Language Overflow

Anonymous

15:00

@DamkerngT. How do you say it? Can you supply a Leipzig gloss?

Damkerng T.

พระอาทิตย์-ขึ้น-ทาง-(ทิศ-)ตะวันออก ~ [sun-rise-way-(direction-)east]

This "way" (ทาง) is the same word we use when saying something like ฉันเดินไปตามทาง (lit.) "I walked along the way".

Anonymous

The word in parens is optional?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

And it's a noun?

Damkerng T.

Including it sounds a little more formal.

Anonymous

15:02

Neat :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Way? Hmm... I think it's a noun in "I walked along the way".

But in this [sun-rise-way-east], I'm not sure!

Maybe it's kind of a preposition!

Anonymous

Oh! :-)

Avicenna

@CowperKettle So sorry for my interrupted chat. We have some guests, so I need to talk be with them.

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. I'm not sure what story that is, but the body language seems to support your guess. :)

Anonymous

Maybe from is neither especially common nor uncommon.

Damkerng T.

15:06

@snailplane BTW, I'm more familiar with lipstick gloss than Leipzig gloss. :P

@Lawrence The teacher was a very bad boy himself. :P

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/glossing-rules.php

Anonymous

Often just called an inter linear gloss. The stuff you see in lots of ling papers.

Anonymous

My phone added a space to interlinear without asking. Bad phone! No cookie.

Damkerng T.

:D

Avicenna

@snailplane :D

CowperKettle

15:09

@Avicenna No problem, Avi! I'm also busy now. I've registered for an Understanding Clinical Statistics course and am trying to understand how this online course thing works.

Anonymous

I'm on a train.

Avicenna

@snailplane wow I love trains. Doo doo chii chii. Train sound children make in Iran.

CowperKettle

Who does not love them?

Avicenna

@CowperKettle Must be difficault!

Lawrence

@snailplane Yay, you finally caught one!

Avicenna

15:12

@CowperKettle yes, such lovely creatures!

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

From the most recent movie I've watched (Bridge of Spies):
Do you know anyone from "lip-zig"?
"Leipzig." Am I getting hate mail from Germany now?

:D

CowperKettle

> I'm on a plain. I can't complain. (remember this line from 1995)

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. Bad influence!!!

:D

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. That would explain it. :)

Avicenna

15:14

@CowperKettle Turn off your phone, Internet connection.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence But he turned out to be a great teacher in the end. :D

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. So good influence!

Lawrence

@DamkerngT. All's well that ends well, eh?

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence I suppose you could say that. :D

Avicenna

@Lawrence Yeah!

Damkerng T.

15:16

@Avicenna :D

Lawrence

:)

CowperKettle

(0:

Avicenna

:-)

Damkerng T.

Who would understand bad boys' (and girls') problems better than a (or an ex-)bad boy? :D

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. And girl!

Damkerng T.

15:17

@Avicenna Yes!

Avicenna

@CowperKettle I am thinking about a good book to translate. A book about 80, or 90 pages!

CowperKettle

@Avicenna Into Farsi?

Avicenna

Yes.

Lawrence

It's been fun chatting today. Keep up the good cheer. Bye!

CowperKettle

@Avicenna You may start with short stories.

Avicenna

15:22

@Lawrence bye! :-)

@CowperKettle Oh! Good idea.

Damkerng T.

@Lawrence o/

CowperKettle

I took books titled like "100 best new US short stories" and tried translating some

I mean, in the local English library

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna A robot proudly presents:

amazon.com/Iron-Man-Ted-Hughes/dp/0571226124

It's 80 pages. :D

(What would you expect from a robot, eh? :-)

CowperKettle

I translated Capote's "My Side of the Matter" into Russian

And a couple of stories by Raymond Carver

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. Thank you proud iron man. (Read it like a robot)

Damkerng T.

15:24

:D

Anonymous

@Avicenna Le Petit Prince!

CowperKettle

Le Petit Prince has surely been translated a dozen times into Farsi..

Anonymous

I'm sure. Did you mean a book that's never been translated before?

