snailplane Congrats on your new status! @snailplane I noticed you have joined the chat more than before. :)

Anonymous

@KinzleB Ah, thank you :-) I am trying to make sure I'm available in chat on a daily basis.

Lawrence

@snailplane Yup, and zero articles and null articles, even when they're not there. :)

Damkerng T.

Or bank and bank are spelled the same and sound the same. :D

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. XD

Anonymous

23:53

2

Q: What does being hyped means

I saw the word hype and as far as i know by now it means being excited, but im not sure with such sketchy information i found I was wondering if i could use it to say (The new scream queens season is premiered today) OMG im so hyped up Is it correct? I know i can use something like "im so thril...

meaning

Anonymous

"All aboard the hype train"!

Anonymous

More English slang :-)

Damkerng T.

OMG im so hyped up -- LOL :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Some people (mostly kids) lately use hype as an adjective. That's hype!

Anonymous

Or as an interjection: Hype, hype!

Kinzle B

23:55

I happened to read this: forum.wordreference.com/threads/… That's a very interesting post. I'd like to hear what other native speakers would think of it.

Anonymous

I have to admit I'm not always 100% sure how to describe what it means.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Maybe they use it as a noun! :P

Kinzle B

The example sentence with "I am comfortable to speak" is not correct. But I got lots of attested examples on the web.

Anonymous

Some adjectives license a to-infinitival complement: I'm ready to take that test!

Anonymous

Others do not: *I'm comfortable to take that test! ← ungrammatical

Lawrence

23:56

@snailplane Mispronunciation of "hip" in hip, hip, hurrah? :)

Anonymous

Unfortunately, you have to learn which ones are which.

Anonymous

@KinzleB I don't see many examples. I searched for "i am comfortable to" on Google Search, and I found only 36 results, and they generally sounded like non-native speech to me.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I feel comfortable to take that test is okay, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It sounds ungrammatical to me.

Anonymous

Just my personal judgment.

Anonymous

23:58

Comfortable works with V-ing, though.

Kinzle B

I searched "I am comfortable to speak". Google generates numerous examples. I got haunted.

Lawrence

@KinzleB "I am happy to do that ... is not said" - I'm not sure I agree, particularly if phrased as "I would be happy to do that".

Anonymous

Oh, I'm sorry, I typed the wrong thing into chat just now. "I am comfortable to speak" is the same thing I searched for on Google.

Anonymous

When I click through to page 4, I see only 36 results.

Anonymous

@Lawrence Oh, good catch! Yes, I agree with you.

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