Avicenna

@snailplane Yes, I want such book.

CowperKettle

There are thousands of great English short stories that remain untranslated

Damkerng T.

15:25

Ah, Lexile Measure: 760L. Probably a little bit too easy.

(Now I wonder about the lexile measure of Le Petit Prince!)

No such info! How come!

o/ @Man_From_India

Man_From_India

Hi @DamkerngT.. Just placed an order for OMEG on Amazon :-)

not the ebook

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Nice, either way!

Man_From_India

:-) let's see how the book turns out.

Avicenna

@Man_From_India I like real books much more than ebooks.

CowperKettle

@Avicenna Raymond Carver's stories are written in a very simple English, by the way. They are minimalistic. Maybe some have not been yet translated into Farsi

Man_From_India

15:32

@Avicenna Same here. I ordered dead-tree version.

Avicenna

@Man_From_India We tree killers!

CowperKettle

I'm planning to by an e-reader based on E-ink

Avicenna

@CowperKettle I should take a look! Thank you.

@CowperKettle E-ink?

CowperKettle

@Avicenna Check out his poem Happiness. It is blank verse, so one does not have to trouble oneself with rhyme

Anonymous

I'm not sure this should remain open: ell.stackexchange.com/q/100436/230

CowperKettle

15:37

@Avicenna Electronic Ink (0:

Man_From_India

@CowperKettle Kindle is really good, but still I'm not very comfortable with it compared to the traditional books.

Anonymous

I like paper better too.

Anonymous

Ebooks are undeniably convenient, though.

CowperKettle

I like paper too, but for the sake of trees I'm ready to use a tablet pc or an e-reader. And for the sake of reading downloaded stuff in a lie-down position

Avicenna

@CowperKettle So lovely! And also Avi-friendly! Thank you!:-)

CowperKettle

15:40

@Avicenna It might sound great in Farsi! (0:

Avicenna

Yes, indeed!

Damkerng T.

> I would have been able to comment had this still been in EL&U , where it should have remained because it's an interesting grammatical question, so you'll have to settle for a short answer.

In an answer!

Avicenna

Oh! Gotta go again! See you all.

CowperKettle

Bye!

Damkerng T.

See you!

Anonymous

15:43

They never updated their post with a specific question.

Anonymous

I think it's Unclear What They're Asking.

Damkerng T.

I don't know if we can really help them if "Cambridge English Grammar in USE By Raymond Murphy" can't help them and they can't bring their current understanding out into the question.

CowperKettle

> Site policy: we don't help undermurphs

> Apply for help if you're at or above Murphy comprehension grade

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle I'm sure you wouldn't mean so. :-)

CowperKettle

15:58

@DamkerngT. No. I'm strongly against discrimination on any grounds, including the person's Murphorientation

Damkerng T.

I think it's possible that a learner may still don't understand the usage after reading a grammar book, but it they can't tell us what they think after reading the book (except for "I need help!" or "I can't 'handle' it"), I wonder if anyone can help them.

CowperKettle

They should just... read books and forget about this difference for a while.. for 3-5 books, say.

Damkerng T.

nods

@CowperKettle BTW, Murphorientation!

CowperKettle

nods

The guy who leads the online Statistics Course

Juan Klopper

Head of Acute Surgery Unit

Cool..

Damkerng T.

ASU and statistics?

CowperKettle

16:08

They offer an official paid certificate

@DamkerngT. I'm surprised too.

2000 rubles, which is about $30

And I can volunteer and translate the subtitles.

Into Russian.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

CowperKettle

This is the course:

coursera.org/learn/epidemiology

Damkerng T.

Ahh... statistics is necessary if we want to find Patient Zero!

CowperKettle

> We'll end off by looking and evaluating accuracy of test results. Now, that's concepts such as sensitivity, space efficity, predictor values, odds ratios, and many more. (A new word!)

> Patient zero may refer to: In medical science, the index case or initial patient in the population of an epidemiological investigation

CowperKettle

16:36

> I'm a retired pediatrician. Often read journal articles when researching a topic of interest. For years have wished I understood more about the data analysis and statistics, so this sounded like a good way to start.

Such different people there.

From students to psychiatrists to retired doctors

It's a good way to engage people, making them write such introductions. Engagement is crucial because it's all online.

Cardinal

16:49

What topics of statics will the professor discuss? sounds interesting.

I just checked Epidemiology

there were a lot of weird English things involved!

@DamkerngT. Patient Zero? What is that?

CowperKettle

@Cardinal They do not go deep in statistics.. thus far it's types of clinical studies.

Or non-clinical even.

Observational

Cardinal

> The snail offered to take Doctor Dollitle and his friends all back to England inside his shell.

@snailplane

0

Q: What is this usage of this "that"?

The snail offered to take Doctor Dollitle and his friends all back to England inside his shell. "Goodness, what a chance, I'd love to go. To examine the floor of the ocean all the way from Brazil to Europe. No man ever did it before. What a glorious trip. Oh, that I have never allowed mys...

that

:-)

Damkerng T.

A very nice dialogue!

Cardinal

@CowperKettle I see.

Damkerng T.

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_case

Cardinal

17:02

@DamkerngT. It resurrects one of my questions! What does "condition zero" mean?

I used to play CS.16.

Damkerng T.

You mean Conditional Zero?

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. No, it is a game

Counter Strike Condition Zero

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal Oh, I see! I don't know. It sounds like a gamer thing.

Maybe it's like "no condition whatsoever".

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Condition%20Zero

I don't know if UD is correct on this one, but it sounds quite convincing.

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. Ah :-)

Damkerng T.

> Condition One, etc:
A system devised by Jeff Cooper for enumerating carry modes for the Colt 1911 and similar auto pistols. Condition One is cocked and locked; Condition Two is hammer down with a round in the chamber; Condition Three is with a loaded magazine, empty chamber; Condition Zero is with a round in the chamber, hammer cocked, safety disengaged.

> mcsm.org/gloss.html

Wow! It sounds almost like English conditionals!

Cardinal

17:08

:D

Anonymous

ELL: Bringing together overmurphs and undermurphs since 2013

2

Damkerng T.

Hehe! :D

Cardinal

@snailplane What does that mean?

CowperKettle

@snailplane (0: You have arrived at the destination?

Anonymous

They're terms Cowper made up :-)

CowperKettle

17:13

@Cardinal Look here

(0:

Anonymous

@CowperKettle That's ancient history. I'm already on the way to my next destination.

CowperKettle

@snailplane Nice! (0:

Damkerng T.

Murphians are to English Grammar in Use like Vernians are to Mystery Island!

(What am I, then? Maybe an Asimovian. :P)

CowperKettle

The Mysterious Island

The Mysterious Island (French: L'Île mystérieuse) is a novel by Jules Verne, published in 1874. The original edition, published by Hetzel, contains a number of illustrations by Jules Férat. The novel is a crossover sequel to Verne's famous Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea and In Search of the Castaways, though its themes are vastly different from those books. An early draft of the novel, initially rejected by Verne's publisher and wholly reconceived before publication, was titled Shipwrecked Family: Marooned With Uncle Robinson, seen as indicating the influence on the novel of Robinson Crusoe...

Cardinal

I thought I am the only one who uses CAGIU here

Damkerng T.

17:16

Ah, I misremembered the title!

Anonymous

@Cardinal You might be, but it's a very popular book, isn't it?

Anonymous

I'm sure many people on this site are in the process of inverting their murphorientation.

CowperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

An old answer of mine should be helpful: ell.stackexchange.com/a/26832/3281 — Damkerng T. 21 secs ago

Hmm... maybe it's a duplicate. Not sure.

Damkerng T.

17:58

1

Q: "have problems V-ing" such as "...Students have problems preparing for the IELTS test." Why is that?

I try to look up a book "Practical English Usage" (Michael Swan). Because I do not understand a sentence like the following one. "Students find it so easy to blame others or complain about their difficult situation when they have problems preparing for the IELTS test" The structure of the ...

gerund

Aww...

I don't think they will find a good explanation for this one in PEU.

And, ah, I'm not sure if I agree with StoneyB this time!

> Linguists would say that "The noun problems may take a subjectless gerund-participle clause" as a complement; ...

Hmm...

But this is not "problems that are preparing for the IELTS test"!

"problems (for someone who are) preparing for the IELTS test"?

I don't know. It's easier for me to understand "when they have problems preparing for the IELTS test" as "when they, preparing for the IELTS test, have problems". It's just that the original is more idiomatic.

(But, internally, I cheated(!), reading it as "when they have problems (while) preparing for the IELTS test". Hee :-)

"required to provide services to...." is a reduced clause modifying infrastructure. You can understand it as "(which is) required...", and as is repeats the "are absent" predicate, only in the singular, "as is (absent) the ..." — TRomano 43 mins ago

Oh, right! I should've read the sentence in full before posting my comment.

Still, it could be thought of an inversion. But I guess it's better to think of it as a fixed phrase.

"..., as is [ such that is required ] absent"

Ahmad

18:22

Hello @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Hi!

CowperKettle

18:50

> Response bias is when an individual is more likely respond if they possess a particular characteristic or set of characteristics. For example, HIV negative individuals may be more comfortable responding to a survey discussing their status compared to HIV positive individuals. A variety of technical difficulties or even age may also influence responders. Once bias exists in the group of responders, it can lead to seeing of the data and inappropriate conclusions can be drawn from the results.

"seeing of the data"?

Damkerng T.

Strange.

Færd

> 1 Have we met before?

> 2 Did we meet before?

> 3 Have we met earlier today?

> 4 Did we meet earlier today?

Do you think #3 is correct/natural? If not (which, spoiler alert, is probably the case), why?

Damkerng T.

All sentences are fine with me. I prefer #1 to #2. But I think #3 and #4 are equally fine, depending on what's in the speaker's mind.

Færd

in English Language & Usage, 58 mins ago, by Matt E. Эллен

I don't know. "have we met earlier" sounds wrong

in English Language & Usage, 51 mins ago, by Mitch

@Færd good question. I don't know. I'm mulling it over in my head. But you use did/earlier have/before, and not the other way.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Would he think the same if "today" was added?

Færd

18:59

Let me go check. I know I added it later on.

@DamkerngT. Yes, he would. He did.

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Færd

Yes!

Damkerng T.

FWIW, I think #3 fits someone who's really busy with his or her day better. (Like they can't recount everything that has happened since they woke up very well.)

Færd

Doesn't #2 sound AmE to you?

Damkerng T.

Yes, I think it sounds more AmE, but I think an AmE speaker may use either.

Færd

19:02

Mhm.

I read the very first messages that were posted in this room BTW. I didn't know it used to be your room.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Well, it's everyone's room now. :D

Færd

For a moment I felt like a guest.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Please don't be. Make yourself at home. :D

Færd

Yeah, I have done so!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

BTW, I'm recording Swimming to Cambodia right now.

I was browsing through channels on my TV, and I paused on this channel because of this movie. It was when the actor was talking about near the very beginning of the movie.

Færd

19:07

Is it a book? You're making an audiobook?

Damkerng T.

So I got curious.

Færd

Oh, a movie.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Oh, not like that. I just record it to my PVR (i.e., on a hard drive).

Færd

Recording TV programs sounds a bit dated!

Damkerng T.

@Færd An uncommon movie, even when you put the contents aside.

It's like he's talking single-handedly through the whole movie!

@Færd Hehe! I guess so.

It's still my main choice of media anyway.

Færd

19:09

Well, in what way does the film interest you?

Damkerng T.

I don't think I've run into a movie that has only one man talking alone through the whole movie before!

I thought I might've gotten bore after a couple minutes, but I did not.

But I was busy with something else, too, so I pressed the record button.

Anonymous

@Færd Probably not. Referential past time adjuncts don't usually work with the present perfect.

Færd

faint memories bubbling up -- I think I have seen such a movie, but I don't remember.

Anonymous

If you have a time machine, you can probably make it felicitous.

Færd

@snailplane goes to look up what Snails said

fail

@snailplane What are those exactly?

Anonymous

19:14

@Færd Have we met on a Sunday?

Anonymous

On a Sunday is non-referential. It doesn't refer to a specific day.

Anonymous

Earlier today is referential. It does refer to a specific day. Today.

Færd

I see. Even earlier alone is referential too, right?

It refers to a limited extent of time before now.

Anonymous

I'm going to go with yes.

Anonymous

In the relevant sense.

Færd

19:16

Thanks for the explanation!

Anonymous

It could also be interpreted as non-referential, I think, if you were thinking earlier ~~than something~~

Anonymous

Have you come here earlier than this? Now it could refer to any time you've come here in the past, and it seems to combine with the present perfect.

Færd

Could you replace this with a clearer word? Does today work, for example?

Anonymous

Wow, you're here early! It's only five in the morning. Have you ever come here earlier than five in the morning?

Anonymous

@Færd I don't think today would work.

Færd

19:21

Still earlier suggest the limitation of the time frame, doesn't it?

Anonymous

Let me make up an explanation, which may or may not be very good :-)

Anonymous

The present perfect is used to describe a present state.

Anonymous

That present state may be the result of, for example, having one or more experiences in the past. (experiential perfect)

Anonymous

[Coming here earlier than five in the morning] is an event that you can have in your past one or more times.

Anonymous

It does have some temporal limitations, as you point out.

Anonymous

19:24

But the event as a whole isn't set on a specific day.

Anonymous

If I try to combine the present perfect with a referential past time adjunct like yesterday:

Anonymous

> Have you come here yesterday?

Færd

@snailplane I meant earlier doesn't work for an unlimitedly long time ago, even in that example. I may be wrong though.

Anonymous

I can't interpret yesterday as the time the event took place. My mind wants to interpret it as locating the present state in the past, which doesn't work.

Anonymous

@Færd Hmm?

Anonymous

19:27

I don't follow. It seems like it could be fifty years in the past :-)

Færd

3 in the morning can be earlier than 5 in the morning, but 100 years ago can't be earlier than 5 in the morning.

Anonymous

I wish my brain worked better right now. I am rather dizzy :-(

Anonymous

I know I can explain this better.

Anonymous

@Færd 100 years ago can't be earlier than 5 in the morning. That doesn't make sense.

Anonymous

But the earlier in my example is not being used that way.

Anonymous

19:29

It's only comparing within a 24-hour time frame, and that 24-hour time frame is on an unspecified day.

Færd

@snailplane Don't exert yourself please. We can discuss it later.

Anonymous

And it doesn't matter if that day was 100 years ago or not.

Færd

@snailplane Ah, I see!

Perfect example. It clicked into place now.

Anonymous

Oh, good :-)

Damkerng T.

I suppose that earlier carries the sense of "before (now)".

Anonymous

19:31

Earlier has multiple senses.

Damkerng T.

I thought it could be okay with today in a question with the present perfect. But it seems not to be the case.

I suppose that Have we met previously today? wouldn't work, either, then.

Which left me with only Have we met today?

Anonymous

I'm going to come back in a bit with a fresh brain slate. Brain slate, yes.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane It's not an urgent matter. :-) I'm putting my thoughts out here before I may forget.

And Have me met this morning? is only okay for some speakers, probably who are in the minority.

Færd

@DamkerngT. If we go by the rule that says referential past time adjuncts don't usually work with the present perfect, then probably that shouldn't work either.

Damkerng T.

@Færd Some words like now and today in English are quite tricky, AFAICT.

Anonymous

19:38

@Færd Sitting at my computer typing isn't really difficult for me right now, but I sort of lost track of what I was thinking partway through my explanation, so I'm not sure what I said made any sense :-)

Anonymous

Pretty sure I was going to work in something about the internal and external temporal structure of events.

Anonymous

But I got confused before I got there :-)

Færd

No problem. It'll hopefully come back to you!

@DamkerngT. Yeah. I'd be surprised to learn that Have we met today? is not correct.

Damkerng T.

> “Oh, must'a been about last month.” “Have you seen me after that?” “Oh, yeah.” “Where?” “Geez. Saw you at the party.” “Have we met today?” “Oh yeah.”

> --The Changing Brain: Alzheimer's Disease and Advances in Neuroscience

It's an unlikely utterance, but neither is Did we met today?, I suppose.

(Looks like I just violated English grammar in the sentence above. :-)

Færd

It's a cool violation. Plays with different levels of negation.

goo.gl/vblV6z

Anonymous

19:47

@DamkerngT. Here, meet is a repeatable event...

Færd

So using referential adjuncts with repeatable events makes allowance for using the perfect?

I'm not sure what you mean by repeatable. Have we met? can always be answered with Yes, three times.

Anonymous

Meet has another sense in which it refers to a first meeting.

Færd

Ah, yes.

Anonymous

Okay, let me try again.

Anonymous

The present perfect includes the present, right?

Færd

19:52

fastens seat belt

Anonymous

It's a statement about the present state.

Færd

True.

Anonymous

Again, with the experiential perfect, that is the state resulting from having one or more experiences in the past.

Anonymous

It continues into the present and is the current state now.

Færd

Yes.

Anonymous

19:53

If you combine the perfect with a referential past time adjunct,

Anonymous

and you're discussing a single event, then you're placing that event in the past,

Anonymous

and you aren't really talking about the present, so it's strange.

Anonymous

I think.

Færd

So Have we met before, today? should be strange.

(Supposing meet means meet for the first time)

Anonymous

But there you're clearly concerned with the present state

Anonymous

19:56

Wait, I don't understand anymore now that you put a comma in.

Anonymous

What does it mean with a comma?

Færd

It means earlier today.

The comma represents a pause.

Anonymous

Oh, so I think I correctly understand what you're trying to write.

Anonymous

But that sentence is impossible.

Færd

Good. I just wanted to make sure I was following.

Cardinal

19:59

@snailplane That was my best option. I mean I don't have access to many books in Iran, especially in the very small town that I live. We have a very limited range of choices here. I think there might be a more wide range of books in the big cities. What do you think @Færd?

Færd

@Cardinal What book are you talking about?

Anonymous

@Cardinal Don't worry :-)

Cardinal

@Færd Cambridge Advanced Grammar In Use

However, I think that I need to put a lot of time to add the book's nuances in my active English.

Anonymous

Darn, I lost my train of thought again :-)

Cardinal

@snailplane Thanks

@snailplane Sorry for interrupting your discussion with @Færd.

Færd

20:04

@snailplane I fail to understand why a single event in the past cannot have a present effect (read presence), and why multiple occurrences of an event in a referential past can have a present effect. But I can memorize it all as a rule, if it's indeed attested.

@Cardinal I wanted to read that book, but couldn't.

Cardinal

@Færd What do you mean that you couldn't read the book?

Færd

I can't study when I'm not having fun. It seemed lifeless to me.

I don't mean to put you off studying it at all, though.

Cardinal

@Færd I perused all the 100 unites; Actually, I finished the book almost 6 weeks ago.

It was the first book that I was reading about the Grammar.

Færd

If you are really advanced, you may want to read Michael Swan's Practical English Usage.

Cardinal

@Færd I have checked that book. I think it fits a person who is very advanced English speaker/writer; He/She can easily check a specific issue, thanks to the book structure and format.

I prefer to master CAGIU before going to another book.
I think I forget almost 80 percent of the nuances of the book at the moment.
<It took me almost 10 months to finish the book>

Færd

20:16

Giving this type of advice is hard.

Cardinal

I see, I just wanted to share something

(^_^)

Færd

I know there are people who pull down their income by giving this type of advice, but I'm not sure how meaningful it is.

If you know something works for you, pursue it.

If it's a generally sensible way, of course.

Cardinal

Thank you all, Goodnight

Færd

Me too.

Anonymous

20:35

@Færd Well, a single event in the past can be described in the perfect as a perfect of recent past.

Anonymous

@Færd If you could figure out when all the uses of the perfect are available from first principles, we wouldn't need to give them names and describe them independently :-)

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